87 réponses à ce sujet

[metatrans]

its a single player game. its strange to ask for this type of balancing since there's an implicit assumption that some kind of player vs. player would be the source of a problem.



in a single player game the only cause for rebalancing is if something trivializes the game too much. maybe you could argue that an invincible warrior does that. im not convinced though.

[MANoob]

metatrans wrote...

its a single player game. its strange to ask for this type of balancing since there's an implicit assumption that some kind of player vs. player would be the source of a problem.

Don know where did you get that idea, I was speaking about pvm only.

in a single player game the only cause for rebalancing is if something trivializes the game too much. maybe you could argue that an invincible warrior does that. im not convinced though.

Well, Its pretty stupid when 90% of  the mobs can hurt you at all.

Modifié par MANoob, 13 décembre 2009 - 11:02 .

[MANoob]

soteria wrote...
 Also, the 100% magic immunity you can get is kinda bad.

Technically the engine allows you to get 100% displacement as well, although they didnt place as much displacement gear. But there is at least one build that can reach it.

[Bullets McDeath]

soteria wrote...

Yes, Tyrax Lightning, Defense = Evasion, essentially. I disagree with taking defense and moving it to Con just because then instead of everyone pumping Dex with a little Con thrown in everyone would pump con and just ignore everything else. Ideally we should have good reason to take both stats, and I think that's what the dev's intended--it just didn't work out in practice.

On paper one stat is always going to be better than the other, and the real min/maxers will go with that. Imo, a fix might still be to either slightly nerf the defense from dexterity, give armor from con as a couple of us as suggested, or even just reduce the hp you get per level so con looks more necessary to survive attacks. Also, the 100% magic immunity you can get is kinda bad.

Perhaps make the defense bonus .05 to Dex AND Con... rationalized as hey, a tougher body does help you shrug off some damage... that way there's still a good reason to take both status.

[Sylixe]

Remember to keep in mind though that it's impossible to solo this game on Nightmare. Because you know a couple people who cannot think outside the box and don't understand stats have said so.

I'm sure after reading all of these stories and documentation they'll say we somehow cheated. Even though it didn't take much effort to discover how to abuse the games mechanics and stat allocation.

deathwing200 wrote...

Sylixe wrote...

Care to tell me which encounters you think would be undoable?  Seeing as how a lot of people, including myself, have soloed this game on nightmare already.

How about posting your spec first?

I did it early on as an AW/BM but really that is just stupidly easy and shouldn't count but it is easy to do.  Once you hit level 14 you are pretty much unkillable.  I have gone back into several different saves i have with multiple characters and replayed against a great many of the bosses with varient builds.  The true measure of power in a build should be if you can solo Gaxkang.  This is the one boss some builds that can solo effectively cannot do.  Without a way to clear Mortality debuff you lose and it's like that with a few others.  However because of it's cooldown and how easy a dispel is to grab you can adjust each build to compensate and give yourself a chance at the fight.

Modifié par Sylixe, 14 décembre 2009 - 01:44 .

[Gliese]

A complex solution might work but how about just using ye olde system from BG and cap attack and defense probability at 95%?

Well come tot hink of it, in BG healing is not nearly as easy as in DAO though I'd like to see healing seriously nerfed in DAO so that might do it. Perhaps 90% is a better cap?

Modifié par Gliese, 14 décembre 2009 - 05:06 .

[MANoob]

2 Gliese:

Might work as well. I'd even say 80%.

[deathwing200]

DragoonKain3 wrote...

Order of solo challenges, roughly in the order of hardest to easiest would be...
2H warrior
-
Shield Warrior 
DW warrior
-
Mage
-
Rogue
-
pre-fix Shimmering Shield Arcane Warrior

Rogue is by far the easiest character to solo the game with using mechanics as intended. Should we nerf Rogue then? No, because the game is balanced for group PvE.

I'm sorry, but what is this?

How is soloing as DW warrior viable? You have zero way to mitigate spell damage, until you're literally swimming in gear. Any CC is a reload. Any ambush is reload. Okay, so shield warrior might have better physical mitigation, but until that elusive spell immunity kicks in, you're also at the mercy of casters.

The only thing I can think of is dump into STR, then drop forced party members in Lothering, use Dragon Armor and complete quests, which don't include mages. However you'll still need to be sword and board because DW can't mitigate damage at all until you have a lot of dex.

[soteria]

deathwing200 wrote...

DragoonKain3 wrote...

Order of solo challenges, roughly in the order of hardest to easiest would be...
2H warrior
-
Shield Warrior 
DW warrior
-
Mage
-
Rogue
-
pre-fix Shimmering Shield Arcane Warrior

Rogue is by far the easiest character to solo the game with using mechanics as intended. Should we nerf Rogue then? No, because the game is balanced for group PvE.

