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[Ageless Face]

Jade8aby88 wrote...


Maybe they were trying their hardest, Shepard is 'incredibly strong-willed' as Liara states in her own words in ME1.
Maybe the Reapers first chance to actually indoctrinate Shepard were when s/he was unconscious after Harbys laser. Though that doesn't necessarily mean it was the first time they tried, eg: object Rho, the kid on earth, the dreams and even the Reaper code going crazy while Shepard was in the consensus.

 

Still, so was TIM and Saren and Grayson. All of them eventually became indoctrinated, one way or the other. The reapers can take Shepard, and indoctrinate him/her.  In Arrival it doesn't seem they tried have enough to indoctrinate Shepard. Didn't place Shepard near the artifact, gave humans to guard Shepard.  

The Reapers see themselves as all knowing and all powerful, deities basically. So it would be safe to assume that their satisfaction in killing organics doesn't lie in destroying them in the physical sense, but the mental sense too. By indoctrinating Shepard they are striking a massive blow to the galaxies morale...
"We've indoctrinated the best of what you have, you're doomed" kind of thing.

Yet they didn't really succeed to indoctrinate. Or at least indoctrinate effectivly

 
Make more sense now?

Not really .

[Jadebaby]

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...


I thought there were only 3 dream sequences?

I'm going to try looking this up, shame my googling skills suck.

Oh, your right ..It is 3......They still happen after you face the reaper and there forces though.

According to Mr House (thank you btw ), only one of the dreams has to happen after a reaper mission.

- You visit the council after Priority: Mars, which is a Cerberus mission
- Tuchanka is the reaper mission
- You can do scanning/fetch quests or other side missions last before the Cerberus Base iirc, which means it could've been quite a while since your last mission involving reaper forces


I'm still a firm believer that the dreams are infact just dreams, soz.

I wouldn't agree that the dreams are subjective to when you're in Reaper proximity. I would suggest though that the dreams are subjective to when Shepards hope and fear levels are at it's peak.
Hope because the dream would be the indoctrination trying to gain footing by weakening Shepards resolve.
Fear because wherever the is hope, there is a shadow of doubt.
Those three missions that it happens before/after are major plot points within the story.
Mars; (hope) finding out about the crucible.. The ultimate chance in defeating the Reapers...
Priority Tuchanka; (fear) Defeating the Reaper, but then the Reaper talking and trying to solidify Shepard's doubts that they are doomed, no matter what they do.
Cerberus Base; (fear and hope) The final leg of the war, nerves and tension is at its highest, including Shepard's hopes and fears.

[Ageless Face]

llbountyhunter wrote...

the only faster way is to use rapid indoctrination, and that turns you into a gibering animal... the reapers dont want that.

Not nececerally. Dr. Kenson, Saren, Grayson, Ba****a, Shiala, the Cerberus agents on the delerict reaper... Those people on that mission that I don't remember it's name... (the DLC of ME2, the reaper artifact that Shepard brought to the Normandy) Fire something...

[AsheraII]

Baa Baa wrote...

Indoctrination Theory is for people who still have hope in BioWare. It's not a weak minded delusion because it hasn't been disproved yet. Because they want the SPECULATIONS

Sorry, it works more the other way round from my point of view:
I have plenty of faith that Bioware could make an awesome and fitting ending, given enough time. And they got the time they needed to do so in a DLC, though I would've preferred if they had been given the time before launch instead.

The Indoctrination Theory I see as something for people who do NOT have faith in Bioware to make something awesome out of it. Instead, they chose to take the typewriter and dictate their own views to both Bioware and other fans. To me, it does look like a delusion based on speculations, gaps in the plot, and bugs/glitches/oversights/shoddy implementations in the game's design. Yes, there are bugs and glitches in Mass Effect as well. Nothing to be ashamed about, since Mass Effect actually has relatively few of those, but they are there. Every game and every piece of software has those. But I am simply a realist and choose to recognize those things for what they are. I refuse to promote them to "lore" to support some shallow and unfitting piece of fan fiction.

