896 réponses à ce sujet

[MegaSovereign]

They hate IT because it means that Bioware intentionally released a game without an actual ending despite us being promised a game with full closure of Shepard's story.

[shodiswe]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Read the OP in a televangelist's voice and you'll realize how ridiculous he sounds. He says IT is a religion, but he sounds like he's telling us that the devil is seducing us into believing the IT.
He sounds like a religious leader. Sorry, but it's true. It completely undermines everything he has to say. Seboist just sounds like a sycophant choir boy in this metaphor.

IT is still built and faith and belief more than something proven. There is no single piece of proof that noone can question. There is no line where the writers wrote. "Shepard is indoctrinated" or "this is a dream, even after you wake up from the dream!" or "this is a dream inside your dream!"...

Since im also dissapointed in the current ending I can relate to the need to reject it and the pain of it would it be all there was to it.. Which atm I think happens to be the case   It's just the simplest solution and most plausible explanation that doesn't requier lofty storytelling and very farfetched theories to prove it, even though it is done without any tangiable proof that can't be questioned.

I choose the most scientific solution to pick a hypothetical theory, Occam's razor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor

Occam's razor (also written as Ockham's razor, Latin lex parsimoniae) is the law of parsimony, economy or succinctness. It is a principle urging one to select from among competing hypotheses that which makes the fewest assumptions and thereby offers the simplest explanation of the effect.


The simplest explanation with the least amount of assumptions would be that the ending sucked and the Bioware team, especialy the people responsible for making the ending thought it would make do and it would finish the job in the allotted time.
There is no proof that it's the right assumption or that it's the "only right" assumption, but given the lesser amount assumptions needed to formulate the hypotheses it's probably more correct than the IT when it commes to explain the ending we got on release.

What will Bioware do in the EC? They will do that which feels good for the team and that which is likely to pacify the largest amount of dissatisfied fans without upsettign more fans, and without loosing face entierly.
They say they wont chagne the ending but they can still add to them and they can diversify them without changing the actual endings as they were but adding more to it to make them different and satisfy consumer feedback. To some degree anyway.

It will be interesting to see what BW does. Whatever they do it will likely have ramifications that they didn't anticipate, especialy if it's true they didn't anticipate the fans reaction to the endings given at release.

I think that will be enough from me in this thread, I got other things to do, but I must say it will be interesting no matter what hapens. If not for the sake of the game but from the socialstuddies point of view and science   It will also be a nice example for marketing management classes on how and how not to manage customer relations.

[pikey1969]

Hardly stated eloquently but I gotta say, the OP has scratched an itch I've had watching these boards for a very long time.

The endings are just a giant case of swing and a miss, there's no deeper interpretation drenched in subtle interconneted clues and mythos to be found here.

Sorry guys/gals, the endings sucked. No amount of meticulate analysis and crazy levels of 
reinterpretations are going to change that.

And on a side note, when the developers talk about the Indoctrination theorists in hindsight, they're not gonna refer to this fan reaction as a sign of massive and desperate breakdown caused by their ineptidude, they're gonna refer to it as a sign of 'passion and dedication'. 

It was fun to watch for a while, but now I am wondering why I still check back here very now and then even after the peak of the debacle.

Oh right, Bioware's still trying to salvage the situation with that 'DLC' aren't they? 

If anyone has a different opinion well... as Bioware loves to tell its fans..

End of Line

[Dragonblaze420]

lol the fact of the matter is its game you payed 60 bucks for ... believe me its not the end of the world if you feel the ending IT. or lb or what ever get over it and enjoy multi player or pick up another game. at the end of the day its just a video game and no matter how heated you debating about the vaildity of opinions. is gonna change anything so stop crying and saying im right and your wrong and find other more productive things to focus your me3 ending raging.

[Artaire]

Sheeple will be sheeple, can't read between the lines or think outside the box and rage, doesn't make sense so bioware suck balls blahblahblah. Then call everyone else weak minded and delusional, when there are those who have thought outside the box and worked their asses off to actually come up with a plausable theory WITH supporting evidence!

Like hmm...one of the main themes running through mass effect is indoctrination. What better way to do it then like the way it has been done. The destroy option is the only 'bad' option proposed by the catalyst who for some weird reasons (Not gonna think outside of the box though) looks EXACTLY like the child from your dreams who when seen in the 'real' world is sat next to Danger, Warning and Caution signs.

