767 réponses à ce sujet

[BlackFulcrum]

I agree with Foopydoopydoo that it's very hard, cause it's a preferential thing, to each his or her own.
But I can also see Pasquale's angle, for some it would seem that they are not the main character, but just along for the ride, guiding the main character in conversation rather then having the conversation themselves.

For me personally it matters little, I can play unvoiced just as well as voiced, and each has it's pros and cons for me.

As mentioned by others, and this is probably the most important pro, unvoiced makes the character more yours, you are forced to use your imagination more, you can add your own voice for that chararcter, your own inflections, your own mood in a conversation, it goes back to tabletop RPG playing, your character, your voice, your idea of their disposition and mood, your character, you.
The con is that the character itself has less interaction with the world around it, there were time that my character could have shown a little more emotion during some conversations in DA:O.

The pro for voiced, is indeed the counter to the con of the unvoiced one, greater interaction with the world around them, letting the character itself feel more alive, and in the Mass Effect series it was very well done
But, and this is the con, as a friend of mine pointed out, that's because I'm fan of Jennifer Hale and how she voiced fshep, I dislike Mark Meer's portrail of mShep, I actually hate both male and female voices for Hawke, and indeed it did not help me to enjoy DA2.
And liking something like a voice actor is very personal, and also it relative to what role they play, and how overused their voice is.

So adding a voice to a game like DA is very hit and miss, some might like it, others might not, and it's almost a dangerous thing to do, because of how personal a character is in DA, in the end it might be smarter to keep them silent.
I mean as much as like Jennifer Hale, I couldn't see her as the voice of my Warden (see profile pic), it just wouldn't fit, Ash (Liz) Sroka, Tali's voice in ME, with a little Welsh accent put in would probably fit much better for me, but again that just me, and someone else might like something else for their Dalish Warden.

So ya, it's a trade off, a more personal character, with less interactability, or a less personal character with more interactability.

[jillabender]

BlackFulcrum wrote…

So ya, it's a trade off, a more personal character, with less interactability, or a less personal character with more interactability.

Very well put – that's how I see the trade-off as well. Personally, I prefer the silent-protagonist style of DA:O over the style of DA2, but I'm looking forward to seeing what Bioware does with a voiced protagonist in DA3.

Modifié par jillabender, 04 juillet 2012 - 09:04 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

BlackFulcrum wrote...

Personal preference, yes, but only if done well, and I did not find Hawke in DA2 done well, the character felt flat, as did the voice acting, maybe I'm spoiled with Jennifer Hale as my femShep in the ME series, but Hawke just didn't feel all that good.

Jennifer Hale is amazing isn't she? I am incapable of playing a manshep with her voicing femshep. She's just that good. It also suits my Shepard freakishly well.

This I will grant.  I have no conplaints at all with FemShep's voice in Mass Effect.  It was the paraphrase alone that caused me trouble when playing FemShep.

But I tried ManShep first, and his voice was terrible.  This highlights the dangers of the voice overall.  It is far too easy for the voice to be one the player cannot tolerate.

Since a silent protagonist would be absolutely retarded in a cinematic game (unless their tongue was cut out, HEY THERE'S A SOLUTION!!!!) and I like the cinematic approach I'm going with yes, it is necessary.

Given how many people complain that a silent protagonist makes them feel like they're playing a mute telepath, I'd be interested to see a game made wherein the PC is a mute telepath.  Maybe that's the solution that can please everyone.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 04 juillet 2012 - 05:04 .

[jillabender]

Sylvius the Mad wrote…

Given how many people complain that a silent protagonist makes them feel like they're playing a mute telepath, I'd be interested to see a game made wherein the PC is a mute telepath.  Maybe that's the solution that can please everyone.

I would totally play that game!

Modifié par jillabender, 04 juillet 2012 - 10:04 .

[Hayllee]

No. Honestly I don't care one way or the other. I DO want more options though if we get the wheel again. It works fine for Mass Effect, but I always thought DA was going to be a series of complex reactions and decisions, unlike what the DA2 wheel was giving us. (Proper Diplomat Hawke, Joker (occasionally jackass) Hawke, and GRAAAWRRR Hawke are not working for me)

[Fast Jimmy]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Given how many people complain that a silent protagonist makes them feel like they're playing a mute telepath, I'd be interested to see a game made wherein the PC is a mute telepath.  Maybe that's the solution that can please everyone.

