767 réponses à ce sujet

[robertthebard]

Beck 85 wrote...

Besides, DA:O gave every race the same dialogue options after Ostagar except for a couple of personal lines, and people don't seem to mind. I would be stoked for the option of races again, and see no problem with a single VA per gender.

It's kind of funny to read this here, considering how richly detailed all the origins are supposed to be in another thread about them.  I do, however, feel like this is an accurate assessment overall.

VO can add to a game, such as I don't have to squint to read the subtitles, which at my age, is an important detail.  However, if VO is going to cheapen the overall experience, it should be reevaluated.  I'm not overwhelmed by either position to have an opinion other than this though.

[David Gaider]

While we haven't yet discussed the inclusion of player race options, I will point out that if the assumption is that race options are primarily limited by VO that's incorrect. It plays a part, certainly, particularly with the already-established accents, but the difficulty with player races primarily relates to the amount of model variations required and to cinematics (height differences between the races).

None of these are impossible to overcome, provided we believe the expense is worth the pay-off. Obviously there are those among you who feel this is so (and since the expense is the same for you, it must seem like a no-brainer from your side of things), so we'll see.

[brushyourteeth]

David Gaider wrote...

While we haven't yet discussed the inclusion of player race options, I will point out that if the assumption is that race options are primarily limited by VO that's incorrect. It plays a part, certainly, particularly with the already-established accents, but the difficulty with player races primarily relates to the amount of model variations required and to cinematics (height differences between the races).

None of these are impossible to overcome, provided we believe the expense is worth the pay-off. Obviously there are those among you who feel this is so (and since the expense is the same for you, it must seem like a no-brainer from your side of things), so we'll see.

Wow, Mr. Gaider, I'm really excited that the idea of player race options isn't completely off the table! It's a comfort to know that you guys will consider it, because if, after heavily considering it, you guys decide not to take things in that direction it will be a much easier pill to swallow than "Absolutely not. We will never do that no matter how many of you want us to" would be.

As far as the expense being worth the pay-off, you already know that this is your story to tell. That's the pay-off. Of course we love options, options, options - we're RPG fans. But if you have a story to tell that wouldn't be served by giving us those, we have to believe that it wouldn't be worth it in the end.

But we also know that the real star of the show is Thedas, and Thedas isn't comprised of only notable humans. Having a human protagonist in DAII is one thing - being stuck with them forever is completely another. I hope you feel kind of proud that we love your elves, dwarves, and kossith so much. There's so much about them that we've yet to learn and the human culture is so self-explanatory that I'm itching to try something away from it. I think a lot of your core fans are. If we must have one set race for our protagonist I'd like to see that set race be sometimes non-human, otherwise Dragon Age isn't necessarily about Thedas, because the stories of some Thedans are being deliberately untold. Of course a fan is technically anyone who buys the game from a business standpoint, so we understand that you have to take that into account. But the world kind of begs to hear the epic tale of someone non-human, in my opinion.

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 21 juin 2012 - 05:20 .

[Salaya]

I know that there was some rage when DA:O hit the shops and all. But, of course from my subjective perspective, the amount of criticism and "hate" was much more inferior. Not in the tone, but in the amount of it. Also, the critical/public reception of DA:O was inmensely better. Those two things, to my eyes, invalidate Mr. Gaider arguments about fan-rage and such. The equivalences are minimal.

To the topic: I don't think is a must; in fact, I'd rather see Origin/Races stories. I know the devs keep saying those things aren't connected, but I sincerely felt much more appealing the Origins "trait" from the first title than the horrid Hawke character. But, of course, is a matter of tastes.

[ashwind]

David Gaider wrote...

While we haven't yet discussed the inclusion of player race options, I will point out that if the assumption is that race options are primarily limited by VO that's incorrect. It plays a part, certainly, particularly with the already-established accents, but the difficulty with player races primarily relates to the amount of model variations required and to cinematics (height differences between the races).

None of these are impossible to overcome, provided we believe the expense is worth the pay-off. Obviously there are those among you who feel this is so (and since the expense is the same for you, it must seem like a no-brainer from your side of things), so we'll see.