Ofcourse this is just a coincidence. Nothing more nothing less. Just randomly put in there for no reason by Bioware cause they felt like it, just like they put in Harbingers reaper noise and dark oily telendrils whenever TIM's argument is put forward in the TIM/Anderson sequence. Then TIM somehow makes you shoot Anderson, and then oh look your bleeding from the exact same spot where you shot him. And then Bioware ZOOOOOOOOMS in to make sure you are aware that you noticed this crazyness. How is that possible? Oh well I don't understand it so ill just dismiss that one and brush it under the carpet...

Sure, all just coincidences and bad scripting and meaningless (yet impeccable) attention to detail right?

Wrong

And for the record, Yes I do think the Ending SUCKED but I appreciate what Bioware tried to do, but they failed.

Modifié par Artaire, 16 juin 2012 - 07:56 .

[T41rdEye]

Weak minded? It must take a strong mind to say LULZBIOWARELAZYBADWRITING

[Atakuma]

I don't get the hate. Let them believe whatever nonsense they want.

[shodiswe]

Foulpancake wrote...

"IT is dumb and everyone who believes it is dumb and people who support it are dumb and not agreeing with me is dumb and not seeing i'm obviously always correct is dumb"

Seriously are listening to yourself? Or is that all you can hear is the glory of your awesomeness? Are you a rocket scientist brain surgeon? Wait i think you forgot fries with that fat lady's burger, go get her some fries

I think most people here can agree you havn't proven anything with that comment, except maybe the quality level of your own debating skills. I would call it Trolling, you certainly havn't added anything meaningful to the debate.

[shodiswe]

Me1mN0t wrote...

Weak minded? It must take a strong mind to say LULZBIOWARELAZYBADWRITING

Unfortunately the IT people don't call it lazy writing, they want to belive Bioware hid the true ending in a genious way that takes months for the "smartes people on earth" to reinvent and superimpose on the anomalies found throughout the game to disprove the theory of lazy writing.

This is at the core of the falacy of IT yet it keeps pestering every thread on this board for months... Least that's what it feels liek which eventualy made me respond to this thread..  Iwas hoping it woudl die away by itself.. but it's taken far longer than I expected.

I found the theory fun but it's only fun as an oddity, it looses it's charm when it gets bumped and incerted in to new threads for months.

I need a IT filter  

[phat0817]

I love for IT to be true...but bottom line is indoc theory is one of the greatest fan fiction's out there...that Bioware could never come up with such ending in there wildest dreams instead we got.... well we all know what we got...

Modifié par phat0817, 16 juin 2012 - 08:16 .

[garrusfan1]

Artaire wrote...

Sheeple will be sheeple, can't read between the lines or think outside the box and rage, doesn't make sense so bioware suck balls blahblahblah. Then call everyone else weak minded and delusional, when there are those who have thought outside the box and worked their asses off to actually come up with a plausable theory WITH supporting evidence!

Like hmm...one of the main themes running through mass effect is indoctrination. What better way to do it then like the way it has been done. The destroy option is the only 'bad' option proposed by the catalyst who for some weird reasons (Not gonna think outside of the box though) looks EXACTLY like the child from your dreams who when seen in the 'real' world is sat next to Danger, Warning and Caution signs.

Ofcourse this is just a coincidence. Nothing more nothing less. Just randomly put in there for no reason by Bioware cause they felt like it, just like they put in Harbingers reaper noise and dark oily telendrils whenever TIM's argument is put forward in the TIM/Anderson sequence. Then TIM somehow makes you shoot Anderson, and then oh look your bleeding from the exact same spot where you shot him. And then Bioware ZOOOOOOOOMS in to make sure you are aware that you noticed this crazyness. How is that possible? Oh well I don't understand it so ill just dismiss that one and brush it under the carpet...






Well said








Sure, all just coincidences and bad scripting and meaningless (yet impeccable) attention to detail right?

Wrong

And for the record, Yes I do think the Ending SUCKED but I appreciate what Bioware tried to do, but they failed.

[garrusfan1]

TROLL THREAD

[FirstBlood XL]

Ok... couldn't read through 30+ pages of arguments... but just in case this hasn't been pointed out in this particular thread:

Indoc being featured in the ending was IN FACT planned, all the way up to basically the original release date. Then BW realized they didn't have the talent/time to pull it off, so they switched to some half-baked BS ending... leaving many HINTS of IT throughout the game.