Mute telepath protagonist...?

 

[Allan Schumacher]

I can understand your disappointment with Diana Allers, but even if Shepard was a silent protagonist it wouldn't have prevented Chobot from voicing Allers.

I don't quite follow. Are you saying you're hesitant for voiced protagonists because there was a voice actor you were not happy with, so it makes you concerned we'd make similar mistakes with the protagonist's voice?

[Sylvius the Mad]

I think ChookAttack is saying that the quality of Diana Allers's voice acting was so poor as too make him wonder whether you're actually talking voice-acting seriously, and if not then why should he pay the price for voices (the various design restrictions have been well described elsewhere) when you're not giving him the benefit of quality content.

Having not played ME3, I cannot comment on his specific example.

[Allan Schumacher]

The thing is, though, if it's one NPC (that had a small role to boot) is that more of an indictment against voice actors in general?

Couldn't I point at Jennifer Hale as a counterpoint?

[Fredward]

Allan Schumacher wrote...
Couldn't I point at Jennifer Hale as a counterpoint?

Well there goes any argument that Bioware is doing a poor job with voice acting in a massive conflagaration of death and despair. XD

[TonberryFeye]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I can understand your disappointment with Diana Allers, but even if Shepard was a silent protagonist it wouldn't have prevented Chobot from voicing Allers.

I don't quite follow. Are you saying you're hesitant for voiced protagonists because there was a voice actor you were not happy with, so it makes you concerned we'd make similar mistakes with the protagonist's voice?

I think a lot of the backlash against the voiced protagonist comes down to the simple fact that you, as a company, will never rival what we have in our minds.

It's a common issue; when you read a book, you create the world in your head. When someone then releases a film of that book, it can often be very different. The Elves in the LoTR movie don't look like the Elves in my head. Aragorn on screen is not my Aragorn. My Gollum was a hell of a loot scarier than Peter Jackson's Gollum.

The same thing applies here; if Hawke were silent in my playthroughs, the female Hawke would have been a ****sure scoundrel who sympathises with the Mages, but despises the false arguments of Blood Mages. My male Hawke would have been self-confident, maybe a little headstrong, and to the point.

Instead, what I got was a female Hawke who can't take anything seriously, a male Hawke who is filled with non-specific rage, and both of them suffer from shocking bipolar disorders at regular intervals.

If you never give them a voice, this problem never happens.

[AkiKishi]

TonberryFeye wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I can understand your disappointment with Diana Allers, but even if Shepard was a silent protagonist it wouldn't have prevented Chobot from voicing Allers.

I don't quite follow. Are you saying you're hesitant for voiced protagonists because there was a voice actor you were not happy with, so it makes you concerned we'd make similar mistakes with the protagonist's voice?

I think a lot of the backlash against the voiced protagonist comes down to the simple fact that you, as a company, will never rival what we have in our minds.

It's a common issue; when you read a book, you create the world in your head. When someone then releases a film of that book, it can often be very different. The Elves in the LoTR movie don't look like the Elves in my head. Aragorn on screen is not my Aragorn. My Gollum was a hell of a loot scarier than Peter Jackson's Gollum.

The same thing applies here; if Hawke were silent in my playthroughs, the female Hawke would have been a ****sure scoundrel who sympathises with the Mages, but despises the false arguments of Blood Mages. My male Hawke would have been self-confident, maybe a little headstrong, and to the point.

Instead, what I got was a female Hawke who can't take anything seriously, a male Hawke who is filled with non-specific rage, and both of them suffer from shocking bipolar disorders at regular intervals.

If you never give them a voice, this problem never happens.

What you also have to understand is that for people who's first exposure to Middle Earth is the Peter Jackson films, that will be their image.

[TonberryFeye]

You missed the point entirely.

People can create amazing things with their minds, and one of the reasons novels continue to thrill us is that we are very good at filling in blanks. Compared to films, novels are flimsy things with only passing levels of content, yet our imaginations fill the void.

The same thing happens here. When the protagonist is silent (it applies to any character to an extent, but works best for the protagonist) we do all the work the game designers didn't. We create their personality, their motives, the reason they say and do what they say and do. Typically, we do this within the constraints of what we know; most of my friends treat a Dwarf character differently to an Elf character because "Elves are nature-loving tree people" and "Dwarves are stoic, grumpy mountainfolk."

