767 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylvius the Mad]

BobSmith101 wrote...

I played DA:O in first person because I could. The lines I saw more as suggestions rather than the words the character actually spoke, because there was nothing to tell me otherwise. I created the characters and the only thing that DA:O really imposed was being a Warden, which each character came to terms with in their own way.

DAO did this extremely well.  This is exactly what I want from a CRPG.

Trying to do that in DA2 would be futile.

Exactly.

Thisis why I argue that BioWare's efforts to improve the voice+paraphrase system should be geared toward bringing back the DAO playstyle you described.  So far, the voice+paraphrase has done nothing but destroy that playstyle.  I'd like to see that trend reversed.

The playstyle pemitted by DA2 holds no interest for me at all.  DA2's only saving grace was the unreliable narrator that allowed me to discard literally any aspect of the narrative and replace it with my own.  Unfortunately, that still didn't make the game any more fun to play moment-to-moment, just a more satisfying roleplaying environment overall.

Although I did try it at first It was clear very early on that Bioware had their own idea of Hawke and I was wasting my time.

It never occurred to me that BioWare had their own idea how Hawke.  Why would they?  I just thought the paraphrases were badly written.

I'm still not convinced they were trying to give us a pre-generated PC.  They're pre-release comments seemed to suggest they were not: "You don't have to love your family," they said.  Ultimately, Hawke was forced to care for at least some of his family, so their pre-release statement wasn't true, but they consistently presented the game as one where the player would have control over the PC's personality.

So I refused to play the game as if I didn't.

I never even attempted to "create" Geralt or project anything on to him since the game was very clear about his nature. Rather I approached it like an acting/directing role and enjoyed the character.

I wish I'd played more of The Witcher, for this reason.  I did construct a complete personality for Geralt, and in the brief period I played the game I found the game did not break my design.  Of course, The Witcher had full-text dialogue options.  This is the main reason I think the paraphrase is a bigger problem than the voice itself.

The majority of games are cinematic. If a game is not then it needs to be stellar (like Skyrim). Skyrim does not use cinematic presentation so it's not really missed. Since Bioware are pretty clear on the whole cinematic thing. I don't see a solution that goes back to how I was playing in DA:O.

Neither do I, but that doesn't mean I should stop asking for one.  BioWare is presumably better at game design than I am.

[Sylvius the Mad]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Technology has a lot to do with it , which is why examples like KOTOR and BG don't really offer anything because they are from a different era.

I fail to see the relavance of the game's era.

A feature is a feature, regardless of era.  What controlling the character means doesn't change from 1997 to 2012.

Just because they can render faces better doesn't mean they need to give us close-ups of those faces.  I continue to insist that no graphical advancement past NWN has improved any BioWare game in any respect.  NWN gave us 3D environments and a rotatable camera - that was a significant improvement over the Infinity Engine - but nothing since that has made the games any better at all.

That is not to say that improved graphics can't improve games.  The exploration in FO3 benefits tremendously from its detailed graphics.  But nothing BioWare has done has made the investment in graphics post-NWN at all worthwhile.

[Dakota Strider]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Technology has a lot to do with it , which is why examples like KOTOR and BG don't really offer anything because they are from a different era.

I fail to see the relavance of the game's era.

A feature is a feature, regardless of era.  What controlling the character means doesn't change from 1997 to 2012.

Just because they can render faces better doesn't mean they need to give us close-ups of those faces.  I continue to insist that no graphical advancement past NWN has improved any BioWare game in any respect.  NWN gave us 3D environments and a rotatable camera - that was a significant improvement over the Infinity Engine - but nothing since that has made the games any better at all.

That is not to say that improved graphics can't improve games.  The exploration in FO3 benefits tremendously from its detailed graphics.  But nothing BioWare has done has made the investment in graphics post-NWN at all worthwhile.

Agree with it all, but especially the bolded part.  Just because you can make something prettier, does not make it a better game. 

[Vormaerin]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

  But nothing BioWare has done has made the investment in graphics post-NWN at all worthwhile.

Other than that they'd probably lose a ton of sales if they hadn't done it.  RPG is already a small market compared to shooters or sports games.   Leave the game with 10 yr old graphics and you won't be able to generate enough sales for a AAA game.

Though I suppose they could fire a lot of staff and go for the "high end indie" type game.  They make money still, relative to their budget.

