224 réponses à ce sujet

[Jerrybnsn]

Vormaerin wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Jerrybnsn wrote...

Race options are cool. Not having them is uncool.

Yes, I don't see why anyone would argue against more options.

No one is.

I, at least, am arguing that race options that don't change anything except the character's appearance are kind of pointless, but I don't have a problem with them as long as they are presented as such.   For example, BG's  "you can be any race you want, but you are still the same orphan raised in Candlekeep."

What I do have a problem with is when the race options are presented as representing genuine change in the character's culture, but then the game does not back that up.   I would love a Dalish or Orzammar Dwarf option that reflects Dalish or Orzammar culture throughout the playthrough.

What I do not want is to be told you are a tribal Dalish, then have all that culture stripped away so you can share 99% of your dialogue with every other origin.  I think that's the worst possible option.  You sacrifice the advantages of a tailored story without actually getting the benefits of different experiences.

You're saying you want an all Dalish experince expansion?  Sort of make the game centered around Dalish cultural and ideals?  Sort of like, Hawke as experience only in the human culture and ideals?

[Jerrybnsn]

Didn't you feel like you were treated quite differently when you went home to the alienage in Denerim, then you did when you showed up as a human? As an elf, I knew these people, they knew me. Where is my father!!!!

[Vormaerin]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

You're saying you want an all Dalish experince expansion?  Sort of make the game centered around Dalish cultural and ideals?  Sort of like, Hawke as experience only in the human culture and ideals?

I'm saying that if you are going to give me an option to be Chasind or Dalish or whatever, you should write dialogue trees that support that.  I should not speak exactly like Lord Cousland's son.   Other characters should not talk to me the same way as they would Lord Cousland's son.

DAO had a few bits of extra dialogue in certain places, but nearly the entire game you spoke and were treated the same regardless.   The people in the alienage saying hi doesn't make my character feel different.    Why is my Dalish character never referring to the Dalish gods?  Or using halla analogies in conversation.  Or breaking out into a string of oaths in elvish?

If you were locked into a first person view and could never see your character, how long do you think you would play DAO before something in the dialogues alerted you to what race you were?  A pretty damn long time unless you just happened to enter one of the handful of trigger points for your particular background.

[Jerrybnsn]

Vormaerin wrote...

I'm saying that if you are going to give me an option to be Chasind or Dalish or whatever, you should write dialogue trees that support that.  I should not speak exactly like Lord Cousland's son.   Other characters should not talk to me the same way as they would Lord Cousland's son.

Doesn't King Caillian ask you different questions according to your origin?  A human noble; how is your father?   Or the alienage elf; how is the alienage? 

[wsandista]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...

I'm saying that if you are going to give me an option to be Chasind or Dalish or whatever, you should write dialogue trees that support that.  I should not speak exactly like Lord Cousland's son.   Other characters should not talk to me the same way as they would Lord Cousland's son.

Doesn't King Caillian ask you different questions according to your origin?  A human noble; how is your father?   Or the alienage elf; how is the alienage? 

Yes, but some want entirely different dialogue options for every situation.

[Nefla]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

Didn't you feel like you were treated quite differently when you went home to the alienage in Denerim, then you did when you showed up as a human? As an elf, I knew these people, they knew me. Where is my father!!!!

I totally agree! Each race and origin felt unique enough to me to really give a lot of replay value to the game. For instance there is a random priest at Ostagar you can talk to who will offer to bless you, if you're a dwarf you can say "as you can see, mine are Dwarven kin" if you're an elf, you can say something like "you administer your blessings to elves do you?" and when she says yes, the maker blesses all, you can say "and does he destroy the homeland of those who will not accept?" There are tidbits like that throughout the entire game and I totally loved it. I don't expect your race/origin to affect every scenario, many times it would be irrelevant.

I really REALLY want race selection. It would be one of the deciding factors for me buying DA3. Though I would be fine being defaulted into one race as long as it was anything but human. I'm human in real life. Everyone is human in real life and everyone they know is human. Humans are same-old same-old. We are a human in 99.9% of all games and it's boring.

[Vormaerin]

wsandista wrote...

Jerrybnsn wrote...

Doesn't King Caillian ask you different questions according to your origin?  A human noble; how is your father?   Or the alienage elf; how is the alienage? 

Yes, but some want entirely different dialogue options for every situation.

No, it doesn't have to be every situation, but it needs to be often enough that you feel like you are actually part of a different culture.   Yeah, there are a handful of triggers that react to your background.  How often is what you say different? 

Do you honestly feel like you are playing someone from another culture when you are a Dalish or a Dwarf?  It feels to me like I'm playing a human from a different neighborhood of the same society.  Largely because what my character is allowed to say is the same for everyone.   There's no indication of different cultural perceptions.