The Warden has no fixed voice, save for the odd soundbite when picking locks or fighting, and yet they all feel more real as characters than Hawke does. Why? Because Hawke's reaction to the world is disjointed and nonsensical due the voice acting! If DA2 had a silent Hawke this problem would not have happened - we would mentally adapt each line to suit how we perceive the character. The diplomatic choice becomes "Hawke is tough, but trying to make them see reason," as opposed to "Hawke is Fluttershy in human form." The aggressive choice becomes "Hawke is irritated by his companion's lack of co-operation," instead of "Hawke has devolved from human to ape to Markus Fenix and can no-longer communicate coherently."

A well designed voiced system could bypass these problems and deliver a convincing protagonist, but A) it's harder to pull off, when it fails, it's more noticable, and C) all evidence says BioWare can't / won't do it.

[AkiKishi]

TonberryFeye wrote...

You missed the point entirely.

People can create amazing things with their minds, and one of the reasons novels continue to thrill us is that we are very good at filling in blanks. Compared to films, novels are flimsy things with only passing levels of content, yet our imaginations fill the void.

The same thing happens here. When the protagonist is silent (it applies to any character to an extent, but works best for the protagonist) we do all the work the game designers didn't. We create their personality, their motives, the reason they say and do what they say and do. Typically, we do this within the constraints of what we know; most of my friends treat a Dwarf character differently to an Elf character because "Elves are nature-loving tree people" and "Dwarves are stoic, grumpy mountainfolk."

The Warden has no fixed voice, save for the odd soundbite when picking locks or fighting, and yet they all feel more real as characters than Hawke does. Why? Because Hawke's reaction to the world is disjointed and nonsensical due the voice acting! If DA2 had a silent Hawke this problem would not have happened - we would mentally adapt each line to suit how we perceive the character. The diplomatic choice becomes "Hawke is tough, but trying to make them see reason," as opposed to "Hawke is Fluttershy in human form." The aggressive choice becomes "Hawke is irritated by his companion's lack of co-operation," instead of "Hawke has devolved from human to ape to Markus Fenix and can no-longer communicate coherently."

A well designed voiced system could bypass these problems and deliver a convincing protagonist, but A) it's harder to pull off, when it fails, it's more noticable, and C) all evidence says BioWare can't / won't do it.

I got the point .

Some people can do that sure. Not everyone can, or wants to do that especially when they don't have to do it. In older games you never had a choice, either you imagined in the details or you saw lots of blanks. That's no longer the case as games like TW2 and Deus Ex demonstrate.

You appear to carry around a lot of baggage because of your history. Other people either don't carry it around, or they are not a part of that history and thus have a completely different view of things.

Bioware have stated time and again. "Voiced PC and Paraphrasing" is a done deal. Those are the parameters I'm working with. I want the best voiced cinematic game possible. Because trying to "recreate" Orgins is just going to result in a mess.

[TonberryFeye]

BioWare may have said that, but that is no reason to accept it. If someone says they are going to throw themselves off a bridge do you say "Okay, if that's what you want to do then I suggest using the tall one on the edge of town."? No! You talk them out of a terrible choice!

BioWare is currently going down hard. You may say otherwise, but between ME3 and DA2 they have lost a lot of the good faith they'd built up with their fans. Ignoring what we liked about their good games in favour of trying to put plasters on their bad games will not win us back.

[AkiKishi]

TonberryFeye wrote...

BioWare may have said that, but that is no reason to accept it. If someone says they are going to throw themselves off a bridge do you say "Okay, if that's what you want to do then I suggest using the tall one on the edge of town."? No! You talk them out of a terrible choice!

BioWare is currently going down hard. You may say otherwise, but between ME3 and DA2 they have lost a lot of the good faith they'd built up with their fans. Ignoring what we liked about their good games in favour of trying to put plasters on their bad games will not win us back.

Games are always like that old fans out new fans in with each instalment. DA2 sucked hard but other games that use voiced PC's are acclaimed and succesful.

Sure you can pull out Skyrim ,everone doe. But Skyrim is a million miles away from being a cinematic game.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

The thing is, though, if it's one NPC (that had a small role to boot) is that more of an indictment against voice actors in general?

Couldn't I point at Jennifer Hale as a counterpoint?