[DeathScepter]

well they don't need a Voice actor to make their playable Lead to be a good character. Kotor 1/2, Jade Empire, DAO are good examples of a Good PC and good dialogue

[Sylvius the Mad]

Vormaerin wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

But nothing BioWare has done has made the investment in graphics post-NWN at all worthwhile.

Other than that they'd probably lose a ton of sales if they hadn't done it.

Enough to offset the dramatically reduced production costs?  I don't see it.

Remember, production costs for the same features will have gone down, and gone down quite a lot.

Though I suppose they could fire a lot of staff and go for the "high end indie" type game.  They make money still, relative to their budget.

One of my favourite games of all time, Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri, was made by a company that had a total staff of 17 people.

[hussey 92]

I've said it once and I'll say it again, voice acting is not worth the lose of race selection.

[AkiKishi]

Dakota Strider wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Technology has a lot to do with it , which is why examples like KOTOR and BG don't really offer anything because they are from a different era.

I fail to see the relavance of the game's era.

A feature is a feature, regardless of era.  What controlling the character means doesn't change from 1997 to 2012.

Just because they can render faces better doesn't mean they need to give us close-ups of those faces.  I continue to insist that no graphical advancement past NWN has improved any BioWare game in any respect.  NWN gave us 3D environments and a rotatable camera - that was a significant improvement over the Infinity Engine - but nothing since that has made the games any better at all.

That is not to say that improved graphics can't improve games.  The exploration in FO3 benefits tremendously from its detailed graphics.  But nothing BioWare has done has made the investment in graphics post-NWN at all worthwhile.

Agree with it all, but especially the bolded part.  Just because you can make something prettier, does not make it a better game. 

There is certainly some validity to that. But it's a competative market. Unless you choose not to compete in that market, then those things will be a factor.

[bEVEsthda]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Dakota Strider wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Technology has a lot to do with it , which is why examples like KOTOR and BG don't really offer anything because they are from a different era.

I fail to see the relavance of the game's era.

A feature is a feature, regardless of era.  What controlling the character means doesn't change from 1997 to 2012.

Just because they can render faces better doesn't mean they need to give us close-ups of those faces.  I continue to insist that no graphical advancement past NWN has improved any BioWare game in any respect.  NWN gave us 3D environments and a rotatable camera - that was a significant improvement over the Infinity Engine - but nothing since that has made the games any better at all.

That is not to say that improved graphics can't improve games.  The exploration in FO3 benefits tremendously from its detailed graphics.  But nothing BioWare has done has made the investment in graphics post-NWN at all worthwhile.

Agree with it all, but especially the bolded part.  Just because you can make something prettier, does not make it a better game. 

There is certainly some validity to that. But it's a competative market. Unless you choose not to compete in that market, then those things will be a factor.

Agreed. There has to be some attention to graphic definition. Sometimes I'm tempted to suggest not, as I figure that market segment can just as well be good riddance to lose.

But that's not how it works. (It would for one thing reduce Bioware's games to a level I wouldn't play anyway, because I've never heard of them, or bioware for that matter.)

And the art and beauty is important, in that they set the foundation for much of the experience. It's certainly true even for the beautiful pixel art in BG.

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 24 juin 2012 - 10:44 .

[bEVEsthda]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Jerrybnsn wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Thats a real time demo not CG. That's going to be the next generation and that moves things further into movie land and further away from being blank. And if Bioware want to do cinematic games that is where Bioware are heading.

It's a tech demo not a game so why would you be expecting gameplay?

I'm a little suspicious that will be what real time gamr play will look like.  Will the unreal4 engine actually provide the different dramatic camera angels as well?  I suspect that that is what a cutscene is like.  However, it is a great improvement for graphics. 

It's wise to be cautious. Although it's not really much more than the same jump from PS2 to PS3 so it's not unbelievable like a certain E3 demo was.. Although I'd be very happy if I turned out to be wrong on that.

You are correct. Examining it closer, it is a realtime rendition. And it's also not so unbelievable at all.

And free-roaming 3D-gameplay will not look like it .  So it's wise to be suspicious as well. It's still a movie. Just not pre-rendered. But each shot is 3d modeled , and lighted individually. Probably customized at the limit.

Now, 3d-engines do something like that, switch to lower vertex-count models for more distant objects, but if they want to really impress, or show off in-game gameplay, they have to show long camera shots. Like all in one single take.


