467 réponses à ce sujet

[PinkysPain]

Feauce wrote...
Logical flaw in your link... Fray is PvP, while ME3 is co-op only.

Logical flaw in your thinking ... balance not being important in PvE.

As for balance, damage and survivability are unfortunately the only two relevant metrics in ME3 (with a very small bit of crowd control in the form of the decoy, it would be nice if there was more real crowd control and more effects from buffing/debuffing so we could add more axis on which to balance classes ... but that's not ME3 as it stands). Infiltrator has the crown in both (ignoring grenade spam) and hence no balance.

Modifié par PinkysPain, 17 juin 2012 - 07:52 .

[thegamefreek78648]

O.P.

Check

My

Sig

The link How tactical cloak works will give you an idea of the skill needed for using Tactical Cloak.

[ctr2yellowbird]

The OP raised legitimate gameplay concerns, except I would not give the dumping aggro equal weight as the rest of his argument. Even Infiltrators draw some aggro, and I find that it's the Infiltrators who aren't contributing as much as they should be who make that redirected aggro a problem. Having read the first page (only, skipping the rest because ->), I'm quite surprised at how quick people are to judge the OP. Really. The volume of negative, faulty, over-reaching assumptions in response to the OP... is astounding. The OP merely relayed some recent gameplay experiences, then made some observations based on those experiences--nothing too far-fetched either--in a civilized manner. The response was anything but. Crass. Vitriolic. Caustic. I don't have very high expectations of the average gamer, but I thought this community was, on the whole, better.

I'm sorely tempted to report this whole thread and let a BW mod sort out you sad lot.

[Fang92]

ctr2yellowbird wrote...

The OP raised legitimate gameplay concerns, except I would not give the dumping aggro equal weight as the rest of his argument. Even Infiltrators draw some aggro, and I find that it's the Infiltrators who aren't contributing as much as they should be who make that redirected aggro a problem. Having read the first page (only, skipping the rest because ->), I'm quite surprised at how quick people are to judge the OP. Really. The volume of negative, faulty, over-reaching assumptions in response to the OP... is astounding. The OP merely relayed some recent gameplay experiences, then made some observations based on those experiences--nothing too far-fetched either--in a civilized manner. The response was anything but. Crass. Vitriolic. Caustic. I don't have very high expectations of the average gamer, but I thought this community was, on the whole, better.

I'm sorely tempted to report this whole thread and let a BW mod sort out you sad lot.

You should really read the page before this one where OP says the same thing over and over.

[thegamefreek78648]

ctr2yellowbird wrote...

The OP raised legitimate gameplay concerns, except I would not give the dumping aggro equal weight as the rest of his argument. Even Infiltrators draw some aggro, and I find that it's the Infiltrators who aren't contributing as much as they should be who make that redirected aggro a problem. Having read the first page (only, skipping the rest because ->), I'm quite surprised at how quick people are to judge the OP. Really. The volume of negative, faulty, over-reaching assumptions in response to the OP... is astounding. The OP merely relayed some recent gameplay experiences, then made some observations based on those experiences--nothing too far-fetched either--in a civilized manner. The response was anything but. Crass. Vitriolic. Caustic. I don't have very high expectations of the average gamer, but I thought this community was, on the whole, better.

I'm sorely tempted to report this whole thread and let a BW mod sort out you sad lot.

Civilized?  Wouldnt want to see what you call a full scale ware then.

[5DVz]

ctr2yellowbird wrote...

The OP raised legitimate gameplay concerns, except I would not give the dumping aggro equal weight as the rest of his argument. Even Infiltrators draw some aggro, and I find that it's the Infiltrators who aren't contributing as much as they should be who make that redirected aggro a problem. Having read the first page (only, skipping the rest because ->), I'm quite surprised at how quick people are to judge the OP. Really. The volume of negative, faulty, over-reaching assumptions in response to the OP... is astounding. The OP merely relayed some recent gameplay experiences, then made some observations based on those experiences--nothing too far-fetched either--in a civilized manner. The response was anything but. Crass. Vitriolic. Caustic. I don't have very high expectations of the average gamer, but I thought this community was, on the whole, better.

