381 réponses à ce sujet

[jstme]

MisterJB wrote...

jstme wrote...
There is such a concept as justice. Murdering multitude of innocents in horrible ways demands justice.

Justice doesn't equal murder.
Will commiting genocide bring the people the Cycle killed back? No, you will just be killing the last living remnants of their civilizations.
 

 Justice means justice. In my Shepard's opinion, end of existence is what Catalyst deserved loooong time ago.
 

 

 

If reapers were nothing more then an indoctrinated tool, they were Catalyst tools. Catalyst still needs to answer for what he did. Whether reapers are indoctrinated or are just a tool of catalyst - you had no ethical problem of killing indoctrinated living creatures or husks. How different is destroying the reapers to get the catalyst and kill indoctinated cerberus troops? 

The Catalyst "dies" in all endings.

Catalyst destruction in green ending is your speculation. Nothing mentions it. And if indoctrinated reapers are not destroyed then there is no reason to assume that their master is gone. 

 

  
Instead you deliberately killed entire form of existence that you were part of. You just killed organic life as a concept.  I would say that ethics and formoflifecide do not go hand in hand. 

It was changed, improved. There is nothing wrong with that.

After green ending there is no organic life. Individuals are changed - "improved", if you like. Organic life is no more. It is removed,destroyed. This is the very essence of green ending solution - stopping advanced organics from creating rebelling syntheitics by removing all organic life. If you do not understand it this way you should try to explain me what glowing green "improved" tree leaves do there.

You just gave entire galatcic civilisation future and hope. Realys are gone, citadel is gone but people are alive, trees are green in normal way and reapers et Catalyst and their solutions are no more.
In synthesis you killed all organic life. And organo-synthetics ,via those precious upgrades, will become full synthetics in a short time. Plus ,all the suicides due to choice to rape  their organism with green wave are ultimately your moral responisbility.

What an unbiased statement. Allow me to be just as unbiased.
In Destroy, you just plunged the galaxy into the Dark Ages. Once the species realized they are trapped, anarchy will ensure. War will be fought for the dwindling resources. Billions will starve because their worlds; Tuchanka, for instance; relied on the Relay Network to survive, etc.

There is nothing that indicates anyone will become full synthetic anytime soon.

People are always going to commit suicide. Maybe they do it because they can't live with the horrors of war or the loss of a loved one or because they just couldn't accept synthesis.
It's tragic but it's also no one's fault but theirs.

In destroy, people have free will and whatever will happen - dark age, wars - will happen on their terms. No Catalyst and its solutions any more. Billions might starve but they will have kids and kids will have future.
Kids and future after green wave is a big IF - kids are one of the ways that evolution created to allow (organic) life to adapt and evolve. Once adaptation and evolving will be done by just getting another upgrade need for offsprings will be less prominent.
This is my speculation, nothing more then that.
But what is not speculation is that there will bo no future nor hope for organic life anymore, because there will be NO organic life. "Improved" creatures will be different form of existence - from trees to Vorcha.  
As for nothing indicating anyone becoming full syntetic anytime soon - this is the only possible outcome. Life that became "improved"  via some upgrades will be even more "improved" by other upgrades,stands to reason. there will be no reason to keep squishy organic inferiour parts that are in a way of "improving". Nothing wrong with that,right?  

Modifié par jstme, 16 juin 2012 - 08:23 .

[Taboo]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

The Star Gazer scene takes place ten thousand years in the future.

It isn't going to happen in the near future.

Stop bull****ting me.

Oh please. The tacked-on Stargazer scene is hardly evidence of ANYTHING. We have no information on what's going on.

How about if I use it as evidence that people post-synthesis are functioning completely the same way they would pre-synth, and therefore, proves that it was not a terrible/traumatic change - would you accept it?

The Stargazer scene is there to canonize ALL Shepards. Or were you not paying attention?

No. And this is why.

The vacuum created by the arrival of freedom
And the possibilities it seems to offer
It's got nothing to do with you, if one can grasp it
It's got nothing to do with you, if one can grasp it

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 16 juin 2012 - 08:14 .

[KingZayd]

Ieldra2 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Joe Del Toro wrote...
By that logic, all the choices are vengeance driven because in every one of them we are led to believe the Reapers are stopped.

Don't make laugh. Synthesis sets them free - and they leave. Which indicates that they'd been controlled in some way by the Catalyst. And *that* should give you pause.

