767 réponses à ce sujet

[Dakota Strider]

And the struggle between those that want a Voiced and Silent Protagonist continues.  And it could probably be further clarified as those that like cinematics for everything, and those that would prefer that cinematics are reserved only for key/special moments, so as to save money, that can be used to expand other areas of the game. 

Before Bioware started to follow the trend to make games in this manner, you could find plenty of other games that offered the options of Cinematics and Voiced Protags.   Sadly there are very few good games available that do not use these gimmicks as part of the game.    So, another way to describe this conflict, is between those that wish to keep the best qualities of Bioware's fantasy role playing games of the past, and those that wish that Bioware becomes a hybrid of just about any other game on the market.  One side wishes that the games follow the same proven methods that created top selling game after top selling game.  The other side wishes for a bastardization of that style that will make it just like every other game available.  In other words, they seek mediocrity, because that is what will happen when a thing is just like everything else:  Average, Same, Mediocre.....yawn.

I do not play games like Final Fantasy, but it seems that is the direction many want Dragon Age to go.  I am curious, are there people on the FF forums, crying for FF to become more like DAO or earlier Bioware games?   It would be great if game developers would not try to deviate so much from what makes them stand out from the competition.

[wsandista]

Is there any system that would allow for both a silent PC and a voiced PC?

I think a full-text system with an option to turn of PC VO could work wonderfully. If there is a wandering dev here, could you give us an idea on how feasible it is?

[Dakota Strider]

wsandista wrote...

Is there any system that would allow for both a silent PC and a voiced PC?

I think a full-text system with an option to turn of PC VO could work wonderfully. If there is a wandering dev here, could you give us an idea on how feasible it is?

They could allow the player to choose from a set of voices at the beginning of the game, as they did in NwN, that has about 6-12 different phrases that could be used over and over for different things, like greetings, farewells, threats, insults, etc.  Then for a few special cinematic situations, they could use that same voice to make a speech, like rallying the troops, or something like that.  The rest of the time it could be silent, and hopefully that would allow them to save enough resources for more important things.

[Vormaerin]

Dakota Strider wrote...

The other side wishes for a bastardization of that style that will make it just like every other game available.  In other words, they seek mediocrity, because that is what will happen when a thing is just like everything else:  Average, Same, Mediocre.....yawn.

I.

Nice scurrilous characterization of those who disagree with you.  Congrats.  I suppose I should return the favor you and Yyrkoon are doing us, but I can't be bothered.

I've never played FF.  I'm not all that impressed with the idea of pretty princesses and androgynes with peculiar weaponized objects.   But you can run along and pretend that's what I want if it makes you feel superior.

[LobselVith8]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

For a good one, I'd happily pay more than that.  In 2010 dollars, I paid $160 for new games in 1986.  That seems a fair price.

This even works in DA2 (though it isn't fun getting there).  My Hawke was a serial killer, murdered his own mother for his magical research, and blew up the Chantry himself (Varric pinned the blame on Anders).

So was Varric's "story" really serial killer Hawke feeding Varric misinformation, and then Varric giving that version to Cassandra because he thinks it's the truth? Was the Super-Abomination in the Gallows created by serial killer Hawke?

[wsandista]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

For a good one, I'd happily pay more than that.  In 2010 dollars, I paid $160 for new games in 1986.  That seems a fair price.

This even works in DA2 (though it isn't fun getting there).  My Hawke was a serial killer, murdered his own mother for his magical research, and blew up the Chantry himself (Varric pinned the blame on Anders).

So was Varric's "story" really serial killer Hawke feeding Varric misinformation, and then Varric giving that version to Cassandra because he thinks it's the truth? Was the Super-Abomination in the Gallows created by serial killer Hawke?

Honestly, Sylvius' summary of Hawke's actions seems better than what was portrayed in DA2. I hope when I scour the codices for information, there will be some doubt about the accuracy Varric's tale.

[Dakota Strider]

Vormaerin wrote...


Nice scurrilous characterization of those who disagree with you.  Congrats. 

I have to say, I have to give credit to you for the inspiration of making disparaging remarks.  So as they say...right back at ya.

[PinkShoes]

You know i am just so angry at DA2 at how bad it was. It was just so disappointing. The game is so average that its worse than a really bad game because at least in a bad game you can laugh at it.

I honestly think we should have a choice. I think there should be more voice option the very least a silent option! I hated the voices they annoyed me and took me out the story completely, seriously every time they spoke! I didn't like the male voice and the female voice was fine i guess.