I'm sorely tempted to report this whole thread and let a BW mod sort out you sad lot.

Moral Police to the rescue! 

Thank you, kind sir.  

[Jay_Hoxtatron]

DayusMakhina wrote...


[1] Yet very few games achieve that balance. Balance is most important in 1 player competitive games, like for example fighting games. Fighting games generally have a very hardcore and very competitive fanbase and are frequently played at LAN events on a global scale. You'd agree balance is very important there right and that everything would be perfectly balanced? You'd be wrong if you did. Pretty much every fighting game has an accepted tier system whereby some characters are better than others, as such in competitive play you always see certain characters more often than others. To expect total balance in a non-competitive game is just naive.

[2] I agree Infiltrators are the easiest class to play with. I don't see that as a problem though. Easiest does not equate best and some other characters can be just as powerful.

[3] Yet at level 20 numerous other characters are just as successful, thus you cannot nerf Infiltrators unless you equally nerf the other characters that are equally as powerful. Else, you're just making things even more unbalanced.

[4] All of that is true, and is exactly why an Infiltrator shouldn't be nerfed. Something should only be nerfed if it's more powerful than everything else. Infiltrators played to their fullest will not always outscore other top tier characters played to their fullest. They often will outscore top tier characters not played to their fullest though.

Essentially, the power ceiling is no higher on an Infiltrator than on some other characters, but it is easier to reach the ceiling (because they are so simple to play) than it is with others. How is that not balanced? Sure you can argue that they shouldn't be easier, but that's unavoidable because they are just point and shoot. Noone can fail to understand how to play them. Ironically the same should be for soldiers, but they're somewhat underpowered in comparison.

You make good points.

1) I agree with you, even comp games are not always perfectly balanced, and it often requires the modding community to do something about it since the publisher doesn't do anything.



2) & 3) Yes, at level 20 a lot of other characters are powerful. I'm just saying that if you have ever played any other FPS/TPS, you will quickly get the hang of the infiltrator and it's the easiest class to play with. Whereas playing other classes needs getting used  to. But yes, nerfing the infiltrators too much could imbalance the game.  A small tweak (and I mean tweak, not nerf) probably would be enough to satisfy those who say the infiltrator is OP, all the while not changing completely the game for those who enjoy playing the infiltrator. This, I believe would be balanced.

4) '
Essentially, the power ceiling is no higher on an Infiltrator than on some other characters, but it is easier to reach the ceiling (because they are so simple to play) than it is with others. ' QFT

But like I said, I'm not in favor of a nerf, rather a small tweak who would make other classes more interesting for those starting the game.

[N7-RedFox]

nicethugbert wrote...

My first match of the day, I start a Fire Base Giant, Cerberus, Gold match with randoms, we get a team without any infiltrators.  I consider this a good thing.  Two other guys had mics and they sound like good guys.  We wipe on wave 8 or so.  No big deal.  We can just learn our lesson and start another match.  One guy leaves and gets replaced by an infiltrator, without a mic.  Start next match, same map and all, it already feels different, easier in some way.  Like I can just camp out and let someone else do all the work.

Later on was playing firebase Goddess, Gold, with two infiltrators and another non-infiltrator.  I bleed out.  The rest of the team is in The Room.  An Atlas coming through one entrance, two phantoms coming in through the other.  the non-infiltrator is in a perpetual state of stun lock, death, and revive.  The two infiltrators are waltzing in between the enemies and team, cloaking in plain sight, dumping aggro on this poor guy who can't do anything but get killed.

Later on, another match on Goddess, Gold, Cerberus, this time only one infiltrator.  I bleed out again.  The rest of the team is in The Room.  Again, Atlas coming through one entrance, two phantoms in the other entrance.  The two non-infiltrators are being rockets and stabbed to death non-stop.  The infiltrator, again, waltzing in between enemies and team, cloaking in plain sight, dumping aggro.

