767 réponses à ce sujet

[robertthebard]

batlin wrote...

Peasant: Oh thank the Maker! Help me, Champion, my daughter has been kidnapped!

Hawke: Well I could never refuse to help a damsel in distress

Peasant: Oh thank goodness, the ruffians are holed-up in that building over there.

Hawke: I WILL SLAUGHTER THE INGRATES AND MOUNT THEIR HEADS UPON MY MANTLE

Peasant: Uh...ok, well just be sure to bring my daughter back safe please

Hawke: Do not worry, my friend. I swear on my life that no harm will befall your daughter

Peasant: Oh thank you, Champion! Oh, but one more thing, I am but a poor farmer and I won't be able to reward you for this kindness

Hawke: DIE, YOU FREELOADING WORM *kills peasant*


To sum up, both voiced and silent protagonists can be done well, but voiced cannot be done well if the player is supposed to have freedom over their character's demeanor.

Here's the problem I have with this, since it was presented here, in dialog format:

Peasant: Oh thank the Maker! Help me, Warden, my daughter has been kidnapped!

Warden: Well I could never refuse to help a damsel in distress

Peasant: Oh thank goodness, the ruffians are holed-up in that building over there.

Warden: I WILL SLAUGHTER THE INGRATES AND MOUNT THEIR HEADS UPON MY MANTLE

Peasant: Uh...ok, well just be sure to bring my daughter back safe please

Warden: Do not worry, my friend. I swear on my life that no harm will befall your daughter

Peasant: Oh thank you, Warden! Oh, but one more thing, I am but a poor farmer and I won't be able to reward you for this kindness

Warden: DIE, YOU FREELOADING WORM *kills peasant*

See what I did there?  The conversation comes out exactly the same way.  Barring the peasant actually having spoken dialog, this is exactly how it could have played out in Origins.  A rogue HN can rob the keep blind, leaving nothing for Howe to get but the lands/actual keep, all w/out being snarky once.  You can tell nan to kiss your ass in no uncertain terms, and still get your dog out of the larder, so I'm not seeing the difference.

Yes, with VO, if you set a tone for your character, something that has been implied isn't role playing, although in every PnP game I ever played, setting a personality was one of the first things I tried to do, it tends to stick with that tone, but this is valid.  It's also why people won't take others seriously when they try to come off as one personality, then suddenly switch gears to something else, IRL.  Inconsistency is rewarded with doubt and disbelief.

Modifié par robertthebard, 27 juin 2012 - 02:53 .

[batlin]

robertthebard wrote...

Here's the problem I have with this, since it was presented here, in dialog format:

Peasant: Oh thank the Maker! Help me, Warden, my daughter has been kidnapped!

Warden: Well I could never refuse to help a damsel in distress

Peasant: Oh thank goodness, the ruffians are holed-up in that building over there.

Warden: I WILL SLAUGHTER THE INGRATES AND MOUNT THEIR HEADS UPON MY MANTLE

Peasant: Uh...ok, well just be sure to bring my daughter back safe please

Warden: Do not worry, my friend. I swear on my life that no harm will befall your daughter

Peasant: Oh thank you, Warden! Oh, but one more thing, I am but a poor farmer and I won't be able to reward you for this kindness

Warden: DIE, YOU FREELOADING WORM *kills peasant*

See what I did there?

Yeah, you totally missed the point. What I was trying to get across here isn't that the words are what matter, but rather the tone. That's why I put smiley faces after some of the sentences and others in all caps. In Origins, there would be no indicators of tone which lets the player's imagination do the work. With Dragon Age 2? No such luck.

The conversation comes out exactly the same way.  Barring the peasant actually having spoken dialog, this is exactly how it could have played out in Origins.  A rogue HN can rob the keep blind, leaving nothing for Howe to get but the lands/actual keep, all w/out being snarky once.  You can tell nan to kiss your ass in no uncertain terms, and still get your dog out of the larder, so I'm not seeing the difference.

I don't see how those things necessarily negate each others' tone. First, "robbing the keep blind" nets you a few weapons and some elfroot. I'm sure there's plenty left for Howe to take. And telling Nan to shove it does not necessarily mean you won;t get your dog. Sounds like you're just grasping at straws.

Yes, with VO, if you set a tone for your character, something that has been implied isn't role playing, although in every PnP game I ever played, setting a personality was one of the first things I tried to do, it tends to stick with that tone, but this is valid.  It's also why people won't take others seriously when they try to come off as one personality, then suddenly switch gears to something else, IRL.  Inconsistency is rewarded with doubt and disbelief.