I find it a little funny that a game all about choice we get so little. Hawke was a fixed character lets not pretend s/he wasn't. Hopefully in DA3 we will have more choice to make that character our own. I want DA3 to be good because i loved DAO so much but i have so little hope.

[Nomen Mendax]

David Gaider wrote...

Yes-- if we didn't end up going with additional player race options in the next installment, I doubt that should be taken as "we will never have them again". They add a great deal, even to the people who don't play them (I think the idea of alternatives has intrinsic value by virtue of their existence). I don't know if I buy the argument that they're required for an RPG, but at least in terms of the comparison to DAO I think part of the reaction from some fans is that they felt a lot of options were "taken away" without getting enough to replace what was lost. It's an emotional perspective, sure, since features don't belong to anyone and are assigned to a project on a case-by-case basis, but emotions don't need to be validated that way. They exist whether we like them or not.

I don't think being "stuck" as a human is overly limiting, so long as we get some additional options for players to tinker with (as y'all do like to tinker), but having additional races again would be awesome. No question. Who doesn't like additional options?

I was really pleased to see you write the part I`ve put in bold.  I had a long boring post that I never got round to writing about the danger of removing choices just because most people would never select them that would have said pretty much the same thing (in a very long-winded way).

[ashwind]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

ashwind wrote...

Does anyone seriously think that DA2 would be much better if it had a silent PC and different races to select from??

The silent PC alone (with full text dialogue options) would have maed the game vastly better.  Then we could have played our characters without having them constantly behave differently from what we would have liked.

Race is the least of DA2's shortcoming and if VO must be sacrificed for something, it should not be for the sake of race.

There's no sacrifice.  Voice doesn't add anything to the roleplaying experience.

There are generally 3 groups of players.

1. Players who prefer DAO style silent PC - text conversation.
2. Players who prefer VO
3. Players who dont really care about either.

Not a sacrifice to you does not mean that it is not a sacrifice for others. People who like VO does not see removing the silent PC as a sacrifice or a bad thing. Neither group can convince the other. Both are right.

You can never convince people who like VO that your preference is superior no matter how hard you try to present your case. People who like VO can never convince you otherwise. Neither are wrong.

I belong to the thrid group. I care more about the other aspect of the game that I think most will agree that is done badly and want Bioware to address those issues first and foremost. Nobody (or I have not met any) would defend how badly sidequest and environments are done in DA2.

Some say that fans should have more faith in Bioware that they can both address the shortcomings and improve on VO/race/origin/etc. After DA2... I thought Bioware would be aware but... look at ME3... sidequest is ad bad as DA2 and a journal that is basically non-functional. I would like to regain my faith... hopefully DA3 will address all these issues.

[indyracing]

David Gaider wrote...

There's a lot of interests to keep in mind, including our own. From my personal perspective, and with all due respect, I think making the game as good as it can possibly be is what will serve our overall fan base best.

Not that I really expect an answer, but I can't help but wonder did the DA 2 team think they made the game as good as it possibly could be for their overall fan base, both at the time, and now with hindsight? 

I wonder, because as a purchaser of every Bioware product (except for some item DLCs in ME 1 and 2 - but a purchaser of every piece of story content) since BG 1, the last few releases from Bioare lead me to believe I am no longer in the overall fan base.  While I can enjoy games like DA 2, ME 2 and ME 3 (I tried to enjoy ToR, but, well...), I don't love them like BG 1 + 2, KOTOR, JE, ME 1 or DAO.  The last releases feel like throwaway, overproduced, and not really replayable games, to me.  Probably not to everyone (I gather that at least ME 2 and 3 sold really well), but your older games were so much more...deep...than the recent ones, which are very actiony, but very simplistic (and very consolified in their PC versions, though that's been going on since even KOTOR).

I also realize that question was kind of off topic, so I'll say that the voiced protagonist was one of the few improvements over DAO I thought DA 2 contained.

[Vormaerin]

Dakota Strider wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...


Nice scurrilous characterization of those who disagree with you.  Congrats. 

I have to say, I have to give credit to you for the inspiration of making disparaging remarks.  So as they say...right back at ya.

Really?  I don't recall making any attacks on the character of other posters or accusing them of malfeasance.   If I did, that was a mistake on my part.    THough sometimes I do fall afoul of individuals who don't differentiate between "I think that idea is really dumb" and "You are really dumb."

Anyway, if you think I've used ad hominem argumentation against you, I apologize.  Not my intention.  Just trying to present my interests and to fend off the various mischaracterizations of it.