I'm sorry, but what is this?

How is soloing as DW warrior viable? You have zero way to mitigate spell damage, until you're literally swimming in gear. Any CC is a reload. Any ambush is reload. Okay, so shield warrior might have better physical mitigation, but until that elusive spell immunity kicks in, you're also at the mercy of casters.

The only thing I can think of is dump into STR, then drop forced party members in Lothering, use Dragon Armor and complete quests, which don't include mages. However you'll still need to be sword and board because DW can't mitigate damage at all until you have a lot of dex.

Deathwing, when you try to tell someone that something they have already done is impossible, you just end up looking stupid and closedminded.  This game just isn't that hard; people can picked from over a half-dozen things to exploit when they play solo runs.

[Tirigon]

Lots of these solo-runs are somehow cheated or bugged or whatever anyways - or maybe my game is. But when I read an AW couldnt get wounded anymore, I really have to laugh about that. My AW had 60 armor, and maxed all resistences by shimmering shield, and certain bosses could still kill him with 4 or 5 attacks on easy difficulty.......

[MANoob]

Tirigon wrote...

Lots of these solo-runs are somehow cheated or bugged or whatever anyways - or maybe my game is. But when I read an AW couldnt get wounded anymore, I really have to laugh about that. My AW had 60 armor, and maxed all resistences by shimmering shield, and certain bosses could still kill him with 4 or 5 attacks on easy difficulty.......

Then you are doing smth wrong, maybe you dont have enough defense or I dont know what.Most bosses are very easy as  AW on nightmare. Tbh groups of archers with shattering shot are much more difficult. AW can be wounded, but with enough mana regen you self heal faster than you take dmg. In my AW solo run I used SS only a couple of times and never exploited the fact that it didn't turn off at 0 mana. Mage solo run is rather smooth, its competely doable from level 1 without exploits.

[SheffSteel]

The fix that's missing is for a character's Armour to reduce their Defence rating.



That might sound counter-intuitive, but remember that the Defence rating is really the ability to dodge an attack (which is why it's entirely based on DEX). The more armour you wear, the less easy it should be to dodge attacks. As it stands, the only cost of wearing heavy armour is Fatigue, which doesn't amount to much (I think it shouldn't have been a static cost but a dynamic drain as your character fights).



The effect of this fix would be that anyone who wanted to build an ultimate Dodge machine would have to equip them in no more than light armour. That sounds about right to me.

[Jordi B]

Wouldn't that just force you to make a choice? A choice that would make defense even more preferable than it already is? The thing is, if you have high defense, you will barely be hit, which means you don't need armor. So I think that this gives almost no penalty to the defense-centric character. A character who wants to focus on armor still greatly benefits from pretty much any defense he could get, so he would be nerfed by this.

I like your EULA though. I think it's the only one I've ever completely read.

[deathwing200]

soteria wrote...


Deathwing, when you try to tell someone that something they have already done is impossible, you just end up looking stupid and closedminded.  This game just isn't that hard; people can picked from over a half-dozen things to exploit when they play solo runs.

Umm, people can say anything they want, doesn't necessarily make it so. I'd even be satisfied with character screenshot showing 0 injuries and 95%+ party damage as well as Arch Demon kill. Like I said, it's easy to claim ridiculous **** without proof.

Modifié par deathwing200, 14 décembre 2009 - 03:46 .

[Lord Phoebus]

SheffSteel wrote...

The fix that's missing is for a character's Armour to reduce their Defence rating.

That might sound counter-intuitive, but remember that the Defence rating is really the ability to dodge an attack (which is why it's entirely based on DEX). The more armour you wear, the less easy it should be to dodge attacks. As it stands, the only cost of wearing heavy armour is Fatigue, which doesn't amount to much (I think it shouldn't have been a static cost but a dynamic drain as your character fights).

The effect of this fix would be that anyone who wanted to build an ultimate Dodge machine would have to equip them in no more than light armour. That sounds about right to me.

Not really, since the more armor you have the less you have to move to deflect the attack which also mitigates the damage.  I.e. you don't have to move your arm out of the way of the sword blow, you just have to angle it enough so that the blow hits the bracer at angle that it glances off.

The problem is dex is is +1 defense, +0.5 attack, +0.5 damage (if you're using a dagger) .  It might be better to make dex +0.5 defense, +0.5 attack, +0.5 damage (if you're using a dagger)  and also make strength +0.5 defense (since strength is raw speed; how fast you can accelerate yourself out of the way), +0.5 attack, +damage.  That would balance strength and dex, giving a warrior the option to go pure strength, pure dex or some combo of the two.  That puts constitution in the same boat that willpower is for a mage.  Maybe your stamina bonus should be tied to constitution making strength or dex and con  important for warrior, strength or dex and cunning important for a rogue and magic and willpower important for a mage.

