383 réponses à ce sujet

[Zero132132]

It seems bizarre that people are arguing about this. The whole weapon balancing issue is something I can at least comprehend, because it would be boring as **** if everyone played the same class with the same weapon, but there's just no sensibility at all behind this.

Who gives a **** what the makers initially intended? From a utilitarian perspective, there's no reason to remove it, and many players have come to use it effectively, so there's a reason not to.

There are plenty of examples in the history of gaming where mistakes actually became an important game mechanic. Street Fighter 2 was one of the first games to have combos, but it was an accident, an artifact of game design that they didn't bother fixing because they thought the skill to exploit it would be beyond most players. Similarly, the increase in difficulty in Space Invaders as you defeat enemies was initially a consequence of the extreme limitations in processing power at the time. It was never intentional, but increasing difficulty over time influenced many, many games since then.

Point is that in the history of gaming, there are a ****ton of examples of certain exploits actually adding to (occasionally even defining) the character of a game. What the hell's so different here?

[CeeO-connor]

Out of ignorance, what is 'reload cancelling'?

[someN7orother]

avenged100fold wrote...

Ack, somen7oranother, come on.

Size is irrelevant, mass is more important, and both are negligible to efficiency of wiring.

Please.

A more meaningful way to compare "intelligence" would be cortical surface, but we don't have any live brains. So we'll just have to settle for comparing what we do have, such as tools. Funny thing is, "intelligence" has very little to do with the ability to survive, especially in retrospective. Take crocodiles and sharks, for instance. Or bacteria.

Fascinating stuff, really.

[soldo9149]

CeeO-connor wrote...

Out of ignorance, what is 'reload cancelling'?

Christina Norman to the rescue.
http://social.biowar...x/1006000/?lf=8

One
advanced tip I can give for vanguard players is, you can cancel out of a
reload animation to melee an enemy and you will still reload as long as
you've completed 60% of the reload animation. It's tricky to master,
definitely for more twitchy players, but it really helps with the
claymore.

You can do it
with any class and any weapon. In addition to melee, any power works to
cancel out of a reload. For example, on my adept I often use pull or
warp to cancel out of a reload.

http://social.biowar...x/4840984/?lf=8

I
tuned the reload trick for consoles, if it is significantly easier to
do on PC that was not intentional (but I wouldn't patch that away). What
makes it significantly easier on PC so I can try to replicate it and
tune them separately for ME3?

The
reload trick is an example of canceling animations. This is a pretty
common technique though it is primarily used in fighting games:

Here is an example of it in use in street fighter

http://www.eventhubs...3-third-strike/

If you don't like the reload trick, by all means don't use it! It is supposed to reward coordination and timing.

99%
of players will have no interest in the reload trick, it's a very
advanced feature, that is only useful with certain playstyles and
weapons. It doesn't make sense to present that information to all users
in documentation.

Documentation is generally for core gameplay concepts that you need to understand to play the game.
I
purposefully mentioned this trick on the forums because I did want
players to be aware of it and evidently it worked (everyone here at
least seems aware of it). In my view the forums are a great way to
distribute gameplay information that it doesn't make sense to include in
the game.

With that said, I am not excusing myself for any
situation where players are confused by information presented in game
(i.e. charge not benefiting from biotic cooldown reducers). That was an
error on my part, and for ME3 I will do a better job of communicating
vital information that does matter (like cooldowns, and the effects of
upgrades).

All this talk about the reload trick is entirely redundant.

Either
you like the claymore or you don't. It has nothing to do with the
reload trick. If there are players out the who feel forced to use the
reload trick and hate it because it makes their thumbs bleed, I am
sorry.

The claymore of the claymore was not in any way influenced by the existence of the reload trick.

Also reload trick is kind of a dumb name we should really call it reload canceling.

[Pitznik]

avenged100fold wrote...

