767 réponses à ce sujet

[Jerrybnsn]

ashwind wrote...

Does anyone seriously think that DA2 would be much better if it had a silent PC and different races to select from??

Absolutely.  That was one of the big points that Origins had received praise for.  Each time you played the game over with another race, it was like a completely different game.

  Human, Dwarf, Elves - Now imagine they all live in the same tiny boring city for the entire game, revisit same buildings and dungeons the entire game. Randomly pick up something on the ground and deliver it to some random NPC and mashing the "awesome" button mindlessly through waves of ninjas the entire game..

Agree.  Those where bad directions to take the DA franchise.

Even if each race has its unique VO - DA2 will still not do any better than it is now.

  Missing race options was a bigger deal than not outfitting your companions or reused maps.  So it would have been better, and also would have forced the direction of the game to reflect your choice of race, thus making a slightly longer game and giving you more choice.....So yeah, again, it would have been better then having a metacritic average of 4 out of 10.

  Race is the least of DA2's shortcoming and if VO must be sacrificed for something, it should not be for the sake of race.

I disagree because Origins set the standard for the rest of the series.  VO was adopted for the second game, hence dropping race options and the second game paled in comparison to its predecessor.  Since the race option was praised for Origins, you can't delete it for the rest of the series like it was an option that players didn't want. 

[AkiKishi]

thats1evildude wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

DAO's conversations, and KotOR's conversations, and NWN's conversations, and BG's conversations all worked exactly like real world conversations.

You choose to say something from a list of possible things you could say (I usually compose and discard several before I find one I like), and then you say it however it is you want to say it.  Then the other person responds to you, and why he responded as he did or how that response relates to what you said is a complete mystery.

That's how real world conversations work, and that's how BioWare's conversations worked before they started voicing the PC.

Are you high?! Dragon Age is about as far as far from a realistic conversation simulator as you can get.

People don't stare blankly at each other during conversations while they run a mental list of dialogue options; they just "respond" ,unless they're carefully considering their words. They also frequently interrupt each other, ignore what is being said or talk over the other person.

When the pizza guy comes to the door, I say "thank you" and give him his money. A menu doesn't pop up in my head with the following options:

1) Thank you. (pay)
2) (aggressive) Give me that damn pizza and get the hell off my porch!
3) (seductive) Is there some other way I can pay for that pizza?
4) DIE, PIMPLY-FACED TEENAGER! (stab with murder knife)

Incidentally, the Mass Effect system is also inappropriate for real life. 

To me it's always been like multiple choice testing. There are some obviously wrong answers, some that might be right and one that is probably correct, depending on the character.

You can't do first person roleplaying when you don't know what the character is going to say before they say it. That seems to be the objection.

[GodWood]

Lenimph wrote...
There are still people butthurt about how they can't read their pc's lines to themselves in their silly roleplay voices?
How many months ago did Bioware say silent protagonists were dead to them? Can we get over this already? Besides the only game I felt a silent protagonist truely worked for without feeling awkward at all was Okami and do you know why? Because I was playing as a freaking wolf, and even she barked up a hellstorm! I'm so glad Bioware is going to stick to a VO protagonist, and I feel that if they brought back race choice no one would be complaining right now. Unless you know you're really upset about not being able to read those lines to yourself, regardless of the fact that you can present them to yourself wrong and the fixed character reactions ruin that anyway.

I apologize for prefferring a game mechanic that enhances roleplaying opportunities in a roleplaying game.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

I think you're overestimating the impact of VO on Race selections, Jerry.

It's a sticking point, yes, but the lack of race selection ties more into the length of the development cycle. The story (which only accommodates human PCs) is likely written around that, and Origins as a result become too time/resource intensive to add. Once the Origins are gone and a single background is set, the purpose of race selection disappears.

The entire point of it was to give players a chance to view the world of Thedas with a different perspective (thereby impacting the character and the choices they make). If you take out Origins, then race selections just become fluff, and while fluff is nice, it causes issues with a cinematic heavy game.

I'd say that given unlimited time and resources, BioWare would probably try and make a game that included both VO and Race selection/Origins with more impact. Of course, we'd never know for sure, but that is what I suspect.

[ashwind]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

ashwind wrote...

Does anyone seriously think that DA2 would be much better if it had a silent PC and different races to select from??

