383 réponses à ce sujet

[avenged100fold]

No one is crying.

No one wants it removed.

Everyone agrees it is staying.

A lot of people like it (me included)

The only thing we are even arguing about at this point is about the fact that people are making bad comparisons and arguments, and that me pointing out their fallacies makes me an **** and an idiot.

Thank you for your irrelevant input.

[Thaxor]

newman982 wrote...

avenged100fold wrote...

Thaxor wrote...

Bubba TSJ wrote...
[...]

[...]

You deserve a cookie man. I'm glad logical people are joining in here. It's about time.

Yes, anyone who disagrees with you must be illogical, not simply having a differing opinion!  You dont seem very logical yourself making blanket statements like that. 

Differing opinion is one thing, equating revising/removing reload canceling with canceling multiplayer is invalid, ergo, illogical.

If you want to counter the argument, try not going to such an extreme... it weakens your stance.

EDIT:

Ooops, apologies newman982.  Misattributed Bubba TSJ's quote to you.  Sorry!

Modifié par Thaxor, 16 juin 2012 - 08:50 .

[Transairion]

It wouldn't matter if certain weapons didn't have a long reload as "balancing". Case in point Claymore. If you're shooting the Claymore more than twice in 3 seconds, then we've got a problem. You should be spending those seconds reloading.

Why bother giving it a long reload if you can just cancel it? It just makes no sense, so they may as well remove all "offset by long reload" tags on some weapons.

That said, it's even worse in other games. You ever seen a 6-shot pistol in something like Black Ops being reloaded in like a second flat? Imagine a guy putting in 6 bullets in 6 different chambers all at once that quick... it's hilariously illogical to watch.

[Quxorda]

Transairion wrote...

Because it adds flavor and fun. Refer to my post at the top of the page.

So does glitching out of the map in Hydra, unless you consider that working as intended too.

Reload cancelling just makes balancing weapons V reload times a load of bull, since the reload is pratically non-existant if you cancel.

It doesn't, there is still reload time. It also clearly doesn't do anything to reload balancing since they intentionally left it in there - I'm sure they are concious of the fact that you can lower a Claymores reload time and they are fine with it - in all likely-hood it was considered in their design of the Claymore from the start.

Glitching out of the map on Hydra is also a false comparison, that grants the player an extra life if they die while preventing them from doing objectives and potentially bugs out the AI so they stop shooting you. To compare any of that to shaving roughly a second off your reloading is to be honest, quite silly. If you want to make an accurate comparison, many were already given both in this thread and in the post I referenced (which I assume you didn't bother reading).

Transairion wrote...

It wouldn't matter if certain weapons
didn't have a long reload as "balancing". Case in point Claymore. If
you're shooting the Claymore more than twice in 3 seconds, then we've
got a problem. You should be spending those seconds reloading.

Why
bother giving it a long reload if you can just cancel it? It just makes
no sense, so they may as well remove all "offset by long reload" tags
on some weapons.

That said, it's even worse in other games. You
ever seen a 6-shot pistol in something like Black Ops being reloaded in
like a second flat? Imagine a guy putting in 6 bullets in 6 different
chambers all at once that quick... it's hilariously illogical to watch.

Because they want to reward players who learn how to do it and have the timing/co-ordination to pull it off. This was already explained very clearly in the post by the Bioware employee that you seem to either have missed or are having trouble comprehending.

Modifié par Quxorda, 16 juin 2012 - 08:47 .

[avenged100fold]

Thank you.... I feel like when people have others besides the person they percieve themselves at war with or whatever point out they are wrong, they are much more likely to listen

[Pitznik]

avenged100fold wrote...

No one is crying.

No one wants it removed.

Everyone agrees it is staying.

A lot of people like it (me included)

The only thing we are even arguing about at this point is about the fact that people are making bad comparisons and arguments, and that me pointing out their fallacies makes me an **** and an idiot.

Thank you for your irrelevant input.

What is your point then? If you don't want it removed, what exactly are you arguing about now? Honest question, I'm confused.

[Arppis]

avenged100fold wrote...

If there's more animation for a reason, that reason must be keeping magazine or priming it, and reload cancelling should leave your magazine not fully ready. If the magazine is ready at that point in the animation, then why have more animation?

It makes no sense. It's that simple. Take out reload cancelling halfway through, and that would make sense. Take out animations after mag is in, and that makes sense.

I prefer option two.

No doubt. Reload should be efficent AS possible.

