767 réponses à ce sujet

[Jerrybnsn]

BobSmith101 wrote...


Now FFXIII's intro was horrible, totally linear, no character progression (never came until you got branded) which meant that it was like playing a different game. FFXIII-2 largely fixed all the problems though.

So would you recommend skipping FFXIII and just play -2?  And just to keep on topic, does FF utilize VO?

[AkiKishi]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

So would you recommend skipping FFXIII and just play -2?  And just to keep on topic, does FF utilize VO?

Well I'm a huge FF fan but hated almost everything about XIII. It does get better if you can stick it out till you get to Pulse but it's a really linear thing with nothing to really break it up until then.

FFXIII and FFXIII-2 have full VA oddly enough though FFXIII-2 also has some conversation choices, some of them quite meaningful.Bit of a departure for an FF game that.

While I would not say you would have to play XIII a lot of XIII-2 won't make sense if you dont.

[Jerrybnsn]

FFXIII still looks like a gorgeous game to watch in HD on 54" screen. I just might get it.

Modifié par Jerrybnsn, 22 juin 2012 - 04:35 .

[dunstan1993]

This is all about preference and is rather subjective because of that, but what the hell, I'll throw in my two pence for the sake of it.

Is a VP (Voiced Protagonist) a must in DA3?
No.

Will we have a VP in DA3?
Yes.

Do you have proof to back that answer up?
Nope, I just have a hunch that Bioware won't go back to SP (Silent Protagonist) let alone drop the conversation wheel. It's just a hunch, but I'm pretty convinced I'm right.

I'd prefer a VP in DA3 not gonna lie, and my opinion is obviously bias in my favour. But in the unlikely case of a SP returning in DA3, I will happily accept it as long as they compensate by throwing in Tal-Vashoth as a playable race >

[David Gaider]

dunstan1993 wrote...
Will we have a VP in DA3?
Yes.

Do you have proof to back that answer up?
Nope, I just have a hunch that Bioware won't go back to SP (Silent Protagonist) let alone drop the conversation wheel. It's just a hunch, but I'm pretty convinced I'm right.

You don't need to rely on a hunch. We've stated outright that we're sticking with a voiced protaganist as well as the conversation wheel-- at least for the forseeable future. Discussing how we can improve our use of these is one thing, but if one's of the opinion that improvement simply isn't possible and that they must be removed outright there's really no place for that discussion to go. Some people like to talk about it anyway, but removing those features is not really on the table.

Modifié par David Gaider, 22 juin 2012 - 05:31 .

[zyntifox]

David Gaider wrote...

dunstan1993 wrote...
Will we have a VP in DA3?
Yes.

Do you have proof to back that answer up?
Nope, I just have a hunch that Bioware won't go back to SP (Silent Protagonist) let alone drop the conversation wheel. It's just a hunch, but I'm pretty convinced I'm right.

You don't need to rely on a hunch. We've stated outright that we're sticking with a voiced protaganist as well as the conversation wheel-- at least for the forseeable future. Discussing how we can improve our use of these is one thing, but if one's of the opinion that improvement simply isn't possible and that they must be removed outright there's really no place for that discussion to go. Some people like to talk about it anyway, but removing those features is not really on the table.

How about a option to mute the PC and just see the subtitles instead? I couldn't play my original character in DA2, which was a male mage, because the voice didn't fit the custom character i had created. If i could just get a little box that mutes the character in the option menu it would fix that.

[Apollo Starflare]

Cstaf wrote...

How about a option to mute the PC and just see the subtitles instead? I couldn't play my original character in DA2, which was a male mage, because the voice didn't fit the custom character i had created. If i could just get a little box that mutes the character in the option menu it would fix that.

Lol, where is the quote about toggles and kittens.

Things that may seem simple, may in fact prove to be more complicated to implement than you first thought!

[dunstan1993]

David Gaider wrote...

dunstan1993 wrote...
Will we have a VP in DA3?
Yes.

