25 réponses à ce sujet

[sunnydxmen]

Example Anders he was spirit healer too and look what he did. what's with the double standard that blood mages are all evil and spirit healers are good. I think a spirit healer could drain the life force from enemies that don't have blood to heal them self's.they could summon spirits wynne did. they have those spirits attack people too having a bunch of spirits of justice attack people for what they deemed justice spirit healers could probably take someone soul to ren energize them, also the spirits they linked could turn into demons like Anders case too if there is strong enough.

[Realmzmaster]

Mages in general are considered dangerous. That is why the Chantry locks them all up, make some tranquil and remove others from existence. Blood mages are considered more dangerous even by fellow mages because the blood can be used to control people (including other mages) and make them do the mage's bidding. Spirits healers cannot control spirits, but only persuade them to aid the mage. The benign spirits usually do not seek to cross the Veil.

Justice was ripped from the Fade into Thedas with no way back. Justice became corrupted by Anders's hate. Spirits do not seek to inhabit others like demons, but outside the Fade it seems necessary.

The mage must strike a bargain with a demon to get its aid. The spirits seek nothing from the mage and must be persuaded that the mages cause is good.

Wynne did not summon a spirit. The spirit choose to save Wynne from death. Wynne had died or was near death. The spirit entered her body willingly. The spirit and Wynne became one except unlike Anders Wynne was not full of hate toward the Templars, the Chantry and the Circle. Wynne's spirit was not warped like Justice who became a spirit of vengeance.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 16 juin 2012 - 05:16 .

[thats1evildude]

Anders was an abomination. Being a spirit healer was secondary to his character.

Not all blood mages are evil, just 99 per cent of them.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 16 juin 2012 - 05:13 .

[sunnydxmen]

Actually justice became a demon of vengeance. Wynne had vessel of the spirit which the spirit help her if blood mages affect those with blood. then spirit healers should affect those with out it the spirits .

[Realmzmaster]

sunnydxmen wrote...

Actually justice became a demon of vengeance. Wynne had vessel of the spirit which the spirit help her if blood mages affect those with blood. then spirit healers should affect those with out it the spirits .

Blood mages can affect and control any creature with blood. Spirit healers do not control spirits. It is a partnership. If the spirit chooses not to help there is no way for the mage to make it. 

Wynne is the vessal of the Spirit because the spirit cannot get out. If it does then Wynne will die and the spirit may hasten its own death. The spirit has no way back to the Fade.

Justice is called the Spirit of Vengeance and is not a demon. A demon is feeds on the darker side of the human psyche like pride, desire, sloth, hunger and rage.

Vengeance is a form of justice and is not considered part of the darker side of human psyche.

[brushyourteeth]

You're inventing new spirit healer powers to help make them sound evil.
That's... not really a compelling argument. 

Spirit healers have a natural gift for communicating with benign spirits from the Fade and asking them for help to heal and protect themselves and others. Blood mages use their own or someone else's blood to power up their spells. It's really not the same thing at all.

[Treacherous J Slither]

There is nothing in the Spirit Healer tree that deals damage.

Everything in the Blood Magic tree deals damage.

/topic

[computasaysnoo]

I guess Spirit Healers could be bad in the form of keeping someone else who is bad from harm and making sure they don't die, ie: If Meredith had her own personal Spirit Healer, then yes, he/she would be very bad. Very bad indeed.

[Fallstar]

thats1evildude wrote...

Anders was an abomination. Being a spirit healer was secondary to his character.

Not all blood mages are evil, just 99 per cent of them.

99% of the ones we've been shown. 

Besides, why would your average blood mage do anything at all to reveal the fact that he knows blood magic. You have no idea how many of the mages you meet in Origins and DA2 are blood mages just carrying on with their lives. 

So yes, 100% of the evil people who also happen to use blood magic are evil. 

Should I also say that 99% of people named Petrice are racist? Because of the people we've met who are called Petrice, they have been racist? No of course not, the vast majority of Petrices are just carrying on with their lives.

[REAPERS_r_CTHULHU]

Actually from my interpretation, all Justice became was a "force of Vengeance". Never heard anything about that being a demon being as how vengeance isn't a demon in the DA universe.

This proses a good question though.... why don't spirit healers also have "life draining" attacks?

I mean, it only seems fitting, being in touch with life, one could only think that if "the good lord giveth, then he can taketh away too" right?

Modifié par REAPERS_r_CTHULHU, 28 juin 2012 - 01:42 .

[Fallstar]

REAPERS_r_CTHULHU wrote...