But yeah, +1 defense is too much per attribute point and completely broken when it also adds damage and attack.

Modifié par Lord Phoebus, 14 décembre 2009 - 04:06 .

[Lord Phoebus]

Double post.

Modifié par Lord Phoebus, 14 décembre 2009 - 04:06 .

[SheffSteel]

Jordi, you've got a point... I still think that a player, if they decide to play a swashbuckler type of character, should be able to go for lighter armour and be able to dodge better.

[MANoob]

2deathwing200:
Here you go.
http://img686.images...1205112743.jpg/
Haven't finished warrior playthrough, so I can post any proofs yet.

On topic: Integrating last ideas, a slight differentiation of max dodge chance depending on type of armor might work fine. It won't affect armor users, with the exception of those that have crazy defense as well.

Modifié par MANoob, 14 décembre 2009 - 04:36 .

[deathwing200]

MANoob wrote...

2deathwing200:
Here you go.
http://img686.images...1205112743.jpg/
Haven't finished warrior playthrough, so I can post any proofs yet.

On topic: Integrating last ideas, a slight differentiation of max dodge chance depending on type of armor might work fine. It won't affect armor users, with the exception of those that have crazy defense as well.

Yeah, that's a mage. I soloed with a mage easily enough myself. Eagerly waiting for your warrior completion.

[Loc'n'lol]

MANoob wrote...

On topic: Integrating last ideas, a slight differentiation of max dodge chance depending on type of armor might work fine. It won't affect armor users, with the exception of those that have crazy defense as well.

Oh now that's a neat idea, I like it.
Because quite frankly, as it is now, if I had a choice between going naked with an extremly high defense rating or wearing massive dragonbone with 0 defense, I'd take the first choice.

[DragoonKain3]

@Deathwing
Seriously? The only advantage early game a Shield warrior has over the DW warrior is his shield (which that early is like only 3 points of DEF), because Shield Defense = Dual Weapon Finesse. Plus the DW can pump DEX like a madman from the get go... in fact, this is what they should do since they want Momentum ASAP. As such, DW warrior has almost as much survivability as the Shield Warrior, but at twice the DPS.

And if people can solo the entire game as 2H on nightmare, and 2H being the most gimped of the wield styles, then it should be doable with warrior DW/Shield.

Maybe you should hang around the gameplay forum more? These people have no reason to lie, and I see no reason why we should dismiss their claims just because you 'think' its impossible. >_>

EDIT: http://social.biowar...66/index/432510
If you really want proof, ask him for a screenshot.

Modifié par DragoonKain3, 14 décembre 2009 - 04:45 .

[Bibdy]

Err is my math off, because I thought hit chance was (50 + Attacker's Attack - Defender's Defense)?



How does hit chance approach 0 with infinite Attack and Defense?

[Bibdy]

_Loc_N_lol_ wrote...

MANoob wrote...

On topic: Integrating last ideas, a slight differentiation of max dodge chance depending on type of armor might work fine. It won't affect armor users, with the exception of those that have crazy defense as well.

Oh now that's a neat idea, I like it.
Because quite frankly, as it is now, if I had a choice between going naked with an extremly high defense rating or wearing massive dragonbone with 0 defense, I'd take the first choice.

So you'd seriously rather have a 20% chance of being 1-shot, than mitigate 80% of incoming damage?

[soteria]

deathwing200 wrote...

soteria wrote...


Deathwing, when you try to tell someone that something they have already done is impossible, you just end up looking stupid and closedminded.  This game just isn't that hard; people can picked from over a half-dozen things to exploit when they play solo runs.

Umm, people can say anything they want, doesn't necessarily make it so. I'd even be satisfied with character screenshot showing 0 injuries and 95%+ party damage as well as Arch Demon kill. Like I said, it's easy to claim ridiculous **** without proof.

Well, given how easy it is to prove/disprove, there's really no point in their lying about it, now is there?  Telling someone something is impossible in a game that has this many exploits is just asking for someone to make you look dumb.  But, by all means, carry on.

[DragoonKain3]

Bibdy wrote...

Err is my math off, because I thought hit chance was (50 + Attacker's Attack - Defender's Defense)?

How does hit chance approach 0 with infinite Attack and Defense?

Not infinite ATK/DEF, but equal amounts of STR/DEX and you approach that to infinity. STR/DEX only gives 0.5 ATK while DEX gives 1.0 DEF. So at high values of attribute points and assuming equal attacker STR/DEX compared to defender DEX, you will achieve 0 hit rate.

This arguement might hold true if you have extreme levels, but fact is, the game is balanced around you hitting level 22 or 23. Even at that point, you won't reach 100% dodge rate without some help from equips or spell buffs like Heroic Defense. And even then, there are still other things that you have to worry about.