Game is balanced about normal reload speed. I agree with you that reload cancelling should be documented, but that's a different topic entirely. You missed my analogy. There are variable levels of performance, like in my example with headshots. There is a level when you're not good enough to win, like missing most of your shots, there is a level when you hit more often then miss, while taking cover when needed, and that is baseline to win. But games like this aren't just about losing/winning, you can get better score, better clearing time. That is where advanced features, like reload canceling, good ratio of headshots, perfect power usage come into play.

I can definitely agree with most of that.
Thing is, it's easy to perform. And if it's balanced towards it, it is assumed most will do it. So why add a level of complexity, that in the long run, when the game gets balance around it by difficulty or something, means new players will have significantly less ability to do well, not knowing about the trick. Then, as means get a rep as a liability through lack of this knowledge that the game is balanced around, they get kicked from every single lobby. Community shrinks, we all suffer.

Why not just balance towards the regular, and make reload canceling harder to do or something. Risker. I don't care. I think it's fine, as long as no one claims something to be balanced of you reload cancel.

Yes, well, it is easy on its own, not mindless, since you can still screw it up, but very easy. Taking cover is also easy, shooting guns at enemies isn't very hard either. It's about combining all of this together, coordinate, that is where skill begins - when you try to reload cancel before the click, you just wasted half of reload time, and have to reload from the start. Something I never do when shooting from cover at two Assault Troopers. Something I happen to do, when I run from Brute, and closing Banshee is looking at me funny.

New players know nothing, that's what makes them new They have no idea that Graal ignores armor dr, or that Smart Choke on GPS is useless. They have no idea about shield gate, and that shotties bypass it. Games are created like that - basic stuff is given, but everything else is up to players to explore. Every game has some scholars and gentlemen, like peddroelmz, tangster or grimy bunyip to experiment, test things, even check the actual game code and share their knowledge with willing to learn peasants like me. That's the whole fun.

And again, this game is NOT balanced around reload canceling. You can beat Gold fine without it. It is a bonus for the willing to make their game slightly more complicated.

[avenged100fold]

A more meaningful way to compare "intelligence" would be cortical surface, but we don't have any live brains. So we'll just have to settle for comparing what we do have, such as tools. Funny thing is, "intelligence" has very little to do with the ability to survive, especially in retrospective. Take crocodiles and sharks, for instance. Or bacteria.

Oh damn, you're right I forgot about surface area. Derp
Really humans only beat cromagnons be aide we were more aggressive :/
So yeah it was a ****ty comparison. I'll just use a ****** genius species that works better next time

[Quxorda]

avenged100fold wrote...

Game is balanced about normal reload speed. I agree with you that reload cancelling should be documented, but that's a different topic entirely. You missed my analogy. There are variable levels of performance, like in my example with headshots. There is a level when you're not good enough to win, like missing most of your shots, there is a level when you hit more often then miss, while taking cover when needed, and that is baseline to win. But games like this aren't just about losing/winning, you can get better score, better clearing time. That is where advanced features, like reload canceling, good ratio of headshots, perfect power usage come into play.

I can definitely agree with most of that.
Thing is, it's easy to perform. And if it's balanced towards it, it is assumed most will do it. So why add a level of complexity, that in the long run, when the game gets balance around it by difficulty or something, means new players will have significantly less ability to do well, not knowing about the trick. Then, as means get a rep as a liability through lack of this knowledge that the game is balanced around, they get kicked from every single lobby. Community shrinks, we all suffer.

Why not just balance towards the regular, and make reload canceling harder to do or something. Risker. I don't care. I think it's fine, as long as no one claims something to be balanced of you reload cancel.

Because none of that is true. You are giving reload canceling far far to much weight. You could solo gold without reload canceling. It's not a matter of being able to play, it's a matter of increasing performance just for the sake of self-improvement.  You are making it out to be this make or break game changing thing, it isn't nearly that.. it's a meager difference in points between a canceler and a non- canceler that are otherwise equally skilled players. And as Clive Anderson once said - "The points don't matter".

Transairion wrote...

