896 réponses à ce sujet

[Goaliebot]

OP is right, less IT and more human-alien and human-robot lovin'!!!

Humanity needs to focus on improving our weak species through breeding with superior alien races.

[wsandista]

Goaliebot wrote...

OP is right, less IT and more human-alien and human-robot lovin'!!!

Humanity needs to focus on improving our weak species through breeding with superior alien races.

Legion is the canon LI!

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

[Catamantaloedis]

wsandista wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

garrusfan1 wrote...

Hey OP the post you got supposedly banned for you never answered my question which alien turned you down that made you against human and alien relationships

I didnt answer it then because I am a trolling moron.

Fixed for truth.

This becomes even more hilarious and outrageous everytime you do it! Bravo sir! 

That isn't a denial, so I will assume that you are finally admitting you are in fact a troll! Grātulātiō!

You know there is absolutely no reason to use macrons, except if you barely know Latin, right? 

[wsandista]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

garrusfan1 wrote...

Hey OP the post you got supposedly banned for you never answered my question which alien turned you down that made you against human and alien relationships

I didnt answer it then because I am a trolling moron.

Fixed for truth.

This becomes even more hilarious and outrageous everytime you do it! Bravo sir! 

That isn't a denial, so I will assume that you are finally admitting you are in fact a troll! Grātulātiō!

You know there is absolutely no reason to use macrons, except if you barely know Latin, right? 

I happen to like macrons.

Mordin would use them.

http://t3.gstatic.co...xiNxXoSfANrKvnb

You still haven't denied that you're a troll. It is now a fact.

[AsheraII]

RADIUMEYEZ wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

Baa Baa wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

It's somewhat relieving to know how simple minded and easily amenable most humans are, if BSN may be seen as a microcosm of the greater human race. Surely, I can use this experience of the IT for my own benefit in the future. I expect great results, if humans are misled as easily as this.

You're a douche.

Now, now. No, need for personal insults.

You just insulted a majority of the people on BSN and you're complaining cause someone spoke a fact about you?

There isn't such a thing as a majority. There is only the majority. If there were multiple majorities, how could any one of them be a majority if there was another majority.

[OneWithTheAssassins]

garrusfan1 wrote...

OneWithTheAssassins wrote...

Maybe he's missing a ball. That would most likely explain his extremist thought process. Now who else in earth's history suffered from the same joke from god, had ideas that put down everyone on earth except a very select few people and everyone else thought he came off as a raving nutjob?

Who are you talking about in real life

I thought it would be obvious, Adolf.

[BatmanTurian]

shodiswe wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Read the OP in a televangelist's voice and you'll realize how ridiculous he sounds. He says IT is a religion, but he sounds like he's telling us that the devil is seducing us into believing the IT.
He sounds like a religious leader. Sorry, but it's true. It completely undermines everything he has to say. Seboist just sounds like a sycophant choir boy in this metaphor.

IT is still built and faith and belief more than something proven. There is no single piece of proof that noone can question. There is no line where the writers wrote. "Shepard is indoctrinated" or "this is a dream, even after you wake up from the dream!" or "this is a dream inside your dream!"...

Since im also dissapointed in the current ending I can relate to the need to reject it and the pain of it would it be all there was to it.. Which atm I think happens to be the case   It's just the simplest solution and most plausible explanation that doesn't requier lofty storytelling and very farfetched theories to prove it, even though it is done without any tangiable proof that can't be questioned.

I choose the most scientific solution to pick a hypothetical theory, Occam's razor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor

Occam's razor (also written as Ockham's razor, Latin lex parsimoniae) is the law of parsimony, economy or succinctness. It is a principle urging one to select from among competing hypotheses that which makes the fewest assumptions and thereby offers the simplest explanation of the effect.


The simplest explanation with the least amount of assumptions would be that the ending sucked and the Bioware team, especialy the people responsible for making the ending thought it would make do and it would finish the job in the allotted time.
There is no proof that it's the right assumption or that it's the "only right" assumption, but given the lesser amount assumptions needed to formulate the hypotheses it's probably more correct than the IT when it commes to explain the ending we got on release.