Do you have proof to back that answer up?
Nope, I just have a hunch that Bioware won't go back to SP (Silent Protagonist) let alone drop the conversation wheel. It's just a hunch, but I'm pretty convinced I'm right.

You don't need to rely on a hunch. We've stated outright that we're sticking with a voiced protaganist as well as the conversation wheel-- at least for the forseeable future. Discussing how we can improve our use of these is one thing, but if one's of the opinion that improvement simply isn't possible and that they must be removed outright there's really no place for that discussion to go. Some people like to talk about it anyway, but removing those features is not really on the table.

Good to know, thanks David. 

[zyntifox]

Apollo Starflare wrote...

Cstaf wrote...

How about a option to mute the PC and just see the subtitles instead? I couldn't play my original character in DA2, which was a male mage, because the voice didn't fit the custom character i had created. If i could just get a little box that mutes the character in the option menu it would fix that.

Lol, where is the quote about toggles and kittens.

Things that may seem simple, may in fact prove to be more complicated to implement than you first thought!

It probably is. But having a character with a voice that does not fit can make or break a game, for me atleast. And it's one of the reasons i havn't finished DA2 yet (there are others though not relevant to topic). Im probably in the minority wanting something like this, which may be due to me having AS, but if the implementation of a function such as this is easy i really would appreciate it.

[wsandista]

Would it be possible to first select the intent of the line(like "persuade", "joke", or "refuse'), then select the tone of the line?

[Cirram55]

@wsandista


I'd love that, but it's probably too complex for Bioware to implement such a system.

In fact, would the intent influence the tone?
If yes, then it might be really expensive to have the PC say every line in every single variation of tone/intent.
If no, it sounds interesting, more dialogue variety is always good.

Modifié par Cirram55, 22 juin 2012 - 07:33 .

[ScotGaymer]

I am not against a Voice Acted Protagonist.

What I am against is Bioware EVER using the FemHawke VA as a protag voice over ever again. EVER.

ManHawke sounds gritty, and genuine, and emotes brilliantly. FemHawke just sounds horrific. Seriously check youtube:www.youtube.com/watch.
Compare ManHawke and FemHawke - FemHawke just sounds bored at best. The VA simply can not emote properly. Only the "funny/clever" choices/slant with her sounds half way decent; and even then its not great especially compared to ManHawke's VA's performance.

I understand how BW works is that the protag VAs record first for the most part, and then the other VAs record from their performances; so I am willing to believe that might be why she had trouble emoting correctly so she might make an acceptable NPC VA.
Just don't use her as a protag again.

I always refer to Shepard as he/she because both FemShep and ManShep are awesome, and both Jen Hale & Mark Meer did a great job wi Shep; but with Hawke I always say He because of how poor FemHawke's VA's performance was throughout the game.
Seriously I played her once and got to about 1/3 of the way thru Act 1 and I bailed because I just couldn't subject myself to the perpetually bored tone she had.

[dunstan1993]

FitScotGaymer wrote...

I am not against a Voice Acted Protagonist.

What I am against is Bioware EVER using the FemHawke VA as a protag voice over ever again. EVER.

ManHawke sounds gritty, and genuine, and emotes brilliantly. FemHawke just sounds horrific. Seriously check youtube:www.youtube.com/watch.
Compare ManHawke and FemHawke - FemHawke just sounds bored at best. The VA simply can not emote properly. Only the "funny/clever" choices/slant with her sounds half way decent; and even then its not great especially compared to ManHawke's VA's performance.

I understand how BW works is that the protag VAs record first for the most part, and then the other VAs record from their performances; so I am willing to believe that might be why she had trouble emoting correctly so she might make an acceptable NPC VA.
Just don't use her as a protag again.

I always refer to Shepard as he/she because both FemShep and ManShep are awesome, and both Jen Hale & Mark Meer did a great job wi Shep; but with Hawke I always say He because of how poor FemHawke's VA's performance was throughout the game.
Seriously I played her once and got to about 1/3 of the way thru Act 1 and I bailed because I just couldn't subject myself to the perpetually bored tone she had.

