87 réponses à ce sujet

[MANoob]

F-C wrote...


yes because it would break pvp and stuff.

Do you think pvm cant be broken? Currently there are several ways of making a nearly invulnerable character.

[DragoonKain3]

Order of solo challenges, roughly in the order of hardest to easiest would be...
2H warrior
-
Shield Warrior 
DW warrior
-
Mage
-
Rogue
-
pre-fix Shimmering Shield Arcane Warrior

Rogue is by far the easiest character to solo the game with using mechanics as intended. Should we nerf Rogue then? No, because the game is balanced for group PvE.


And since the game is balanced for PvE, having an unhittable tank still makes them vulnerable to autohits. Spells can be trivialized, but there are non-spell abilities that deal elemental damage and dragon grabs will still kill you regardless. Not only that, but multiple scattershots will still instagib you. So while you're much more survivable than a CON tank, you're still not completely invulnerable.

Not only that, even with a dagger, a shield warriors DPS is still severely hampered due to lack of damage abilities/sustains. Nerfing their 'tankability' would then make them a wasted slot in the party, because it would be better just to have another damage dealer if your tank cannot survive the aggro he gets.

As such, I really see no need a nerf to DEX. You're giving up CON after all, so it better be darn worth it (and for the record, it is worth it using the game mechanics now). There will always be the 'best' build for a certain role in your party, and it just happens to be DEX focus for tanks right now, just like it is MAG for mages and CUN for rogues. Doesn't mean we should nerf DEX/MAG/CUN, just make the other attributes (particularly CON/WIL) more useful than they already are.

[MR-9]

Timortis wrote...

I soloed NM with a 2H berserker/reaver, didn't skip any encounters or side quests.

Cool story bro.

[MANoob]

2 DragoonKain3 :
I've soloed the game as a mage without abusing SS an it was rather easy from level 1 to the end, SS fix didnt change much. Even without SS you have more armor than anyone else (and its enough to migitate most damage) and can some crazy self healing abiliies (I almost didnt have to use potions). You dont have to fear other mages because of mana clash and spell shield, so you shouldnt even bother getting SR items. Soloing with a rogue is very hard until level 8, but very doable afterwards with a heavy stealth abuse.

Speaking about nerfs, I think stealth should be nerfed (I would even say 'fixed').

Attack and defense scaling are a problem, so if you dont want to nerf it should be solved by some other means. Tanks should not be unhittable, they should just be more resilient than non-tanks. Give perfect striking to most high level warrior mobs pehaps? And I agree that CON/WIL should be buffed.

PS: SR and displacement 100% caps are just stupid. Currently there is at least one 100% displacement and SR build. They should be reduced to smth like 50% I think.

Modifié par MANoob, 13 décembre 2009 - 07:20 .

[MR-9]

Some guy a while back did an AW solo run on Hard and extensively documented it on the forums, near the end of the game he was untouchable.

Modifié par MR-9, 13 décembre 2009 - 07:21 .

[Tyrax Lightning]

MR-9 wrote...

Some guy a while back did an AW solo run on Hard and extensively documented it on the forums, near the end of the game he was untouchable.

Ya think that's buff, check this out:

http://social.biowar...20/index/164126

I think it's ridiculous that Dex is the Defense giver. It should be Con. Defense means getting tougher & more rugged. You don't get tougher & more rugged by gettin more agile, ya get tougher & more rugged by getting healthier & fitter. Defense is a fortitude attribute, not a finesse attribute.

If they wanna fix Dex & Con, move the defense bonus from Dex to Con.

My 1 1/2 cents.

[MR-9]

Tyrax Lightning wrote...

MR-9 wrote...

Some guy a while back did an AW solo run on Hard and extensively documented it on the forums, near the end of the game he was untouchable.

Ya think that's buff, check this out:

http://social.biowar...20/index/164126

I think it's ridiculous that Dex is the Defense giver. It should be Con. Defense means getting tougher & more rugged. You don't get tougher & more rugged by gettin more agile, ya get tougher & more rugged by getting healthier & fitter. Defense is a fortitude attribute, not a finesse attribute.

If they wanna fix Dex & Con, move the defense bonus from Dex to Con.

My 1 1/2 cents.

Damn dude that is beast. Also, I agree with your stance on the defense change. This is something the modding community could grab and run with.

[DragoonKain3]

Man, if CON gives +5 health AND +1 defense, that just made the problem worse lol. Even at +5 hp/+0.5 DEF, its still CRAZY good... in fact, I'd rather get for my tank +5hp/+0.5 defense via CON rather than +1def/+x damage from DEX we're getting right now.

Seriously guys, these 'knee-jerk fixes' don't really solve anything. As a powergamer, I can easily see ways to still break the system, or even if it makes it worse.

And quite frankly, there are worse problems out there that needs more immediate fixing. Like 2H wield tree being quite gimped in comparison to other trees.