Modifié par Arppis, 16 juin 2012 - 08:46 .

[lpconfig]

Thaxor wrote...

newman982 wrote...

avenged100fold wrote...

Thaxor wrote...

Bubba TSJ wrote...
[...]

[...]

You deserve a cookie man. I'm glad logical people are joining in here. It's about time.

Yes, anyone who disagrees with you must be illogical, not simply having a differing opinion!  You dont seem very logical yourself making blanket statements like that. 

Differing opinion is one thing, equating revising/removing reload canceling with canceling multiplayer is invalid, ergo, illogical.

If you want to counter the argument, try not going to such an extreme... it weakens your stance.

<The point >



(Your Head)



I didnt even address the argument about reload cancelling in that quote, I was highlighting a fallacy in his debate style. 

[avenged100fold]

I don't know about the Hydra glitch, but that does sound unreasoned to compare. I dunno, I still like my state law anecdote that no one read as to why I don't think speeding your reloads was the point of reload cancelling. I rwally can't think of a good comparison to reload cancelling other than if there was a glitch to let you get your cool down to like 300 percent or something that resulted because of something unrelated like not rolling off ladder ledges.

[someN7orother]

avenged100fold wrote...

Hey Mr. Kusy, guess your cromagnon brain couldn't understand that I have not actually stated that I want it removed and just went straight to "this guy thinks my points are dumb, MUST ACCUSE OF WHINING, CRYING AND GENERAL ****ERY"

Just a quick FYI, Cro-Magnons had larger cranial capacity than modern humans, as did Neanderthals and other primitive proto-humans. There's also indication that they had more advanced tools than our ancestors. So I'd just play it safe next time and pull the basement dweller card or something. Anthropology-inspired insults just aren't your forte.

Shame, too. Because you have expressed interesting opinions regarding reload cancelling. But that's the thing, opinions need not have any factual basis, and trying to convince others, throwing out a few insults for good measure, that their own are wrong while yours is "right" isn't the best way to have a meaningful conversation. Even on BSN.

My own opinion is that it's just another little gimmick the game has. Spices things up a bit. I reload cancel almost by reflex now, and still manage to screw up from time to time, especially when fighting Geth hunters in close quarters and mixing powers. Interesting that nobody has mentioned the fact that gel cancelling can result in gel being wasted, as trying to cancel the instant you go down will instantly get you back up -- with one less gel in your pocket and often in a hairy spot. Just another con of cancelling.
 
'm also curious what people think of other forms of cancelling such as Nova cancelling or Smash/Lash cancelling.

[avenged100fold]

Pitznik wrote...

avenged100fold wrote...

No one is crying.

No one wants it removed.

Everyone agrees it is staying.

A lot of people like it (me included)

The only thing we are even arguing about at this point is about the fact that people are making bad comparisons and arguments, and that me pointing out their fallacies makes me an **** and an idiot.

Thank you for your irrelevant input.

What is your point then? If you don't want it removed, what exactly are you arguing about now? Honest question, I'm confused.

First off, I would like to say I'm not OP. I didn't create this. The board now no longer is talking about anything relevant to the title.
Really we're just yelling that the other side is stupid it seems.
I just snapped because if you read a few of my posts you realize no one is even here for the rc anymore. Sorry 

[Thaxor]

newman982 wrote...
<The point >



(Your Head)



I didnt even address the argument about reload cancelling in that quote, I was highlighting a fallacy in his debate style. 

See my edited post above, I misattributed someone else's comment to you.  Sorry!

On that note, I'm going to bow out for the time being.  I meant to be playing all this time but got drawn into this thread.

[Pitznik]

someN7orother wrote...

(...)Interesting that nobody has mentioned the fact that gel cancelling can result in gel being wasted, as trying to cancel the instant you go down will instantly get you back up -- with one less gel in your pocket and often in a hairy spot. Just another con of cancelling.
 
'm also curious what people think of other forms of cancelling such as Nova cancelling or Smash/Lash cancelling.

Hahaha. When I started to reload cancel all the time, I also started using new gear, Stronghold Package. When I mysteriously went back up second I died, I really thought it was some bug related to new gear, or even some sort of unmentioned feature. Only few deaths later, when I noticed my medi gel supply growing lower, I realized what is going on

[avenged100fold]

So Newman... Let me get this straight...
Comparing losing a small trick to multiplayer is not a fallacy

And me calling him out on his apparently not fallacy is a fallacy

Not just a fallacy

An argument fallacy

That occurred in what was not an argument

Not was it fallacial



I need a drink

[Transairion]

If you want to make an accurate comparison, many were already given both in this thread and in the post I referenced (which I assume you didn't bother reading).