You went way off topic there.
Also all that I have made bold is entirely subjective and others could argue the exact opposite. Opinion does not equal fact, I'm not trying to be condescending and I'm aware you already know this, just stating my thoughts when I read that.

[Cirram55]

FitScotGaymer wrote...

What I am against is Bioware EVER using the FemHawke VA as a protag voice over ever again. EVER.

Compare ManHawke and FemHawke - FemHawke just sounds bored at best. The VA simply can not emote properly.

I had the same problem with Joanna's (femHawke) british accent. Sometimes it seemed like she was whining and sobbing, like with the "Go down!" line she keeps repeating during battle: she sounds like she's about to cry because she didn't get her favourite puppy to play with.

Most of the times, she's good though. I wouldn't call it poor voice acting, it's just the accent.

Modifié par Cirram55, 22 juin 2012 - 08:02 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

LobselVith8 wrote...

So was Varric's "story" really serial killer Hawke feeding Varric misinformation, and then Varric giving that version to Cassandra because he thinks it's the truth? Was the Super-Abomination in the Gallows created by serial killer Hawke?

I don't know why Varric does the things he does.  I can't read his mind.

However, Hawke was making a political statement by blowing up the Chantry, so he'd be very angry that he didn't get credit for it.

Hawke suspects the super-abomination was the result of Templar machinations so they could then justify invoking the Rite of Annulment, but he has no proof.

[Sylvius the Mad]

ashwind wrote...

There are generally 3 groups of players.

1. Players who prefer DAO style silent PC - text conversation.
2. Players who prefer VO
3. Players who dont really care about either.

Not a sacrifice to you does not mean that it is not a sacrifice for others. People who like VO does not see removing the silent PC as a sacrifice or a bad thing. Neither group can convince the other. Both are right.

You can never convince people who like VO that your preference is superior no matter how hard you try to present your case. People who like VO can never convince you otherwise. Neither are wrong.

I think many of the pro VO people don't really understand their own position.  They haven't examined how they play and why, and whether these games are the best place to do that.

[Elrith Galadon]

 I sort of liked the wheelie in the sense that I knew what I was getting into (I had way too many playthroughs in which Zevran thought I was coming into him when I wasn't), but it also ditracted in the sense that every single Hawke sounded exactly the same. You sort of have expectations about voices just by looking at the face (IE: imagine Fenris in a piping high-pitched voice. Or Merrill in a super-low, brassy alto. Doesn't work), and since faces are customisable, you do develop expectations. Alas, they all sounded the same.

A lot of times the wheelie was criticised in the wiki forums because the options we were presented with and the actual words sounded vastly different. Sarcastic hawke, in particular was a shocker. A lot of times "humourous" came off as just plain mean and nasty. 

So, the wheelie can be improved - more descriptions would be nice. I've seen a few people sell Fenris by accident, interpreting "take him" as "take Danarius, Fenris" as opposed to "Take Fenris, Danarius". As for the voice, would it be impossible to implement a voice changer? The program itself isn't that complicated - I've seen quite a few - and I think someone told me Sims already has it implemented. 

Geralt's fixed voice worked because Geralt didn't have customisable faces. The games I've played that had customisable faces also had voice sets, and those that didn't have voice options already had set faces. I think the middle ground would need more work. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

David Gaider wrote...


You don't need to rely on a hunch. We've stated outright that we're sticking with a voiced protaganist as well as the conversation wheel-- at least for the forseeable future. Discussing how we can improve our use of these is one thing, but if one's of the opinion that improvement simply isn't possible and that they must be removed outright there's really no place for that discussion to go.

To that end, I'd like to ask that you give us as much detail as you have about what it is the PC is going to say and do based on our wheel selection.  For every dialogue wheel event, the player should know exactly what the PC's words and actions will be, or as close to exactly as you can manage given UI constraints.