This is not PvP. This is vs AI. Why
the heck do you need to reload faster than animated? You don't. The
scoreboard is basically meaningless, so what can't we all just use the
same animations yaknow? They put them in there to begin with, if you
don't want us to use them then wtf put them there.
 

Again as I said, because it's fun.

Modifié par Quxorda, 16 juin 2012 - 09:37 .

[avenged100fold]

Oh god, GENUS

stupid iPhone keep hitting I when I want u and then autocorrects it

I look like an idiot now

[CeeO-connor]

Thanks, player soldo9149!

[avenged100fold]

Because none of that is true. You are giving reload canceling far far to much weight. You could solo gold without reload canceling. It's not a matter of being able to play, it's a matter of increasing performance just for the sake of self-improvement.  You are making it out to be this make or break game changing thing, it isn't nearly that.. it's a meager difference in points between a canceler and a non- canceler that are otherwise equally skilled players. And as Clive Anderson once said - "The points don't matter".

Yeah, your probably right at this point. I don't think he himself has actually stated that the game is balanced that way.

I'm just nervous someone will use a gun that is good with a reload cancel and make it OP, people demand bergs, Bioware caves, weapon sucks for most.

Guess I'm slippery sloping.

But I do believe for the claymore and widen it can make a big difference.

And points slightly matter in that they decide the perception of whether or not you are an assett or not. It's particularly an issue for me because I do support roles a lot, and generally either just go around removing shields for snipers to finish them, constant outing up defensive powers, setting up combos, or using powers to reduce an enemies dr. In games like that, it can look like I've not been an assett to the team.
Which can get people kicked (has not happened yet to me though) or just make me feel bad.

[avenged100fold]

So many typos... I need a keyboard

Oh god

Oh lord

Did I

I did

I put your instead of you're

Excuse me I'm off to hara-kiri

[avenged100fold]

****, iPhone, really? I've nerfs in a billion times, a d you autocorrect it to berg? ****.

All right, if that's all, I say we adjourn. It needs no changes, it's just weird and people make bad arguments about it. We all good?

All right huddle up team, BSN on five.
One,two,three,four,FIVE

[avenged100fold]

Hope we are all leaving on good terms. See you all around. Maybe we'll be on the other/same sides of the argument next time.

[Quxorda]

avenged100fold wrote...

Because none of that is true. You are giving reload canceling far far to much weight. You could solo gold without reload canceling. It's not a matter of being able to play, it's a matter of increasing performance just for the sake of self-improvement.  You are making it out to be this make or break game changing thing, it isn't nearly that.. it's a meager difference in points between a canceler and a non- canceler that are otherwise equally skilled players. And as Clive Anderson once said - "The points don't matter".

Yeah, your probably right at this point. I don't think he himself has actually stated that the game is balanced that way.

I'm just nervous someone will use a gun that is good with a reload cancel and make it OP, people demand bergs, Bioware caves, weapon sucks for most.

Guess I'm slippery sloping.

But I do believe for the claymore and widen it can make a big difference.

And points slightly matter in that they decide the perception of whether or not you are an assett or not. It's particularly an issue for me because I do support roles a lot, and generally either just go around removing shields for snipers to finish them, constant outing up defensive powers, setting up combos, or using powers to reduce an enemies dr. In games like that, it can look like I've not been an assett to the team.
Which can get people kicked (has not happened yet to me though) or just make me feel bad.

In both situations it would make more sense to lobby for the removal or retuning of the points/scoreboard system rather then reload canceling in my opinion. Part of the reason the point system is so silly is because it does nothing to take support rolls into account. A well played Geth medic engineer or Asari Justicar are just as valuable to a team, if not more so, then a reload canceling shotgunner.

As for the fears about the gun, I'd say if that was going to happen then it would have already with the Krysae. As we've seen though, it was hardly the case and the nerf to it was well restrained (60 point reduction, certainly no over reaction). Well not to the gun anyway, Hunter Mode taking a stray bullet was certainly odd and unwarrented.