I read it, all of your points were based on PvP games. This is NOT a PvP game. Reloading faster = the difference between $1000 and going home empty in a tournament there, so sure leave it there. Skilled will do skilled stuff.

This is not PvP. This is vs AI. Why the heck do you need to reload faster than animated? You don't. The scoreboard is basically meaningless, so what can't we all just use the same animations yaknow? They put them in there to begin with, if you don't want us to use them then wtf put them there.

If the Claymore was balanced with cancelling in mind, then what does that say to all the normal players? You get double the reload since you don't mash your consumable keys? Normal reload is MEANT to be the base. Your basically saying we're not good enough to get "the balanced" reload speed.

If anything that means balancing is out of whack, if stuff is balanced with reload-cancelling in mind.

[avenged100fold]

Ack, somen7oranother, come on.

Size is irrelevant, mass is more important, and both are negligible to efficiency of wiring.

Please.

[avenged100fold]

If the Claymore was balanced with cancelling in mind, then what does that say to all the normal players? You get double the reload since you don't mash your consumable keys? Normal reload is MEANT to be the base. Your basically saying we're not good enough to get "the balanced" reload speed.

If anything that means balancing is out of whack, if stuff is balanced with reload-cancelling in mind.

This

[CmdrPwn]

Deucetipher wrote...

Just out of curiosity, why do you wish it removed?

Because he's jealous of other people that can use it effectively.

[Pitznik]

Transairion wrote...

If you want to make an accurate comparison, many were already given both in this thread and in the post I referenced (which I assume you didn't bother reading).

I read it, all of your points were based on PvP games. This is NOT a PvP game. Reloading faster = the difference between $1000 and going home empty in a tournament there, so sure leave it there. Skilled will do skilled stuff.

This is not PvP. This is vs AI. Why the heck do you need to reload faster than animated? You don't. The scoreboard is basically meaningless, so what can't we all just use the same animations yaknow? They put them in there to begin with, if you don't want us to use them then wtf put them there.

Even in single player doing stuff in more efficient way brings you benefits, so I don't get your point. I need to reload faster to kill my enemies faster, to finish the game faster, to have less chance to die, to get better score, to have more fun. This is pretty obvious, isn't it? Every action like firing a power, shooting your gun, taking cover is simple. Coordinating all those action together, under fire, now that is where you can get better. Reload canceling is one more thing you can add on top of this, when you mastered other stuff. New layer of gameplay. Like my comparison with headshotting you ignored - little something extra you can do to get extra gain. Not required, but rewarding.

Transairion wrote...

If the Claymore was balanced with cancelling in mind, then what does that say to all the normal players? You get double the reload since you don't mash your consumable keys? Normal reload is MEANT to be the base. Your basically saying we're not good enough to get "the balanced" reload speed.

If anything that means balancing is out of whack, if stuff is balanced with reload-cancelling in mind.

Well it is again obvious. Not every one will hit all their shots, and even less will hit them on enemies head. Is game balance about missing 75% shots, 50% shots, 25%, no misses? 15% headshots, 20%? It is of course balanced about all of those - there is some baseline you must reach to barely beat the challenge, and from this point you can get better. If you're not good enough to reliably reload cancel, you don't deserve the better speed. If you're not good enough to hit mooks on the head, you don't deserve your enemies dying faster. Pretty basic stuff, really.

[avenged100fold]

Cdr. Pwn wrote...

Deucetipher wrote...

Just out of curiosity, why do you wish it removed?

Because he's jealous of other people that can use it effectively.

Because that's the only reason would not like things...

At least in BSN world.

Where all your dreams...
can be attributed to your lack of skill at attaining them

[avenged100fold]

Well it is again obvious. Not every one will hit all their shots, and even less will hit them on enemies head. Is game balance about missing 75% shots, 50% shots, 25%, no misses? 15% headshots, 20%? It is of course balanced about all of those - there is some baseline you must reach to barely beat the challenge, and from this point you can get better. If you're not good enough to reliably reload cancel, you don't deserve the better speed. If you're not good enough to hit mooks on the head, you don't deserve your enemies dying faster. Pretty basic stuff, really.

