383 réponses à ce sujet

[Thaxor]

Terraflare wrote...

Fox-snipe wrote...
[...]

Yes well, I guess we are nit picking here. At the end of the day all that matters is that bioware has already stated that it 1) Is a feature (no matter how lazy they are in saying this) and 2) It isnt going to be removed. So that should be enough for anyone. Whether or not that means it is strictly, strictly INTENTIONAL , I dont really care about. For all purposes, it is. Therefore to use your point, if I created a request for valve to fix airstrafing, it is even more legitimate than this post, because airstrafing was never denied or accepted as being a bug. No one even raised it up, the community just accepted it as part of the game and moved on.

Which is why I find it curious that this game (not even a PvP game like quake/CS/TF2, not even on the same competitive league, not even involving thousands of dollars of prize money) has a community that is so uptight over balance/minor bugs/strange features/things that dont make much "sense". When an "OP" new weapon gets released into TF2, there isnt this forum outcry over it, just that the regulars will quickly realise it and avoid using it, even if they could abuse it to high hell and destroy noobs with it. 

I agree that reload canceling is de facto part of the game, Bioware has decreed it.  However as I noted above,  I'm still going to advocate it from time to time.  I mean... there is precedent for Bioware about facing on things they have declared "intentional" (Extended Cut, I'm looking at you).

Lots of reasons why the community here might be more vocal:

• the MP community is newer than TF2 (less jaded)
  
• larger player base
  
• simply more vocal/angry/immature set of players (I've always felt that the average player age is lower on consoles than PC)

Oh, and as for your "10 minute shortcut" to work question, it's not valid in this situation.  Unless your boss monitors everyone's driving habits and route in an effort to create the most balanced morning commute possible, it's not a valid comparison. 

Bioware is the overseer of this game, trying to create the most level playing field for everyone.  Withholding information from players (reload canceling can provide a pretty substantial benefit) is not conducive to creating that level playing field.  And no, announcing it on the forums is not adequate (IMO).  Only a very small subset of players visit the forums.

[Pitznik]

Pros:

- it adds another layer to gameplay. Your character puts extra effort for extra effect. Like headshots - you can focus nad get more damage, or do it sloppy, which is easier, but less effective. Good play rewarded = good thing.
- it's intended. Here you can read what Christina Norman had to say on the matter. Please do.
edit: I posted the link to summary, but if someone finds it to be dubious, here are original posts. Thanks to Shock n Awe.

Cons:
- disparity between PC and consoles. Unfair. Should be fixed.
- lack of mention in documentation. Imo, it should be somewhere there, but Christana Norman said, that it is an advanced feature, one you don't put in documentation, like armor values or stuff like that.

Removing game feature which makes it more engaging is never a good thing. Poor Kishock

Modifié par Pitznik, 16 juin 2012 - 07:56 .

[Tangster]

MostlyAutumn wrote...

Christina Norman to the rescue.
http://social.biowar...x/1006000/?lf=8

One advanced tip I can give for vanguard players is, you can cancel out of a reload animation to melee an enemy and you will still reload as long as you've completed 60% of the reload animation. It's tricky to master, definitely for more twitchy players, but it really helps with the claymore.

You can do it with any class and any weapon. In addition to melee, any power works to cancel out of a reload. For example, on my adept I often use pull or warp to cancel out of a reload.

http://social.biowar...x/4840984/?lf=8

I tuned the reload trick for consoles, if it is significantly easier to do on PC that was not intentional (but I wouldn't patch that away). What makes it significantly easier on PC so I can try to replicate it and tune them separately for ME3?

The reload trick is an example of canceling animations. This is a pretty common technique though it is primarily used in fighting games:

Here is an example of it in use in street fighter

http://www.eventhubs...3-third-strike/

If you don't like the reload trick, by all means don't use it! It is supposed to reward coordination and timing.

99% of players will have no interest in the reload trick, it's a very advanced feature, that is only useful with certain playstyles and weapons. It doesn't make sense to present that information to all users in documentation.