What will Bioware do in the EC? They will do that which feels good for the team and that which is likely to pacify the largest amount of dissatisfied fans without upsettign more fans, and without loosing face entierly.
They say they wont chagne the ending but they can still add to them and they can diversify them without changing the actual endings as they were but adding more to it to make them different and satisfy consumer feedback. To some degree anyway.

It will be interesting to see what BW does. Whatever they do it will likely have ramifications that they didn't anticipate, especialy if it's true they didn't anticipate the fans reaction to the endings given at release.

I think that will be enough from me in this thread, I got other things to do, but I must say it will be interesting no matter what hapens. If not for the sake of the game but from the socialstuddies point of view and science   It will also be a nice example for marketing management classes on how and how not to manage customer relations.

Occam's Razor can't be used on literary interpretations because of hidden meanings. If you're trying to use it on Literary interpretations, you're using it wrong. It's for scientific and philisophical theories. Nice try though, sport.

[AsheraII]

malakim2099 wrote...

So, just out of curiosity...

Do anti-ITers hate the IT so vehemently because it implies that Bioware knew what they were doing? Do they view pro-ITers as "apologists" for the ending so the pro-ITers deserve nothing but scorn? The sheer level of hostility is a bit curious to me.

I like the IT... but I absolutely despise the ending as it stands. At least, I like the IT that involves you gradually being indoctrinated over the course of ME3 (and ME2 with Arrival) with the final run to the beam and afterwards being a dream sequence/indoctrination vision. Still doesn't excuse the fact that, IT or not, the game was released unfinished.

If they make sense of things in the EC, then it's good. If not, then we part ways. I am patient in that regard.

No. I hate IT by now because:
1) It implies Bioware did NOT know what they were doing, and the IT-fans supposedly know better than Bioware themselves.
2) IT is actually not an ending at all either, but basically opens up all possibilities again after what was supposed to be the ending, to require a completely new ending.
3) IT feels like a very cheap rip off from The Matrix 3, which was a lousy and far-fetched movie anyway when compared to the first one.
4) Stephen King is one of very few authors EVER to pull off a story with the main character waking up from a bad dream on the last page, leaving everything open whether the happenings were real or not and open for a sequel (which never happened and won't ever happen) without turning the story into a lousy story.
5) IT is based on assumption, game glitches, drawing connections between unrelated pieces of knowledge, disregarding facts directing elsewhere, and denies other potential.
6) IT has been repeated so often, over and over, that I grew REALLY tired of that nonsense. It's nice and funny the first time, but it's old news by now. It's more tiresome by now than opening a youtube and hearing "We're no strangers to love. You know the rules, and so do I". And yes, by all means, you just did get rickrolled.

[wsandista]

AsheraII wrote...


4) Stephen King is one of very few authors EVER to pull off a story with the main character waking up from a bad dream on the last page, leaving everything open whether the happenings were real or not and open for a sequel (which never happened and won't ever happen) without turning the story into a lousy story.

Which one was that?

[AsheraII]

BatmanTurian wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Read the OP in a televangelist's voice and you'll realize how ridiculous he sounds. He says IT is a religion, but he sounds like he's telling us that the devil is seducing us into believing the IT.
He sounds like a religious leader. Sorry, but it's true. It completely undermines everything he has to say. Seboist just sounds like a sycophant choir boy in this metaphor.

IT is still built and faith and belief more than something proven. There is no single piece of proof that noone can question. There is no line where the writers wrote. "Shepard is indoctrinated" or "this is a dream, even after you wake up from the dream!" or "this is a dream inside your dream!"...

Since im also dissapointed in the current ending I can relate to the need to reject it and the pain of it would it be all there was to it.. Which atm I think happens to be the case   It's just the simplest solution and most plausible explanation that doesn't requier lofty storytelling and very farfetched theories to prove it, even though it is done without any tangiable proof that can't be questioned.

I choose the most scientific solution to pick a hypothetical theory, Occam's razor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor

Occam's razor (also written as Ockham's razor, Latin lex parsimoniae) is the law of parsimony, economy or succinctness. It is a principle urging one to select from among competing hypotheses that which makes the fewest assumptions and thereby offers the simplest explanation of the effect.