Not really Mr. Gaider. If race selection comes at the expense of removing environments, actual gameplay and side quests (after all nobody has unlimited resources) - I would deem it too high a price to pay.

[AkiKishi]

ashwind wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

While we haven't yet discussed the inclusion of player race options, I will point out that if the assumption is that race options are primarily limited by VO that's incorrect. It plays a part, certainly, particularly with the already-established accents, but the difficulty with player races primarily relates to the amount of model variations required and to cinematics (height differences between the races).

None of these are impossible to overcome, provided we believe the expense is worth the pay-off. Obviously there are those among you who feel this is so (and since the expense is the same for you, it must seem like a no-brainer from your side of things), so we'll see.

Not really Mr. Gaider. If race selection comes at the expense of removing environments, actual gameplay and side quests (after all nobody has unlimited resources) - I would deem it too high a price to pay.

Depends on what it is worth. If it's just a case of "OMG I can be an Elf" ! don't really care. If there is actually some point to it in the story, then that's good.

[brushyourteeth]

ashwind wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

While we haven't yet discussed the inclusion of player race options, I will point out that if the assumption is that race options are primarily limited by VO that's incorrect. It plays a part, certainly, particularly with the already-established accents, but the difficulty with player races primarily relates to the amount of model variations required and to cinematics (height differences between the races).

None of these are impossible to overcome, provided we believe the expense is worth the pay-off. Obviously there are those among you who feel this is so (and since the expense is the same for you, it must seem like a no-brainer from your side of things), so we'll see.

Not really Mr. Gaider. If race selection comes at the expense of removing environments, actual gameplay and side quests (after all nobody has unlimited resources) - I would deem it too high a price to pay.

DA:O managed all those things quite nicely with a limited number of resources. One would hope the sequel would take the best of those things and make them even better, rather than cut them out.

Fan faith in Bioware has obviously become shockingly low.

The DA team has limited resources, yes, but there's still much more they can accomplish than what many fans are giving them credit for.

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 21 juin 2012 - 05:40 .

[brushyourteeth]

double post - apologies.

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 21 juin 2012 - 05:42 .

[Blue Gloves]

BobSmith101 wrote...


Depends on what it is worth. If it's just a case of "OMG I can be an Elf" ! don't really care. If there is actually some point to it in the story, then that's good.

I agree- Origins worked for me because there were differences in the way I thought about my character and played through the entire game depending on my beginning.  There were even some (slight) differences in the way the NPC's responded to characters of varying races, and it definitely had an effect on the end game vis a vis whether the mages would become self governing, whether the dwarves would recieve a heightend level of support etc.  I think the consequences and NPC reactions would have to be even more pronounced if we were offered these options in DA3, since, you know, Orlais and all.  (You know how dramatic those bloody Orlesians are;))  If it's just a case of "Look, you can be short!  Or... POINTY EARS!!!!"  Then I'd rather not have the option at all.   If the devs chose to spend the money it would take to deliver a really satisfying "origins" experience on fully fleshed out side quests and a more expansive map, then I'd definitely be cool with that.

As to the VO thing- meh, I can go either way.  I never felt like my Shepard was limited in ME1 or 2 b/c of the VO,   but I have to admit that I did kinda feel like my Hawke had to be either an ass, a smart ass or a goody goody based on her dialogue options.  I felt like there wasn't much room for grey with her.  I get what Mr Gaider is saying though too, the cutscenes in DA2 did feel more organic and impactful to me, specifically b/c my Hawke didn't just stand there like a block of wood while momentous things were happening around her.

[Jerrybnsn]

David Gaider wrote...

........ so we'll see.

And Hope reigns eternal.

[AkiKishi]

Blue Gloves wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...


Depends on what it is worth. If it's just a case of "OMG I can be an Elf" ! don't really care. If there is actually some point to it in the story, then that's good.