[Rifneno]

Fun fact: Combos in fighting games were initially a bug. Seriously. Street Fighter 2. There was a way to do some simple combo but it was totally unintended and the devs left it in because it was so hard to do they thought no one would bother. Boy were they wrong. By the time the first of the 173,950 remakes of Street Fighter 2 hit the shelves, it officially went from "bug" to "feature" and they added some new ones. Now the genre is about combos.

Reload canceling is here to stay. It may have been unintended to begin with but that they put it back in for a whole new game very clearly means it's intended this time. Deal with it, primitive.

[A Wild Snorlax]

Typical scrub talk

[Shadow Shep]

Nope, Chuck Testa.

[AdamWeith]

Trakarg wrote...
It isn't interesting to tap my medigel key during every reload. It's just... tedious.

One time, I was shot down just as I was about to reload cancel. The ability I used to cancel was the medi-gel, so I instantly used up my last medi-gel in that moment. And there were team mates around me, so I would've been revived anyway.

And as fate would have it, I was the last survivor during a hectic last minute on Wave 10. I managed to enable the last device before a Phantom and a turret liquidated me and forced me to lie in shame without medi-gels, so at least we got all the money.

But the money is unimportant - OUR HONOR WAS FOREVER DAMAGED BEYOND REPAIR.
We failed the mission.

Modifié par AdamWeith, 16 juin 2012 - 12:05 .

[budzai]

how can somebody call a bug GAME MEHANIC?? LOL idiots...

[Someone With Mass]

I personally can't see what's so bad about it. If anything, it increases my chances for survival in some cases.

[Hexi-decimal]

LOL, this is a funny argument to me since I am a fighting game player, a genre LITTERED with little tricks like this. Everyone can understand the basics but the little tricks are never ever mentioned in any fighting game, like Negative edge, or option selects.

So for others, what seems like a stupid mechanic since it is veiled, not overly well known and not part of the "core" mechanic, to me instead looks like a genius layer of game play making everything more rich and complex.

Modifié par Hexi-decimal, 16 juin 2012 - 12:11 .

[Jonathan Shepard]

I find it annoying that they actually dismiss it so readily, and don't see it as a problem. However, I don't mind it being there considering it's not hard to use. I don't think BioWare needs to get rid of it, but I think a lot of people would certainly be upset if they did. It's not game breaking at all anyway-- it's there for everyone to use, and not hard to figure out.

[sclera]

Hexi-decimal wrote...

LOL, this is a funny argument to me since I am a fighting game player, a genre LITTERED with little tricks like this. Everyone can understand the basics but the little tricks are never ever mentioned in any fighting game, like Negative edge, or option selects.

Same here man haha, the idea of removing something like reload canceling is just absurd to me. 

[Hexi-decimal]

Rifneno wrote...

Fun fact: Combos in fighting games were initially a bug. Seriously. Street Fighter 2. There was a way to do some simple combo but it was totally unintended and the devs left it in because it was so hard to do they thought no one would bother. Boy were they wrong. By the time the first of the 173,950 remakes of Street Fighter 2 hit the shelves, it officially went from "bug" to "feature" and they added some new ones. Now the genre is about combos.

Reload canceling is here to stay. It may have been unintended to begin with but that they put it back in for a whole new game very clearly means it's intended this time. Deal with it, primitive.

They weren't really bugs, just an unintended mechanic that happened due to the number of frames it took for moves to come out.  They were really difficult however, as in you had 1on or 2 frames in which to do the input necessary to make two things link as a combo, as in 1/60th of a second.  

But what was an unintended mechanic, as you said become a staple mechanic.

But yeah, pretty much what you said.

Modifié par Hexi-decimal, 16 juin 2012 - 12:22 .

[Satirist]

don't know what the point of this discussion is. even if it was considered a bug, bioware wouldn't fix it - or for that matter, fix anything at all. so why bother?