@OP
So does that mean we need to nerf Arcane Warrior even worse? I'm just saying, there are worse things out there than DEX tanks being unhittable, and its THESE issues that needs to be addressed first. Besides, DEX tanks being unhittable is not as gamebreaking as it sounds; my DEX tank still had in the order of ~15 injuries over the course of the game, to put it in perspective.

It's powerful, but not invulnerable. Seriously, if DEX tanks needs to be nerfed, then you practically have to nerf everything else since it ranks pretty low in the 'broken' scale. (See above list where Shield warriors rank second to the last in terms of difficulty soloing nightmare)

Giving Perfect Striking is a good thing for high level melee. In fact, one such boss that shall rename unnamed due to spoiler reasons was the bane of my DEX tank, and got him killed twice during the same battle. But the problem with this is that there really ain't a lot of high level warrior melee bosses... most of them are like monsters or some such.

Modifié par DragoonKain3, 13 décembre 2009 - 08:46 .

[Felix_Domestica]

I played with a rogue archer and rogue dual wielder and I was overpowered about 10 level both times. I really fail to see how dexterity is broken...

[Gecon]

Havlock556 wrote...

How in the world should con or will affect defense?

This is a stupid question.

How in the world does Cunning add damage to Rogues with Lethality ? Cunning is some property of your mind, after all.

How in the world does Dexterity add damage to crossbow attacks (well at least that was intended, even if they forgot implementing it) ?

How in the world is it possible that of two human beings, both subjected to the exactly same attacks, one drops dead and the other survives ? Just because someone thought up the concept of "Constitution" and one guy still has hitpoints ?

Why does Cunning help you with opening traps ? You arent trying to inventing new traps, after all - and theres only that many in existence already.

[aimlessgun]

It's broken....but considering how broken other things are, I think it's only fair that warriors get a way to be broken too eh



Though I do admit that DW beserker/templar with 100% spell resist, 100 physical resist, that STILL does massive DPS is a little bit more broken than mages.

[MANoob]

2DragoonKain3
Nerf AWs or buff mobs. Make them use mana clash, spell shield etc. That should be fun.

2aimlessgun :
A warrior hardly can match a mage in terms of survivability, so imo ts not as broken as mages , At least you need expensive gear and rely on traps/bombs and pulling in a solo run. Mage's virulent walking bomb + force field tactics and 100+ lightning staff damage make mobs cry.

Modifié par MANoob, 13 décembre 2009 - 09:17 .

[aimlessgun]

Ok so I guess forcefield is technically more survivable, but not by much hehe.



Because 100% spell resist is exactly what it sounds like: you are immune to all spell effects and damage. Just barely enough STR to wear the 40% resist armor, rest into dex, and you are effectively immune to physical attacks as well. Yeah, you'll get hit once in a while, and your passive HP regen will outheal that damage. Though I guess an emissary could staff you to death if you chose to ignore them heh.



It is true that the ball doesn't get rolling without the endgame gear though, and you might have to use traps/bombs before getting your set together.

[Bullets McDeath]

Tyrax Lightning wrote...

MR-9 wrote...

Some guy a while back did an AW solo run on Hard and extensively documented it on the forums, near the end of the game he was untouchable.

Ya think that's buff, check this out:

http://social.biowar...20/index/164126

I think it's ridiculous that Dex is the Defense giver. It should be Con. Defense means getting tougher & more rugged. You don't get tougher & more rugged by gettin more agile, ya get tougher & more rugged by getting healthier & fitter. Defense is a fortitude attribute, not a finesse attribute.

If they wanna fix Dex & Con, move the defense bonus from Dex to Con.

My 1 1/2 cents.

Actually, Defense means getting more agile and doging attacks, which is why Dex adds to it. Armor mitigates damage. Constitution raises your HP so you can take more damage. Works well, makes perfect sense as is.

[Whist Darkblade]

And well uh....*newsflash*



"Tanks should be designed to withstand damage, drawing fire and attack from the DS. While Rogue, or mages, pick them off. So strength is not really need except for higher lvl armour. Dex is virtually pointless as well since DPS is not the goal of a tank.



Sooo......Tank building key skill????? anyone????





DEFENSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DUH!!!!!!!!!! IF you want to build a dex based PC just as the description of Dex states rogues benifit the most from this skill not warriors

[MANoob]

2 aimlessgun:

Having mana clash is almost the same as having 100% spell resistance, and you dont need any gear for it. Anyway most mobs are non-mages and better survivability comes from stacking rock armor with normal plate. AW's defense will be the same if not better if you pump both dex and magic, but with health regen items you barely need it.

[aimlessgun]

Ahh mana clash.



Anyways I'm not sure if survivability can be described as 'better' when both routes lead to invincibility. Is one form of invincibility better than another? It's like degrees of infinity here

[Tyrax Lightning]

outlaworacle wrote...

Tyrax Lightning wrote...

MR-9 wrote...

Some guy a while back did an AW solo run on Hard and extensively documented it on the forums, near the end of the game he was untouchable.