The simplest explanation with the least amount of assumptions would be that the ending sucked and the Bioware team, especialy the people responsible for making the ending thought it would make do and it would finish the job in the allotted time.
There is no proof that it's the right assumption or that it's the "only right" assumption, but given the lesser amount assumptions needed to formulate the hypotheses it's probably more correct than the IT when it commes to explain the ending we got on release.

What will Bioware do in the EC? They will do that which feels good for the team and that which is likely to pacify the largest amount of dissatisfied fans without upsettign more fans, and without loosing face entierly.
They say they wont chagne the ending but they can still add to them and they can diversify them without changing the actual endings as they were but adding more to it to make them different and satisfy consumer feedback. To some degree anyway.

It will be interesting to see what BW does. Whatever they do it will likely have ramifications that they didn't anticipate, especialy if it's true they didn't anticipate the fans reaction to the endings given at release.

I think that will be enough from me in this thread, I got other things to do, but I must say it will be interesting no matter what hapens. If not for the sake of the game but from the socialstuddies point of view and science   It will also be a nice example for marketing management classes on how and how not to manage customer relations.

Occam's Razor can't be used on literary interpretations because of hidden meanings. If you're trying to use it on Literary interpretations, you're using it wrong. It's for scientific and philisophical theories. Nice try though, sport.

This whole discussion definitely has both scientific (look logically at the facts presented within the codex) and philosophical (do you believe in the IT or not) roots, meaning Occam's Razor is applicable here. It is NOT applicable to the story as a whole, but can be applied to some of its segments. We can use it to go through the knowledge we have of indoctrination (a scientific subject within the virtual reality of the story) and whether Shepard was subject to it (factual proof within the virtual reality of the story).

[AsheraII]

wsandista wrote...

AsheraII wrote...


4) Stephen King is one of very few authors EVER to pull off a story with the main character waking up from a bad dream on the last page, leaving everything open whether the happenings were real or not and open for a sequel (which never happened and won't ever happen) without turning the story into a lousy story.

Which one was that?

One of the early prints of The Mist

[BatmanTurian]

AsheraII wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Read the OP in a televangelist's voice and you'll realize how ridiculous he sounds. He says IT is a religion, but he sounds like he's telling us that the devil is seducing us into believing the IT.
He sounds like a religious leader. Sorry, but it's true. It completely undermines everything he has to say. Seboist just sounds like a sycophant choir boy in this metaphor.

IT is still built and faith and belief more than something proven. There is no single piece of proof that noone can question. There is no line where the writers wrote. "Shepard is indoctrinated" or "this is a dream, even after you wake up from the dream!" or "this is a dream inside your dream!"...

Since im also dissapointed in the current ending I can relate to the need to reject it and the pain of it would it be all there was to it.. Which atm I think happens to be the case   It's just the simplest solution and most plausible explanation that doesn't requier lofty storytelling and very farfetched theories to prove it, even though it is done without any tangiable proof that can't be questioned.

I choose the most scientific solution to pick a hypothetical theory, Occam's razor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor

Occam's razor (also written as Ockham's razor, Latin lex parsimoniae) is the law of parsimony, economy or succinctness. It is a principle urging one to select from among competing hypotheses that which makes the fewest assumptions and thereby offers the simplest explanation of the effect.


The simplest explanation with the least amount of assumptions would be that the ending sucked and the Bioware team, especialy the people responsible for making the ending thought it would make do and it would finish the job in the allotted time.
There is no proof that it's the right assumption or that it's the "only right" assumption, but given the lesser amount assumptions needed to formulate the hypotheses it's probably more correct than the IT when it commes to explain the ending we got on release.

What will Bioware do in the EC? They will do that which feels good for the team and that which is likely to pacify the largest amount of dissatisfied fans without upsettign more fans, and without loosing face entierly.
They say they wont chagne the ending but they can still add to them and they can diversify them without changing the actual endings as they were but adding more to it to make them different and satisfy consumer feedback. To some degree anyway.