I agree- Origins worked for me because there were differences in the way I thought about my character and played through the entire game depending on my beginning.  There were even some (slight) differences in the way the NPC's responded to characters of varying races, and it definitely had an effect on the end game vis a vis whether the mages would become self governing, whether the dwarves would recieve a heightend level of support etc.  I think the consequences and NPC reactions would have to be even more pronounced if we were offered these options in DA3, since, you know, Orlais and all.  (You know how dramatic those bloody Orlesians are;))  If it's just a case of "Look, you can be short!  Or... POINTY EARS!!!!"  Then I'd rather not have the option at all.   If the devs chose to spend the money it would take to deliver a really satisfying "origins" experience on fully fleshed out side quests and a more expansive map, then I'd definitely be cool with that.

As to the VO thing- meh, I can go either way.  I never felt like my Shepard was limited in ME1 or 2 b/c of the VO,   but I have to admit that I did kinda feel like my Hawke had to be either an ass, a smart ass or a goody goody based on her dialogue options.  I felt like there wasn't much room for grey with her.  I get what Mr Gaider is saying though too, the cutscenes in DA2 did feel more organic and impactful to me, specifically b/c my Hawke didn't just stand there like a block of wood while momentous things were happening around her.

Likewise. One of the things I found most interesting about the Origins is how they shaped they outlook of a particular character while still giving you freedom within the story.

[David Gaider]

brushyourteeth wrote...
As far as the expense being worth the pay-off, you already know that this is your story to tell. That's the pay-off. Of course we love options, options, options - we're RPG fans. But if you have a story to tell that wouldn't be served by giving us those, we have to believe that it wouldn't be worth it in the end.

But we also know that the real star of the show is Thedas, and Thedas isn't comprised of only notable humans. Having a human protagonist in DAII is one thing - being stuck with them forever is completely another. I hope you feel kind of proud that we love your elves, dwarves, and kossith so much.

Yes-- if we didn't end up going with additional player race options in the next installment, I doubt that should be taken as "we will never have them again". They add a great deal, even to the people who don't play them (I think the idea of alternatives has intrinsic value by virtue of their existence). I don't know if I buy the argument that they're required for an RPG, but at least in terms of the comparison to DAO I think part of the reaction from some fans is that they felt a lot of options were "taken away" without getting enough to replace what was lost. It's an emotional perspective, sure, since features don't belong to anyone and are assigned to a project on a case-by-case basis, but emotions don't need to be validated that way. They exist whether we like them or not.

I don't think being "stuck" as a human is overly limiting, so long as we get some additional options for players to tinker with (as y'all do like to tinker), but having additional races again would be awesome. No question. Who doesn't like additional options?

[The Uncanny]

David Gaider wrote...

Who doesn't like additional options?

More options are always a good thing. 

[LobselVith8]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

No.  I've been playing the beejeezus out of Skyrim without a VO and feel no loss without it.

Neither do I. It's a great game. I wish Bioware handled the dichotomy between mages and templars like Bethesda handled the Stormcloaks and the Legion - two flawed groups, no insanity, no one turning into a silly caricature. Simply two factions that have their merits.

Honestly, bad paraphrasing that disconnects me from the protagonist and auto-lines isn't going to persuade me to buy another Dragon Age game.

[Jerrybnsn]

I'm sorry...what? I got distracted by The Uncanny's avatar.

[brushyourteeth]

David Gaider wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...
As far as the expense being worth the pay-off, you already know that this is your story to tell. That's the pay-off. Of course we love options, options, options - we're RPG fans. But if you have a story to tell that wouldn't be served by giving us those, we have to believe that it wouldn't be worth it in the end.

But we also know that the real star of the show is Thedas, and Thedas isn't comprised of only notable humans. Having a human protagonist in DAII is one thing - being stuck with them forever is completely another. I hope you feel kind of proud that we love your elves, dwarves, and kossith so much.