So here you're defending the three personality options by saying that if you don't stick with one of them, you, the player, are being inconsistent. That's a pretty shallow way of looking at characterization, if you want to play a snarky no-nonsense badass, something that is not by any means outside the realm of consistency, you get MPD Hawke. You want to be calm and collected but allow no one a second chance? You get MPD Hawke. You want to be nice to Anders but keep the relationship platonic? You get MPD Hawke. See what I mean here?

Modifié par batlin, 27 juin 2012 - 07:04 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

robertthebard wrote...

See what I did there?  The conversation comes out exactly the same way.  Barring the peasant actually having spoken dialog, this is exactly how it could have played out in Origins.

Yes it could have played out like that in Origins, but it only would have played out like that if the player intentionally selected those lines.  If that was the character he wanted to play, then he could have played that character.

That's a strength of DAO, not a weakness.

The problem with DA2 was that the conversation often played out like this even when the player didn't want it to.

[robertthebard]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

See what I did there?  The conversation comes out exactly the same way.  Barring the peasant actually having spoken dialog, this is exactly how it could have played out in Origins.

Yes it could have played out like that in Origins, but it only would have played out like that if the player intentionally selected those lines.  If that was the character he wanted to play, then he could have played that character.

That's a strength of DAO, not a weakness.

The problem with DA2 was that the conversation often played out like this even when the player didn't want it to.

One of the foibles of age, I forgot to add that the paraphrasing did leave me going WTF more than I'd have liked.  Generally speaking, I was able to come away with the Hawke I wanted to come away with.  Some of the lines did indeed seem to be more miss than hit with the paraphrasing, which is where I see this system needing some work.  Of course, BioWare has also stated that that could have been better, so I'm going to wait and see how much it improves the next time, before I go condemning the whole system since, by and large, it did work pretty well in ME, at least in 1 and 2, I haven't played 3, so I don't know if that stayed.

[ianvillan]

robertthebard wrote...

One of the foibles of age, I forgot to add that the paraphrasing did leave me going WTF more than I'd have liked.  Generally speaking, I was able to come away with the Hawke I wanted to come away with.  Some of the lines did indeed seem to be more miss than hit with the paraphrasing, which is where I see this system needing some work.  Of course, BioWare has also stated that that could have been better, so I'm going to wait and see how much it improves the next time, before I go condemning the whole system since, by and large, it did work pretty well in ME, at least in 1 and 2, I haven't played 3, so I don't know if that stayed.

After ME1 fans complained about paraphrasing, after ME2 fans still complained about paraphrasing. Before the release of DA2 bioware said that they knew about fan complaints of the wheel and that they would introduce the icons to stop the problem. But the icons made almost no difference and paraphrasing is just as bad as it ever was.

Bioware are adament on using voice and the wheel including having paraphrasing that goes with the wheel, and before they even announced the next thing they said they would disscuss with the fans on what they are doing with the game but the devs have said the wheel and voice are staying no matter what, they wont even disscuss what they see as the benefits to the game of using these systems.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

ianvillan wrote...

Bioware are adament on using voice and the wheel including having paraphrasing that goes with the wheel, and before they even announced the next thing they said they would disscuss with the fans on what they are doing with the game but the devs have said the wheel and voice are staying no matter what, they wont even disscuss what they see as the benefits to the game of using these systems.

But they have. IIRC, these are some of the benefits they have stated:

a) Aesthetic of wheel is more appealing than text list
Paraphrases are better than hearing a written line repeated verbatim by a VA
c) More cinematic possibilities with the PC voiced

Just because not all of us appreciate these benefits, or view them as such, doesn't mean Bioware is obliged to change. It's to their credit that they're even willing to discuss ideas that supplement or circumvent paraphrases IMO. They don't have to. It's extra work for a feature not everyone will use, even if it would makes a number of us happy.

[Cutlasskiwi]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

Bioware are adament on using voice and the wheel including having paraphrasing that goes with the wheel, and before they even announced the next thing they said they would disscuss with the fans on what they are doing with the game but the devs have said the wheel and voice are staying no matter what, they wont even disscuss what they see as the benefits to the game of using these systems.

But they have. IIRC, these are some of the benefits they have stated:

a) Aesthetic of wheel is more appealing than text list
Paraphrases are better than hearing a written line repeated verbatim by a VA
c) More cinematic possibilities with the PC voiced

Just because not all of us appreciate these benefits, or view them as such, doesn't mean Bioware is obliged to change. It's to their credit that they're even willing to discuss ideas that supplement or circumvent paraphrases IMO. They don't have to. It's extra work for a feature not everyone will use, even if it would makes a number of us happy.