It will be interesting to see what BW does. Whatever they do it will likely have ramifications that they didn't anticipate, especialy if it's true they didn't anticipate the fans reaction to the endings given at release.

I think that will be enough from me in this thread, I got other things to do, but I must say it will be interesting no matter what hapens. If not for the sake of the game but from the socialstuddies point of view and science   It will also be a nice example for marketing management classes on how and how not to manage customer relations.

Occam's Razor can't be used on literary interpretations because of hidden meanings. If you're trying to use it on Literary interpretations, you're using it wrong. It's for scientific and philisophical theories. Nice try though, sport.

This whole discussion definitely has both scientific (look logically at the facts presented within the codex) and philosophical (do you believe in the IT or not) roots, meaning Occam's Razor is applicable here. It is NOT applicable to the story as a whole, but can be applied to some of its segments. We can use it to go through the knowledge we have of indoctrination (a scientific subject within the virtual reality of the story) and whether Shepard was subject to it (factual proof within the virtual reality of the story).

It's not applicable because we are talking about story elements which are guided by a concious being or beings. Occam never meant the theory to be used in all situations and in many situations it is actually the wrong tool to use. It is especially wrong to use it on a video game whose main focus is the story. Shooting stuff comes second to the story and is only the vehicle to drive the adventure story forward.

[PreciousIsland]

BatmanTurian wrote...

AsheraII wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Read the OP in a televangelist's voice and you'll realize how ridiculous he sounds. He says IT is a religion, but he sounds like he's telling us that the devil is seducing us into believing the IT.
He sounds like a religious leader. Sorry, but it's true. It completely undermines everything he has to say. Seboist just sounds like a sycophant choir boy in this metaphor.

IT is still built and faith and belief more than something proven. There is no single piece of proof that noone can question. There is no line where the writers wrote. "Shepard is indoctrinated" or "this is a dream, even after you wake up from the dream!" or "this is a dream inside your dream!"...

Since im also dissapointed in the current ending I can relate to the need to reject it and the pain of it would it be all there was to it.. Which atm I think happens to be the case   It's just the simplest solution and most plausible explanation that doesn't requier lofty storytelling and very farfetched theories to prove it, even though it is done without any tangiable proof that can't be questioned.

I choose the most scientific solution to pick a hypothetical theory, Occam's razor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor

Occam's razor (also written as Ockham's razor, Latin lex parsimoniae) is the law of parsimony, economy or succinctness. It is a principle urging one to select from among competing hypotheses that which makes the fewest assumptions and thereby offers the simplest explanation of the effect.


The simplest explanation with the least amount of assumptions would be that the ending sucked and the Bioware team, especialy the people responsible for making the ending thought it would make do and it would finish the job in the allotted time.
There is no proof that it's the right assumption or that it's the "only right" assumption, but given the lesser amount assumptions needed to formulate the hypotheses it's probably more correct than the IT when it commes to explain the ending we got on release.

What will Bioware do in the EC? They will do that which feels good for the team and that which is likely to pacify the largest amount of dissatisfied fans without upsettign more fans, and without loosing face entierly.
They say they wont chagne the ending but they can still add to them and they can diversify them without changing the actual endings as they were but adding more to it to make them different and satisfy consumer feedback. To some degree anyway.

It will be interesting to see what BW does. Whatever they do it will likely have ramifications that they didn't anticipate, especialy if it's true they didn't anticipate the fans reaction to the endings given at release.

I think that will be enough from me in this thread, I got other things to do, but I must say it will be interesting no matter what hapens. If not for the sake of the game but from the socialstuddies point of view and science   It will also be a nice example for marketing management classes on how and how not to manage customer relations.

Occam's Razor can't be used on literary interpretations because of hidden meanings. If you're trying to use it on Literary interpretations, you're using it wrong. It's for scientific and philisophical theories. Nice try though, sport.

This whole discussion definitely has both scientific (look logically at the facts presented within the codex) and philosophical (do you believe in the IT or not) roots, meaning Occam's Razor is applicable here. It is NOT applicable to the story as a whole, but can be applied to some of its segments. We can use it to go through the knowledge we have of indoctrination (a scientific subject within the virtual reality of the story) and whether Shepard was subject to it (factual proof within the virtual reality of the story).