P.S. I'd also say a very large part of the visual impact is due to the animation. Again, this is a movie, a ready 3d-animation, just not pre-rendered. In-game, generated animations will change the overall visual impression.

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 24 juin 2012 - 10:42 .

[Kulyok]

If a voiced protagonist/conversation wheel pair is inevitable, I'd vote for "dialogue options on the left side of the wheel never move the conversation forward" OR "introduce a clearly defined icon that moves the conversation forward(alternative: a multitude of icons that indicate the opposite,i.e. the line is just a question/interrogation option)". As a completionist player, I'm for "choosing all dialogue options possible, asking all the questions possible before moving forward with the plot", and at least in Mass Effect universe, it was quite frustrating when I clicked on the option on the left side of the wheel(question/investigation), and suddenly found myself at the end of the conversation. I think had a few similar situations in Dragon Age 2, too.

Also, let's face it: many players are "companions completionists", i.e. we want 100% friendship/rivalry with everyone, no matter what. And for that, we're willing to leave Fenris home when we do pro-mage quests, take Isabella(even if I'm not a fan of her character) with us for a lousy +5 friendship points, and so on and so forth. Coupled with the fact that "purple" aka humorous/charming Hawke personality never gets extra blue/red points for purple options during quests, except with Varric(and diplomatic/agressive personalities do, and far more often), it forces me to choose quite a few replies I'm uncomfortable with - for a +5 friendship with Aveline, more points with Sebastian, and so on. 

I'm for a more liberal policy here: gifts and a completed companion quest should be enough(or even more than enough) for full friendship/rivalry points with the companion in question. Less "friendship point prostitutes" and everyone's happy.

Also, speaking of rivalry, to me it seems as if rivalry still doesn't hold a candle to friendship. (A brilliant example of this is Fenris's last quest, "Alone". If Hawke is Fenris's friend or lover when Fenris says he doesn't have friends, it's great. If Hawke is Fenris's rival, I feel horrible in this moment at Hawke's reply. I don't feel we've got a meaningful relationship at all). In too many cases, rivalry just equals Hawke being rude, and I am not comfortable with that. I'd be so much happier for deeper rivalries, like Drizzt/Entreri one, or L/Yagami Light one.

Also, and it's an important also, less "assuming what the voiced protagonist feels" moments. My Hawke is not teary or hysterical, so if she is forced to sound thus, I'm annoyed. Same with forced flirty lines(there were a few times in Mass Effect universe, like when Shepard tried to talk to Jacob). However, if there's a teary/hysterical dialogue option, or a flirty dialogue option, cool, but only if the player chooses it, and only if it has a specific icon.

Modifié par Kulyok, 24 juin 2012 - 12:36 .

[jillabender]

Kulyok wrote…

Also, let's face it: many players are "companions completionists", i.e. we want 100% friendship/rivalry with everyone, no matter what. And for that, we're willing to leave Fenris home when we do pro-mage quests, take Isabella(even if I'm not a fan of her character) with us for a lousy +5 friendship points, and so on and so forth. Coupled with the fact that "purple" aka humorous/charming Hawke personality never gets extra blue/red points for purple options during quests, except with Varric(and diplomatic/agressive personalities do, and far more often), it forces me to choose quite a few replies I'm uncomfortable with - for a +5 friendship with Aveline, more points with Sebastian, and so on.

I'm for a more liberal policy here: gifts and a completed companion quest should be enough(or even more than enough) for full friendship/rivalry points with the companion in question. Less "friendship point prostitutes" and everyone's happy.

I may be alone in this, but personally, I'd like to see the approval system go. I'd like to see relationships and friendships with NPCs evolve depending on choices in conversations, but in an organic way that's tailored to each NPC and their particular companion quests. Real relationships are too complex to fit onto a neat continuum of friendship and/or rivalry, and trying to do so with NPCs makes some interactions feel a bit forced and contrived – to me, anyway.

Modifié par jillabender, 25 juin 2012 - 02:03 .

[Realmzmaster]

Graphic detail in a crpg matters to many people. Eye candy matters. It may not matter to hardcore crpg grognards. If the competition is using photo realistic detail in their games many would (and have been) be asking Bioware why it is not possible in their games. The comparison in graphics between the Witcher 2, Skyrim and DA2 comes up on the forum. So many gamers do take into consideration the advancement in graphic detail whether it adds to the game or not. Many gamers want their games to look good and play well.