^^Indeed. I've seen David Gaider go into great detail several times about benefits for both silent and voiced protagonist.

[upsettingshorts]

ianvillan wrote...

After ME1 fans complained about paraphrasing, after ME2 fans still complained about paraphrasing. Before the release of DA2 bioware said that they knew about fan complaints of the wheel and that they would introduce the icons to stop the problem. But the icons made almost no difference and paraphrasing is just as bad as it ever was.

You're projecting and/or oversimplifying.

Not all critics of the way paraphrases were done in ME1-2 viewed DA2's addition of the tone icons as completely ineffective.

Fact was, back then, there was more than one kind of paraphrase critic.  There were people who thought the very idea of them was obfuscatory to an intolerable extent, and knowing exactly (or as close to exactly) what their character would say next was of paramount importance.  There were, on the other hand, people who were annoyed when Shepard would select a seemingly innocuous option like "No" and witness their character flip his/her lid and start yelling.  For one of these groups, the icon did make a difference.

The other group, which is not insignificant, is something BioWare appears to view as a lost cause as long as they decide to stick with VO/paraphrase.  What do I mean?  That means that any feature intended to placate this group will either not satisfy said critics (likely) or cost a disproportionate amount of resources (also likely).  

That's why David Gaider comes into threads like these nowadays and states emphatically that discussions about VO and paraphrases existing are off the table because they are a core component of what they do now.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 27 juin 2012 - 02:47 .

[Dakota Strider]

Another problem with using Voice, is that it is redundant.  In DAO and DA2 the player reads what the dialogue choices are, and as they do so, they would imagine what they would sound like before they make their choice.  The difference is, in DAO, after the player makes the choice, the person they are conversing with, immediately replies, and then the player then has another set of choices.  In DA2, the player imagines what the character will say, selects that choice, listens to the character say what was just chosen (or find out the character says something a bit different than what the player chose), and then the player hears the response, before going to the next set of choices.

DAO: 
GUARD: What are you doing sneaking about the backrooms?
Warden: 1) So sorry, I made a wrong turn when looking for the latrine
                 2) Do you know who you are talking to?  I am friends with your Captain.
                 3)  Just helping myself from that no-good Ser Porkalot's belongins.  Take some, there is enough for us both.
(Player imagines how HIS/HER character would say that, and makes a choice, and waits for how the guard will respond.

DA2:
GUARD:  What are you doing sneaking about the backrooms?
Hawke:  1)   I was lost
               2)  None of your business
               3)   Redistributing the wealth.
(player then imagines how his/her character would act, then makes a choice.  Let's say choice 3) , then waits to hear what the character actually says:


Hawke:   Taking up a collection, now its time for you to donate to the cause as well.
(Player:  WTF!!!????)

(edit add, meant to include this originally)
Even if you did not mind the paraphasing that occassionally leads to misunderstandings, it cannot be denied that players in both games would imagine what their player would say, before making their choice.  Why it needs to be vocalized by a voice that may, or may not agree with how the player believes his/her character would sound seems to be a matter of an unnecessary luxury.  The expense takes away from other aspects of the game.  If it could be implemented flawlessly, there would be less reason for complaint.  But because it does cause so many complaints, and the fact it is a redundancy, it seems a bit of stubborness to keep it in the game.

Modifié par Dakota Strider, 27 juin 2012 - 03:33 .

[Jerrybnsn]

Ser Porkalot needs a bigger role for the next game.

[upsettingshorts]

@Dakota Strider

You're making the all-too-common assumption that everyone plays the same way you do.

There's another reason than stubbornness.  People who play differently than you like it.

Acknowledging that they exist, and do not subscribe to your interpretation at all, is the first step towards genuinely productive discussion.

Consistent critics of the VO and paraphrase such as Xewaka and Sylvius acknowledge this, for example, though the latter still likes to waste effort trying to convince us how we're misinterpreting our own experiences.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 27 juin 2012 - 03:54 .

[Lilaeth]

My main problem is that the voice actor is never going to sound like me, so that leaves me feeling kind of remote from 'my' character.

[AkiKishi]

Lilaeth wrote...

My main problem is that the voice actor is never going to sound like me, so that leaves me feeling kind of remote from 'my' character.

Paraphrasing/Voice Acting removes things from the imagination,which is where your character lives and puts it on screen so it's the same for everyone. Trying to play your character in this enviroment is a hit and miss affair.

[Cutlasskiwi]

Dakota Strider wrote...