It's not applicable because we are talking about story elements which are guided by a concious being or beings. Occam never meant the theory to be used in all situations and in many situations it is actually the wrong tool to use. It is especially wrong to use it on a video game whose main focus is the story. Shooting stuff comes second to the story and is only the vehicle to drive the adventure story forward.

I've been saying stuff like this over and over again.  It is no use, BatmanTurian.  I think that schools, especially universities, ought to teach more emphatically what you can't do and what doesn't make sense.  It is perfectly clear why Occam's Razor cannot apply to literary criticism and you explained it in a straightforward, lucid way.  There is a psychological reason that they are not getting it.  Either that or they are flat-out stupid.  Or both.

[AsheraII]

BatmanTurian wrote...

AsheraII wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Read the OP in a televangelist's voice and you'll realize how ridiculous he sounds. He says IT is a religion, but he sounds like he's telling us that the devil is seducing us into believing the IT.
He sounds like a religious leader. Sorry, but it's true. It completely undermines everything he has to say. Seboist just sounds like a sycophant choir boy in this metaphor.

IT is still built and faith and belief more than something proven. There is no single piece of proof that noone can question. There is no line where the writers wrote. "Shepard is indoctrinated" or "this is a dream, even after you wake up from the dream!" or "this is a dream inside your dream!"...

Since im also dissapointed in the current ending I can relate to the need to reject it and the pain of it would it be all there was to it.. Which atm I think happens to be the case   It's just the simplest solution and most plausible explanation that doesn't requier lofty storytelling and very farfetched theories to prove it, even though it is done without any tangiable proof that can't be questioned.

I choose the most scientific solution to pick a hypothetical theory, Occam's razor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor

Occam's razor (also written as Ockham's razor, Latin lex parsimoniae) is the law of parsimony, economy or succinctness. It is a principle urging one to select from among competing hypotheses that which makes the fewest assumptions and thereby offers the simplest explanation of the effect.


The simplest explanation with the least amount of assumptions would be that the ending sucked and the Bioware team, especialy the people responsible for making the ending thought it would make do and it would finish the job in the allotted time.
There is no proof that it's the right assumption or that it's the "only right" assumption, but given the lesser amount assumptions needed to formulate the hypotheses it's probably more correct than the IT when it commes to explain the ending we got on release.

What will Bioware do in the EC? They will do that which feels good for the team and that which is likely to pacify the largest amount of dissatisfied fans without upsettign more fans, and without loosing face entierly.
They say they wont chagne the ending but they can still add to them and they can diversify them without changing the actual endings as they were but adding more to it to make them different and satisfy consumer feedback. To some degree anyway.

It will be interesting to see what BW does. Whatever they do it will likely have ramifications that they didn't anticipate, especialy if it's true they didn't anticipate the fans reaction to the endings given at release.

I think that will be enough from me in this thread, I got other things to do, but I must say it will be interesting no matter what hapens. If not for the sake of the game but from the socialstuddies point of view and science   It will also be a nice example for marketing management classes on how and how not to manage customer relations.

Occam's Razor can't be used on literary interpretations because of hidden meanings. If you're trying to use it on Literary interpretations, you're using it wrong. It's for scientific and philisophical theories. Nice try though, sport.

This whole discussion definitely has both scientific (look logically at the facts presented within the codex) and philosophical (do you believe in the IT or not) roots, meaning Occam's Razor is applicable here. It is NOT applicable to the story as a whole, but can be applied to some of its segments. We can use it to go through the knowledge we have of indoctrination (a scientific subject within the virtual reality of the story) and whether Shepard was subject to it (factual proof within the virtual reality of the story).

It's not applicable because we are talking about story elements which are guided by a concious being or beings. Occam never meant the theory to be used in all situations and in many situations it is actually the wrong tool to use. It is especially wrong to use it on a video game whose main focus is the story. Shooting stuff comes second to the story and is only the vehicle to drive the adventure story forward.

It is a science fiction story though. Science is like shooting: it's there to drive the story forward. And we're pretty specifically discussing a science component: indcoctrination.