Absolutely.  That was one of the big points that Origins had received praise for.  Each time you played the game over with another race, it was like a completely different game.

  Human, Dwarf, Elves - Now imagine they all live in the same tiny boring city for the entire game, revisit same buildings and dungeons the entire game. Randomly pick up something on the ground and deliver it to some random NPC and mashing the "awesome" button mindlessly through waves of ninjas the entire game..

Agree.  Those where bad directions to take the DA franchise.

Even if each race has its unique VO - DA2 will still not do any better than it is now.

  Missing race options was a bigger deal than not outfitting your companions or reused maps.  So it would have been better, and also would have forced the direction of the game to reflect your choice of race, thus making a slightly longer game and giving you more choice.....So yeah, again, it would have been better then having a metacritic average of 4 out of 10.

  Race is the least of DA2's shortcoming and if VO must be sacrificed for something, it should not be for the sake of race.

I disagree because Origins set the standard for the rest of the series.  VO was adopted for the second game, hence dropping race options and the second game paled in comparison to its predecessor.  Since the race option was praised for Origins, you can't delete it for the rest of the series like it was an option that players didn't want. 

1 origin vs 6 origins. With 6 origins, you could get at least 6 different experience. Although I do not feel that at all in DAO because "Warden" overrides "Race" after Ostegar.

For discussion sake, let us say that DAO provided 6 vastly different and good experience with 6 different origins. If DAO had only 1 origin, we would at least get ONE good experience. And many people did only play it once with one origin but they still get one good experience.

With all the problems listed in DA2 and if those problems are not fixed. Giving us the option of playing 6 origins would result in 6 vastly different but equally horrible experiences.

Hence, race/origin to me is the least of the problems. 

Modifié par ashwind, 21 juin 2012 - 09:03 .

[AkiKishi]

ashwind wrote...
1 origin vs 6 origins. With 6 origins, you could get at least 6 different experience. Although I do not feel that at all in DAO because "Warden" overrides "Race" after Ostegar.

For discussion sake, let us say that DAO provided 6 vastly different and good experience with 6 different origins. If DAO had only 1 origin, we would at least get ONE good experience. And many people did only play it once with one origin but they still get one good experience.

With all the problems listed in DA2 and if those problems are not fixed. Giving us the option of playing 6 origins would result in 6 vastly different but equally horrible experiences.

Hence, race/origin to me is the least of the problems. 

DA2 did a lot wrong so it's hard to pin down to any sort of cause. Is it really likely that so many people never bought DA2 because of lack of races when around 80% of those only played a Human Noble anyway. Likewise games like Deus Ex/Witcher sold well and were well received even though they had fixed characters.

[Jerrybnsn]

DominusVita wrote...

To Crusty, well I think it's both the conversation and the cinematics. There's always a bit of a disconnect as the grey warden speaks literally nothing, followed by other characters reacting/talking to you. You can get away with that in cRPGs i.e. PS:T or what have you, but not quite with DA. The cinematics do make it a far larger issue, though.

I believe the disconnect is in the cinematics themselves.  I was more immersed into playin the Warden as myself than either DA2 or any of the Mass Efffect games.  This is because I had to watch the character act independently from me and, with the paraphrase system, listen to what the character will say independently from me. 

When people say that the Warden just stands their mute and says nothing, that's not how I, roleplaying my warden, percieve it.  You just process the action and what you are going to say much faster in your mind than any computer or console could ever process in cinematic fashion, and like in real life, you're not watching yourself do it as if you were up on a movie screen or on the telly.  Because,  Hawke and Shepard also just stand there starring at the npcs waiting for you to select an icon, just like the Warden waits for you to select a phrase.  The difference is that you can sit back and watch to see what will happened  and be said by the protagonist.....and here is the true disconnect from your character.

[macin]

Seriously, all this talk about 6 diferents VAs is not necessary, 2 voice actors with a toggle: low, medium & high pitch.
My two cents anyway, no idea if its even possible to do.

And all this argument about what a rpg is, is quite inane, just let bw make their game the way they want. But voiceless would be to much of a step backwards is not even funny.

[Jerrybnsn]

seraphymon wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
... so while player VO isn't a must for an RPG, it's a must for where we intend to take this RPG.