Later on, I play an infiltrator.  My infiltrators are level 19 all from character card spam.  I need 2 or 3 matches to get them to 20.  I run around the edges of the map, cloaked, putting my Reeger X right up in critter's cranium and melting them in a split second without getting shot.  I could have done just as well with a claymore, or a tooth pick.

Go ahead, tell me how much skill there is in using tactical cloak.  Tell me how much skill there is in using your team as a bullet sponge.  Tell me how much skill there is in shooting unaware targets in the back. 

Tactical Cloak = Easy Mode + Unfair to Non--Infiltrators.

Well for some reason when i play infiltrator, every single enemy ignores my cloak and continues to shoot me if i cloak in plain sight. And since AI got buffed, everything somehow sees me even if i cloak around a corner then come out to take a shot.

Geth Rocket Troopers fire at me when i'm cloaked (even with their backs turned
Primes (even without sight drone up) shoot me while im cloaked
Atlas targets me and stunlocks me with missiles even when im cloaked
Phantoms one-stab-kill me when i'm cloaked
Banshees magna-grab execution me from 20ft away even when im cloaked

Wait... i'll make this simple... EVERY enemy can now see me while im cloaked.

Oh and you can kill stuff in mere seconds with a Reegar if you run up close to them? REALLY? NO WAY

[COLZ7R]

Wow never seen this kind of stuff from the op before!!!

[Feauce]

PinkysPain wrote...

Feauce wrote...
Logical flaw in your link... Fray is PvP, while ME3 is co-op only.

Logical flaw in your thinking ... balance not being important in PvE.

As for balance, damage and survivability are unfortunately the only two relevant metrics in ME3 (with a very small bit of crowd control in the form of the decoy, it would be nice if there was more real crowd control and more effects from buffing/debuffing so we could add more axis on which to balance classes ... but that's not ME3 as it stands). Infiltrator has the crown in both (ignoring grenade spam) and hence no balance.

Straw Man Alert! That is not at all what I said or meant. Only one class having the ability to turn invisible is not as unbalancing in a PvE game as it is in PvP. Also, as you mention, the Decoy power is useful for crowd control, as are knockdown/knockback powers such as Concussive Shot, Shockwave, Throw, etc.

[Aetika]

ctr2yellowbird wrote...

The OP raised legitimate gameplay concerns, except I would not give the dumping aggro equal weight as the rest of his argument. Even Infiltrators draw some aggro, and I find that it's the Infiltrators who aren't contributing as much as they should be who make that redirected aggro a problem. Having read the first page (only, skipping the rest because ->), I'm quite surprised at how quick people are to judge the OP. Really. The volume of negative, faulty, over-reaching assumptions in response to the OP... is astounding. The OP merely relayed some recent gameplay experiences, then made some observations based on those experiences--nothing too far-fetched either--in a civilized manner. The response was anything but. Crass. Vitriolic. Caustic. I don't have very high expectations of the average gamer, but I thought this community was, on the whole, better.

I'm sorely tempted to report this whole thread and let a BW mod sort out you sad lot.

I find it rather interesting that you skip 7 pages of responses and than claim what a poor bunch of fellows we are, if you couldn´t even inform yourself what´s behind those responses.

edit: spelling

Modifié par Aetika, 17 juin 2012 - 08:20 .

[PinkysPain]

Feauce wrote...
Also, as you mention, the Decoy power is useful for crowd control, as are knockdown/knockback powers such as Concussive Shot, Shockwave, Throw, etc.

When you can actually target mooks they essentially die instantly (when you can't because you're forced into the open because of objective/banshee/phantom/whatever and you don't have time to target them, well nothing does you much good ... except for TC). Active crowd control which only works on mooks is irrelevant. Decoy is of course passive and works on bosses, which is why it's the only relevant one. Exception to prove the rule though.

It would be nice if there were more axis on which the game was balanced, but at the moment it's about damage and survivability ... and infiltrators win on both, hence no balance.