Actually from my interpretation, all Justice became was a "force of Vengeance". Never heard anything about that being a demon being as how vengeance isn't a demon in the DA universe.

This proses a good question though.... why don't spirit healers also have "life draining" attacks?

I mean, it only seems fitting, being in touch with life, one could only think that if "the good lord giveth, then he can taketh away too" right?

Equally why can't blood mages assist in healing by manipulating the flow of blood? I guess it just didn't fit with the specialisations in game, but I'd be interested to know if there's an actual reaon why we never hear of this happening in the lore either.

[REAPERS_r_CTHULHU]

DuskWarden wrote...

REAPERS_r_CTHULHU wrote...

Actually from my interpretation, all Justice became was a "force of Vengeance". Never heard anything about that being a demon being as how vengeance isn't a demon in the DA universe.

This proses a good question though.... why don't spirit healers also have "life draining" attacks?

I mean, it only seems fitting, being in touch with life, one could only think that if "the good lord giveth, then he can taketh away too" right?

Equally why can't blood mages assist in healing by manipulating the flow of blood? I guess it just didn't fit with the specialisations in game, but I'd be interested to know if there's an actual reaon why we never hear of this happening in the lore either.

If they could just make some kind of attack... SOME kind of attack, it could also employ healing! Like a health drain or something :/ but you'd think that spirit healer would fall in line with the "spirit" school of magic (which does have attack spells).

If only this could be recognized and used in the next game... although a spirit healer and blood mage build worked with DA2, couldn't find much use for the force mage abilites though.

[thats1evildude]

DuskWarden wrote...

99% of the ones we've been shown.

A false argument. By that logic, I could just as easily claim there are darkspawn poets living in the Deep Roads. Oh sure, all the darkspawn we've seen have been mindless beasts, but those are just the ones we've been shown.

DuskWarden wrote...

Besides, why would your average blood mage do anything at all to reveal the fact that he knows blood magic. You have no idea how many of the mages you meet in Origins and DA2 are blood mages just carrying on with their lives.

Why does your average mage even feel the need to turn to blood magic? It's a death sentence under Chantry law, an inherently destructive brand of magic and generally requires making a pact with a demon to learn. It's not like picking up a new hobby.

[REAPERS_r_CTHULHU]

thats1evildude wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...

Besides, why would your average blood mage do anything at all to reveal the fact that he knows blood magic. You have no idea how many of the mages you meet in Origins and DA2 are blood mages just carrying on with their lives.

Why does your average mage even feel the need to turn to blood magic? It's a death sentence under Chantry law, an inherently destructive brand of magic and generally requires making a pact with a demon to learn. It's not like picking up a new hobby.

Well you see, in the DA universe, there are many reasons why mages turn to blood magic. For instance, the most commonly thought is that they want power. Other reasons include: self preservation (their trump card when cornered by templars), or the demon promises them something they really want so they make a pact.

There is never a single statment about why they turn to it, to be honest it just seems like they do it for sh*ts and giggles. But in DA2 the majority have turned to it for protection. Aside from obvious ones like Huon and such who want power or something else.

Modifié par REAPERS_r_CTHULHU, 28 juin 2012 - 09:56 .

[thats1evildude]

Certainly some mages have good reasons for turning to blood magic. Others do so simply out of preservation.

But there's no denying that the applications of blood magic — summoning demons, controlling the minds of others — are mostly evil. Even the simplest use of blood magic is inherently harmful to he user. The only real reasons for learning it is if you're desperate or you intend harm to others, and most blood mages fall into the latter category.

[Blacklash93]

thats1evildude wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...

99% of the ones we've been shown.

A false argument. By that logic, I could just as easily claim there are darkspawn poets living in the Deep Roads. Oh sure, all the darkspawn we've seen have been mindless beasts, but those are just the ones we've been shown.

No more of a false argument than saying all blood mages are evil. Making sweeping generalizations does your position no merit. Power corrupts and blood magic is the ultimate power in Dragon Age.

And comparing sapient beings to creatures like Darkspawn isn't valid.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 28 juin 2012 - 02:45 .

[Face of Evil]

He actually said that 99 per cent of blood mages are evil, not all of them.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 28 juin 2012 - 05:05 .

[Fallstar]

thats1evildude wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...

99% of the ones we've been shown.

A false argument. By that logic, I could just as easily claim there are darkspawn poets living in the Deep Roads. Oh sure, all the darkspawn we've seen have been mindless beasts, but those are just the ones we've been shown.

DuskWarden wrote...