In the Traveller RPG, there is a race nicknamed the Aslan (because they are very vaguely like humanoid lions).   Not only do they look different than humans, but they have a different culture.  They value things differently.  They are still a race designed to be RPed by humans, so they aren't totally weird.  But there are enough hooks that you'd never think you were playing a human while RPing one.   One example is that they have very strong views on gender roles in the workforce.  Financial matters and "craft" jobs are for females.   Piloting and hunting are for males.    This is so engrained that without lots of experience with humans, they identify human genders the same way.    A man repairing a radio will probably be referred to as "she."    If you try to talk to an Aslan male about money, he'll be confused and look for his wife or sister to help.

If the Dalish are really just pointy eared humans that roam around with deer instead of cows, fine.  But if they aren't, it should be obvious in how they speak.    Why does the Dalish warden never mention an elvish god or the halla? Or fail to understand some human cultural thing we all take for granted?  Or use any of the elvish terms that the NPCs use? 

As I said, you always use city elves from the servant classes and surface dwarves if you want them to have a human culture.  Then you could get away with a few smatterings of racial matters.

But my Orzammar dwarf never talks about the Stone or the Ancestors, never calls a human "cloudhead," doesn't invoke any Paragons....   What's dwarven about him except his shape?

I just want the character to match the story.   If you only have one dialogue tree, don't create three or four very different culture options for the character that has to use it.

[labargegrrrl]

to answer original post...YES. no more bs excuses about graphics or voice acting or framed narratives or any other lame justifications that could have been worked around if they actually wanted to. just f*ing do it. i actually almost missed out on DA2 altogether b/c i was intent on throwing an fan tantrum over that particular issue. and while i'm glad i changed my mind and got it anyway, it was the one thing that truly never sat well with me. and i'll probably buy and play DA3 either way, but i want the race option back. its fantasy. i can be human in my actual life.

Modifié par labargegrrrl, 23 juin 2012 - 08:51 .

[Jerrybnsn]

Vormaerin wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Jerrybnsn wrote...

Doesn't King Caillian ask you different questions according to your origin?  A human noble; how is your father?   Or the alienage elf; how is the alienage? 

Yes, but some want entirely different dialogue options for every situation.

No, it doesn't have to be every situation, but it needs to be often enough that you feel like you are actually part of a different culture.   

It feels to me like I'm playing a human from a different neighborhood of the same society.  Largely because what my character is allowed to say is the same for everyone.   There's no indication of different cultural perceptions.

Do you want the dialogue tree to be written in Dalish? to make you feel more like you are a dalish elf?

As an elf I noticed I was often given responses to refer to someone as "shem" if they were human. But you may have wanted more of that.  Maybe the DA team should have worked on race options more for a deeper role playing experience than to just get rid of it entirely.

[AkiKishi]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Jerrybnsn wrote...

Doesn't King Caillian ask you different questions according to your origin?  A human noble; how is your father?   Or the alienage elf; how is the alienage? 

Yes, but some want entirely different dialogue options for every situation.

No, it doesn't have to be every situation, but it needs to be often enough that you feel like you are actually part of a different culture.   

It feels to me like I'm playing a human from a different neighborhood of the same society.  Largely because what my character is allowed to say is the same for everyone.   There's no indication of different cultural perceptions.

Do you want the dialogue tree to be written in Dalish? to make you feel more like you are a dalish elf?

As an elf I noticed I was often given responses to refer to someone as "shem" if they were human. But you may have wanted more of that.  Maybe the DA team should have worked on race options more for a deeper role playing experience than to just get rid of it entirely.

Detailing the races like that would essentially be writing race*X number of characters. When you consider that only around 15-20% of people played those races, then it's not a very likely scenerio.

Have your elf "skin" who talks the same as a human 90% of the time and that's a completely different and more realistic goal.

[Jerrybnsn]

you keep bringing up cost analysist for whether to do an rpg element or not. Is your job in real life a bean counter for a company that is always shooting down the R&D department? Writing in about a half dozen pages of dialogue for different races shouldn't bankrupt EA. As Mr. Gaider stated on the "Is VO a must in DA3?", having a VO doesn't effect the cost of having race options very much. DA2 only had a human option because they felt it was necessary to tell a stronger story.

[Vormaerin]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Jerrybnsn wrote...

Do you want the dialogue tree to be written in Dalish? to make you feel more like you are a dalish elf?

As an elf I noticed I was often given responses to refer to someone as "shem" if they were human. But you may have wanted more of that.  Maybe the DA team should have worked on race options more for a deeper role playing experience than to just get rid of it entirely.