The Reapers aren't "monsters". They're the enslaved minds of countless organic species. Think about what you're killing - the living history of advanced organic life in the galaxy since the time the Reapers first appeared. If that's not abominable, I don't know what is.

Yeah, I know there are counterarguments against this. But they're no better than mine. And some are worse.

We see them leaving the battle. For all you know they're just baffled by the greenwave and are retreating until they figure it's safe.

There is no way of knowing if they're going to come back.

That's a non-argument. All endings end the Reaper threat. Both your only in-world source (the Catalyst) and your only out-of-world source (the game itself) tell you so. There is absolutely no ambiguity about that.

Becomes a legend for ending the Reaper threat. For all you know Stargazer learned this story off something found in a ruin. The Reapers came back after an indefinite amount of time and killed most people. Shepard and his people have the mythical status resembling the "Enkindlers" of the next cycle.

The Starchild is not exactly a non-biased entity.

[MisterJB]

Kerasth wrote...

 Everyone in the galaxy, organic and synthetic, understand the stakes in this war. EDI and every geth program know, and are at peace with, the fact that their deaths might be required to end the Reaper threat. Better they die to assure the end of the Reapers, than risk their lives on something that allows those things  to live on.

No species is willing to accept extinction for anything. In fact, the geth chose to ally with the Reapers instead. 

One measly human can't control that many minds, even we have trouble controlling our own, and sythesis is as horrifying as a brain transplant. Much as your body may annoy you at times, it's still yours. Waking up as something else would almost certainly shatter an individual's sanity.

My God, these comparisons....
It is still their bodies. Yes, it has a few green lines now, how very sanity shattering.
Shall we look how Joker and EDI are doing? Wait, they seem to be fine.

[frylock23]

MisterJB wrote...

Kerasth wrote...

 Everyone in the galaxy, organic and synthetic, understand the stakes in this war. EDI and every geth program know, and are at peace with, the fact that their deaths might be required to end the Reaper threat. Better they die to assure the end of the Reapers, than risk their lives on something that allows those things  to live on.

No species is willing to accept extinction for anything. In fact, the geth chose to ally with the Reapers instead. 

One measly human can't control that many minds, even we have trouble controlling our own, and sythesis is as horrifying as a brain transplant. Much as your body may annoy you at times, it's still yours. Waking up as something else would almost certainly shatter an individual's sanity.

My God, these comparisons....
It is still their bodies. Yes, it has a few green lines now, how very sanity shattering.
Shall we look how Joker and EDI are doing? Wait, they seem to be fine.

You said it yourself - No species is willing to accept extinction for anything. So, why are they all hunky dory with Synthesis which is a very real extinction? You are re-writing their DNA which is making that species extinct.

[KeraWildmane]

MisterJB wrote...

Kerasth wrote...
One measly human can't control that many minds, even we have trouble controlling our own, and sythesis is as horrifying as a brain transplant. Much as your body may annoy you at times, it's still yours. Waking up as something else would almost certainly shatter an individual's sanity.

My God, these comparisons....
It is still their bodies. Yes, it has a few green lines now, how very sanity shattering.
Shall we look how Joker and EDI are doing? Wait, they seem to be fine.

Grayson and thousands of other Cerberus victims would argue that Joker was an exception, not the rule.

Modifié par Kerasth, 16 juin 2012 - 08:26 .

[MisterJB]

jstme wrote...
 Justice means justice. In my Shepard's opinion, end of existence is what Catalyst deserved loooong time ago.

I think your Shepard is wrong. Altough its methods were brutal, the Catalyst might have saved organic life. Its motives mittigates its crime.
Killing is too wasteful. Having the Reapers help galactic civilization rebuild is better.
 

 
Catalyst destruction in green ending is your speculation. Nothing mentions it. And if indoctrinated reapers are not destroyed then there is no reason to assume that their master is gone. 

 
The Citadel is destroyed. That is a reason to assume it's gone.
It could have survived, sure.

  
After green ending there is no organic life. Individuals are changed - "improved", if you like. Organic life is no more. It is removed,destroyed. This is the very essence of green ending solution - stopping advanced organics from creating rebelling syntheitics by removing all organic life. If you do not understand it this way you should try to explain me what glowing green "improved" tree leaves do there.

