467 réponses à ce sujet

[humes spork]

hanoobken wrote...

Really?  Why do people play as biotics?  Because they want to blow **** up in clusters - of course they primarily aim for atlases, brutes, banshees, primes cuz they can set off multiple explosions on them.  So the unlucky infiltrator who happens to be standing beside the biotic who aggroed everything shouldn't cloak?

Biotic players like to bite off more than they can chew then blame infiltrators when the **** hits the fan.

It's quite interesting you bring those four enemies in particular up, since they happen to be the lowest-priority and typically least-threatening enemies of each respective faction, notorious among those who know what the hell they're doing as the enemies that morons focus fire and get cut down by the ravening hordes they consequently ignore.

They're typically best dealt with by kiting them until the crowd control is done, whereafter they can be focus fired down in relative peace and safety. The best person for that task is typically someone who can attack them at range, the longer the better, given their enormous ability to deal loads of damage via projectiles that can be easily dodged by someone at range, and in the case of three of those enemies you mentioned, synch kills that only work in close range. Someone who can hit them really hard with burst damage to get and keep their attention once and for all, so hard at one time they're not wasting 3-5k damage on average by bumping up against shieldgate mechanics, lead them away from the group and do something like turn invisible and return to the group to mop up assuming their own immense long-range damage doesn't just allow them to finish the boss off outright while kiting...

...not that infiltrators would be ideal for kiting bosses or anything. They're way more useful to the team one- or two-shotting an enemy at a time, especially compared to the biotics who as you so eloquently said yourself, "blow **** up in clusters". God forbid infiltrators debase themselves in such a way, kiting bosses is **** work!

I mean, it must be. Nine times out of ten, when Laser-******, the gundam, Lee Harvey Oswald or the Incredible Hulk show up, the infiltrator's off in a corner flogging his e-bishop to the sweet, sweet view of generic troopers' exploding heads and the job of kiting those guys fall to me, lest they dance wild and free through the map like some twisted, murderous alternate universe Julie Andrews. When you know, I'd be much happier blowing up the ravenous masses so we can just kill the big guys in peace and quiet all the faster.

Modifié par humes spork, 17 juin 2012 - 06:54 .

[FlowCytometry]

Hypertion wrote...

the typical use of Tactical Cloak as a "quick Dissappear for massive damage bonus while compleatly ignoring weapon weight and power recharges" dissappoints me.

not in the players but in bioware for designing it like that.

Yeah, I do agree the ability is not very intuitive- worse you wouldn't get any accurate idea how it works just going by the info the game provides you. Its really not a good example of great game design.

And I think less people would complain about TC if aoe powers and wpn aoe effects were tuned down for the bonus. Infils having high single target damage is fine and really fits their role perfectly. Its when they can wipe out spawns w/ PM or Arc Nades or Krysae spam and still offer high single target dmg in the same cloak cycle is when it just becomes too much in addition to the stealth advantage.

A good infil will more than compensate for dumping aggro on their teammates by eliminating key targets and helping w/ revives and objectives. Bad infils will dump aggro, not efficently kill things, and just get them and their team into more trouble.

W/ a great power like TC comes the responsibility of looking after ur teammates.

Modifié par FlowCytometry, 17 juin 2012 - 06:45 .

[eye basher]

9 out of 10 times i use the infiltrator i forget to use cloak hell i forget i even have it.

[Master Xanthan]

eye basher wrote...

9 out of 10 times i use the infiltrator i forget to use cloak hell i forget i even have it.

How do you forget to use it? 

[robarcool]

Feneckus wrote...

 You guys are so childish, unbelievable.

We have an 'adult' here.

[DayusMakhina]

Jay_Hoxtatron wrote...

What is amusing is to see that nearly every anti-nerfers are resorting to personal attacks.

'TC should be nerfed, because [insert reason]'

Anti-nerfer : 'Stop QQing cuz somebody did better than you!!'

or

'This is a Cooperative game!!!'