Modifié par PinkysPain, 17 juin 2012 - 08:36 .

[Fox-snipe]

PinkysPain wrote...
It would be nice if there were more axis on which the game was balanced, but at the moment it's about damage and survivability ... and infiltrators win on both, hence no balance.

On the same token, an Infiltrator's ability to survive also impacts the team's ability to survive.  You take the first away and you lessen the second.

Maybe most people won't notice it.  But from the way people complain about the Infiltrator being "easy mode," their high scores, etc. something tells me most of the complainers aren't going to be able to step their game up and will be downed just as often, but without that free 1UP being available.

Modifié par Fox-snipe, 17 juin 2012 - 08:54 .

[Feauce]

PinkysPain wrote...

When you can actually target mooks they essentially die instantly (when you can't because you're forced into the open because of objective/banshee/phantom/whatever and you don't have time to target them, well nothing does you much good ... except for TC). Active crowd control which only works on mooks is irrelevant. Decoy is of course passive and works on bosses, which is why it's the only relevant one. Exception to prove the rule though.

All forms of knockback will work on nearly every boss... I have no idea what you're on about here.

PinkysPain wrote...

It would be nice if there were more axis on which the game was balanced, but at the moment it's about damage and survivability ... and infiltrators win on both, hence no balance.

Nevermind Tech Armor, Blade Armor, Biotic Sphere, Barrier, Reave, Biotic Charge, or Energy Drain, all of which either restore shields/barrier or reduce damage taken... Only one of which a single Infiltrator gets. Yeah, we've got the monopoly on survivability.

[nicethugbert]

OblivionDawn wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

OblivionDawn wrote...

"Infiltrators dump aggro" is THE weakest argument I've ever seen/heard.

Most infiltrators don't stay cloaked long enough to let any "dumped aggro"  wander anywhere close to a teammate. And if they do, it's because they're reviving someone or capping an objective, both of which are acceptable.

This one match I was in, I played Infiltrator, the rest, other classes.  I did all the work while they just sat around playing cards until an enemy spotted them, then they played possum.  As soon as I shot the enemy dead, they went back to playing cards.  True story.

...Your point? Other than that you playing with some bad randoms?

Nothing, I was telling stories like you.

OblivionDawn wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

OblivionDawn wrote...

In a team where you are the only player that isn't an infiltrator, and they all happen to cloak at the same time, it would  make more sense. But that's an exception, not the rule.

Wait, I just read that "shooting targets in the back" bit. New weakest argument. It's called flanking, you do that in a shooting game. It's no more "easy mode" than powers that home in on the enemy and can hit them behind cover.

I see how you herp derp there.  Try flanking without Tac Cloak.

I really can't find the sarcasm in this, but I refuse to believe that you honestly think that you can't flank enemies without TC. Maybe if you completely suck at the game, but otherwise? It's as easy is taking a route that takes you behind your enemies, while your teammates draw fire. Any class can do it. Try it sometime.

So you continue with the EZ mode of spamming homing powers that can hit behind cover, and I'll continue with the "EZ mode" of cloaking to line up headshots.

You can flank enemies without TC, so why should TC be in the game?  So you don't have to work as a team using the Draw Fire Tactic to setup a flanking manuever?

I'll continue using my "EZ Mode" auto hit powers, getting shot while doing so, and lining up shots while my CD is in effect, taking shots while I do so.  You will continue using your EZ Mode Tactical Cloak not getting shot while lining up shots and you can feel like someone special because no one disturbs your peace and quiet while you line up a shot.

[WWNSX]

ctr2yellowbird wrote...

The OP raised legitimate gameplay concerns, except I would not give the dumping aggro equal weight as the rest of his argument. Even Infiltrators draw some aggro, and I find that it's the Infiltrators who aren't contributing as much as they should be who make that redirected aggro a problem. Having read the first page (only, skipping the rest because ->), I'm quite surprised at how quick people are to judge the OP. Really. The volume of negative, faulty, over-reaching assumptions in response to the OP... is astounding. The OP merely relayed some recent gameplay experiences, then made some observations based on those experiences--nothing too far-fetched either--in a civilized manner. The response was anything but. Crass. Vitriolic. Caustic. I don't have very high expectations of the average gamer, but I thought this community was, on the whole, better.