The entire trilogy is surrounded with the theme of Indoctrination... people using it, along with the hints/facts (most likely) accidentally left in the game are not "stupid". Dare I say, if you can't add 2+2 or draw a line of logic from one point to another, you may be the "stupid" party.

The list of accidental hints is long and has been discussed ad nauseum, so I won't bother getting into it again.

For the record... NO, I do not believe IT theory was what BW meant to be the 'ending' of the final product. But I DO believe (as it is a FACT) that the Indoctrination of Shep was SUPPOSED to play a larger role in the ending, and BW, in a sloppy/talentless attempt to reconfigure the ending, left too many breadcrumbs to really ignore.

TL;DR version: The ending was a botched p.os. Indoc was supposed to featured, was removed at the last minute and many of its hints/signs were accidentally left in, making a p.os. ending an even bigger, steamier, messier p.o.s.

I can't blame people for holding onto the IT Theory as cannon... it takes a completely idiotic, rushed, vague, painfully contrived ending and nearly instantly turns it into a smartly original twist that uses information gathered throughout all three games to turn video game/cinematic conventions on their heads. Unfortunately, I don't think BW has the brains/balls to stick with it, and I wouldn't hold my breath for the EC to 'prove' the IT theory.

[shodiswe]

garrusfan1 wrote...

Artaire wrote...

Sheeple will be sheeple, can't read between the lines or think outside the box and rage, doesn't make sense so bioware suck balls blahblahblah. Then call everyone else weak minded and delusional, when there are those who have thought outside the box and worked their asses off to actually come up with a plausable theory WITH supporting evidence!

Like hmm...one of the main themes running through mass effect is indoctrination. What better way to do it then like the way it has been done. The destroy option is the only 'bad' option proposed by the catalyst who for some weird reasons (Not gonna think outside of the box though) looks EXACTLY like the child from your dreams who when seen in the 'real' world is sat next to Danger, Warning and Caution signs.

Ofcourse this is just a coincidence. Nothing more nothing less. Just randomly put in there for no reason by Bioware cause they felt like it, just like they put in Harbingers reaper noise and dark oily telendrils whenever TIM's argument is put forward in the TIM/Anderson sequence. Then TIM somehow makes you shoot Anderson, and then oh look your bleeding from the exact same spot where you shot him. And then Bioware ZOOOOOOOOMS in to make sure you are aware that you noticed this crazyness. How is that possible? Oh well I don't understand it so ill just dismiss that one and brush it under the carpet...






Well said








Sure, all just coincidences and bad scripting and meaningless (yet impeccable) attention to detail right?

Wrong

And for the record, Yes I do think the Ending SUCKED but I appreciate what Bioware tried to do, but they failed.

Shepards gunshot wound is the gunshot wound caused by the marauder infront of the beam before getting beamed up.. There is no way to avoid that first shot.... AKA Marauder Sheilds.
I see nothing mysterious about shepards wound, and since shepards armor is inoperable there is no automated system to stop the bleading with micro-medigel injections. IT or not the ending is horrible in it's current state.

Modifié par shodiswe, 16 juin 2012 - 08:32 .

[thefallen2far]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

The most pathetically astonishing contribution that this community has granted to the Internet is one of the most detestable gathering of unrelated ideas, speculations, non sequiturs, fallacies, optimistic guesses, and genuine idiocies ever assembled among humankind. It is the most vile, repugant denial of apparent truth, being, of course, the ending of the Mass Effect series, which is (quite apparently) meant to be taken at a literal, face value. Therefore I ask, I demand, that each person reevaluate his interpretation of the ending. Do so long, and hard. Finally, realize the delusion of your ways and the fallacy of the Indoctrination Delusion and reject is as it is and as it always has been--the fan fiction of a mentally disturbed 10 year old child which has reached the very levels of religion. It is delusion. It is a lie.

I'm bored, so I'm going to feed the troll.

1. First sentence is you using a thesarus to say 'you don't like it." I get that you don't like it, you're limited that way.

2. Second sentence, more of he first. You just go off on how you don't like it. I understand, you think that you're being objective, but you're too ensconsed in your perception that you think it's fact. Kinda like religion.... we'll get to that later.