-snip-

(edit add, meant to include this originally)
Even if you did not mind the paraphasing that occassionally leads to misunderstandings, it cannot be denied that players in both games would imagine what their player would say, before making their choice.  Why it needs to be vocalized by a voice that may, or may not agree with how the player believes his/her character would sound seems to be a matter of an unnecessary luxury.  The expense takes away from other aspects of the game.  If it could be implemented flawlessly, there would be less reason for complaint.  But because it does cause so many complaints, and the fact it is a redundancy, it seems a bit of stubborness to keep it in the game.

To make this short: As someone who approaches (and always have) games from a 3rd person perspective the VO greatly enhances my playstyle and my enjoyment in the game.  I've viewed every PC as BioWares PC since, to me, they are all predefined (some more than others). So to me VO and paraphrases seems like the natural step forward.

[Sylvius the Mad]

robertthebard wrote...

One of the foibles of age, I forgot to add that the paraphrasing did leave me going WTF more than I'd have liked.  Generally speaking, I was able to come away with the Hawke I wanted to come away with.  Some of the lines did indeed seem to be more miss than hit with the paraphrasing, which is where I see this system needing some work.  Of course, BioWare has also stated that that could have been better, so I'm going to wait and see how much it improves the next time, before I go condemning the whole system since, by and large, it did work pretty well in ME, at least in 1 and 2, I haven't played 3, so I don't know if that stayed.

I'll agree ME worked better.  It worked better in that I more often got the tone I wanted (Shepard was quite matter-of-fact), and while Shepard still sometimes said things I unequivocally did not want her to say, the first instance of that I noticed was a few hours into the game (after rescuing Tali).

DA2, though, did that in pretty much every conversation, starting with the very first dialogue event.

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

a) Aesthetic of wheel is more appealing than text list

But it is less functional as it forces shorter lines.

Paraphrases are better than hearing a written line repeated verbatim by a VA

I still don't understand this one.  I get that a lot of people think so, but I don't get it at all.

c) More cinematic possibilities with the PC voiced

This is undoubtedly true, and totally not worth it.

Upsettingshorts wrote...

The other group, which is not insignificant, is something BioWare appears to view as a lost cause as long as they decide to stick with VO/paraphrase.  What do I mean?  That means that any feature intended to placate this group will either not satisfy said critics (likely) or cost a disproportionate amount of resources (also likely).

 
I disagree with BioWare quite strongly on this.  I don't think they can know that features intended to placate this group cannot work.  Maybe they can't, but I see no way they could possibly know.

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Consistent critics of the VO and paraphrase such as Xewaka and Sylvius acknowledge this, for example, though the latter still likes to waste effort trying to convince us how we're misinterpreting our own experiences.

It's only wasted effort if I'm wrong.  Which I am not.

You're far too trusting of your own perception.

BobSmith101 wrote...

Paraphrasing/Voice Acting removes things from the imagination,which is where your character lives and puts it on screen so it's the same for everyone. Trying to play your character in this enviroment is a hit and miss affair.

Roleplaying only ever happens in the player's imagination.  In DA2, you can't know why Hawke does what he does.  You have no in-character basis at all for selecting his responses.

If you're not in-character, then you're not roleplaying.  You cannot be in-character with Hawke.

[robertthebard]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

One of the foibles of age, I forgot to add that the paraphrasing did leave me going WTF more than I'd have liked.  Generally speaking, I was able to come away with the Hawke I wanted to come away with.  Some of the lines did indeed seem to be more miss than hit with the paraphrasing, which is where I see this system needing some work.  Of course, BioWare has also stated that that could have been better, so I'm going to wait and see how much it improves the next time, before I go condemning the whole system since, by and large, it did work pretty well in ME, at least in 1 and 2, I haven't played 3, so I don't know if that stayed.

I'll agree ME worked better.  It worked better in that I more often got the tone I wanted (Shepard was quite matter-of-fact), and while Shepard still sometimes said things I unequivocally did not want her to say, the first instance of that I noticed was a few hours into the game (after rescuing Tali).

DA2, though, did that in pretty much every conversation, starting with the very first dialogue event.

The one thing I keep in mind when comparing these two series is that while they are the same company, there are different teams, and it seems like the writers for ME had a better handle on where Shepard was coming from.  At least in 1 and 2, again, I have no experience with 3, and so cannot make an informed comment on that.  With more development time, perhaps it could have been improved with DA, only time will tell.  We are, however, going to get to find out, since this is the direction that BioWare wants to go, and if they can bring it up to ME's standard through the first two games, I think it will work out fine.

[cJohnOne]

I think that how a character sounds can be gotten use to. The character is more his own self.

[Sylvius the Mad]

cJohnOne wrote...

I think that how a character sounds can be gotten use to. The character is more his own self.

Unfortunately, that means we only ever get to play the game with that one character.  We can't play with a different character later.