There is nothing innherently good about a pure organic, nothing that makes its existence worthier than that of an hybrid.
Life is changed, yes, but I interpreted as the organic species being given synthetic upgrades that will enable us to compete with synthetics thus ensuring our survival. I saw it this way because of the original script that mentioned a technological singularity, not rebellious synthetics.

In destroy, people have free will and whatever will happen - dark age, wars - will happen on their terms. No Catalyst and its solutions any more. Billions might starve but they will have kids and kids will have future.

I never understood this. Freedom to kill ourselves, to commit our species to extinction? How is this good when there are other options?
And the children will be the first to go. They are weaker. I expect the female krogan will eat theirs, for instance.

Kids and future after green wave is a big IF - kids are one of the ways that evolution created to allow (organic) life to adapt and evolve. Once adaptation and evolving will be done by just getting another upgrade need for offsprings will be less prominent.

Unless Synthesis creates immortality and invicibility, reproduction is still necessary.
And, even if what you speak was true, Henry Lawson proved children can just be created.

As for nothing indicating anyone becoming full syntetic anytime soon - this is the only possible outcome. Life that became "improved"  via some upgrades will be even more "improved" by other upgrades,stands to reason. there will be no reason to keep squishy organic inferiour parts that are in a way of "improving". Nothing wrong with that,right?  

People have free will and whatever will happen, happens on their terms.
Besides, that might be where we are headed, even without Synthesis.

[Taboo]

You are not committing to the extinction of your species in Destroy.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 16 juin 2012 - 08:34 .

[o Ventus]

MisterJB wrote...

There is nothing innherently good about a pure organic, nothing that makes its existence worthier than that of an hybrid.

There's nothing inherently good about pure synthetics or hybrids either. Talk about a false dichotomy.

I never understood this. Freedom to kill ourselves, to commit our species to extinction?

What in the entire f*** are you talking about?

[MisterJB]

frylock23 wrote...
You said it yourself - No species is willing to accept extinction for anything. So, why are they all hunky dory with Synthesis which is a very real extinction? You are re-writing their DNA which is making that species extinct.

You're changing that species, not killing it.
That humans still look different from, say, turians proves their genetic makeup was not changed that much. Probrably just what was needed to incorporate the synthetic upgrades.
And again, what makes a pure organic more worthy of life than an hybrid?

Kerasth wrote...
Grayson and thousands of other Cerberus victims would argue that Joker was an exception, not the rule.

Not only was Grayson slowly Indocrinated, his physical changes were much more pronounced than anything we see in Synthesis.
What if Synthesis opens up the possibility of having Grayson's superhuman abilities without losing one's mind? Wouldn't that be wonderful?

[Jadebaby]

jtav wrote...

1. It is vengeance driven. Destroy-ers say I should kill the Reapers because “they deserve it.” Well, they are under control of the Catalyst the same way the indoctrinated are under control of the Reapers. The fact that Shepard can make them fly off in Control means that killing them is not necessary to ensure galactic stability or the survival of life. I’ve let some absolute weasels that I desperately wanted to kill go because of that. In my religious tradition, the death penalty is only to be employed if there is no other way to contain the criminal. Unfortunately for my temper, Reapers are included. And if they are indoctrinated, it becomes equivalent to executing the insane. Unlike previous encounters with the indoctrinated, this can end in a way other than death. The risk of Shepard losing control is there, as is the risk of the Reapers going nuts in Synthesis. But it is better to try the option that can save lives than certainly directly kill innocents. Also, the rachni queen, Maelon, and Balak were also gambles.
2. I deliberately killed an ally. Let’s make this as hard on me as possible and say the geth have already been wiped out. EDI still dies. People die in war, you say? EDI’s death is justified under the principle of double effect? Except there are other means to eliminate the threat that don’t result in EDI dying. Her death is not necessary and therefore not justified. And by the way, I just gave the next generation of AIs a good reason to hate organics.
3. I just trashed galactic civilization and offered nothing in return. The relays are gone. The Citadel is gone, as they are in Synthesis (Control is ambiguous, so let’s set that aside). But in Synthesis, I at least try to give organic life a leg up via upgrades. Destroy leaves them only with what they already had. Mass starvation and other ills are a direct and foreseeable consequence of my actions. Unlike any suicides, which are ultimately the responsibility of the suicider.