I'm sorely tempted to report this whole thread and let a BW mod sort out you sad lot.

Report the thread it's not like it's going to do anything unless the mods are silently around on the weekend.

You wonder why people are crass and hostile when we see daily threads on nerf the infiltrator. It becomes a mashup of "whine whine blah blah"  when we're constantly exposed to threads like this or on nerfing. People are tired of hearing it. now if there was a good suggestion on balancing with less whining the  opening post people might be receptive. I rather leave balancing up to Bioware then the community at this point.

as far as the OP. TC does take some situational awarness skill since you have use it a lot of the time or figure out when not to use it so your team doesn't draw too much aggro. I do not think it make Infiltrator easy mode since you do have to have some aiming skills for targets on the move with sniper rifles.

[nicethugbert]

Feauce wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

Tell me how much skill there is in using tactical cloak. Tell me how much skill there is in using your team as a bullet sponge.

I refuse to. Why? Because I don't have to justify how I play a game I paid for to someone like you. Now, if you want to be less whiny and rude, people would probably be more than willing to discuss all kinds of strategies for multiple classes/builds with you. As it is, the people have spoken, and the word is "Shut up."

EZ mode ez mode nya nya nya nya .....

Feauce wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

Tell me how much skill there is in shooting unaware targets in the back.

As above, I won't tell you, but I will say that there's more skill in shooting unaware targets in the head whlie they're moving. The Nemesis in particular.

That's nothing.  Try it without Tac Cloak.  She shoots back while you line up the shot.   She'll take all your shields in one shot.

[robarcool]

WWNSX wrote...

ctr2yellowbird wrote...

The OP raised legitimate gameplay concerns, except I would not give the dumping aggro equal weight as the rest of his argument. Even Infiltrators draw some aggro, and I find that it's the Infiltrators who aren't contributing as much as they should be who make that redirected aggro a problem. Having read the first page (only, skipping the rest because ->), I'm quite surprised at how quick people are to judge the OP. Really. The volume of negative, faulty, over-reaching assumptions in response to the OP... is astounding. The OP merely relayed some recent gameplay experiences, then made some observations based on those experiences--nothing too far-fetched either--in a civilized manner. The response was anything but. Crass. Vitriolic. Caustic. I don't have very high expectations of the average gamer, but I thought this community was, on the whole, better.

I'm sorely tempted to report this whole thread and let a BW mod sort out you sad lot.

Report the thread it's not like it's going to do anything unless the mods are silently around on the weekend.

You wonder why people are crass and hostile when we see daily threads on nerf the infiltrator. It becomes a mashup of "whine whine blah blah"  when we're constantly exposed to threads like this or on nerfing. People are tired of hearing it. now if there was a good suggestion on balancing with less whining the  opening post people might be receptive. I rather leave balancing up to Bioware then the community at this point.

as far as the OP. TC does take some situational awarness skill since you have use it a lot of the time or figure out when not to use it so your team doesn't draw too much aggro. I do not think it make Infiltrator easy mode since you do have to have some aiming skills for targets on the move with sniper rifles.

Don't try to reason with OP. His only answer is: 'Infiltrator is easy mode because it cowardly dumps aggro and gets high damage.' This is what I see in all his posts and his answer to every single counter argument.

[PinkysPain]

Feauce wrote...
Nevermind Tech Armor, Blade Armor, Biotic Sphere, Barrier, Reave, Biotic Charge, or Energy Drain, all of which either restore shields/barrier or reduce damage taken... Only one of which a single Infiltrator gets. Yeah, we've got the monopoly on survivability.

Yes, yes you do ... shield gating stops more damage than all those combined except for TC, that's the reality of the game.

[WWNSX]

robarcool wrote...