----------------


Yeah, whatever, Coop game or not, every game should be balanced. It's common sense. [1]

Yes, infiltrator is easy mode [2]. When I first started ME3 MP, I took an infiltrator (the human male infiltrator). Being able to cloak when you make mistakes or when you can't kill bosses because your guns sucks is pretty nice. Then you can kite them through the map, and staying invisible from trash mobs who can quickly down you like marauders when you're running away from banshees, and slowly whittle down their health points. I managed to finish a wave 9 on gold as a new player (My N7 was 17 at the time) with a M76 Revenant II -my only viable weapon for gold at the time- by kiting/cloaking and controlling spawns. Would I have been able to do that with an adept/sentinel/engi/whatever? Nope [3].

Because when you start the game, cloaking is simply the power who will get you out of every situations (Well nearly all of them). Of course, when you level up your other characters, you will gain more insight on how they work, and will be able to play their strengths, but the other characters have a higher learning curve than the infiltrator. I had never played any Mass Effect game before, and didn't know that warp+throw, or pull/reave did BEs. However, infiltrator ; Cloak, shoot. Every gamer who played FPS/TPS will excel at infiltrator. Because it's basic skills. Aim for the head, shoot. Herp derp it's hard [4].


That said, I'm not asking BW to remove what makes the infiltrator an infiltrator. He should keep the Tactical Cloak. And since he's supposed to dish out high burst DPS, then the damage bonus is totally justified. You want to nerf the damage bonus from 90% to 50%? No (Not saying this particularly to you OP, but to all TC nerfers). If it's nerfed to 70% that would be more acceptable. 

But if the damage bonus is nerfed, I'd like something like 15 seconds of cloak instead of the 10 sec.
And being able to cap objectives faster (4 hacks or uploads). It'll force the infiltrators to be more oriented towards teamplay.

TL/DR : Anyways in answer to your statement OP : TC = easy mode + unfair to non-inf.

Yes TC is definitely useful and makes for easy revives/capping objectives/dealing with the tougher enemies.

Unfair to non inf? Lol no. What? Tired of being a 'decoy'? I suggest TACTICAL RELOCATION. I've played games with 3 infiltrators before, with me using another class. Yeah, I couldn't turn invisible. But guess what? Whenever I see I'm about to get overwhelmed I move. I don't stay in the about-to-be killzone. You'll even see that the foolish infiltrator who thought he could solo waves after waves of trashmobs+bosses without moving around will get the aggro. Then he will turn invisible, run away and still get shot because the TC is sometimes not effective when the enemy knows your approx. location.

Edit : to be clear. I don't hate infs. I even enjoy it a lot, and often play this class (GI or QMI). But even if I like this class a lot, I agree that's it is quite easy to play it efficiently. But I'm NOT asking for a nerf, and will still enjoy the class if BW doesn't change it. And probably will still enjoy the class even if BW tweaks it.

[1] Yet very few games achieve that balance. Balance is most important in 1 player competitive games, like for example fighting games. Fighting games generally have a very hardcore and very competitive fanbase and are frequently played at LAN events on a global scale. You'd agree balance is very important there right and that everything would be perfectly balanced? You'd be wrong if you did. Pretty much every fighting game has an accepted tier system whereby some characters are better than others, as such in competitive play you always see certain characters more often than others. To expect total balance in a non-competitive game is just naive.

[2] I agree Infiltrators are the easiest class to play with. I don't see that as a problem though. Easiest does not equate best and some other characters can be just as powerful.

[3] Yet at level 20 numerous other characters are just as successful, thus you cannot nerf Infiltrators unless you equally nerf the other characters that are equally as powerful. Else, you're just making things even more unbalanced.

[4] All of that is true, and is exactly why an Infiltrator shouldn't be nerfed. Something should only be nerfed if it's more powerful than everything else. Infiltrators played to their fullest will not always outscore other top tier characters played to their fullest. They often will outscore top tier characters not played to their fullest though.