[jijeebo]

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...


I thought there were only 3 dream sequences?

I'm going to try looking this up, shame my googling skills suck.

Oh, your right ..It is 3......They still happen after you face the reaper and there forces though.

According to Mr House (thank you btw ), only one of the dreams has to happen after a reaper mission.

- You visit the council after Priority: Mars, which is a Cerberus mission
- Tuchanka is the reaper mission
- You can do scanning/fetch quests or other side missions last before the Cerberus Base iirc, which means it could've been quite a while since your last mission involving reaper forces


I'm still a firm believer that the dreams are infact just dreams, soz.

No, the first dream doesn't happen after mars.....It happen after palven.
Also, with the third dream it still sticks after a reaper  mission. You don't sleep after it meaning it say in mind till you do.

I'm sure Shepard sleeps more times than we see accross the duration of ME3.

And the first dream is before the turian moon mission, Mr House said and I confirmed it by looking it up.

masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Priority:_Palaven

[llbountyhunter]

HagarIshay wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

the only faster way is to use rapid indoctrination, and that turns you into a gibering animal... the reapers dont want that.

Not nececerally. Dr. Kenson, Saren, Grayson, Ba****a, Shiala, the Cerberus agents on the delerict reaper... Those people on that mission that I don't remember it's name... (the DLC of ME2, the reaper artifact that Shepard brought to the Normandy) Fire something...

? sorry I dont see how this helps you.

[Ageless Face]

llbountyhunter wrote...

because they want him indoctrinated. that how the reapers work.

trun a powerfull leader to your side. subtly.  

they do this again and again. never do they kidnap powerfull leaders. they indoctrinat them.

They could have done it faster and they didn't. Hell, the reaper artifact on Arrival was sure wasn't rapid. Otherwise they will have no use for Shepard.

Did they ever had someone like Shepard to fight with? If they did, do we know for certain they didn't try and kidnaap him/her? I don't think so. Unless they didn't want Shepard indoc, of course.... Or that they are very stupid. I believe the former.

[llbountyhunter]

HagarIshay wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...


Maybe they were trying their hardest, Shepard is 'incredibly strong-willed' as Liara states in her own words in ME1.
Maybe the Reapers first chance to actually indoctrinate Shepard were when s/he was unconscious after Harbys laser. Though that doesn't necessarily mean it was the first time they tried, eg: object Rho, the kid on earth, the dreams and even the Reaper code going crazy while Shepard was in the consensus.

 

Still, so was TIM and Saren and Grayson. All of them eventually became indoctrinated, one way or the other. The reapers can take Shepard, and indoctrinate him/her.  In Arrival it doesn't seem they tried have enough to indoctrinate Shepard. Didn't place Shepard near the artifact, gave humans to guard Shepard.  

The Reapers see themselves as all knowing and all powerful, deities basically. So it would be safe to assume that their satisfaction in killing organics doesn't lie in destroying them in the physical sense, but the mental sense too. By indoctrinating Shepard they are striking a massive blow to the galaxies morale...
"We've indoctrinated the best of what you have, you're doomed" kind of thing.

Yet they didn't really succeed to indoctrinate. Or at least indoctrinate effectivly

 
Make more sense now?

Not really .

your first point helps IT because those people resisted it for a time. shepard as a stonger will so he resisted longer.

the reapers use sublte indotrination thourghout mass effect 3 to weaken shepard. 

they then go all out in the end with IT.

Modifié par llbountyhunter, 16 juin 2012 - 06:32 .

[Jadebaby]

HagarIshay wrote...

Still, so was TIM and Saren and Grayson. All of them eventually became indoctrinated, one way or the other. The reapers can take Shepard, and indoctrinate him/her.  In Arrival it doesn't seem they tried have enough to indoctrinate Shepard. Didn't place Shepard near the artifact, gave humans to guard Shepard.  