Documentation is generally for core gameplay concepts that you need to understand to play the game.
I purposefully mentioned this trick on the forums because I did want players to be aware of it and evidently it worked (everyone here at least seems aware of it). In my view the forums are a great way to distribute gameplay information that it doesn't make sense to include in the game.

With that said, I am not excusing myself for any situation where players are confused by information presented in game (i.e. charge not benefiting from biotic cooldown reducers). That was an error on my part, and for ME3 I will do a better job of communicating vital information that does matter (like cooldowns, and the effects of upgrades).

All this talk about the reload trick is entirely redundant.

Either you like the claymore or you don't. It has nothing to do with the reload trick. If there are players out the who feel forced to use the reload trick and hate it because it makes their thumbs bleed, I am sorry.

The claymore of the claymore was not in any way influenced by the existence of the reload trick.

Also reload trick is kind of a dumb name we should really call it reload canceling.

/thread

[soldo9149]

great find MostlyAutumn

[Patreus]

If he wants reloading canceling removed, I want biotic explosions removed. While we are on the topic of removing features from the game, I want ammo to be completely removed.

[Patreus]

Tangster wrote...

MostlyAutumn wrote...

Christina Norman to the rescue.
http://social.biowar...x/1006000/?lf=8

One advanced tip I can give for vanguard players is, you can cancel out of a reload animation to melee an enemy and you will still reload as long as you've completed 60% of the reload animation. It's tricky to master, definitely for more twitchy players, but it really helps with the claymore.

You can do it with any class and any weapon. In addition to melee, any power works to cancel out of a reload. For example, on my adept I often use pull or warp to cancel out of a reload.

http://social.biowar...x/4840984/?lf=8

I tuned the reload trick for consoles, if it is significantly easier to do on PC that was not intentional (but I wouldn't patch that away). What makes it significantly easier on PC so I can try to replicate it and tune them separately for ME3?

The reload trick is an example of canceling animations. This is a pretty common technique though it is primarily used in fighting games:

Here is an example of it in use in street fighter

http://www.eventhubs...3-third-strike/

If you don't like the reload trick, by all means don't use it! It is supposed to reward coordination and timing.

99% of players will have no interest in the reload trick, it's a very advanced feature, that is only useful with certain playstyles and weapons. It doesn't make sense to present that information to all users in documentation.

Documentation is generally for core gameplay concepts that you need to understand to play the game.
I purposefully mentioned this trick on the forums because I did want players to be aware of it and evidently it worked (everyone here at least seems aware of it). In my view the forums are a great way to distribute gameplay information that it doesn't make sense to include in the game.

With that said, I am not excusing myself for any situation where players are confused by information presented in game (i.e. charge not benefiting from biotic cooldown reducers). That was an error on my part, and for ME3 I will do a better job of communicating vital information that does matter (like cooldowns, and the effects of upgrades).

All this talk about the reload trick is entirely redundant.

Either you like the claymore or you don't. It has nothing to do with the reload trick. If there are players out the who feel forced to use the reload trick and hate it because it makes their thumbs bleed, I am sorry.

The claymore of the claymore was not in any way influenced by the existence of the reload trick.

Also reload trick is kind of a dumb name we should really call it reload canceling.

/thread

[Meneldhil]

It's quite obvious this is a glitch that Bioware can't be arsed to fix.

Seriously, pushing a button to cancel a very important life-or-death animation is "working as intended"? I understand Bioware people are master in PR-BS, but it's pretty sad fanboys just buy this bunch of bollock and repeat the mantra here while keeping a straight face.

Most other game companies would have admited this wasn't a feature, and would have tried to fix it. Saddly, it's Bioware we're talking about here. When they screw up something, it's "art" and a "feature" that customers are too stupid to fully comprehend.

Modifié par Meneldhil, 16 juin 2012 - 08:00 .

[Arppis]

Reload canceling is realistic. Because I HATE IT in the games when I have actualy done the reloading (the clips are in the gun) and the animation doesn't run to the end... I HAVE TO START AGAIN! Like Left4Dead, if you miss one nano-second of that animation, you have to start again and it's freaking annoying!