And, as a side note, I find any consent counterarguments spurious. If put to a vote, I’m fairly sure the rachni queen would be dead. The galaxy consented to the other two choices the moment it put its faith in the Crucible without having any idea of its function.

IF EC DLC doesn't incorporate IT and gives clarity and closure of face-value endings... I might indeed give control/synthesis a go, but until then

"The only good Reaper, is a dead Reaper." - Anderson.

The wisdom of a mentor... Star Wars fans could relate...

[Tealjaker94]

MisterJB wrote...

There is nothing innherently good about a pure organic, nothing that makes its existence worthier than that of an hybrid.

Then why is a technological singularity a problem? If organic life isn't inherently better why should you care if it might be replaced by synthetic life sometime in the future? 

[Taboo]

o Ventus wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

There is nothing innherently good about a pure organic, nothing that makes its existence worthier than that of an hybrid.

There's nothing inherently good about pure synthetics or hybrids either. Talk about a false dichotomy.

I never understood this. Freedom to kill ourselves, to commit our species to extinction?

What in the entire f*** are you talking about?

I can't top this. Quote for truth.

[KeraWildmane]

MisterJB wrote...

Kids and future after green wave is a big IF - kids are one of the ways that evolution created to allow (organic) life to adapt and evolve. Once adaptation and evolving will be done by just getting another upgrade need for offsprings will be less prominent.

Unless Synthesis creates immortality and invicibility, reproduction is still necessary.
And, even if what you speak was true, Henry Lawson proved children can just be created.

Immortality is a fate worse than death, though it would likely be a non-issue. A species that stagnates dies out. Constant evolution is necessary for survival.

[OH-UP-THIS!]

This OPINION is NOT based on IT!

Saren was indoctrinated, and driven to near insanity, by way of Reaper influence(Sovereign).
His idea of synthesis, pure, unadulterated nonsense. His mind was controlled into believing that this was a GOOD idea, when infact he was completely bats**t crazy.

TIM, same issue with the one exception, he was influenced into believing that 'control' WAS possible, and just another 'notch' in Harbingers' belt.

The only solution is to REMOVE the threat ENTIRELY, not some "space-magic" BS, but complete and total innihilation of a race of beings, capable of rendering everyone they contact, into nothing more than slaves.(or puree'd sustenance)

No, I'm sorry but ethics are why these 'things' are to removed from the Milky Way galaxy, not given some pseudo-hug, and sent to play with themselves.

[xXevildeeds19Xx]

Samtheman63 wrote...

EDI can't be killed as it is never alive, it will be destroyed.

If that upsets you, build another one

That is a close-minded view, She may have been created by machinery but we are just created by other organics. If something has gained awareness and has superior intelligence you can't just write it off.

[MisterJB]

Tealjaker94 wrote...
Then why is a technological singularity a problem? If organic life isn't inherently better why should you care if it might be replaced by synthetic life sometime in the future? 

Because I'm organic and we side with what is similar.

[Jadebaby]

Taboo-XX wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

The Star Gazer scene takes place ten thousand years in the future.

It isn't going to happen in the near future.

Stop bull****ting me.

Oh please. The tacked-on Stargazer scene is hardly evidence of ANYTHING. We have no information on what's going on.

How about if I use it as evidence that people post-synthesis are functioning completely the same way they would pre-synth, and therefore, proves that it was not a terrible/traumatic change - would you accept it?

The Stargazer scene is there to canonize ALL Shepards. Or were you not paying attention?

Not true, it only appears if imported or NG+

[Taboo]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

The Star Gazer scene takes place ten thousand years in the future.

It isn't going to happen in the near future.

Stop bull****ting me.

Oh please. The tacked-on Stargazer scene is hardly evidence of ANYTHING. We have no information on what's going on.

How about if I use it as evidence that people post-synthesis are functioning completely the same way they would pre-synth, and therefore, proves that it was not a terrible/traumatic change - would you accept it?

The Stargazer scene is there to canonize ALL Shepards. Or were you not paying attention?

Not true, it only appears if imported or NG+

That's why it's there. People who are importing ARE canonizing their Shepards. Do you understand?

[Taboo]

MisterJB wrote...

Tealjaker94 wrote...
Then why is a technological singularity a problem? If organic life isn't inherently better why should you care if it might be replaced by synthetic life sometime in the future? 