I don't want FF (which I've only seen reviews of) and I don't want TES (which I tried and didn't like).  I'm about the opposite of Sylvius.  I've been actively DMing for 30 years and write stories as well.  I don't buy video games to let me imagine stories using other peoples' ideas. 

I buy video games to experience worlds and stories.  I want to tramp through the mud and blood of Thedas.  I want to experience its cultures, shape my thoughts around the way the local cultures think.   I don't want to be making my own story up, using my own ideas, and imposing in BIoware's world.   I'd just write my own damn story if I wanted that.

So cinematics and voice acting are good things for me.  Of course if they are poorly done, they take away so much control you'd never feel you were Hawke or Geralt or Adam Jensen.  That's true of poorly done silent protagonists, too.  Its easier to rewrite the story in your head with a silent protag, but if I'm doing that, I never finish the game because I've gone off to write something of my own anyway.

I don't believe silent protagonists are more immersive, because the text provided rarely says what a character I've invented would say.   Just about every scene with Arl Eamon stomped all over what I wanted the character to do and say.   And Alistair's treason left me with dialogue so far from anything my character would have said, I had to literally stop playing for a while until I could rethink the character into something bioware was letting me play.

I probably want too much from games,but I want different cultures.  If I am playing a dalish, I want to talk different, think different.  I don't want to have the same three dialogue choices as Little Lord Fontleroy.   Games like BG and NWN2 say "you can be any shape or color you want, it doesn't matter...you have the same background and culture."   Which is fine as far as it goes.  Every PC grew up in Candlekeep or that village, so they talk similarly. 

DAO with four distinct cultural/socioeconomic options then says  "but that hardly matters, you drank the koolaid.  Now you are all the same."   I loved the origins as windows into the different cultures.   They felt like false promises as part of character creation, because the actual warden had the same culture no matter what choice.

So if I am trying to ruin your gaming life, sorry.  But tabula rasa  characters and bland open worlds absolutely won't get my money.  Maybe there are scads of other games out there doing what I want, as you claim.  But I haven't seen them.  Bioware is the only one who consistently seems to be trying.   Maybe CDProjekt if they prove able to keep making good games without Geralt.  Occasional one offs like DX:HR.  That's about it..

[Vormaerin]

indyracing wrote...

Not that I really expect an answer, but I can't help but wonder did the DA 2 team think they made the game as good as it possibly could be for their overall fan base, both at the time, and now with hindsight? 

Well, that's an impossible thing to answer.  No game is as good as it could be.  DG has mentioned in an interview he has a hard time remembering that only six of the eight DAO origins actually made the game, for instance.   And there were plans for a story element in DA2 to explain why mage Hawke wasn't arrested on sight, but it didn't work right and got left out of the game.

I think they feel they made the best game they could in the situation they were in.   There's certainly no evidence the devs 'mailed it in."  Several of them have admitted that the DA2 that was released wasn't what they had envisioned.

I don't think anyone could look at DA2 and not see that there was a disconnect between the resources available and the ambition of the game itself.   Just look at the difference between the polish on the Legacy DLC and the main game.

I do hope that DA3 is a better DA2 though. I liked what they were trying to do quite a lot.  A shame we didn't get it closer to the way they hoped.

Modifié par Vormaerin, 22 juin 2012 - 10:13 .

[Jerrybnsn]

Dakota Strider wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Is there any system that would allow for both a silent PC and a voiced PC?

I think a full-text system with an option to turn of PC VO could work wonderfully. If there is a wandering dev here, could you give us an idea on how feasible it is?

..............  Then for a few special cinematic situations, they could use that same voice to make a speech, like rallying the troops, or something like that. 

This is a good point.  There should only be one rallying speech needed for a game that would need voicing by your protagonist.  The person who does the battle cries and what not phrases for your character just needs this extended dialogue.

[Jerrybnsn]

Vormaerin wrote...

Dakota Strider wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...


Nice scurrilous characterization of those who disagree with you.  Congrats. 

I have to say, I have to give credit to you for the inspiration of making disparaging remarks.  So as they say...right back at ya.

Really?  I don't recall making any attacks on the character of other posters or accusing them of malfeasance.,,,,,,,

I don't want FF (which I've only seen reviews of) and I don't want TES (which I tried and didn't like). .....

I buy video games to experience worlds and stories.  I want to tramp through the mud and blood of Thedas.  I want to experience its cultures, shape my thoughts around the way the local cultures think.   I don't want to be making my own story up, using my own ideas, and imposing in BIoware's world.   I'd just write my own damn story if I wanted that.