[wsandista]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Graphic detail in a crpg matters to many people. Eye candy matters. It may not matter to hardcore crpg grognards. If the competition is using photo realistic detail in their games many would (and have been) be asking Bioware why it is not possible in their games. The comparison in graphics between the Witcher 2, Skyrim and DA2 comes up on the forum. So many gamers do take into consideration the advancement in graphic detail whether it adds to the game or not. Many gamers want their games to look good and play well.

Absolutely. However, game mechanics matter more to some people. I think that many arguing against a heavy focus on improved graphics believe that too little time will be spent on gameplay.

[Realmzmaster]

wsandista wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

Graphic detail in a crpg matters to many people. Eye candy matters. It may not matter to hardcore crpg grognards. If the competition is using photo realistic detail in their games many would (and have been) be asking Bioware why it is not possible in their games. The comparison in graphics between the Witcher 2, Skyrim and DA2 comes up on the forum. So many gamers do take into consideration the advancement in graphic detail whether it adds to the game or not. Many gamers want their games to look good and play well.

Absolutely. However, game mechanics matter more to some people. I think that many arguing against a heavy focus on improved graphics believe that too little time will be spent on gameplay.

I agree with you, but the first thing gamers will see is the graphics. If the graphics do not catch the eye they may never get to the game play.  NetHack is a very detailed game, but most gamers cannot get pass the ASCII graphics. This is why  graphical overlays like Vulture's Eye were developed. 

How many gamers on this forum would go back to the line drawings of Wizardry 1, or the text of SwordThrust or Eamon?
There are some who still engage in IF, but I cannot think of any successful commercial game that has been released in that genre in recent years.

[dheer]

David Gaider wrote...

If this paraphrase system is so important, could you at least add a popop when we hover over or highlight a paraphrase that shows the dialogue so that we can also read the actual dialogue.

No, we looked at that. Extensively, actually, as it was an idea brought up on the forums and it bore investigation. Considering the way we write for the voiced PC, showing you the following line doesn't always give you the information you think it would. Often it does, sure, but with paraphrases we're talking about frequency of disconnect... and the frequency is no less when we show the following lines unless we change how we write the voiced PC to make it the same as the silent PC (and thus lose the advantages of such). There is no improvement.

Oh no.

I was taken aback so many times from the combo of personality system and paraphrases that I gave up on the game a few times before struggling to the end of DA2. It took me out of character quite often.

In the future project, if you include a similar personality system, could we have it not have an influence over paraphrases? Pretty please? If not, how about change the paraphrase wording on the wheel to reflect what the current high score personality would generally say?

Modifié par dheer, 24 juin 2012 - 10:00 .

[Jerrybnsn]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Graphic detail in a crpg matters to many people. Eye candy matters. .

"Eye Candy" !  That's the real heart of the argument about Bethany being your sister in the game.  Isabella was too much and Merril was barnyard attractive, while Aveline had a jaw that looked like you could break bricks on.  (Which is not meant for this post so I will copy and paste it to the "Hot sisters? Yes or No" post.)

Modifié par Jerrybnsn, 24 juin 2012 - 10:28 .

[Fallstar]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Graphic detail in a crpg matters to many people. Eye candy matters. It may not matter to hardcore crpg grognards. If the competition is using photo realistic detail in their games many would (and have been) be asking Bioware why it is not possible in their games. The comparison in graphics between the Witcher 2, Skyrim and DA2 comes up on the forum. So many gamers do take into consideration the advancement in graphic detail whether it adds to the game or not. Many gamers want their games to look good and play well.

I agree, all other things being equal, a game that looks nice wins out against one with mediocre graphics. And Bethesda, as usual, have been providing us with games that have stunning graphics. But then since exploration is such a major part in their games, they can justify the graphics being stellar. 

Generally Bioware games do player-NPC interactions better however. You can see why they want to take advantage of improved graphics to let you get up close in their cinematic scenes and try to push the boat out in that regard, but they can't forget that if doing so hinders our ability to interact in the scene, then even if the camera angles are fantastic, the faces are beautifully rendered and there's lots of action taking place, it doesn't really matter. I'm not watching a film, or reading a book, video games are an interactive medium, and if hindering player interactivity is collateral damage in the new cinematic experience, it kind of defeats the point.