[AkiKishi]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

cJohnOne wrote...

I think that how a character sounds can be gotten use to. The character is more his own self.

Unfortunately, that means we only ever get to play the game with that one character.  We can't play with a different character later.

While true, nothing stops you playing an alternate version of that character.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 27 juin 2012 - 07:38 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

cJohnOne wrote...

I think that how a character sounds can be gotten use to. The character is more his own self.

Unfortunately, that means we only ever get to play the game with that one character.  We can't play with a different character later.

While true, nothing stops you playing an alternate version of that character.

A character who is marginally different is a far smaller change than a character who is vastly different.

Those big differences are interesting.

Typically, I don't even play one character at a time.  I'll start one character, and then I'll start another character, and I'll jump back and forth between them as I play and compare and constrast their experiences.

Now there's no constrast.

[Allan Schumacher]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

@Dakota Strider

You're making the all-too-common assumption that everyone plays the same way you do.

There's another reason than stubbornness.  People who play differently than you like it.

Acknowledging that they exist, and do not subscribe to your interpretation at all, is the first step towards genuinely productive discussion.

Consistent critics of the VO and paraphrase such as Xewaka and Sylvius acknowledge this, for example, though the latter still likes to waste effort trying to convince us how we're misinterpreting our own experiences.

Just as reference, a friend of mine actually asked me why DAO didn't have the dialogue wheel, because they preferred it.

/shrug

[Fast Jimmy]

^

I don't mind the dialogue wheel, inherently. Just give us the DE:HR option of seeing full text if we hover over it.

That's all we're asking for. Well, maybe not ALL. But it would fix a of of the voiced PC complaints (except those that say it shouldn't be used at all, period). But the wheel itself can be fixed with paraphrases standard, then full text with a hover.

Boom. Problem solved.

[batlin]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

a) Aesthetic of wheel is more appealing than text list

BS. in what way are shorter lines arranged in a circle more appealing than a simple list?

Paraphrases are better than hearing a written line repeated verbatim by a VA

Anyone who says this has never played Deus Ex HR

c) More cinematic possibilities with the PC voiced

In what way? A game can't be cinematic if you have the dialogue options in a list? It can't be epic if the PC is silent? There's a plethoa of games that came before ME1 that proves this false. Ultima, BG, NWN, KotOR, hell, even the FFs pre-FFX.

Just because not all of us appreciate these benefits, or view them as such, doesn't mean Bioware is obliged to change. It's to their credit that they're even willing to discuss ideas that supplement or circumvent paraphrases IMO. They don't have to. It's extra work for a feature not everyone will use, even if it would makes a number of us happy.

And that's nice and all, but it doesn't change the inherent issues with voiced protagonists in an RPG.

[Allan Schumacher]

Anyone who says this has never played Deus Ex HR

I played DEHR and typically relied on just the couple of words. I didn't bother mousing over to enable the full subtitle (I don't even know if I had the full subtitle even enabled. For some reason I thought it just showed the first part of the line).

In a game like Deus Ex though, I rarely bothered to let JC finish playing his line. In games like Mass Effect and DA2, I actually don't even play with subtitles on.

In what way? A game can't be cinematic if you have the dialogue options in a list?

I do agree with the notion that cinematics are compromised with a silent protagonist. Doing a speech like Alistair's in DAO is a bit cumbersome when done with a silent protagonist (in fact I'm willing to bet it's why the Warden doesn't make the speech).

Silent protagonist works better with talking heads IMO. I don't find myself caring about the lack of VO in Fallout New Vegas.

[Ihatebadgames]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

cJohnOne wrote...

I think that how a character sounds can be gotten use to. The character is more his own self.

Unfortunately, that means we only ever get to play the game with that one character.  We can't play with a different character later.

While true, nothing stops you playing an alternate version of that character.

A character who is marginally different is a far smaller change than a character who is vastly different.

Those big differences are interesting.

Typically, I don't even play one character at a time.  I'll start one character, and then I'll start another character, and I'll jump back and forth between them as I play and compare and constrast their experiences.

Now there's no constrast.

Glad I'm not the only one.i played a Origins stories at the same time and most game that have a high replay have 3 or 4 characters going through at the same time frame.I like to see what I'm missing while i'm missing it.
My complaints with any voices in games come from being "hearing impaired".Once I find a trigger point like the bridge in Lothering,i hit it for as long as I get new conversations so I don't miss any.Use to they put any conversation by a picture of the party members talking.Now it's over their heads and you have to turn the camera around to catch it.

Modifié par Ihatebadgames, 28 juin 2012 - 02:57 .