Don't try to reason with OP. His only answer is: 'Infiltrator is easy mode because it cowardly dumps aggro and gets high damage.' This is what I see in all his posts and his answer to every single counter argument.

I don't except any good response after seeing the posts in this thread especially page 7. Besides I'm off to catch a flick for Father's Day.

Stay classy BSN.

[Tankcommander]

Feauce wrote...
Nevermind Tech Armor, Blade Armor, Biotic Sphere, Barrier, Reave, Biotic Charge, or Energy Drain, all of which either restore shields/barrier or reduce damage taken... Only one of which a single Infiltrator gets. Yeah, we've got the monopoly on survivability.

[JaimasOfRaxis]

Oh, they complain now, but the second they need to haul ass to an objective or get revived, they'll be the first to suck up to you.

[Ashen One]

PinkysPain wrote...

Feauce wrote...
Nevermind Tech Armor, Blade Armor, Biotic Sphere, Barrier, Reave, Biotic Charge, or Energy Drain, all of which either restore shields/barrier or reduce damage taken... Only one of which a single Infiltrator gets. Yeah, we've got the monopoly on survivability.

Yes, yes you do ... shield gating stops more damage than all those combined except for TC, that's the reality of the game.

My Krogan Sentinel would like to have a word with you.

Bring a body bag.

[nicethugbert]

Sabbatine wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

Later on was playing firebase Goddess, Gold, with two infiltrators and another non-infiltrator.  I bleed out.  The rest of the team is in The Room.  An Atlas coming through one entrance, two phantoms coming in through the other.  the non-infiltrator is in a perpetual state of stun lock, death, and revive.  The two infiltrators are waltzing in between the enemies and team, cloaking in plain sight, dumping aggro on this poor guy who can't do anything but get killed.

If this was happening, you weren't playing on gold.  Cloaking in plain sight doesn't dump agro.  That may happen on silver or bronze, but is not the case on gold.  Atlas mechs and phantoms don't switch targets if you cloak right in front of them, in fact they don't even slow down their shooting.

nicethugbert wrote... 

Later on, another match on Goddess, Gold, Cerberus, this time only one infiltrator.  I bleed out again.  The rest of the team is in The Room.  Again, Atlas coming through one entrance, two phantoms in the other entrance.  The two non-infiltrators are being rockets and stabbed to death non-stop.  The infiltrator, again, waltzing in between enemies and team, cloaking in plain sight, dumping aggro.

Again, this doesn't happen in gold... not the way you have described it.

nicethugbert wrote... 

Go ahead, tell me how much skill there is in using tactical cloak.  Tell me how much skill there is in using your team as a bullet sponge.  Tell me how much skill there is in shooting unaware targets in the back.

You are either lying or profoundly ignorant, any attempt to explain how tactical cloak works (especially on gold) to you would be wasted.  You've already made up your mind and won't let something like the facts get in the way of your opinion.

Maybe you should try spectating over an Infiltrator's shoulders some times.  You might learn some things like how to use TC to make Decoys.

Atlases are incredibly slow and easy to get past and easily forget what's behind them as soon as it cloaks.  All enemies prefer the non-cloaked target next to them over the cloaked target away from them.

But, there are things I just don't understand.  I was hoping an expert like you could inform me.  Tell me how much skill there is in using tactical cloak.  Tell me how much skill there is in using your team as a bullet sponge.  Tell me how much skill there is in shooting unaware targets in the back. 

Modifié par nicethugbert, 17 juin 2012 - 09:22 .

[robarcool]

WWNSX wrote...

robarcool wrote...


Don't try to reason with OP. His only answer is: 'Infiltrator is easy mode because it cowardly dumps aggro and gets high damage.' This is what I see in all his posts and his answer to every single counter argument.

I don't except any good response after seeing the posts in this thread especially page 7. Besides I'm off to catch a flick for Father's Day.

Stay classy BSN.

Now that you said it, I took a look at the OP's responses on page 7. OMG, can't stop laughing. Same text, copy and paste. He is now almost spamming!