TIM and Saren were sleeper agents. This is what the Reapers are trying to do to Shepard. To strike that moral defeat as I spoke about.
Grayson was indoctrinated by TIM, that is irrelevant.

HagarIshay wrote...

The Reapers see themselves as all knowing and all powerful, deities basically. So it would be safe to assume that their satisfaction in killing organics doesn't lie in destroying them in the physical sense, but the mental sense too. By indoctrinating Shepard they are striking a massive blow to the galaxies morale...
"We've indoctrinated the best of what you have, you're doomed" kind of thing.

Yet they didn't really succeed to indoctrinate. Or at least indoctrinate effectivly

But they did just enough to get inside Shepard's head. Whether the dream are indoctrination or not, Shepard is only having them because of the Reapers, that's suspicious in itself. However as IT presents itself, the only way to become indoctrinated in the sense you are talking about is to choose control/synthesis. Or in other words, give in to Reaper logic.



Make more sense now?

Modifié par Jade8aby88, 16 juin 2012 - 06:27 .

[dreman9999]

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...


I thought there were only 3 dream sequences?

I'm going to try looking this up, shame my googling skills suck.

Oh, your right ..It is 3......They still happen after you face the reaper and there forces though.

According to Mr House (thank you btw ), only one of the dreams has to happen after a reaper mission.

- You visit the council after Priority: Mars, which is a Cerberus mission
- Tuchanka is the reaper mission
- You can do scanning/fetch quests or other side missions last before the Cerberus Base iirc, which means it could've been quite a while since your last mission involving reaper forces


I'm still a firm believer that the dreams are infact just dreams, soz.

No, the first dream doesn't happen after mars.....It happen after palven.
Also, with the third dream it still sticks after a reaper  mission. You don't sleep after it meaning it say in mind till you do.

I'm sure Shepard sleeps more times than we see accross the duration of ME3.

And the first dream is before the turian moon mission, Mr House said and I confirmed it by looking it up.

masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Priority:_Palaven

OK then...The first dream still happens after the fall of earth anyway.

[llbountyhunter]

HagarIshay wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

because they want him indoctrinated. that how the reapers work.

trun a powerfull leader to your side. subtly.  

they do this again and again. never do they kidnap powerfull leaders. they indoctrinat them.

They could have done it faster and they didn't. Hell, the reaper artifact on Arrival was sure wasn't rapid. Otherwise they will have no use for Shepard.

Did they ever had someone like Shepard to fight with? If they did, do we know for certain they didn't try and kidnaap him/her? I don't think so. Unless they didn't want Shepard indoc, of course.... Or that they are very stupid. I believe the former.

if you kindapp the leader your tryin to indoctrinate then, how can you use that leader to pacify the populace when its obviouse this is a reaper trapp? 

[Jadebaby]

llbountyhunter wrote...

your inability to make sense of this, has nothing to do with problems in IT.

Let's refrain from this sort of mentality.

[Ageless Face]

llbountyhunter wrote...

HagarIshay wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

the only faster way is to use rapid indoctrination, and that turns you into a gibering animal... the reapers dont want that.

Not nececerally. Dr. Kenson, Saren, Grayson, B(enezi)a, Shiala, the Cerberus agents on the delerict reaper... Those people on that mission that I don't remember it's name... (the DLC of ME2, the reaper artifact that Shepard brought to the Normandy) Fire something...

? sorry I dont see how this helps you.

They were all got indoctrinated, and I don't think it took them months. few Weeks, top. It took the reapers a long time to indoc Shepard, then. They could have done it faster, if they would only take Shepard and indoc her/him. They didn't do it. And add, the reaper artifact on Arrival was also not rapid. If it wasn't, then why not stuck Shep there, or near a similar artifact? Then s/he would be indoc.  

[llbountyhunter]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

your inability to make sense of this, has nothing to do with problems in IT.

Let's refrain from this sort of mentality.

your right...i was out of line...sorry HagerIshay....... 

Modifié par llbountyhunter, 16 juin 2012 - 06:35 .