Because hitting someone in the head is instinctive and basic, while magically reloading your gun is not, as well as never mentioned in game, because, and this is from the Bioware person earlier, 99% don't use it, and I'd 99% don't use it, why in god's name would you make it only balanced for 1% players.

Not making things balanced only to 1% of players = basic stuff really.

[Transairion]

Well it is again obvious. Not every one will hit all their shots, and even less will hit them on enemies head. Is game balance about missing 75% shots, 50% shots, 25%, no misses? 15% headshots, 20%? It is of course balanced about all of those - there is some baseline you must reach to barely beat the challenge, and from this point you can get better.

Yeah but at least people know what headshotting is, since it's like, ingame hints. Hitting the head makes people die faster, holy cow. This isn't an issue of how bad is your aim, you hit part of the head you get bonuz damage. Amazing tips and tricks.

I've never even heard of reloading cancelling before the forums, you think the majority of players do and know how to do it? How the hell can you balance the game around something the majority of people don't do?

Trying not to seem pissy, but claiming balancing around reload-cancelling is A-OK just makes nil sense at all. Most people don't reload cancel, so most people are getting the unbalanced version. WTF?

[Pitznik]

avenged100fold wrote...

Well it is again obvious. Not every one will hit all their shots, and even less will hit them on enemies head. Is game balance about missing 75% shots, 50% shots, 25%, no misses? 15% headshots, 20%? It is of course balanced about all of those - there is some baseline you must reach to barely beat the challenge, and from this point you can get better. If you're not good enough to reliably reload cancel, you don't deserve the better speed. If you're not good enough to hit mooks on the head, you don't deserve your enemies dying faster. Pretty basic stuff, really.

Because hitting someone in the head is instinctive and basic, while magically reloading your gun is not, as well as never mentioned in game, because, and this is from the Bioware person earlier, 99% don't use it, and I'd 99% don't use it, why in god's name would you make it only balanced for 1% players.

Not making things balanced only to 1% of players = basic stuff really.

Game is balanced about normal reload speed. I agree with you that reload cancelling should be documented, but that's a different topic entirely. You missed my analogy. There are variable levels of performance, like in my example with headshots. There is a level when you're not good enough to win, like missing most of your shots, there is a level when you hit more often then miss, while taking cover when needed, and that is baseline to win. But games like this aren't just about losing/winning, you can get better score, better clearing time. That is where advanced features, like reload canceling, good ratio of headshots, perfect power usage come into play.

[Pitznik]

Transairion wrote...

Well it is again obvious. Not every one will hit all their shots, and even less will hit them on enemies head. Is game balance about missing 75% shots, 50% shots, 25%, no misses? 15% headshots, 20%? It is of course balanced about all of those - there is some baseline you must reach to barely beat the challenge, and from this point you can get better.

Yeah but at least people know what headshotting is, since it's like, ingame hints. Hitting the head makes people die faster, holy cow. This isn't an issue of how bad is your aim, you hit part of the head you get bonuz damage. Amazing tips and tricks.

I've never even heard of reloading cancelling before the forums, you think the majority of players do and know how to do it? How the hell can you balance the game around something the majority of people don't do?

Trying not to seem pissy, but claiming balancing around reload-cancelling is A-OK just makes nil sense at all. Most people don't reload cancel, so most people are getting the unbalanced version. WTF?

Game is NOT balanced around reload canceling, just like it is not balanced around 100% accuracy. That is an advanced technique, something you can do, but don't have to.

[avenged100fold]

Game is balanced about normal reload speed. I agree with you that reload cancelling should be documented, but that's a different topic entirely. You missed my analogy. There are variable levels of performance, like in my example with headshots. There is a level when you're not good enough to win, like missing most of your shots, there is a level when you hit more often then miss, while taking cover when needed, and that is baseline to win. But games like this aren't just about losing/winning, you can get better score, better clearing time. That is where advanced features, like reload canceling, good ratio of headshots, perfect power usage come into play.

I can definitely agree with most of that.
Thing is, it's easy to perform. And if it's balanced towards it, it is assumed most will do it. So why add a level of complexity, that in the long run, when the game gets balance around it by difficulty or something, means new players will have significantly less ability to do well, not knowing about the trick. Then, as means get a rep as a liability through lack of this knowledge that the game is balanced around, they get kicked from every single lobby. Community shrinks, we all suffer.

Why not just balance towards the regular, and make reload canceling harder to do or something. Risker. I don't care. I think it's fine, as long as no one claims something to be balanced of you reload cancel.