Sure you could.  If he can take one data point and infer a pattern, so can you.

BobSmith101 wrote...

Bioware have stated time and again. "Voiced PC and Paraphrasing" is a done deal. Those are the parameters I'm working with. I want the best voiced cinematic game possible.

So am I.  But I think the best voiced cinematic game possible is one that approximates the gameplay of a silent PC game.

I approve of BioWare making the games better.  I do not approve of them making them worse.

[Shadow Fox]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

One of the foibles of age, I forgot to add that the paraphrasing did leave me going WTF more than I'd have liked.  Generally speaking, I was able to come away with the Hawke I wanted to come away with.  Some of the lines did indeed seem to be more miss than hit with the paraphrasing, which is where I see this system needing some work.  Of course, BioWare has also stated that that could have been better, so I'm going to wait and see how much it improves the next time, before I go condemning the whole system since, by and large, it did work pretty well in ME, at least in 1 and 2, I haven't played 3, so I don't know if that stayed.

I'll agree ME worked better.  It worked better in that I more often got the tone I wanted (Shepard was quite matter-of-fact), and while Shepard still sometimes said things I unequivocally did not want her to say, the first instance of that I noticed was a few hours into the game (after rescuing Tali).

DA2, though, did that in pretty much every conversation, starting with the very first dialogue event.

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

a) Aesthetic of wheel is more appealing than text list

But it is less functional as it forces shorter lines.

Paraphrases are better than hearing a written line repeated verbatim by a VA

I still don't understand this one.  I get that a lot of people think so, but I don't get it at all.

c) More cinematic possibilities with the PC voiced

This is undoubtedly true, and totally not worth it.

Upsettingshorts wrote...

The other group, which is not insignificant, is something BioWare appears to view as a lost cause as long as they decide to stick with VO/paraphrase.  What do I mean?  That means that any feature intended to placate this group will either not satisfy said critics (likely) or cost a disproportionate amount of resources (also likely).

 
I disagree with BioWare quite strongly on this.  I don't think they can know that features intended to placate this group cannot work.  Maybe they can't, but I see no way they could possibly know.

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Consistent critics of the VO and paraphrase such as Xewaka and Sylvius acknowledge this, for example, though the latter still likes to waste effort trying to convince us how we're misinterpreting our own experiences.

It's only wasted effort if I'm wrong.  Which I am not.

You're far too trusting of your own perception.

BobSmith101 wrote...

Paraphrasing/Voice Acting removes things from the imagination,which is where your character lives and puts it on screen so it's the same for everyone. Trying to play your character in this enviroment is a hit and miss affair.

Roleplaying only ever happens in the player's imagination.  In DA2, you can't know why Hawke does what he does.  You have no in-character basis at all for selecting his responses.

If you're not in-character, then you're not roleplaying.  You cannot be in-character with Hawke.

I don't know about you but I don't like being told my perception of something is wrong simply because you disagree with it infact it really pisses me off that is arrogance and ****ry at it's finest. I can roleplay Hawke just fine just because you are incapable of doing something doesn't mean others are and just because you play a certain way doesn't mean others do or that it is the only way to "correctly" play you should really learn that before you accuse others of not knowing how to roleplay just because they don't do it your way saves you from looking like a pretenious insufferable jerkass.

Modifié par Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke, 18 septembre 2012 - 06:57 .

[jbrand2002uk]

I think BW has made their position clear VO will continue so if your prepared to contribute on how to make VO better thats good anything else however then you know where the door is dont let it hit you on the way out.

[Uglybandit]

I have grown to really love VO in my gaming.

[PinkShoes]

If we didnt have a VO though how would we be told how to roleplay?

[Cathrandir]

 yes VO is an absolute must

[Rabid Rooster]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

That's not really fair. I'm just trying to understand why Bioware prefers this style when their reasoning doesn't mesh with what we've seen in previous RPGs.

You're right it's not fair. I have gotten that impression with other posters (not even necessarily on this board) so it can be difficult to disassociate. I apologize!

I can get that some people would find that sort of thing funny, but is that kind of dissonance between the player and their PC what you would call an ideal feature in an RPG?

No. In fact I do actually consider it a slight negative. But for me it's a wash because it's a slight positive to have fully dialogued lines. For me it tends to be a bit of a wash depending on the circumstances. For instance, I'd find full voice over in Fallout New Vegas to be a bit of a waste. Conversations are just talking heads and I don't even see my own (I play exclusively first person). I'm not going to emote during the conversation at all, or otherwise display any other sort of emotion.