3. The 3rd sentence is more refective to the audience. That they would come to the same conclusion as you with you providing no substance to defend your claim. Basically it's saying to reflect on your own opinion assuming either your truth is "the truth" like religious people or asking the to truely reflect for a solid arguement that you don't support with facts.

4. You go on to insult the theory as if everyone will come to your belief system and insinuate that religion is a bad thing... indicating a slight petulant behavior. Which is ironically very similar to religious fanatics. All and all, you reveal a slight sense of insecurity in your own stance and hold such weight in what you're insecure about, you lash out at those who oppose your thinking.

5. You make two curious statements about it being a lie and a delusion. I guess you failed to realize it was fiction, so of course it's a lie and a delusion.  The entire universe created is a lie and delusional. Also because of the open nature of the ending and the fervorent avoidance of the subject by TPTB, they want that to be part of a person's seculation. What comes from it, though is a question of your sensitivity for those who disagree with you. It's as if someone close to you rejected a conclusion you came to, so you are using this as justification for assaulting another opinion that differs from yours... it's likely to be religious in nature... perhaps a friend is getting married or something...whatever. I understand your frustration, I hope you learn to deal with it though. It can be very dangerous for you.

Modifié par thefallen2far, 16 juin 2012 - 10:08 .

[Liber320]

You seem to have forgotten that a fair amount of IT supporters never believed that it was intended by Bioware, but we think it would be a good, and interesting, way to fix the monumental mess that was the ending

Modifié par Liber320, 16 juin 2012 - 08:49 .

[Jadebaby]

shodiswe wrote...

Me1mN0t wrote...

Weak minded? It must take a strong mind to say LULZBIOWARELAZYBADWRITING

Unfortunately the IT people don't call it lazy writing, they want to belive Bioware hid the true ending in a genious way that takes months for the "smartes people on earth" to reinvent and superimpose on the anomalies found throughout the game to disprove the theory of lazy writing. 

That's varies entirely from person to person. For you to make such a generalization makes you look as silly as the ones calling IT "the one and only truth".

Case and point.

Liber320 wrote...

You seem to have forgotten that a fair amount of IT supporters never believed that it was intended by Bioware, but we think it would be a good, and interesting, way to fix the monumental mess that was the ending

[zambot]

Liber320 wrote...

You seem to have forgotten that a fair amount of IT supporters never believed that it was intended by Bioware, but we think it would be a good, and interesting, way to fix the monumental mess that was the ending

If those supporters were the dominant force behind IT, I probably wouldn't mind it, and might even like it.

[Jadebaby]

zambot wrote...

Liber320 wrote...

You seem to have forgotten that a fair amount of IT supporters never believed that it was intended by Bioware, but we think it would be a good, and interesting, way to fix the monumental mess that was the ending

If those supporters were the dominant force behind IT, I probably wouldn't mind it, and might even like it.

The same way you should never judge a book by it's cover, you should never like/dislike something because of it's fanbase.

[Catamantaloedis]

It's somewhat relieving to know how simple minded and easily amenable most humans are, if BSN may be seen as a microcosm of the greater human race. Surely, I can use this experience of the IT for my own benefit in the future. I expect great results, if humans are misled as easily as this.

[Baa Baa]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

It's somewhat relieving to know how simple minded and easily amenable most humans are, if BSN may be seen as a microcosm of the greater human race. Surely, I can use this experience of the IT for my own benefit in the future. I expect great results, if humans are misled as easily as this.

You're a douche.

[RADIUMEYEZ]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

It's somewhat relieving to know how simple minded and easily amenable most humans are, if BSN may be seen as a microcosm of the greater human race. Surely, I can use this experience of the IT for my own benefit in the future. I expect great results, if humans are misled as easily as this.

Do you really have nothing better to do with your life other than come on here to harass and insult people?

[Baa Baa]

RADIUMEYEZ wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

It's somewhat relieving to know how simple minded and easily amenable most humans are, if BSN may be seen as a microcosm of the greater human race. Surely, I can use this experience of the IT for my own benefit in the future. I expect great results, if humans are misled as easily as this.

Do you really have nothing better to do with your life other than come on here to harass and insult people?

[Catamantaloedis]

Baa Baa wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

It's somewhat relieving to know how simple minded and easily amenable most humans are, if BSN may be seen as a microcosm of the greater human race. Surely, I can use this experience of the IT for my own benefit in the future. I expect great results, if humans are misled as easily as this.