[dreman9999]

HagarIshay wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

the only faster way is to use rapid indoctrination, and that turns you into a gibering animal... the reapers dont want that.

Not nececerally. Dr. Kenson, Saren, Grayson, Ba****a, Shiala, the Cerberus agents on the delerict reaper... Those people on that mission that I don't remember it's name... (the DLC of ME2, the reaper artifact that Shepard brought to the Normandy) Fire something...

Those are exampls of slow indoctriantion. Saren had on and off contact with Sovergin for near 20 years. Grayson resiste indoctriantion for a week. Banzia took days toe be indoctrianted as well as Shiala. The agent on the dlerict reaper also took days to be indoctriated. As well as DR. Kenson.

[NM_Che56]

"so Long...and hard"

Uh huh huh huh

Modifié par Master Che, 16 juin 2012 - 06:31 .

[SauliusL]

HagarIshay wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

HagarIshay wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

the only faster way is to use rapid indoctrination, and that turns you into a gibering animal... the reapers dont want that.

Not nececerally. Dr. Kenson, Saren, Grayson, B(enezi)a, Shiala, the Cerberus agents on the delerict reaper... Those people on that mission that I don't remember it's name... (the DLC of ME2, the reaper artifact that Shepard brought to the Normandy) Fire something...

? sorry I dont see how this helps you.

They were all got indoctrinated, and I don't think it took them months. few Weeks, top. It took the reapers a long time to indoc Shepard, then. They could have done it faster, if they would only take Shepard and indoc her/him. They didn't do it. And add, the reaper artifact on Arrival was also not rapid. If it wasn't, then why not stuck Shep there, or near a similar artifact? Then s/he would be indoc.  

I am not sure, but Saren spent much more on Sovereign that 2 weeks. Same about Benezia, who admitted she spend too much time close to a reaper.

[jijeebo]

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

I'm sure Shepard sleeps more times than we see accross the duration of ME3.

And the first dream is before the turian moon mission, Mr House said and I confirmed it by looking it up.

masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Priority:_Palaven

OK then...The first dream still happens after the fall of earth anyway.

Which means that the literal "it's actually just a dream" interpretation makes perfect sense... Because all that death and destruction, including that poor wee boy (who represents all the people Shepard couldn't save), is fresh in Shepard mind and he's realising what's at stake now that the reapers are actually here.


See, being a literalist ain't so bad. ;)

[dreman9999]

HagarIshay wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

HagarIshay wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

the only faster way is to use rapid indoctrination, and that turns you into a gibering animal... the reapers dont want that.

Not nececerally. Dr. Kenson, Saren, Grayson, B(enezi)a, Shiala, the Cerberus agents on the delerict reaper... Those people on that mission that I don't remember it's name... (the DLC of ME2, the reaper artifact that Shepard brought to the Normandy) Fire something...

? sorry I dont see how this helps you.

They were all got indoctrinated, and I don't think it took them months. few Weeks, top. It took the reapers a long time to indoc Shepard, then. They could have done it faster, if they would only take Shepard and indoc her/him. They didn't do it. And add, the reaper artifact on Arrival was also not rapid. If it wasn't, then why not stuck Shep there, or near a similar artifact? Then s/he would be indoc.  

It took Saran and TIM years to be indoctriated. And those peopel with in constate range of indoctination feilds. Shepard only has on and off contact.

[llbountyhunter]

HagarIshay wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

HagarIshay wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

the only faster way is to use rapid indoctrination, and that turns you into a gibering animal... the reapers dont want that.

Not nececerally. Dr. Kenson, Saren, Grayson, B(enezi)a, Shiala, the Cerberus agents on the delerict reaper... Those people on that mission that I don't remember it's name... (the DLC of ME2, the reaper artifact that Shepard brought to the Normandy) Fire something...

? sorry I dont see how this helps you.