[Jozape]

David Gaider wrote...

If this paraphrase system is so important, could you at least add a popop when we hover over or highlight a paraphrase that shows the dialogue so that we can also read the actual dialogue.

No, we looked at that. Extensively, actually, as it was an idea brought up on the forums and it bore investigation. Considering the way we write for the voiced PC, showing you the following line doesn't always give you the information you think it would. Often it does, sure, but with paraphrases we're talking about frequency of disconnect... and the frequency is no less when we show the following lines unless we change how we write the voiced PC to make it the same as the silent PC (and thus lose the advantages of such). There is no improvement.

Have you considered adding a dialog rewind option? Like if we don't like how the dialog/whatever is going, just hit a button and go back a cinematic scene or two.

[Jerrybnsn]

Jozape wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

If this paraphrase system is so important, could you at least add a popop when we hover over or highlight a paraphrase that shows the dialogue so that we can also read the actual dialogue.

No, we looked at that. Extensively, actually, as it was an idea brought up on the forums and it bore investigation. ......There is no improvement.

Have you considered adding a dialog rewind option? Like if we don't like how the dialog/whatever is going, just hit a button and go back a cinematic scene or two.

Reading these comments I have to appreciate the efforts going into giving us a cinematic experience that a VO brings to the "hero" of the story.  However, I still assert that a VO takes away the option of playing as yourself to be the "hero" as you watch and listen to the protagonist designed by developers.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Graphic detail in a crpg matters to many people.

Certainly it does.  But what they're doing now is discarding great features purely to showase those improved visuals.

If those visuals are improving the game, then I'm all for them.  If, however, they're destroying the game for the sake of the visuals, then they've gone too far.

The cinematic conversations are exactly this.  Yes, they can draw pretty faces on all of the characters, and I am by no means telling them not to do that.  But I am telling them not to destroy gameplay simply so they can show us those pretty faces.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Jozape wrote...

Have you considered adding a dialog rewind option? Like if we don't like how the dialog/whatever is going, just hit a button and go back a cinematic scene or two.

This is a brilliant idea.

This would solve the paraphrase problem completely without interfering at all with the reason the peraphrases are there in the first place.  People who like to be surprised can continue to be surprised, and those of us who loathe being surprised can avoid it in all cases.

I'm fully behind a rewind button.

[maslove23]

David Gaider wrote...


You don't need to rely on a hunch. We've stated outright that we're sticking with a voiced protaganist as well as the conversation wheel-- at least for the forseeable future. Discussing how we can improve our use of these is one thing, but if one's of the opinion that improvement simply isn't possible and that they must be removed outright there's really no place for that discussion to go. Some people like to talk about it anyway, but removing those features is not really on the table.

Dragon Age 3 going to be bad. The wheel and voiced
protagonist is Mass Effect not Dragon age. At least not the Dragon age
everyone loved, Origins. Well, hell, why try something that Dragon age have filled on. Dragon Age 2 wheel did not provide choice, i believe for one reason, you know what you are choosing. choose the top one, best outcome out their, the one in the buttom is bad outcome. Dragon Age origins provided choice where it really matterd not only that but it was blind, no one know the outcome of their choices untill the very end, not even then. that why I loved Dragon age.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

David Gaider wrote...
Simply displaying the voiced PC's next line and/or turning off the voiced PC's dialogue does not turn it into a silent PC. We're not going to offer an option for someone to do what they think will turn it into a silent PC which will in fact improve nothing for them and most probably would make things worse.

So...one assumes this means no PC mute button and no hover-over text, because they don't mesh with how the paraphrase/VO system is currently being implemented.

It's nice to have an answer, at least. :/ Thanks, and for looking into the possibilities. I didn't have high hopes for alt-text unless the dialogue system changed to something less back-and-forthy, but a mute button didn't look like it was entirely out of the question.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Jozape wrote...

Have you considered adding a dialog rewind option? Like if we don't like how the dialog/whatever is going, just hit a button and go back a cinematic scene or two.

This is a brilliant idea.

This would solve the paraphrase problem completely without interfering at all with the reason the peraphrases are there in the first place.  People who like to be surprised can continue to be surprised, and those of us who loathe being surprised can avoid it in all cases.

I'm fully behind a rewind button.

Neatish idea. I disagree that it would solve the issue completely, but I can see how it would appeal.