[Pitznik]

Meneldhil wrote...

It's quite obvious this is a glitch that Bioware can't be arsed to fix.

Seriously, pushing a button to cancel a very important life-or-death animation is "working as intended"? I understand Bioware people are master in PR-BS, but it's pretty sad fanboys just buy this bunch of bollock and repeat the mantra here while keeping a straight face.

Most other game companies would have admited this wasn't a feature, and would have tried to fix it. Saddly, it's Bioware we're talking about here. When they screw up something, it's "art" and a "feature" that customers are too stupid to fully comprehend.

Links posted say that you're wrong. They were aware of the reload cancel before and during development, they CHOSEN to have it ingame. Look at timestamps of posts.

[Edalborez]

Arppis wrote...

Reload canceling is realistic. Because I HATE IT in the games when I have actualy done the reloading (the clips are in the gun) and the animation doesn't run to the end... I HAVE TO START AGAIN! Like Left4Dead, if you miss one nano-second of that animation, you have to start again and it's freaking annoying!

This. Dear god this. L4D's reloading makes me crazy because I reload constantly in any shooter.

[Saaz5555]

Reload canceling is normal in any game. Using abilities and some animations to cancel reloading is fine and it should work like that.
However, reload canceling by using medigel is a bug AND rebinding it from 7 to some other convinient key is abusing that bug.
Bioware said that reload cancel is a feature, but they didn't say anything about medigel cancel.

[Distilled Poison]

Ok, all I did was read the opening post. Please tell me the next 6 pages are all people telling the OP he's an ignorant crybaby.

[avenged100fold]

No one who is arguing against it seems to realize OP probably meant he wanted the part where people exploit it for fast reloads removed, not the GTFO or use a power or consumable part. And it's worded vaguely do I understand that.

[Quxorda]

Patreus wrote...

Tangster wrote...

MostlyAutumn wrote...

Christina Norman to the rescue.
http://social.biowar...x/1006000/?lf=8

One advanced tip I can give for vanguard players is, you can cancel out of a reload animation to melee an enemy and you will still reload as long as you've completed 60% of the reload animation. It's tricky to master, definitely for more twitchy players, but it really helps with the claymore.

You can do it with any class and any weapon. In addition to melee, any power works to cancel out of a reload. For example, on my adept I often use pull or warp to cancel out of a reload.

http://social.biowar...x/4840984/?lf=8

I tuned the reload trick for consoles, if it is significantly easier to do on PC that was not intentional (but I wouldn't patch that away). What makes it significantly easier on PC so I can try to replicate it and tune them separately for ME3?

The reload trick is an example of canceling animations. This is a pretty common technique though it is primarily used in fighting games:

Here is an example of it in use in street fighter

http://www.eventhubs...3-third-strike/

If you don't like the reload trick, by all means don't use it! It is supposed to reward coordination and timing.

99% of players will have no interest in the reload trick, it's a very advanced feature, that is only useful with certain playstyles and weapons. It doesn't make sense to present that information to all users in documentation.

Documentation is generally for core gameplay concepts that you need to understand to play the game.
I purposefully mentioned this trick on the forums because I did want players to be aware of it and evidently it worked (everyone here at least seems aware of it). In my view the forums are a great way to distribute gameplay information that it doesn't make sense to include in the game.

With that said, I am not excusing myself for any situation where players are confused by information presented in game (i.e. charge not benefiting from biotic cooldown reducers). That was an error on my part, and for ME3 I will do a better job of communicating vital information that does matter (like cooldowns, and the effects of upgrades).

All this talk about the reload trick is entirely redundant.

Either you like the claymore or you don't. It has nothing to do with the reload trick. If there are players out the who feel forced to use the reload trick and hate it because it makes their thumbs bleed, I am sorry.

The claymore of the claymore was not in any way influenced by the existence of the reload trick.

Also reload trick is kind of a dumb name we should really call it reload canceling.