[BatmanTurian]

PreciousIsland wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

AsheraII wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Read the OP in a televangelist's voice and you'll realize how ridiculous he sounds. He says IT is a religion, but he sounds like he's telling us that the devil is seducing us into believing the IT.
He sounds like a religious leader. Sorry, but it's true. It completely undermines everything he has to say. Seboist just sounds like a sycophant choir boy in this metaphor.

IT is still built and faith and belief more than something proven. There is no single piece of proof that noone can question. There is no line where the writers wrote. "Shepard is indoctrinated" or "this is a dream, even after you wake up from the dream!" or "this is a dream inside your dream!"...

Since im also dissapointed in the current ending I can relate to the need to reject it and the pain of it would it be all there was to it.. Which atm I think happens to be the case   It's just the simplest solution and most plausible explanation that doesn't requier lofty storytelling and very farfetched theories to prove it, even though it is done without any tangiable proof that can't be questioned.

I choose the most scientific solution to pick a hypothetical theory, Occam's razor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor

Occam's razor (also written as Ockham's razor, Latin lex parsimoniae) is the law of parsimony, economy or succinctness. It is a principle urging one to select from among competing hypotheses that which makes the fewest assumptions and thereby offers the simplest explanation of the effect.


The simplest explanation with the least amount of assumptions would be that the ending sucked and the Bioware team, especialy the people responsible for making the ending thought it would make do and it would finish the job in the allotted time.
There is no proof that it's the right assumption or that it's the "only right" assumption, but given the lesser amount assumptions needed to formulate the hypotheses it's probably more correct than the IT when it commes to explain the ending we got on release.

What will Bioware do in the EC? They will do that which feels good for the team and that which is likely to pacify the largest amount of dissatisfied fans without upsettign more fans, and without loosing face entierly.
They say they wont chagne the ending but they can still add to them and they can diversify them without changing the actual endings as they were but adding more to it to make them different and satisfy consumer feedback. To some degree anyway.

It will be interesting to see what BW does. Whatever they do it will likely have ramifications that they didn't anticipate, especialy if it's true they didn't anticipate the fans reaction to the endings given at release.

I think that will be enough from me in this thread, I got other things to do, but I must say it will be interesting no matter what hapens. If not for the sake of the game but from the socialstuddies point of view and science   It will also be a nice example for marketing management classes on how and how not to manage customer relations.

Occam's Razor can't be used on literary interpretations because of hidden meanings. If you're trying to use it on Literary interpretations, you're using it wrong. It's for scientific and philisophical theories. Nice try though, sport.

This whole discussion definitely has both scientific (look logically at the facts presented within the codex) and philosophical (do you believe in the IT or not) roots, meaning Occam's Razor is applicable here. It is NOT applicable to the story as a whole, but can be applied to some of its segments. We can use it to go through the knowledge we have of indoctrination (a scientific subject within the virtual reality of the story) and whether Shepard was subject to it (factual proof within the virtual reality of the story).

It's not applicable because we are talking about story elements which are guided by a concious being or beings. Occam never meant the theory to be used in all situations and in many situations it is actually the wrong tool to use. It is especially wrong to use it on a video game whose main focus is the story. Shooting stuff comes second to the story and is only the vehicle to drive the adventure story forward.

I've been saying stuff like this over and over again.  It is no use, BatmanTurian.  I think that schools, especially universities, ought to teach more emphatically what you can't do and what doesn't make sense.  It is perfectly clear why Occam's Razor cannot apply to literary criticism and you explained it in a straightforward, lucid way.  There is a psychological reason that they are not getting it.  Either that or they are flat-out stupid.  Or both.

Thanks for your agreement. It's nice to see we agree on something.

[malakim2099]

MegaSovereign wrote...

They hate IT because it means that Bioware intentionally released a game without an actual ending despite us being promised a game with full closure of Shepard's story.

And... why take this out on the people that think it's a nifty theory?

I mean, if you want to hate IT? Fine, don't agree with it. But why call people delusional, idiots, religious fanatics, etc?