Essentially, the power ceiling is no higher on an Infiltrator than on some other characters, but it is easier to reach the ceiling (because they are so simple to play) than it is with others. How is that not balanced? Sure you can argue that they shouldn't be easier, but that's unavoidable because they are just point and shoot. Noone can fail to understand how to play them. Ironically the same should be for soldiers, but they're somewhat underpowered in comparison.

[Joyce_Esther]

Master Xanthan wrote...

eye basher wrote...

9 out of 10 times i use the infiltrator i forget to use cloak hell i forget i even have it.

How do you forget to use it? 

Yeah I automatically press the Y button even when the wave is over. 

[BlackoutOmega]

Feneckus wrote...

 You guys are so childish, unbelievable.

Whats wrong, made a stupid opinion on the internet and everyones calling you out for it?
Go cry about something else, somewhere else.

[nicethugbert]

VVereVVulf wrote...

It's funny that you blame TC because most shots I fire are uncloaked.

Maybe the infiltrators were just better players.

It's funny that most infiltrators know how to stay cloaked in between reloads so that most of their shots are cloaked and most of their uncloaked time is spent while reloading.  Even with reload glitch, reloading takes time.  Do it well enough and your cloak CD is under 4 seconds.

And, you are right, I blame tactical cloak for stealing all my ****es!  Tactical Cloak is too sexy!  Look at my original post.  The blame is all right there!

But, you still haven't told me how much skill there is in using tactical cloak.  Tell me how much
skill there is in using your team as a bullet sponge.  Tell me how much
skill there is in shooting unaware targets in the back. 

Modifié par nicethugbert, 17 juin 2012 - 07:14 .

[nicethugbert]

DayusMakhina wrote...

To actually be serious for once... how does the use of Tactical Cloak dump aggro?

The only time people stay cloaked for a prolonged period is when attempting to do objectives, at which point yes it is dumping aggro... for the benefit of the team.

Other than that an Inf will cloak and shoot within a second or two at most, which doesn't exactly dump aggro on teammates at all considering the cycle goes like this:

Enemies look at Infiltrator, Infiltrator cloaks, Enemies look away, Infiltrator fires, Enemies look at Infiltrator again and repeat.

An Infiltrator is ignored for about 1 or 2 seconds at most at a time, in that period of time no teammate is going to get a lot more aggro especially if the enemies have to turn around (which we'll say is the case as OP seems to like mentioning Inf shooting in the back).

The aggro argument is just weak.

PS: This is coming from a player who spends his time split between playing Adept, Engineers and Infiltrators.

No, you have to spectate over an Infiltrator's shoulder to see how enemies are drawn like magnets towards the non-cloaked player.  You can waltz in, right in front of an Atlas and two phantoms and as soon as the non-cloaked player starts to stand up, they are all over him and forget about you.  Then you run off to safety.

But you still haven't told me me how much skill there is in using tactical cloak.  Tell me how much
skill there is in using your team as a bullet sponge.  Tell me how much
skill there is in shooting unaware targets in the back. 

[nicethugbert]

Curunen wrote...

TC shifts aggro, sure, but any good infiltrator will more than compensate for that through dealing damage, debuffing, crowd controlling, or whatever.

Where are these mythical good players?  I've never seen them.  Would these players be good if they were taking rockets to the face while lining up a shot?

But, you still haven't told me how much skill there is in using tactical cloak.  Tell me how much
skill there is in using your team as a bullet sponge.  Tell me how much
skill there is in shooting unaware targets in the back. 

[nicethugbert]

IAMREALITY wrote...

 What utter nonsense.  Much like your anecdotes.

Infiltrators, and tactical cloak, are anything but easy mode.   There is just as much skill needed if not even moreso in order to play them right, with more pressure put on them than anyone else.

Please elaborate.  and while you are at it tell me how much skill there is in using tactical cloak.  Tell me how much
skill there is in using your team as a bullet sponge.  Tell me how much
skill there is in shooting unaware targets in the back. 