Because I'm organic and we side with what is similar.

Wrong.

You can easily side with the Geth on Rannoch.

Stop bull****ting.

[Tealjaker94]

MisterJB wrote...

Tealjaker94 wrote...
Then why is a technological singularity a problem? If organic life isn't inherently better why should you care if it might be replaced by synthetic life sometime in the future? 

Because I'm organic and we side with what is similar.

Then why do you support replacing all organic life with these "hybrids?" You want to save organic life by eliminating it?

[The Night Mammoth]

MisterJB wrote...

Tealjaker94 wrote...
Then why is a technological singularity a problem? If organic life isn't inherently better why should you care if it might be replaced by synthetic life sometime in the future? 

Because I'm organic and we side with what is similar.

I don't want you on my side. 

[MisterJB]

Tealjaker94 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Tealjaker94 wrote...
Then why is a technological singularity a problem? If organic life isn't inherently better why should you care if it might be replaced by synthetic life sometime in the future? 

Because I'm organic and we side with what is similar.

Then why do you support replacing all organic life with these "hybrids?" You want to save organic life by eliminating it?

I want to save organic life by improving it. Synthetic upgrades can be, objectivelly, determined as good. I'm not interested in "organic purity" in the sligthest.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

jtav wrote...

Does Synthesis seem unpleasant to you from the few seconds we see? Do you have any reason to believe it is unpleasant, particularly? More unpleasant than erasing an entire class of people? I say no. And I will not kill an innocent or ally while other options remain.

And killing the Reapers was never our goal. Let me explain: suppose the Crucible wiped out all life in the galaxy along with the Reapers. Would you not say it's better for the non-spacefaring species to exist another 50k years? For more life to evolve. So no, our goal was to prevent the Reapers from harvesting us. I choose the leasy violent method.

Uh, how can you say that killing the reapers was never our goal? What was your mission?

Admiral Hackett: "Dead Reapers is how we end this."
Admiral Anderson: "Dead Reapers is how we end this."

These are your superior officers. You are an Alliance officer. You report apparently directly to Admiral Hackett. This is your mission: Find a way to kill the reapers. You are a Spectre which gives you access to other resources.

Your assignment was not to merely prevent the reapers from harvesting us. You were indoctrinated, jtav.

And you're also using another strawman here. "suppose the Crucible wiped out all life in the galaxy along with the reapers...."  It didn't. That was not in the options. I'm pretty sure that if it were going to wipe out all life in the galaxy if you chose Destroy, that the little ****er would have made sure he told you that, because he wanted you to choose Green, and if not Green, then Blue.

Anyway, like I've said earlier, I didn't have to worry about the Geth. They were gone already. I may have been thinking like a simplistic old Alliance officer, but not 5 minutes earlier I was sitting next to a dear friend and mentor of mine while he bled to death. Now I don't know how that impacted you, but it impacted me a bit. It gave me a little reminder of my mission. That and the fact I was hurting pretty bad myself.

I tried talking some sense into that Catalyst at first, but he just wouldn't listen. So as far as I was concerned he was just the enemy trying to sway me from carrying out my mission by offering me these fancy alternatives. Now I hadn't been reading this forum at the time. I hadn't even been on this forum at the time, but I was suspecting he was trying to indoctrinate me. Why? He and his reaper toys got to survive in two of the scenarios while I died, and he and his reaper toys died in one of them. But he made those other two sound so wonderful. How could I resist?

Well, see, there are two kinds of stubborn in the world. There's normal stubborn, and there's Julia stubborn. So when he said I have a difficult choice to make, I'm thinking "like hell I do."

Letting them survive was weak, especially when you let them survive under control of the enemy. Sure he said the cycle would end. Did he say anything about them being free? NO HE DID NOT.

And this would overwrite EDI as well, and she had just told me an hour earlier that "I would rather be non-functional than overwritten." or something like that. It's been a couple months. So I didn't know how this was going to affect EDI anyway, just that it was going to destroy the Mass Relays, like it would with all the choices, but Destroy would destroy the enemy, and that's why I chose that.

And you get off scot free for choosing Synthesis, because you disobeyed your orders. You're dead now. They can't court martial you. You can't be held accountable.

[covertdrizzt]

I think its hilarious when people sympathise with the reapers. Anyone ever heard of stockholm syndrome? LOL