Ya think that's buff, check this out:

http://social.biowar...20/index/164126

I think it's ridiculous that Dex is the Defense giver. It should be Con. Defense means getting tougher & more rugged. You don't get tougher & more rugged by gettin more agile, ya get tougher & more rugged by getting healthier & fitter. Defense is a fortitude attribute, not a finesse attribute.

If they wanna fix Dex & Con, move the defense bonus from Dex to Con.

My 1 1/2 cents.

Actually, Defense means getting more agile and doging attacks, which is why Dex adds to it. Armor mitigates damage. Constitution raises your HP so you can take more damage. Works well, makes perfect sense as is.

Dodging attacks = evasion. Not the same as Defense, which is how tough & resistant to damage you are. For defense, you're striving to have your body durability defy the efforts of the enemy attacks to successfully damage your body to remove your life from you by force, where as with Evasion, you're attempting to avoid the blow entirely & not need to absorb the blow & endure it instead. That's how I see it.

Damage Absorption vs Damage Avoidance. At this time, Dex gives ya both at the same time. Compared to this, it's no wonder that Con is lookin shafted by comparison. This is (Imho) borked. Dex should be giving ONLY damage avoidance, & Con should give Damage Absorption.

My 1 1/2 cents. (Which is for idea storming & discussion. I'm not trying to ruffle anyone's feathers.)

[Bullets McDeath]

The description of Defense, and how it functions in the game is Defense = dodge. This is not clashing opinions here, this is how it was designed and implemented in the game. Defense allows you to avoid attacks altogether, not be tougher against them. That's what Armor is for.  Armor subtracts from damage taken when you do get hit. Constitution makes you tougher by giving you more HP.

Modifié par outlaworacle, 13 décembre 2009 - 09:47 .

[Tyrax Lightning]

outlaworacle wrote...

The description of Defense, and how it functions in the game is Defense = dodge. This is not clashing opinions here, this is how it was designed and implemented in the game. Defense allows you to avoid attacks altogether, not be tougher against them. That's what Armor is for.  Armor subtracts from damage taken when you do get hit. Constitution makes you tougher by giving you more HP.

 They set Defense as dodge rate? That doesn't make any sense. Dodge rate already has a proper designation, Evasion. How is anyone gonna look at 'Defense' & not think 'Damage Absorption'?

Is damage absorption in this game armor exclusive?

Modifié par Tyrax Lightning, 13 décembre 2009 - 09:52 .

[Bullets McDeath]

As always, it's possible I am wrong. Where are you getting an Evasion stat from? My characters show Armor, Defense, Attack, Damage.

[Bullets McDeath]

Yeah, just double-checked to be sure... there is no Evasion stat, unless I am majorly overlooking something. And from the Dragon Age wiki... http://dragonage.wik...om/wiki/Defense

[Tirigon]

Dragon Age is so damn broken, we should delete it entirely and make another game, if possible something that has NOTHING to do with the current thing, dont you think? Maybe a shooter, where you dont have to worry about "broken" attributes..............



(Irony off:) These "XYZ is terribly broken!" threads are such a bunch of crap. There is really nothing useful in them, and most of the complaints are stupid as sh!t.



BTT:I am always playing my Tank (Alistair) with mostly strength, then dex and a little con, and im neither having him OP nor useless. He can tank quite well, though he isnt immortal, and he can do decent damage. There is no need to go for calculating things like how many defense you get. Anyways, dex isnt that important for defense. Some of my guys had over 100 defense with less than 40 dex.

And one last thing: Dont you feel really f*cking STUPID to play a armoured warrior with shield and a DAGGER?! That must look so ridiculous, and its nonsense. A little RP maybe........

[MANoob]

Tirigon wrote...

Dragon Age is so damn broken, we should delete it entirely and make another game, if possible something that has NOTHING to do with the current thing, dont you think? Maybe a shooter, where you dont have to worry about "broken" attributes..............
.

No, just make a mod

(Irony off:) These "XYZ is terribly broken!" threads are such a bunch of crap. There is really nothing useful in them, and most of the complaints are stupid as sh!t.

You don't like it, you don't post here.

And one last thing: Dont you feel really f*cking STUPID to play a armoured warrior with shield and a DAGGER?! That must look so ridiculous, and its nonsense. A little RP maybe........

I do

2Tyrax Lightning :
Your ideas are good, I was suggesting the same. Pehaps not 0.5/0.5 spilit between dex and con but smth like 0.75/0.25. That would require some testing of course.

Modifié par MANoob, 13 décembre 2009 - 10:24 .

[soteria]

Yes, Tyrax Lightning, Defense = Evasion, essentially. I disagree with taking defense and moving it to Con just because then instead of everyone pumping Dex with a little Con thrown in everyone would pump con and just ignore everything else. Ideally we should have good reason to take both stats, and I think that's what the dev's intended--it just didn't work out in practice.



On paper one stat is always going to be better than the other, and the real min/maxers will go with that. Imo, a fix might still be to either slightly nerf the defense from dexterity, give armor from con as a couple of us as suggested, or even just reduce the hp you get per level so con looks more necessary to survive attacks. Also, the 100% magic immunity you can get is kinda bad.