You're a douche.

Now, now. No, need for personal insults.

[shodiswe]

FirstBlood XL wrote...

Ok... couldn't read through 30+ pages of arguments... but just in case this hasn't been pointed out in this particular thread:

Indoc being featured in the ending was IN FACT planned, all the way up to basically the original release date. Then BW realized they didn't have the talent/time to pull it off, so they switched to some half-baked BS ending... leaving many HINTS of IT throughout the game.

The entire trilogy is surrounded with the theme of Indoctrination... people using it, along with the hints/facts (most likely) accidentally left in the game are not "stupid". Dare I say, if you can't add 2+2 or draw a line of logic from one point to another, you may be the "stupid" party.

The list of accidental hints is long and has been discussed ad nauseum, so I won't bother getting into it again.

For the record... NO, I do not believe IT theory was what BW meant to be the 'ending' of the final product. But I DO believe (as it is a FACT) that the Indoctrination of Shep was SUPPOSED to play a larger role in the ending, and BW, in a sloppy/talentless attempt to reconfigure the ending, left too many breadcrumbs to really ignore.

TL;DR version: The ending was a botched p.os. Indoc was supposed to featured, was removed at the last minute and many of its hints/signs were accidentally left in, making a p.os. ending an even bigger, steamier, messier p.o.s.

I can't blame people for holding onto the IT Theory as cannon... it takes a completely idiotic, rushed, vague, painfully contrived ending and nearly instantly turns it into a smartly original twist that uses information gathered throughout all three games to turn video game/cinematic conventions on their heads. Unfortunately, I don't think BW has the brains/balls to stick with it, and I wouldn't hold my breath for the EC to 'prove' the IT theory.

You speak as if Bioware has admitted that they changed the ending let during development and as if it is a known fact. Yet no such statments or proofs exist.
The logic used to add 2 and 2 in IT goes against all logical and scientific methods of reconstructiong an event or trying to understands whats hapening. Instead of looking for the theory with the least amount of "assumptions" AKA Occam's razor  IT on the other hand is a theory that is built on the idea that the greatest amount of "assumptions" and guess work yields the most interesting and therefor best theory. The more unknown anomalies and assumptions the better.
That is the kind of reasoning that used to drive witchhunts during the darkages and the inquisition.

Non-scientific hogwash created to enthral the audience with lots of "SPACE MAGIC  " that way the theory seems more entertaining than the abbysal horror of the more likely theories that requiers less assumptions.

IT is a story that works around a campfire when people are telling ghost stories but it has too many "assumptions" to be the most likely candidate to explain the ending. And as stated by FirstBlood XL "But I DO believe (as it is a FACT)" Beliefs became facts and beliefs are what people who have a problem with IT are asked to disprove. Constucts out of assumptions with next to no basis what so ever. There are no confirmations or sources that tells us that shepard was indeed indoctrinated, and that it was supposed to play a larger role in the game.
There have been no Biware conformations or statements to indicate this. Therefor it's an assumption that was turned into a fact and now proven to be an unknown.
Claiming that people are stupid and unable to use simple logic to add 2 + 2 when youre infact adding (unconfirmed assumption + more unconfirmed assumptions) = truth., lets put it this way, it doesn't help you make your case.

If the IT would have been a scientific essay then it would have been the laughing stock of the scientific world, a good example of psudo science.

It is however a piece of fan fiction that deserves better treatment than that, but some people have grown over zealous and almost religious on the topic and started name calling people for presenting theories or fanfiction that doesn't conform with IT.

IT isn't infallible, it isn't logical and it certainly doesn't follow any scientific model on how to construct a theory to explain an event. IT uses far more assumptions than needed and therefore fails as the one and only truth. It's on par with the Catalysts reasoning which was horrendrous with all it's absolutes.

This is why im comparing it with jehovas witnesses, people may not see themselves as religious but they are justifying their thory, and prolififying it in the same way as Jehoas would.. It's belief and faith not logic and trying to explain and justify the IT as a logical derivative is doomed to failure, simply because beliefs and faith is relabled as FACTS, assumptions, relabeled as FACTS. It's ok to belive in it but stop saying it's the one and only truth and pretend you got a mountain of proof.. you got a mountain of assumptions and they are what's pulling the theory down in the first place.