They were all got indoctrinated, and I don't think it took them months. few Weeks, top. It took the reapers a long time to indoc Shepard, then. They could have done it faster, if they would only take Shepard and indoc her/him. They didn't do it. And add, the reaper artifact on Arrival was also not rapid. If it wasn't, then why not stuck Shep there, or near a similar artifact? Then s/he would be indoc.  

the time its takes to indoctrinate someone varies. there are factors such as. (these arent all of them btw)

how many exposers?
how long are the exposers?
how strong is the persons resitence?

the game makes it quite obviouse that shepard can has both fewer exposers than these people and a stronger will..... hence it takes longer to indoctrinate.

Modifié par llbountyhunter, 16 juin 2012 - 06:34 .

[SauliusL]

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

I'm sure Shepard sleeps more times than we see accross the duration of ME3.

And the first dream is before the turian moon mission, Mr House said and I confirmed it by looking it up.

masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Priority:_Palaven

OK then...The first dream still happens after the fall of earth anyway.

Which means that the literal "it's actually just a dream" interpretation makes perfect sense... Because all that death and destruction, including that poor wee boy (who represents all the people Shepard couldn't save), is fresh in Shepard mind and he's realising what's at stake now that the reapers are actually here.


See, being a literalist ain't so bad. ;)

Ofcourse both interpretations are valid. But that is what makes it possible to speculate, what bioware wanted.
And added that in the codex, which we heard so many times, it's stressed that reapers affect your limbic system, might hint that dreams MIGHT be more than dreams.

[dreman9999]

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

I'm sure Shepard sleeps more times than we see accross the duration of ME3.

And the first dream is before the turian moon mission, Mr House said and I confirmed it by looking it up.

masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Priority:_Palaven

OK then...The first dream still happens after the fall of earth anyway.

Which means that the literal "it's actually just a dream" interpretation makes perfect sense... Because all that death and destruction, including that poor wee boy (who represents all the people Shepard couldn't save), is fresh in Shepard mind and he's realising what's at stake now that the reapers are actually here.


See, being a literalist ain't so bad. ;)

Then where the dreams when everyone else die. Shepard still was near reapers before Mars, so them influecing his dream still sticks. And Shepard still face the reapers forces before the final mission, so it still stick theat the reaper MAYBE INFLUECING HIS DREAM.

[Baa Baa]

Master Che wrote...

"so Long...and hard"

Uh huh huh huh

You win sir

[dreman9999]

llbountyhunter wrote...

HagarIshay wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

because they want him indoctrinated. that how the reapers work.

trun a powerfull leader to your side. subtly.  

they do this again and again. never do they kidnap powerfull leaders. they indoctrinat them.

They could have done it faster and they didn't. Hell, the reaper artifact on Arrival was sure wasn't rapid. Otherwise they will have no use for Shepard.

Did they ever had someone like Shepard to fight with? If they did, do we know for certain they didn't try and kidnaap him/her? I don't think so. Unless they didn't want Shepard indoc, of course.... Or that they are very stupid. I believe the former.

if you kindapp the leader your tryin to indoctrinate then, how can you use that leader to pacify the populace when its obviouse this is a reaper trapp? 

But the reaper were trying to kidnap Shepard. That was ME2.

[SauliusL]

dreman9999 wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

HagarIshay wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

because they want him indoctrinated. that how the reapers work.

trun a powerfull leader to your side. subtly.  

they do this again and again. never do they kidnap powerfull leaders. they indoctrinat them.

They could have done it faster and they didn't. Hell, the reaper artifact on Arrival was sure wasn't rapid. Otherwise they will have no use for Shepard.

Did they ever had someone like Shepard to fight with? If they did, do we know for certain they didn't try and kidnaap him/her? I don't think so. Unless they didn't want Shepard indoc, of course.... Or that they are very stupid. I believe the former.

if you kindapp the leader your tryin to indoctrinate then, how can you use that leader to pacify the populace when its obviouse this is a reaper trapp? 

But the reaper were trying to kidnap Shepard. That was ME2.

He didn't have the galaxy's fleet then. Tactics change Even for super AI