Detailing the races like that would essentially be writing race*X number of characters. When you consider that only around 15-20% of people played those races, then it's not a very likely scenerio.

Have your elf "skin" who talks the same as a human 90% of the time and that's a completely different and more realistic goal.

Yes, I am aware of that.   Since I have no interest in just a "skin", my preference is that if its unrealistic to do more than reskin the human character and sprinkle a dozen sentences throughout the game, then please focus instead on making a character with tighter connection to the story and fewer racial reskins.

Or establish that the reskins are the same culture as the human protagonist like was done in BG and NWN2.  

I just want what is presented to match what is delivered.  An Orzammar dwarf experience was not, imho, delivered by the sprinkling of dialogue changes that came with the character background.   A surface dwarf from Denerim would have made more sense with the RP options we were given.   Which is too bad, because I think the dwarf origins were amongst the best done.  But there was minimal follow through.

I'd love the devs to put out a massive game with four or five distinctive race/culture options.  I am also aware that's problably not realistic.   So I am offering my opinion that it would be better to align the options with what is reasonable rather than give out options that aren't able to be fleshed out.

[AkiKishi]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

you keep bringing up cost analysist for whether to do an rpg element or not. Is your job in real life a bean counter for a company that is always shooting down the R&D department? Writing in about a half dozen pages of dialogue for different races shouldn't bankrupt EA. As Mr. Gaider stated on the "Is VO a must in DA3?", having a VO doesn't effect the cost of having race options very much. DA2 only had a human option because they felt it was necessary to tell a stronger story.

Not quite but I do have a budget and need to focus where spending goes to make the most of it.

Lines have to paid for. If you use the same lines as you used for the human protagonist, then there is no extra cost.
If you write race specific lines, then there is.

The cost is not having races. It's in how they are implemented and to what extent. If Bioware want to include them they will, whether or not people will be happy with what they get as far as race specific options go , well that's something else.

[Jerrybnsn]

Vormaerin wrote...

I'd love the devs to put out a massive game with four or five distinctive race/culture options.  I am also aware that's problably not realistic.   So I am offering my opinion that it would be better to align the options with what is reasonable rather than give out options that aren't able to be fleshed out.

I saw Origins as a game that brought all cultures and races together and you (the hero of the story) interacted with them with enough nuances to recognize that difference.  For instance, when you first enter the Daish camp in the Brecclean (sp?) Forest.  A human leading the group, received a hostile reception.  A fellow Dalish was welcome cordially although they were suspicious of the other humans.  An alienage elf was derided while their elf race was recognized.  A dwarf?  i don't know, I never played a dwarf to the part of the game.

[Vormaerin]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

I saw Origins as a game that brought all cultures and races together and you (the hero of the story) interacted with them with enough nuances to recognize that difference.  For instance, when you first enter the Daish camp in the Brecclean (sp?) Forest.  A human leading the group, received a hostile reception.  A fellow Dalish was welcome cordially although they were suspicious of the other humans.  An alienage elf was derided while their elf race was recognized.  A dwarf?  i don't know, I never played a dwarf to the part of the game.

Okay.  So they did enough to satisfy you.   Either you do not know what I am asking for or you don't want/need it.  That's fine. 

I'm not disputing that there were some differences.  I simply find them minimal and, largely, external to the character.  I don't feel like the player character expressed adequate differences in behavior/speech to reflect the widely divergent cultural backgrounds.   My dwarf didn't, for most of the game, talk the way the NPCs dwarves did.   I didn't do a full playthrough with a dalish, but it didn't seem like it was going to be any different as far as I went.

[Jerrybnsn]

Vormaerin wrote...

I'm not disputing that there were some differences.  I simply find them minimal and, largely, external to the character.  I don't feel like the player character expressed adequate differences in behavior/speech to reflect the widely divergent cultural backgrounds.   My dwarf didn't, for most of the game, talk the way the NPCs dwarves did.   I didn't do a full playthrough with a dalish, but it didn't seem like it was going to be any different as far as I went.

Just how different would a dwarf handle the situaltion with the Arl of Redmon being in a coma as compared to a human noble or an alienage elf?  The situation and the need for action seemed to be the point of interaction rather than what race you belonged to.  It seemed that a personal response was what would be required rather than a racial response.  Do you help him or let him die and his brother becomes the Arl?  Personal preference and choice matters with this aspect of the game rather than a sterotypical preference.

[Truth]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

What I have been gathering here on this is that those who dont want race options are concerned with losing VO.

Then there is those such as myself that dont want to lose race options (again) for the sake of VO.

The compromise would be to allow race options and put up with just one actor and actress playing all races.

+1 for you OP

Modifié par Truth, 23 juin 2012 - 02:32 .