/thread

Well that pretty much renders this entire threat moot, well done. I'm not sure wether to find it amusing or depressing that the OP spent so much effort and energy on this yet no one bothers doing it for things that matter.. Like at least three classes having power evolves that simply do not work at all.

[avenged100fold]

I doubt 99% of people don't care to use it. I bet all snipers want it, and 75% simply don't fully realize it exists. And then about about 5% have no interest in using a base level, not even remotely advanced technique that you can do it almost any shooter because they want to do the whole animation. That number sounds like an off-the head no basis in reality thing.
But so are mine. So we're even.

Though I like to believe mine is slightly more reasonable.

[sclera]

 better listen to him bioware, he means business!

[Thaxor]

Thanks for that MostlyAutumn.

It still doesn't change my core stance, that as implemented it's a shoddy (looking, at minimum) mechanic.  They could have implemented it much better IMO.

As to the greater issue of animation canceling, I see no problem with that.  I think it's totally fair to stop reloading mid reload if you need to get out of Dodge before you get killed.  I just wish that, at least in this specific case, you don't get both benefits, your gun reloaded and you're out of Dodge.  Getting both without any effort isn't interesting or fun.  Give me the choice between risking damage but reloading faster, OR rolling/running out of there, but having to take more time to get back in the fight.

That's all I want, a meaningful choice, not a "oh I'll just reload cancel every chance I get cause there is no downside".

Also, slight LOL at Christina saying it's an advanced skill that's hard to do.

[avenged100fold]

Still not OP here why do you people think I am he left after page two or something I just came in and talk between games and everybody is saying I'm raging and have mental health problems

Okay bsn

That's cool

[avenged100fold]

Thaxor wrote...

Thanks for that MostlyAutumn.

It still doesn't change my core stance, that as implemented it's a shoddy (looking, at minimum) mechanic.  They could have implemented it much better IMO.

As to the greater issue of animation canceling, I see no problem with that.  I think it's totally fair to stop reloading mid reload if you need to get out of Dodge before you get killed.  I just wish that, at least in this specific case, you don't get both benefits, your gun reloaded and you're out of Dodge.  Getting both without any effort isn't interesting or fun.  Give me the choice between risking damage but reloading faster, OR rolling/running out of there, but having to take more time to get back in the fight.

That's all I want, a meaningful choice, not a "oh I'll just reload cancel every chance I get cause there is no downside".

Also, slight LOL at Christina saying it's an advanced skill that's hard to do.

I love this person

Thank you blessed person for understanding literally the only issue and being reasonable instead of fighting issues that don't exist.

And not calling me OP (cause I think they think I'm OP - secret - I'm not)

[sclera]

Thaxor wrote...

 "oh I'll just reload cancel every chance I get cause there is no downside".

Messing it up is a pretty big downside. If you reload cancel a lot and never screw it up, I'm impressed. 

[Arppis]

avenged100fold wrote...

I doubt 99% of people don't care to use it. I bet all snipers want it, and 75% simply don't fully realize it exists. And then about about 5% have no interest in using a base level, not even remotely advanced technique that you can do it almost any shooter because they want to do the whole animation. That number sounds like an off-the head no basis in reality thing.
But so are mine. So we're even.

Though I like to believe mine is slightly more reasonable.

Look, it's not just a glitch, if you have already ejected the clip, why should you do it again?! Left4Dead shows us how DAMN annoying it is to reload AAAAALL over again if you miss even ONE nanosecond of the animation.

People just abuse this feature and so what? Why should you play the precious animation to the fullest when gun is already loaded?

[avenged100fold]

Do I believe OP has said he recognizes Bioware said it was intended. He has also said he still thinks its stupid.

So explain to me how showing him Bioware saying it was intended is going to change his opinion and render this thread moot... When everyone here already knows Bioware says its intended.

God, I'm going to get my ass kicked someday when I can't stop myself from pointing out logical fallacies to people.

[Bubba TSJ]

Why don't we just cancel multiplayer altogether while we're at it?

[Mandalore313]

They already said no, so ...