[nicethugbert]

humes spork wrote...

Infiltrators aren't "easy mode" (well, without a krysae anyhow), but on the other hand they're a high-risk, high-reward class. It just happens to be the case that the associated risk is born by the team itself opposed to the individual, as it is with other high-risk, high-reward setups.

Some classes are better-equipped to deal with socialization of risk than others, that's a part of the game. Case in point, if I'm playing SE I could not care less if I have an infiltrator next to me dumping aggro; drawing and soaking fire is what I set my SE up to do. If I'm playing asari adept, damn straight I care if I have an infiltrator next to me dumping aggro (and probably sniping primed targets, but I digress).

The problem is whether the infiltrator player is aware of this conundrum and plays with the proper awareness and respect for his/her teammates. This, after all, is a team game. A great deal of infiltrator players, good or bad, are completely unaware of this conundrum entirely much less exercise discretion in how and when they cloak.

Tell me how much skill there is in using tactical cloak.  Tell me how much
skill there is in using your team as a bullet sponge.  Tell me how much
skill there is in shooting unaware targets in the back. 

[nicethugbert]

Jebel Krong wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

My first match of the day, I start a Fire Base Giant, Cerberus, Gold match with randoms, we get a team without any infiltrators.  I consider this a good thing.  Two other guys had mics and they sound like good guys.  We wipe on wave 8 or so.  No big deal.  We can just learn our lesson and start another match.  One guy leaves and gets replaced by an infiltrator, without a mic.  Start next match, same map and all, it already feels different, easier in some way.  Like I can just camp out and let someone else do all the work.

Later on was playing firebase Goddess, Gold, with two infiltrators and another non-infiltrator.  I bleed out.  The rest of the team is in The Room.  An Atlas coming through one entrance, two phantoms coming in through the other.  the non-infiltrator is in a perpetual state of stun lock, death, and revive.  The two infiltrators are waltzing in between the enemies and team, cloaking in plain sight, dumping aggro on this poor guy who can't do anything but get killed.

Later on, another match on Goddess, Gold, Cerberus, this time only one infiltrator.  I bleed out again.  The rest of the team is in The Room.  Again, Atlas coming through one entrance, two phantoms in the other entrance.  The two non-infiltrators are being rockets and stabbed to death non-stop.  The infiltrator, again, waltzing in between enemies and team, cloaking in plain sight, dumping aggro.

Later on, I play an infiltrator.  My infiltrators are level 19 all from character card spam.  I need 2 or 3 matches to get them to 20.  I run around the edges of the map, cloaked, putting my Reeger X right up in critter's cranium and melting them in a split second without getting shot.  I could have done just as well with a claymore, or a tooth pick.

Go ahead, tell me how much skill there is in using tactical cloak.  Tell me how much skill there is in using your team as a bullet sponge.  Tell me how much skill there is in shooting unaware targets in the back. 

Tactical Cloak = Easy Mode + Unfair to Non--Infiltrators.

So... You're crap and die a lot and blame better players for getting you through waves? Plus there's concepts like cover and relocating to another spot often you might want to check out. But of course it's infiltrators and tactical cloak that is the problem... Right.

Hmm, you seem to know alot about a match you didn't play and I barely described.  And, what blame are you sqeeling about?  OK, since you are such a genius, supply the information I asked for in my original post, the post you quoted.  Tell me how much skill there is in using tactical cloak.  Tell me how much skill there is in using your team as a bullet sponge.  Tell me how much skill there is in shooting unaware targets in the back. 

[nicethugbert]

Liefglinde wrote...

Quite frankly, if I'm cloaked for more than 1 second, it's because I'm capping objectives or reviving Rambo. I cloak and fire almost simultaneously, solely for the damage boost. Many Infiltrators I've seen do this as well. It seems more like it's you being Rambo that's getting you killed, not "Infiltrators dumping aggro."