If you read the first post I made in this thread (page 20) I explain why paraphrased dialogue works better in RPGs like Mass Effect where Shepard is a consistent character, much like Michael is in AP. In a nutshell, you don;t have a choice between personalities in those games, only in how you react. In DA:O, you do have a plethora of personalities to explore and when you try to voice it you get a Hawke that sounds like he has MPD.

Hmmm, I see your point. Although I didn't feel that Thorton was tied to a particular type of personality though. I think professional Mike is a different character than suave Mike. It might be more a reflection of the voice acting not going as extreme, however. I'll concede that if the voice acting isn't as consistent, it does become more jarring.

In what way? A game can't be cinematic if you have the dialogue options
in a list? It can't be epic if the PC is silent? There's a plethoa of
games that came before ME1 that proves this false. Ultima, BG, NWN,
KotOR, hell, even the FFs pre-FFX.

Well, I'll just up and state that with my history of games like Ultima (I'm assuming you're a fan, given your name, and you know I am based on my "Name" "Job" "Bye" reference) I do not at all consider them to be cinematic experiences. Epic? Sure. Epic has more to do with the scope rather than the style. Same goes for games like Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights, though I do think that KOTOR was a start of a more cinematic focused RPG from BioWare.

There's not only one, but one early in the game is where you're settling a Romeo+Juliet-esque dispute on Dantooine, another is the courtroom scene on Manaan.

Hmmm, I think they're well written scenes. Not as big of a fan of the Romeo and Juliet homage, but I did really enjoy the courtroom scene. I disagree that they are great examples of speeches though. Fun and well written, but Alistair's talk takes the cake IMO. I wanted to kick darkspawn myself. He gets to add all of the emotes and body language into the speech. It's a bit like Shepard's speeches too (the Hale versions in particular are so well done because I think Hale just makes the character come alive so well).

Isn't it ironic how the mood icons are often more honest to the tone of the dialogue option than the words are? But even so, the mood icons too can be deceptive. For example:

*Aggresive* "Your mom was a b****"

Hawke: I'm glad I never had to meet any of your family.

That's not exactly an aggressive statement now, is it?

Yes, this can happen, and I do agree it's an issue. But I get burned with full line dialogues in similar ways, probably with a similar frequency (which isn't all that often in either case) often because I think a line of dialogue is sarcastic (I have a tendency to do that) but evidently based on the character response it's not.

I've been told that that is just the fault of the character I'm talking to, which I suppose in some cases is true, but in my own interactions in life I find I am usually pretty decent at reading someone and knowing whether or not they'll appreciate my sass, and I can often accent it by maintaining eye contact with a little smile after I deliver the line. I find it uncommon for me to outright insult someone, even if I have just met them. In gaming, that is less common in my experience. In fact I think I even got burned with this when I first met Wynne.

Of course. You may as well ask if awesome speeches can be done well in books.

I think if Dragon Age: Origins was a game like Zork the analogy would work better. In a book, not only do I have words but I also have descriptors used by the author to clarify how a line is being delivered. The text will state that the character is flustered, or impassioned. The lines of dialogue in a CRPG are typically devoid of all that. Occasionally a game may have extra information like (Attack) or (Lie) which can help. But given the visual nature of the medium, I'm not just reading about Alistair giving an impassioned speech, imagining the details in my mind. I'm seeing him actually do it, and it can be quite an experience.

I'm not saying it's directly required (I still enjoyed DAO and prefer it over DA2 myself, though for reasons that don't really include the conversation system haha), but unless the scene itself is static (like Fallout and presumably a game like Skyrim), sometiems I just prefer the more cinematic nature, and I think that voice adds to it especially if there are set pieces with active players moving around.


EDIT:  Sorry for obviously missing some details of your earlier posts.  Often I quickly read these while I am waiting for my machine to do something at work, and I can skim over them quickly!

Think your are missing a point here. Yes in books you have discriptors telling you the setting and mood, but with a silent and full texted pc in a rpg video game they are there as well with graphics, animations, and the players own interpertation of the text. That's what is missing with a voiced PC, the role is taken out of the players hand and it is no longer his character but the writers.