Besides, why would your average blood mage do anything at all to reveal the fact that he knows blood magic. You have no idea how many of the mages you meet in Origins and DA2 are blood mages just carrying on with their lives.

Why does your average mage even feel the need to turn to blood magic? It's a death sentence under Chantry law, an inherently destructive brand of magic and generally requires making a pact with a demon to learn. It's not like picking up a new hobby.

Your average mage could learn blood magic simply because he found it interesting. As for requiring a deal with a demon, nope.

• We can learn it from a demon as mages ourselves.
• We can learn it from a book in Awakening.
• Codex Entries state that the Old God Dumat was in fact the being that first taught Tevinter mages blood magic.
• If the Warden is not yet a blood mage, the Warden assumes the Baroness can teach him blood magicbefore we are given any information that she is in fact a pride demon. So it seems that our Warden mages think blood mages can teach blood magic.

So there are numerous (well, 3) other sources for blood magic than demons. You could just use blood instead of lyrium to power spells, learn blood magic from a book or another blood mage, and never be more exposed to demons than if you were just using mana based magic. Again, a mage who knows blood magic wouldn't need to do anything with the knowledge. They're hardly going to go "Rrrargh look at me and my blood magic". They'll act just like every other mage. Hence why you have no idea how many blood mages you've met without knowing.

As far as the 99% of blood mages being evil thing, I'm pretty sure DG or someone said somewhere that the abnormal number of blood mage you fight is simply for good gameplay, and doesn't actually mean that proportion of BM's are all yay demons.

Modifié par DuskWarden, 28 juin 2012 - 05:36 .

[thats1evildude]

rabble rabble rabble double post rabble rabble rabble

Modifié par thats1evildude, 28 juin 2012 - 06:18 .

[thats1evildude]

DuskWarden wrote...

Your average mage could learn blood magic simply because he found it interesting.

You make it sound like taking a a class in orange-eating at the local community college.

Nobody picks up blood magic as a hobby. It's dangerous to practice, difficult to learn and the absolute bare minimum usage of blood magic is still harmful to its user.

DuskWarden wrote...

We can learn it from a book in Awakening.

You can learn everything from a book in Awakening. It's a Monty Haul campaign where the PC is only limited by the size of his wallet. If griffins were available for sale in Awakening, I would not have been surprised.

DuskWarden wrote...

Codex Entries state that the Old God Dumat was in fact the being that first taught Tevinter mages blood magic.

A theory that was jossed in DA2. Blood magic originated with demons.

DuskWarden wrote...

If the Warden is not yet a blood mage, the Warden assumes the Baroness can teach him blood magicbefore we are given any information that she is in fact a pride demon. So it seems that our Warden mages think blood mages can teach blood magic.

No doubt blood mages can teach other blood mages. Of course, since most blood mages are evil, you're just as better off learning it from demons.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 28 juin 2012 - 06:18 .

[Fallstar]

 

thats1evildude wrote...

rabble rabble rabble double post rabble rabble rabble

 

Agreed.

thats1evildude wrote...

You make it sound like taking a a class in orange-eating at the local community college.

Nobody picks up blood magic as a hobby. It's dangerous to practice, difficult to learn and the absolute bare minimum usage of blood magic is still harmful to its user.

We'll have to agree to disagree here. As far as I see it, blood magic is just a tool. If a mage is capable of resisting demons, they really should be able to resist the lure of summoning a host of demons and tearing the veil. It just requires a bit more strength. Whilst it may be dangerous to use, so is conventional magic. Controlling your target's blood and mind, as well as being able to summon demons, is a corrupting power for sure, but so is the ability to summon firestorms and whatnot. 

You can learn everything from a book in Awakening. It's a Monty Haul campaign where the PC is only limited by the size of his wallet. If griffins were available for sale in Awakening, I would not have been surprised.

True, but the optiion is still there. Whatever the 'secret' to using blood magic is, I can't think of a reason why that secret couldn't be written down and learned by others without needing to deal with demons. Also, think back to Jowan in DAO. I was under the impression he learned BM from a book, I certainly didn't see him being able to enter the fade and learn BM from a demon without a templar realising.

A theory that was jossed in DA2. Blood magic originated with demons.

DA2 just provided another source that demons, specifically the Forgotten ones, were the original source of BM. We have another opinion that BM was originally learned by humans from demons. And that doesn't mean that BM originated from demons, humans may have originally learnt it from demons, demons may have been the first beings to discover how to use it, that doesn't mean demons created it. 

No doubt blood mages can teach other blood mages. Of course, since most blood mages are evil, you're just as better off learning it from demons.