Keep mashing A/X/Spacebar, I'm almost there

If I have ot keep mashing A/X/spacebar because you are almost there then you are not there.  You are somewhere else far away, not taking aggro.  You are going to cloak to get there, not taking aggro.  Then you will cloak to go away again, not taking aggro.

But, you still haven't told me how much skill there is in using tactical cloak.  Tell me how much skill there is in using your team as a bullet sponge.  Tell me how much skill there is in shooting unaware targets in the back. 

[Adhok42]

BlackoutOmega wrote...
You want a challenge, go play ME2 Insanity.

Now THAT was hell! Even TC couldn't save you there!

[I7IDanny]

2 words. Broken. Record.

Give it a rest. And for reference, I'm in neither camp.

[defleshing]

op you need some friends instead of playing with randoms find others to join your infiltration hatred cult. then you will never have to see one again. problem solved. all problems solved buy building your friends list with people of similar skill and attitudes. also if you can't handle infiltrators in your group play bronze no excuses there. many of us do just fine playing as the only non infiltrator. i do it on gold all the time and enjoy it.

Modifié par defleshing, 17 juin 2012 - 07:37 .

[DayusMakhina]

nicethugbert wrote...

No, you have to spectate over an Infiltrator's shoulder to see how enemies are drawn like magnets towards the non-cloaked player [1].  You can waltz in, right in front of an Atlas and two phantoms and as soon as the non-cloaked player starts to stand up, they are all over him and forget about you.  Then you run off to safety.

But you still haven't told me me how much skill there is in using tactical cloak [2].  Tell me how much
skill there is in using your team as a bullet sponge [3].  Tell me how much
skill there is in shooting unaware targets in the back [4]. 

[1] That's bull and you know it. I tend to play an Infiltrator as a bit of a lone wolf and will almost always attempt to move away from the rest of the group in an attempt to draw enemies away. According to you I would never get shot, and no enemies would come towards my position, which is not true at all. Yes they forget about me when I cloak, but the moment I fire at them and am uncloaked they are coming towards me. A good player would take advantage of that and always put the enemy into a position where they can be fired upon on both sides.
[2] About the same amount of skill as there is in any other power. No power in the game is difficult to use. I'm not going to deny that Tac Cloak makes a good get out of jail free card though. Strangely enough though that doesn't bother me. Nor does it bother me when i'm playing in a team with multiple infiltrators when i'm not one. Why? Because I can handle myself and don't need a scapegoat.
[3] No need to answer that because it doesn't happen. 
[4] Not much. Though you make it sound like only Infiltrators can shoot players in the back. Any capable player can maneouvre around the map and flank enemies. It is not difficult to do with any class.

[OblivionDawn]

nicethugbert wrote...

OblivionDawn wrote...

"Infiltrators dump aggro" is THE weakest argument I've ever seen/heard.

Most infiltrators don't stay cloaked long enough to let any "dumped aggro"  wander anywhere close to a teammate. And if they do, it's because they're reviving someone or capping an objective, both of which are acceptable.

This one match I was in, I played Infiltrator, the rest, other classes.  I did all the work while they just sat around playing cards until an enemy spotted them, then they played possum.  As soon as I shot the enemy dead, they went back to playing cards.  True story.

...Your point? Other than that you playing with some bad randoms?

nicethugbert wrote...

OblivionDawn wrote...

In a team where you are the only player that isn't an infiltrator, and they all happen to cloak at the same time, it would  make more sense. But that's an exception, not the rule.

Wait, I just read that "shooting targets in the back" bit. New weakest argument. It's called flanking, you do that in a shooting game. It's no more "easy mode" than powers that home in on the enemy and can hit them behind cover.

I see how you herp derp there.  Try flanking without Tac Cloak.

I really can't find the sarcasm in this, but I refuse to believe that you honestly think that you can't flank enemies without TC. Maybe if you completely suck at the game, but otherwise? It's as easy is taking a route that takes you behind your enemies, while your teammates draw fire. Any class can do it. Try it sometime.