And I would like you to consider those UI constraints when writing the wheel events, so that not too much detail is lost.

I'd also like you to talk to the UI guys about reducing those constraints.

Furthermore, while I want the game to tell me everything it can about what my PC is going to do, under no circumstances should the game (or you) decide why my character is doing that thing.  The PC's motives are a mystery under all possible circumstances.  Don't rely upon your knowledge of the PC's motives to inform how you write paraphrases, because you don't have any knowledge of the PC's motives.

Some people like to talk about it anyway, but removing those features is not really on the table.

Yet.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Elrith Galadon wrote...

 I sort of liked the wheelie in the sense that I knew what I was getting into (I had way too many playthroughs in which Zevran thought I was coming into him when I wasn't), but it also ditracted in the sense that every single Hawke sounded exactly the same. You sort of have expectations about voices just by looking at the face (IE: imagine Fenris in a piping high-pitched voice. Or Merrill in a super-low, brassy alto. Doesn't work), and since faces are customisable, you do develop expectations. Alas, they all sounded the same.

A lot of times the wheelie was criticised in the wiki forums because the options we were presented with and the actual words sounded vastly different. Sarcastic hawke, in particular was a shocker. A lot of times "humourous" came off as just plain mean and nasty. 

So, the wheelie can be improved - more descriptions would be nice. I've seen a few people sell Fenris by accident, interpreting "take him" as "take Danarius, Fenris" as opposed to "Take Fenris, Danarius". As for the voice, would it be impossible to implement a voice changer? The program itself isn't that complicated - I've seen quite a few - and I think someone told me Sims already has it implemented. 

Geralt's fixed voice worked because Geralt didn't have customisable faces. The games I've played that had customisable faces also had voice sets, and those that didn't have voice options already had set faces. I think the middle ground would need more work.

The first Shepard I ever designed I intended to be over-the-top comedically gay.  And then he'd be ruthless and vicious, but still really gay.  I thought it would be a fun juxtaposition.

And then Mark Meer's voice ruined it.

My biggest complaint about the voice is that it badly harms replayability.  If I play a vastly different character, I don't want him to sound the same.

If they would encode the audio files so that we could mute just the PC (without muting the NPCs), or so we could swap in new audio files for different PCs, that would be a huge step forward.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 22 juin 2012 - 08:36 .

[Vormaerin]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I think many of the pro VO people don't really understand their own position.  They haven't examined how they play and why, and whether these games are the best place to do that.

Although we almost completely disagree on most topics, I generally respect your position and the way you present it.  But this sentence is pure BS.  

"Oh, the only reason they don't agree with me is they haven't throught it through" is condescending tripe, as is the implication that they should go play some other game. Particularly since David Gaider has reaffirmed that voice acted cinematic games are exactly what Bioware is making.

[AkiKishi]

Elrith Galadon wrote...

 I sort of liked the wheelie in the sense that I knew what I was getting into (I had way too many playthroughs in which Zevran thought I was coming into him when I wasn't), but it also ditracted in the sense that every single Hawke sounded exactly the same. You sort of have expectations about voices just by looking at the face (IE: imagine Fenris in a piping high-pitched voice. Or Merrill in a super-low, brassy alto. Doesn't work), and since faces are customisable, you do develop expectations. Alas, they all sounded the same.

A lot of times the wheelie was criticised in the wiki forums because the options we were presented with and the actual words sounded vastly different. Sarcastic hawke, in particular was a shocker. A lot of times "humourous" came off as just plain mean and nasty. 

So, the wheelie can be improved - more descriptions would be nice. I've seen a few people sell Fenris by accident, interpreting "take him" as "take Danarius, Fenris" as opposed to "Take Fenris, Danarius". As for the voice, would it be impossible to implement a voice changer? The program itself isn't that complicated - I've seen quite a few - and I think someone told me Sims already has it implemented. 