[Solas]

 I would like there to be a race option, definitely.

[Fast Jimmy]

I would prefer multiple origins in DA3. Whether race plays an impact in those Origins is just icing inthe cake.

If the game plays like DA2, with a pretty set and defined character story and mindset, and then only had a few token references to race, that would be a waste.

If the game plays like DA:O, where your background (not just your race) can lead to different beginning sequences, interactions and comments, that would be great.

If DA3 is an even more refined version of DA:O, where your origin/background is truly visible and is visceral to the experience, while giving us the options of many races, and kept the VO in the game (without hamfisted paraphrasing)... well, I would preorder the Collector's Editions right now, please and thank you.

And... if they added branching storylines to this based on choice, plus non-combat skills like sneak, speech and repair/mechanical knowhow and put in a Construction/Toolkit, I'd preorder two copies, one for console and PC.

Chances are we'll get DA2.1 with DA3, and I'll go my currently planned route of renting it from Gamefly for a week and then returning it because it has zero replay value.

[Jerrybnsn]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

If DA3 is an even more refined version of DA:O, where your origin/background is truly visible and is visceral to the experience, while giving us the options of many races, and kept the VO in the game (without hamfisted paraphrasing)... well, I would preorder the Collector's Editions right now, please and thank you.

...............

Chances are we'll get DA2.1 with DA3, and I'll go my currently planned route of renting it from Gamefly for a week and then returning it because it has zero replay value.

That's what they should have been doing to make DA2, "a more refined version of DA:O"....

And I'm concerned also that  DA3 will just be another DA2 clone with larger maps and allows you to equip your party members with "icon" equipment.  Not much of an improvement really, when they have a long way to go to get back to the Origins' standard.

Modifié par Jerrybnsn, 23 juin 2012 - 09:52 .

[Vormaerin]

Jerrybnsn wrote...


Just how different would a dwarf handle the situaltion with the Arl of Redmon being in a coma as compared to a human noble or an alienage elf?  .

The actual actions? Probably little different.  But the conversation?  Consider that a dwarf has no connection to the Fade... they don't have demonic possession, abominations, mages, or any of the problems that afflict Redcliffe.   They also have a different view of family and honor.    Don't you think any of that might just affect how the conversation goes?

[Realmzmaster]

Vormaerin wrote...

Jerrybnsn wrote...


Just how different would a dwarf handle the situaltion with the Arl of Redmon being in a coma as compared to a human noble or an alienage elf?  .

The actual actions? Probably little different.  But the conversation?  Consider that a dwarf has no connection to the Fade... they don't have demonic possession, abominations, mages, or any of the problems that afflict Redcliffe.   They also have a different view of family and honor.    Don't you think any of that might just affect how the conversation goes?

Dwarves have a resistance to magic (because of the lack of connection to the Fade) which should make it harder (not impossible)  to send a dwarf into the Fade. The First Enchanter should have suggested of  (in conversation) sending someone who is not of dwarven hertiage to aid Connor, since it would be easier to do so. That conversation never occurs.

[ianvillan]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

you keep bringing up cost analysist for whether to do an rpg element or not. Is your job in real life a bean counter for a company that is always shooting down the R&D department? Writing in about a half dozen pages of dialogue for different races shouldn't bankrupt EA. As Mr. Gaider stated on the "Is VO a must in DA3?", having a VO doesn't effect the cost of having race options very much. DA2 only had a human option because they felt it was necessary to tell a stronger story.

But a lot of fans and even reviewers said the story in DA2 was a weaker story overall. And I add that having a Human only protagonist actually weakened it, what can people say Human only origin actually provided to make the story better that a Elf or Dwarf couldn't.

[AkiKishi]

ianvillan wrote...

Jerrybnsn wrote...

you keep bringing up cost analysist for whether to do an rpg element or not. Is your job in real life a bean counter for a company that is always shooting down the R&D department? Writing in about a half dozen pages of dialogue for different races shouldn't bankrupt EA. As Mr. Gaider stated on the "Is VO a must in DA3?", having a VO doesn't effect the cost of having race options very much. DA2 only had a human option because they felt it was necessary to tell a stronger story.

But a lot of fans and even reviewers said the story in DA2 was a weaker story overall. And I add that having a Human only protagonist actually weakened it, what can people say Human only origin actually provided to make the story better that a Elf or Dwarf couldn't.

I think the theory is sound. But DA2 was just a poor story period.

[philippe willaume]

A race option would be great. (If that is too much of a financial burden well DLC it.)

DA:2 story was no weaker per say, however the actual realisation was.
The ACTIII was poor compared to the other two acts and the end game gave the feeling that it was rushed. So it was kind of deflated if you compare it to the end of ACTII.

Phil