So you continue with the EZ mode of spamming homing powers that can hit behind cover, and I'll continue with the "EZ mode" of cloaking to line up headshots.

Modifié par OblivionDawn, 17 juin 2012 - 07:36 .

[Feauce]

nicethugbert wrote...

Tell me how much skill there is in using tactical cloak. Tell me how much skill there is in using your team as a bullet sponge.

I refuse to. Why? Because I don't have to justify how I play a game I paid for to someone like you. Now, if you want to be less whiny and rude, people would probably be more than willing to discuss all kinds of strategies for multiple classes/builds with you. As it is, the people have spoken, and the word is "Shut up."

nicethugbert wrote...

Tell me how much skill there is in shooting unaware targets in the back.

As above, I won't tell you, but I will say that there's more skill in shooting unaware targets in the head whlie they're moving. The Nemesis in particular.

[Adhok42]

Feauce wrote...
As above, I won't tell you, but I will say that there's more skill in shooting unaware targets in the head whlie they're moving. The Nemesis in particular.

That **** is jumpier then a Kangaroo on chocolate covered expresso beans! And that's saying something considering the Phantom!

[PinkysPain]

nicethugbert wrote...
Tactical Cloak = Easy Mode + Unfair to Non--Infiltrators.

I recently saw a trailer on Steam for a game which made me realise that combining the sneaky and the sniper archetype in a single class was a colossal mistake :

http://store.steampo...eo/210490/81749

- Single shot damage is best damage
- Invisibility allows retreat and picking your battles

Combine them and you have OP.

There is simply no downside to infiltrators, they are the best at almost everything with the exception of grenade spam (which is a very niche tactic, because it takes ammo packs to do really well). Of course it's a collossal mistake they can't really fix any more now ... the entire damage bonus should be removed from the infiltrator and it would still be the easiest to play class in the game.

Modifié par PinkysPain, 17 juin 2012 - 07:42 .

[Sabbatine]

nicethugbert wrote...

Later on was playing firebase Goddess, Gold, with two infiltrators and another non-infiltrator.  I bleed out.  The rest of the team is in The Room.  An Atlas coming through one entrance, two phantoms coming in through the other.  the non-infiltrator is in a perpetual state of stun lock, death, and revive.  The two infiltrators are waltzing in between the enemies and team, cloaking in plain sight, dumping aggro on this poor guy who can't do anything but get killed.

If this was happening, you weren't playing on gold.  Cloaking in plain sight doesn't dump agro.  That may happen on silver or bronze, but is not the case on gold.  Atlas mechs and phantoms don't switch targets if you cloak right in front of them, in fact they don't even slow down their shooting.

nicethugbert wrote... 

Later on, another match on Goddess, Gold, Cerberus, this time only one infiltrator.  I bleed out again.  The rest of the team is in The Room.  Again, Atlas coming through one entrance, two phantoms in the other entrance.  The two non-infiltrators are being rockets and stabbed to death non-stop.  The infiltrator, again, waltzing in between enemies and team, cloaking in plain sight, dumping aggro.

Again, this doesn't happen in gold... not the way you have described it.

nicethugbert wrote... 

Go ahead, tell me how much skill there is in using tactical cloak.  Tell me how much skill there is in using your team as a bullet sponge.  Tell me how much skill there is in shooting unaware targets in the back.

You are either lying or profoundly ignorant, any attempt to explain how tactical cloak works (especially on gold) to you would be wasted.  You've already made up your mind and won't let something like the facts get in the way of your opinion.

Modifié par Sabbatine, 17 juin 2012 - 07:42 .

[Feauce]

PinkysPain wrote...

I recently saw a trailer on Steam for a game which made me realise that combining the sneaky and the sniper archetype in a single class was a colossal mistake :

http://store.steampo...eo/210490/81749

Logical flaw in your link... Fray is PvP, while ME3 is co-op only.