Even for your purposes of where your taking this i dont think its a must to have a VO. Especially when itsj ust a thing to make 1 simple aspect appear better, While it  will inevitably take away resources better spent elsewhere. Again all games today seem to just want to focus on cinematics aspect, instead of hte actual "GAME"

Very well said.  When cinematics cause you to have to cut out elements of game playing then they are not supporting the game anymore but taking over.  And if VO takes the element of race option away, then get rid of the VO or make another IP that doesn't need to follow the Origins formula.

[macin]

But jerry, "dialog cinematics" are part of the gameplay in this particular game, is where the story and player input happens, so I say they are quite important.
They just want to make them more natural and alive, and I can't blame them.

[Jerrybnsn]

macin wrote...

Seriously, all this talk about 6 diferents VAs is not necessary, 2 voice actors with a toggle: low, medium & high pitch.
My two cents anyway, no idea if its even possible to do.

That compromise has been tossed out there quite a few time all ready in this post.  I like it.

  And all this argument about what a rpg is, is quite inane, just let bw make their game the way they want. But voiceless would be to much of a step backwards is not even funny.

It seems the argument to what makes an true rpg always comes out when you are trying to compare Origins to DA2 and what worked and what didn't.  And from there it goes with comparing them to other games that aren't considered rpgs like shooters, action, and such.  Its a quagmire argument for sure.  In the future discussions I'm going to try to stick with the Origins vs DA2 aspects.

[Oerwinde]

The difference between DAO and DA2 to mee in terms of voice acting and race selection was:

DAO: I played as my character.
DA2: I played as Bioware's character.

Now, thats not necessarily bad, I enjoyed DA2, Mass Effect, and Witcher, etc. The difference between them is that in The Witcher, you know you're playing as Geralt from the first game then again in the 2nd. With Dragon Age, they set a precedent in the first one of creating your own character and playing through with them. When that wasn't repeated in the 2nd one, it took something away from the game. Having more cinematics didn't enhance my experience in DA2. Having my character say things fully voiced that vaguely correspond to the hints I'm given didn't enhance my experience in DA2 (that actually took away from my experience, dialogue wheel is garbage). Now, having a slightly more fleshed out back story, that did enhance my experience. Having a family that I interacted with I thought was great.

[Jozape]

macin wrote...

Seriously, all this talk about 6 diferents VAs is not necessary, 2 voice actors with a toggle: low, medium & high pitch.
My two cents anyway, no idea if its even possible to do.

I think Nicholas Boulton's voice would have worked just as well for an elf or a dwarf. Mark Meer's voice works with Shepard in ME and the PC elf in DA:O, although I'm not sure if they modified Meer's voice at all in DA:O.

[JMSLionheart]

I can only accept a Voice Actor if Dragon Age 3 has the graphics we saw in the Sacred Ashes trailer. If not, I want the silent main character back. Because Mass Effect is completely different when talking about graphics. I don't support and I don't want a VA for DA 3, I preffer extense answer choices. And please, Bioware bring back the system dialogue from Origins. The one from DA 2 (with simbols) is just mediocre...

I want this for next-gen future DA games:

[Jerrybnsn]

JMSLionheart wrote...

I can only accept a Voice Actor if Dragon Age 3 has the graphics we saw in the Sacred Ashes trailer. If not, I want the silent main character back. Because Mass Effect is completely different when talking about graphics. I don't support and I don't want a VA for DA 3, I preffer extense answer choices. And please, Bioware bring back the system dialogue from Origins. The one from DA 2 (with simbols) is just mediocre...

I want this for next-gen future DA games:
www.youtube.com/watch

That is such an awesome trailer.  Although I don't see the real time game play having such director's camera angles for emphasis, the unreal4 engine should allow the developers easy accesses to putting quick cutscenes intergrated within the game action.  Like Leliana jumping backwards off the column.

Modifié par Jerrybnsn, 21 juin 2012 - 10:52 .

[macin]

Meer did an excelent job with Jethan and I love Boulton's voice too, his narration in the ME3 trailer was great.
It shouldn't be difficult, maybe getting the approval of the VAs, I don't know.

The dialog wheel is not a problem by itself, actually, is nice to navigate and separates well between questions and plot advancement dialog, (in origins I missed several questions because I thought I could go back to the previous dialog tree, but instead I advanced the conversation), the only problem would be the poor wording of the paraphrases and the lack of more tone and intent icons, NOT the wheel iself.