So cinematics and voice acting are good things for me.  Of course if they are poorly done, they take away so much control you'd never feel you were Hawke or Geralt or Adam Jensen..............

FF use to be great in the sense of exploration.  You could open up the world and add to your map as you discover places, going in any direction you would like.  But that changed by FFX.  I had problems wanting to continue to play that game because you couldn't go anywhere you wanted but had to go through each places in order of the developers decision that that the story would progress. Further, the cut-scenes became so numerous and long that I no longer felt like I was playing.  In addition, all the characters were set with an icon look that took away a progression of customization.  That was my last FF game I played.

DA so far has not become that polarized to the FF formula, but if they do continue toward that route that series will be done for me too, and I'll start looking elsewhere.

[AkiKishi]

Dakota Strider wrote...

And the struggle between those that want a Voiced and Silent Protagonist continues.  And it could probably be further clarified as those that like cinematics for everything, and those that would prefer that cinematics are reserved only for key/special moments, so as to save money, that can be used to expand other areas of the game. 

Before Bioware started to follow the trend to make games in this manner, you could find plenty of other games that offered the options of Cinematics and Voiced Protags.   Sadly there are very few good games available that do not use these gimmicks as part of the game.    So, another way to describe this conflict, is between those that wish to keep the best qualities of Bioware's fantasy role playing games of the past, and those that wish that Bioware becomes a hybrid of just about any other game on the market.  One side wishes that the games follow the same proven methods that created top selling game after top selling game.  The other side wishes for a bastardization of that style that will make it just like every other game available.  In other words, they seek mediocrity, because that is what will happen when a thing is just like everything else:  Average, Same, Mediocre.....yawn.

I do not play games like Final Fantasy, but it seems that is the direction many want Dragon Age to go.  I am curious, are there people on the FF forums, crying for FF to become more like DAO or earlier Bioware games?   It would be great if game developers would not try to deviate so much from what makes them stand out from the competition.

Which is probably why you make such broad and misinformed statements.

Bioware wants to make a cinematic game, then I want them to make the best cinematic game possible.Which would be along the lines of Deus Ex/Witcher in structure. Both of those games are very different from Final Fantasy, and Final Fantasy itself in very diferent within the franchise. FFXIII is nothing like FFX and other JRPGs are different again.

Trying to weaken the game, which is what putting in a silent protagonist will do in a cinematic game is just nonsensical.
Once you are commited to a cinematic experience you need to follow through all the way. A cinamtic game is telling a story just like a movie. It's not a sandbox where you make your own entertainment.

Since I've seen it done in many non SquareEnix JRPGs my preference is for part voicing. You voice the big dramatic moments as cutscenes and you leave the every day conversation stuff with variable inputs unvoiced.
That eliminates the weakness of both. Although some people find it weird that you don't get a voice all the time, the benifits far outweight any negatives like that.

[AkiKishi]

Jerrybnsn wrote...
FF use to be great in the sense of exploration.  You could open up the world and add to your map as you discover places, going in any direction you would like.  But that changed by FFX.  I had problems wanting to continue to play that game because you couldn't go anywhere you wanted but had to go through each places in order of the developers decision that that the story would progress. Further, the cut-scenes became so numerous and long that I no longer felt like I was playing.  In addition, all the characters were set with an icon look that took away a progression of customization.  That was my last FF game I played.

DA so far has not become that polarized to the FF formula, but if they do continue toward that route that series will be done for me too, and I'll start looking elsewhere.

And yet FFXII was about as far removed from that as you could possibly get.





Even in FFX that was only the case until you hit the Calm Lands or later got the airship, then things opened up. I spent 100 hours or so doing things completely unrelated to the plot, exploring temples, stuff like that.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 22 juin 2012 - 10:36 .

[bEVEsthda]

[quote]Vormaerin wrote...

...I buy video games to experience worlds and stories.  I want to tramp through the mud and blood of Thedas.  I want to experience its cultures, shape my thoughts around the way the local cultures think...[/quote]

Sofar, I'm totally with you. However, after that I'm going with S. t. Mad all the way, in how games should work. And the above is exactly at least one part of the reason.

It's not so much "writing your own story", as in experiencing your character's own story. I'm really not interested in Geralt or Bioware's Hawke. Identifying with a character that way, experiencing a story that way, is much more in the realm of how one experiences a novel or watch a movie. I absolutely reject that relationship in a cRPG! I have no reasons to play cRPG for such purposes, because even FPS's provide that. I'd rather do Max Payne.

Nevertheless, I think we should embrace the thing I quoted from you. That is maybe a foundation we can build upon. Though I have to say I think, to me, it hints much more of a TES game than DA2 or TW2.