Again, we'll have to agree to disagree about most blood mages being evil. Warden blood mages who help to save the world from a blight don't strike me as being particularly evil. Neither do other blood mages who for example, bound Corypheus in his prison in the Vinmark mountains. Or the ones who just know it in case an insane Knight Commander dictator decides to murder them all for something they didn't do. Not that that would ever happen right, just in case.

Modifié par DuskWarden, 28 juin 2012 - 07:31 .

[REAPERS_r_CTHULHU]

thats1evildude wrote...

Certainly some mages have good reasons for turning to blood magic. Others do so simply out of preservation.

But there's no denying that the applications of blood magic — summoning demons, controlling the minds of others — are mostly evil. Even the simplest use of blood magic is inherently harmful to he user. The only real reasons for learning it is if you're desperate or you intend harm to others, and most blood mages fall into the latter category.

It''s like this; What you do with power is what you do. Having it doesn't make you evil, but if you use it to kill people for fun, or just have an evil agenda, then you're evil. (i.e. Huon)

Someone could kill the same with a knife as well as with blood magic. The only reason it's feared is because the "mundane" people in the world fear being controlled through blood magic. I guess it sends shivers down their spine. Regardless though, remember in DA2, that little scenario that happened with Hawke's mom and the killer of Kirkwall? Blood magic did not kill her, it was used to [spoilers] bring her back to life.

[Daerog]

Where is is said that spirit healers are good? While blood mages are a templar's #1 concern, spirit healers are second, as they are communing with spirits, which is dangerous, since a mage can be fooled in communing with a demon pretending to be benevolent. I don't think anyone in game openly says they are a spirit healer.

That is just ingame point of view. Also, if the spirits outright attacked people, that wouldn't be much of a spirit healer, more like a demon caller or something.

As for blood magic, ya, it is bad news. It is power, sure, a person with a gun can do as much harm as someone with blood magic, sort of. It is more like a blood mage is someone walking around with a backpack filled with grenades and always carrying around a rocket launcher and wearing mind control goggles. Now, many people don't see a problem with someone carrying around guns, some people do, but I would think the person expecting ww3 in the next 5 minutes would at least be frowned upon.

But, eh, I usually like to be a loyalist mage as well.

(comparing blood mage to a one man army is a bit much, but I'm not expecting to debate this as this is opinion)

[REAPERS_r_CTHULHU]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

Where is is said that spirit healers are good? While blood mages are a templar's #1 concern, spirit healers are second, as they are communing with spirits, which is dangerous, since a mage can be fooled in communing with a demon pretending to be benevolent. I don't think anyone in game openly says they are a spirit healer.

That is just ingame point of view. Also, if the spirits outright attacked people, that wouldn't be much of a spirit healer, more like a demon caller or something.

As for blood magic, ya, it is bad news. It is power, sure, a person with a gun can do as much harm as someone with blood magic, sort of. It is more like a blood mage is someone walking around with a backpack filled with grenades and always carrying around a rocket launcher and wearing mind control goggles. Now, many people don't see a problem with someone carrying around guns, some people do, but I would think the person expecting ww3 in the next 5 minutes would at least be frowned upon.

But, eh, I usually like to be a loyalist mage as well.

(comparing blood mage to a one man army is a bit much, but I'm not expecting to debate this as this is opinion)

Technically the "spirits are indeed all good, but mundane people still fear spirit healers because they are still "spirits" which could also be demons. But in the DA universe it is never stated that demons can teach spirit healing, but I guess the lack of evidence could also disprove that it's always good spirits.

As for blood magic, it is the only form of magic that a mage can use against a templar (if you want to go by in-game lore standards being as how templars can cancel out man/lyrium based magic but not blood magic.) Which is one of the reasons why it is feard so much. They do say that magic is a corrupting power, but I beseech you to think... Isn't a blade as much a moniker to kill someone as fire at your fingertips? You can do the same amount of harm with weapons that you can with magic.

The only reason it is feared in the world of the DA universe is because there are people who can't use it. People fear what they don't have.

[Lord Gremlin]

I think the difference here is that blood magic is taught by a demon in 99% of cases. It's not researched properly because Templars use blood magic themselves, hence if they allow mages to research it they will effectively lose their leash eventually.
So, it's all hypocritical on Templars part.
And anyway, it's hinted many times that there is no clear line between demons and spirits. It's the same entity, just like an elf merchant and an elf assassin are same entity, it's just views and skills differ. Which implies that spirit may become the demon if it changes it's mind. Look at Justice.