Yes-- if we didn't end up going with additional player race options in the next installment, I doubt that should be taken as "we will never have them again". They add a great deal, even to the people who don't play them (I think the idea of alternatives has intrinsic value by virtue of their existence). I don't know if I buy the argument that they're required for an RPG, but at least in terms of the comparison to DAO I think part of the reaction from some fans is that they felt a lot of options were "taken away" without getting enough to replace what was lost. It's an emotional perspective, sure, since features don't belong to anyone and are assigned to a project on a case-by-case basis, but emotions don't need to be validated that way. They exist whether we like them or not.

I don't think being "stuck" as a human is overly limiting, so long as we get some additional options for players to tinker with (as y'all do like to tinker), but having additional races again would be awesome. No question. Who doesn't like additional options?

I'm pretty pumped to see what you guys come up with. Thanks so much for listening and responding.

[Jerrybnsn]

brushyourteeth wrote...
 Of course we love options, options, options - we're RPG fans. But if you have a story to tell that wouldn't be served by giving us those, we have to believe that it wouldn't be worth it in the end.

 I'm pretty pumped to see what you guys come up with. Thanks so much for listening and responding.

Me too.  Thanks for responding Mr. Gaider and discussing our issues.

[The Uncanny]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

I'm sorry...what? I got distracted by The Uncanny's avatar.

My work here is done. 

[Lenimph]

GodWood wrote...

I apologize for prefferring a game mechanic that enhances roleplaying opportunities in a roleplaying game.

It doesn't enhance roleplaying opportunities.  Most selectable answers lead to the same fixed response, and the fixed response voids any unique spin you might have put on the text.   

[Blue Gloves]

David Gaider wrote...


I don't think being "stuck" as a human is overly limiting, so long as we get some additional options for players to tinker with (as y'all do like to tinker), but having additional races again would be awesome. No question. Who doesn't like additional options?

Hooray for additional options!!!!  It's why we all love our RPGs, right?  My two cents: I don't mind being confined to one race or another, but maybe a less rigid portrayal of that one character, if at all possible.  I freely admit that I know exactly squat about what it takes to develop a video game, and I may be suggesting the impossible, but I would love not to have to choose whether I'm good, bad, or a smart ass.  I want to be all three- and I don't want my Hawke-who-is-forceful-with-badguys-and-fools-but-funny-and-sarcastic-with-her-friends to be a total jerkface in all her non controlled dialogue.

Also- thanks for taking the time to talk w/ us, Mr Gaider!  It appears that you bring hope this day, rather than choosing to harvest our tears for your infernal sorrow-feasts!:happy:

[Blue Gloves]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Likewise. One of the things I found most interesting about the Origins is how they shaped they outlook of a particular character while still giving you freedom within the story.

Haha- reat minds think alike Bob:P  Wanna come to the Firefly BBQ?

EDIT: Also, Great minds think alike, not just the reat ones.

Modifié par Blue Gloves, 21 juin 2012 - 06:36 .

[Jerrybnsn]

I think the payoff for race options would be significant. Just think of some of the marketing you could use to spread the word that Dragon Age is back.....I can't think of any right now, but I'll come up with few later on.

[LobselVith8]

Lenimph wrote...

There are still people butthurt about how they can't read their pc's lines to themselves in their silly roleplay voices?
How many months ago did Bioware say silent protagonists were dead to them? Can we get over this already? Besides the only game I felt a silent protagonist truely worked for without feeling awkward at all was Okami and do you know why? Because I was playing as a freaking wolf, and even she barked up a hellstorm! I'm so glad Bioware is going to stick to a VO protagonist, and I feel that if they brought back race choice no one would be complaining right now. Unless you know you're really upset about not being able to read those lines to yourself, regardless of the fact that you can present them to yourself wrong and the fixed character reactions ruin that anyway.

You seem pretty upset that people have a different opinion than you do about silent and voiced protagonists in RPGs.

[Jerrybnsn]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lenimph wrote...

There are still people butthurt about how they can't read their pc's lines to themselves in their silly roleplay voices?
.

You seem pretty upset that people have a different opinion than you do about silent and voiced protagonists in RPGs.

I think he's tryng to be more conciliatory towards us.  He just used the  icon too much on the forum in the past.