[/quote]

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 22 juin 2012 - 10:41 .

[Vormaerin]

bEVEsthda wrote...

Nevertheless, I think we should embrace the thing I quoted from you. That is maybe a foundation we can build upon. Though I have to say I think, to me, it hints much more of a TES game than DA2 or TW2.

Not unless skyrim is leaps and bounds ahead of Morrowind or Oblivion on the story and characterization side, which no one has given me any reason to believe.

Big open world games like that are more like stages for telling your own story with their props.  Frankly, I can create my own props that I like better, so I don't buy those kinds of games anymore.

As long as the DM is writing all the dialogue and defining all the eligible actions, I don't accept that its "my character" in the way you are talking about.

I do like to customize my characters' looks ala Shepard or Hawke, but I don't mind if they define the backgrounds to fit the story rather than leaving it up to the player to guess what will be supported.   Or headcanon their way over the inconsistencies.

[bEVEsthda]

Vormaerin wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...

Nevertheless, I think we should embrace the thing I quoted from you. That is maybe a foundation we can build upon. Though I have to say I think, to me, it hints much more of a TES game than DA2 or TW2.

Not unless skyrim is leaps and bounds ahead of Morrowind or Oblivion on the story and characterization side, which no one has given me any reason to believe.

It's not.

The way I see it, I don't think that side can be much evolved without developing procedural engines for more more generated content. Arguably, you could have sort of the TES sandbox world, and inject a Bioware story into it. Might even have been a good enough game.
But the well defined dialogue would then only exist in context of the Bioware story. Some people might see that as a flaw, rather than economical and technical limitation. I think  I'd like such a game though.

[Vormaerin]

bEVEsthda wrote...

The way I see it, I don't think that side can be much evolved without developing procedural engines for more more generated content. Arguably, you could have sort of the TES sandbox world, and inject a Bioware story into it. Might even have been a good enough game.
But the well defined dialogue would then only exist in context of the Bioware story. Some people might see that as a flaw, rather than economical and technical limitation. I think  I'd like such a game though.

Well, yeah.  The perfect game would be a sandbox full of Bioware stories.   But that's not practical, unfortunately.   So you get sandboxes or stories.   If only someone would make an MMO sized single player RPG... 

[Jerrybnsn]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Jerrybnsn wrote...
But that changed by FFX.  I had problems wanting to continue to play that game because you couldn't go anywhere you wanted but had to go through each places in order of the developers decision that that the story would progress. Further, the cut-scenes became so numerous and long that I no longer felt like I was playing.  In addition, all the characters were set with an icon look that took away a progression of customization.  .

And yet FFXII was about as far removed from that as you could possibly get.





Even in FFX that was only the case until you hit the Calm Lands or later got the airship, then things opened up. I spent 100 hours or so doing things completely unrelated to the plot, exploring temples, stuff like that.

Maybe if FFX started out the game that way within the first five hours of game play, I would have realised that.  Oh well, too late now.

[Jerrybnsn]

Vormaerin wrote...

Well, yeah.  The perfect game would be a sandbox full of Bioware stories.   But that's not practical, unfortunately.   So you get sandboxes or stories.   If only someone would make an MMO sized single player RPG... 

Have you tried the SWotOR MMO?  Isn't that suppose to be something like that?

[Vormaerin]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...

Well, yeah.  The perfect game would be a sandbox full of Bioware stories.   But that's not practical, unfortunately.   So you get sandboxes or stories.   If only someone would make an MMO sized single player RPG... 

Have you tried the SWotOR MMO?  Isn't that suppose to be something like that?

Might've, if it wasn't star wars.  Not really fond of that extended universe.  Tried reading a few of the books and so on. 

LoTRO has a nice main storyline that works pretty well. I've got a lifetime sub there, so I drop in and play every once in a while. I really liked the first "big story" they told.   The post Moria ones have been more hit or miss.  And, of course, the rest of the game is an MMO.   Can't walk 5 feet without a monster spawn, loot set for grind oriented drop rates, and so on.

[AkiKishi]

Jerrybnsn wrote...
Maybe if FFX started out the game that way within the first five hours of game play, I would have realised that.  Oh well, too late now.

It's a case of %'s. FFX was a long game so it had a long intro period. Xenoblade is similiar , the first 10 hours are the introduction , the game is 160-200 hours long overall.

Now FFXIII's intro was horrible, totally linear, no character progression (never came until you got branded) which meant that it was like playing a different game. FFXIII-2 largely fixed all the problems though.