[AkiKishi]

Oerwinde wrote...

The difference between DAO and DA2 to mee in terms of voice acting and race selection was:

DAO: I played as my character.
DA2: I played as Bioware's character.

Now, thats not necessarily bad, I enjoyed DA2, Mass Effect, and Witcher, etc. The difference between them is that in The Witcher, you know you're playing as Geralt from the first game then again in the 2nd. With Dragon Age, they set a precedent in the first one of creating your own character and playing through with them. When that wasn't repeated in the 2nd one, it took something away from the game. Having more cinematics didn't enhance my experience in DA2. Having my character say things fully voiced that vaguely correspond to the hints I'm given didn't enhance my experience in DA2 (that actually took away from my experience, dialogue wheel is garbage). Now, having a slightly more fleshed out back story, that did enhance my experience. Having a family that I interacted with I thought was great.

Hated that. It forced how I was supposed to react to that family never really gave me any choice in the matter.It's fine as a prologue that sets you up for the rest of the game, but when it's just there for dramatic effect and nothing you do matters It's just another example of DA2's railroading.

[Vormaerin]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

macin wrote...

Seriously, all this talk about 6 diferents VAs is not necessary, 2 voice actors with a toggle: low, medium & high pitch.
My two cents anyway, no idea if its even possible to do.

That compromise has been tossed out there quite a few time all ready in this post.  I like it.

Again, that's fine if all you want is different shapes for your character.   One voice actor with one dialogue set can answer for all the races when they have the same culture, socioeconomic status, and general background.

For example, a Dwarf merchant from Denerim, a human merchant from Denerim, and an elf servant in a denerim merchant house.    They'd all talk similarly in terms of word choice and figures of speech, have the same general accent, and so on.

When you have a Dalish who has hardly seen a human before, a dwarf from casteless ghetto who has never seen the sun before,  a elf from the alienage, and a human from a rural noble estate..... it doesn't work.   All of those /should/  sound different, use different word choices, and generally be completely different.

[macin]

But you get to select a race, many people would be delighted in just being able to do so. You can still have different origins even if all come from the same city.
As a dwarf you could be something like varric and as an elf you could be the child of dalish who came to the city.
The posibilities are there.

[Vormaerin]

macin wrote...

But you get to select a race, many people would be delighted in just being able to do so. .

Yes, I know.  Lots of people would be happy with just alternate appearances.  I'm not under any illusion that everyone shares my view that its experiencing different cultures that's important, not different shapes.

If you can't tell whether the character is an elf, a dwarf, or a human if you can't see the avatar, I don't see the point.  I know that others do.

All I *really* want is for them not to lie about it.   Don't present the character as having a different culture when they don't.   Make the elf from Denerim if its going to share the dialogue of the human characters from Denerim.   Don't pretend that's how a Dalish would speak.  It just emasculates the lore.

Modifié par Vormaerin, 21 juin 2012 - 12:51 .

[Beck 85]

Besides, DA:O gave every race the same dialogue options after Ostagar except for a couple of personal lines, and people don't seem to mind. I would be stoked for the option of races again, and see no problem with a single VA per gender.

[macin]

The thing is, even if they come from the same place, the "origin" wouldn't be the same.

The family you had would be different, the dialog choices would be different, how the world reacted to you would be different, you could see the same city in three, or more, different lights.
I'll say that's better than nothing at all.

[Vormaerin]

macin wrote...

The thing is, even if they come from the same place, the "origin" wouldn't be the same.

The family you had would be different, the dialog choices would be different, how the world reacted to you would be different, you could see the same city in three, or more, different lights.
I'll say that's better than nothing at all.

Well, that's not really what was suggested.  If the dialogues, names, reactions, etc are different then we are making separate cinematics, paying the VA to do additional work, etc.  In that case, there's really no reason not to have more voice actors unless there are additional upfront costs that make two actors not the same as twice as much of the same actor.

[Vormaerin]

Beck 85 wrote...
people don't seem to mind..

Say, rather, a lot of people don't mind. Others do.  There was a lot of complaining about the warden persona driving out the backgrounds when the game came out.

[macin]

Separate cinematics would be a must even if everything else was the same, so nothing on that front.
But the additional content in dialogues wouldn't be massive either, and most of them would be made by other NPCs, not the PC, so four VA would be vastly more expensive than just a choice of the voice pitch of two.