All that does is cheapen the debate and divide the fanbase. Hey, I'm relatively pro-IT because I think it's a nifty theory and I'd like to see it implemented as a way of salvaging this mess... but, that's because the ending, as it is, sucked that badly.

Really, it sucked so bad that my next Shepard will have the first name of Hoover.

[BatmanTurian]

malakim2099 wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

They hate IT because it means that Bioware intentionally released a game without an actual ending despite us being promised a game with full closure of Shepard's story.

And... why take this out on the people that think it's a nifty theory?

I mean, if you want to hate IT? Fine, don't agree with it. But why call people delusional, idiots, religious fanatics, etc?

All that does is cheapen the debate and divide the fanbase. Hey, I'm relatively pro-IT because I think it's a nifty theory and I'd like to see it implemented as a way of salvaging this mess... but, that's because the ending, as it is, sucked that badly.

Really, it sucked so bad that my next Shepard will have the first name of Hoover.

Bioware has made it clear that lashing out at their company and employees is unacceptable, so those who find the IT intriguing are the next logical punching bag. Doesn't make it right, but I see that as the logical psychological reasoning. There is also the issue that if IT is true, people have been fooled (which many do not like) and/or their preferred ending that they have created positive head canon over might be, at best, bittersweet and, at worst, a foolish mistake. Therefore, they see IT as a threat to an ideology that they have formed for their preferred ending.

And then there are the people who don't agree with the interpretation on the grounds of the evidence being somewhat circumstantial in many cases. This is a stance I can accept even if I don't agree with it as long as they can respectfully disagree with the evidence.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 17 juin 2012 - 02:41 .

[malakim2099]

BatmanTurian wrote...

malakim2099 wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

They hate IT because it means that Bioware intentionally released a game without an actual ending despite us being promised a game with full closure of Shepard's story.

And... why take this out on the people that think it's a nifty theory?

I mean, if you want to hate IT? Fine, don't agree with it. But why call people delusional, idiots, religious fanatics, etc?

All that does is cheapen the debate and divide the fanbase. Hey, I'm relatively pro-IT because I think it's a nifty theory and I'd like to see it implemented as a way of salvaging this mess... but, that's because the ending, as it is, sucked that badly.

Really, it sucked so bad that my next Shepard will have the first name of Hoover.

Bioware has made it clear that lashing out at their company and employees is unacceptable, so those who find the IT intriguing are the next logical punching bag. Doesn't make it right, but I see that as the logical psychological reasoning. There is also the issue that if IT is true, people have been fooled (which many do not like) and/or their preferred ending that they have created positive head canon over might be, at best, bittersweet and, at worst, a foolish mistake. Therefore, they see IT as a threat to an ideology that they have formed for their preferred ending.

True... but still, it doesn't excuse the conduct in question. Granted, I think that 99% of it is the fact that people are just way braver on the Internet than they are in RL, so they yak up a much bigger storm that they'd never dare to do in reality.

Still, though, you'd think we were talking American politics, not a fan-elaborated* theory that happens to fit rather neatly into a flawed ending.

* wasn't really CREATED, as the IT idea was part of the original ending that was cut. Though it was definitely expanded out by the fans.

Modifié par malakim2099, 17 juin 2012 - 02:46 .

[Leonardo the Magnificent]

Could Occam's Razor not be applied to the competence of the writers, though? In which case, it'd actually have a bit more validity, seeing as how the quality of the writing has steadily deteriorated with each new installment.

Or I could be misinterpreting things.

[BatmanTurian]

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

Could Occam's Razor not be applied to the competence of the writers, though? In which case, it'd actually have a bit more validity, seeing as how the quality of the writing has steadily deteriorated with each new installment.

Or I could be misinterpreting things.

Debateable, I suppose. The writers are the author. What they wrote is what they intended. Therefore what is there is what is there and must be judged as it has been written.  At that point, one would discuss themes, plot points, characterization, etc. Writers can be bad, but a story must be judged by its events and what they ultimately symbolize, not by how incompetent one might think the writer may be, which is subjective.

[Catamantaloedis]

As if the writers' competence is in question.

Modifié par Catamantaloedis, 17 juin 2012 - 04:04 .

[John Epler]

And we're done here.