Geralt's fixed voice worked because Geralt didn't have customisable faces. The games I've played that had customisable faces also had voice sets, and those that didn't have voice options already had set faces. I think the middle ground would need more work. 

Paraphrasing is like that. The phrases are written for a specific character, not the one you think you have created.
This is why it works for games like the Witcher where everything is appropriate for Geralt because no one is under the illusion they created the guy.
While you can choose what Hawke looks like you don't create him, this is where paraphrasing causes problems. The player has this idea of how things should be for the character they think they created. Then the true version smashes that illusion like a very large sledge hammer.

If Bioware want to make you a someone, then they are better served making actual characters like CDPR so you can enjoy them for what they offer rather than trying to rationalise your imagined character with the real character as written.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 22 juin 2012 - 10:27 .

[David Gaider]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
To that end, I'd like to ask that you give us as much detail as you have about what it is the PC is going to say and do based on our wheel selection.

Based on the amount of "control" you've repeatedly espoused absolutely needing in order to have your particular playstyle catered to, I would say no-- that is simply not going to happen.

We have a voiced PC. We must write for a voiced PC. If we had a silent PC we would write for a silent PC. They are not written the same way, and this goes beyond the paraphrases. Simply displaying the voiced PC's next line and/or turning off the voiced PC's dialogue does not turn it into a silent PC. We're not going to offer an option for someone to do what they think will turn it into a silent PC which will in fact improve nothing for them and most probably would make things worse.

I realize you prefer the silent PC, and you can keep preferring that if you wish. I sympathize with you not getting the same thing out of a voiced PC with paraphrases, and there are clearly others with the same preference, but this is what we are doing. There are things we can do to make the paraphrase system better, but any efforts we expend will be to make it better... not to subvert it.

And that's as clear as I can be at this point.

Modifié par David Gaider, 22 juin 2012 - 10:27 .

[Allan Schumacher]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I think many of the pro VO people don't really understand their own position.  They haven't examined how they play and why, and whether these games are the best place to do that.

I think that this is a bit of a pretentious statement.

You've effectively dismissed the position that some fans like VO for their characters in RPGs as them "not really understanding what they want out of gaming."

No need for that.  RPGs have always had a diverse player base and I think it's what makes the community so interesting.

[PsychoBlonde]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I think many of the pro VO people don't really understand their own position.  They haven't examined how they play and why, and whether these games are the best place to do that.

I think that this is a bit of a pretentious statement.

You've effectively dismissed the position that some fans like VO for their characters in RPGs as them "not really understanding what they want out of gaming."

No need for that.  RPGs have always had a diverse player base and I think it's what makes the community so interesting.

A BIT pretentious?  Ignoring the claim about whether or not people think about their own playstyle, Sylvius is probably the number one person who complains about games not being suitable to how HE wants to play them.  The logical conclusion of that statement is that Sylvius should stop playing RPG's.

I can take or leave the VO.  I understand people who prefer it, as well as people who don't.  There are valid arguments both ways.

[AkiKishi]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I think many of the pro VO people don't really understand their own position.  They haven't examined how they play and why, and whether these games are the best place to do that.

I think that this is a bit of a pretentious statement.

You've effectively dismissed the position that some fans like VO for their characters in RPGs as them "not really understanding what they want out of gaming."

No need for that.  RPGs have always had a diverse player base and I think it's what makes the community so interesting.

A BIT pretentious?  Ignoring the claim about whether or not people think about their own playstyle, Sylvius is probably the number one person who complains about games not being suitable to how HE wants to play them.  The logical conclusion of that statement is that Sylvius should stop playing RPG's.

I can take or leave the VO.  I understand people who prefer it, as well as people who don't.  There are valid arguments both ways.

Once you decide on cinematic design and voiced character you need to push those things to the limit. It's pointless having those things if you are then going to mitigate their effects. This was a big problem with DA2 it was a bit of Hawkes Mom of a game that could never make up it's mind what it wanted to be and never pushed in any particular direction.