767 réponses à ce sujet

[upsettingshorts]

I'd hardly deny that there are plenty of players who prefer the silent protagonist.

Only the idea that the variety of grunts and shouts be used as anything remotely like a comparable standard to full voice acting. That's untenable and absurd.

By that standard, we should consider DA2 as having three voice "options" per sex, because your grunts and shouts could change based on personality tracking. But nobody does, I certainly don't.

But really this is hardly some new debate.

Fans of the silent protagonist see it like this:

DA:O:  Unlimited options based on whatever I can imagine!
DA2:  One option.

Fans of the voiced protagonist see it like this:

DA:O:  No voice.
DA:2:  A voice.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 30 janvier 2013 - 03:22 .

[IanPolaris]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

KyleOrdrum wrote...

As IanPolaris pointed out, it would take 14 voice actors to give as much choice as DA:O did in the character creation menu

Actually, it would take zero voice actors to give "as much choice as DA:O did."  

Unless isolated repetitive words, grunts, and phrases count.  Which for you, I suppose they do.  For me they most emphatically do not. 

As far as I'm concerned DA:O had one real voice option:  None.

Point.  Missing it.

The POINT is that the moment you have a voiced protagonist, the resources involved in voicing the various possibilities means that you will be shoehorned into a very small selection (often just twoi) possible characters.  Some of you may like this, but I want my 14 (or more) different backgrounds.

I won't rant and rave.  Bioware obviously doesn't want my money any more.  Simple as that.

-Polaris

[Festilence]

I can understand why some would prefer a silent protagonist and some would prefer a voiced one.

I personally felt the use of a voiced protagonist in Dragon Age II worked well. I'm open to either/or basically.

[upsettingshorts]

IanPolaris wrote...

Point.  Missing it.

No I got it, it's just that it's a stupid point.

IanPolaris wrote...

The POINT is that the moment you have a voiced protagonist, the resources involved in voicing the various possibilities means that you will be shoehorned into a very small selection (often just twoi) possible characters.

No, you're given two possible voices.

Unless you're saying my character and my friend's character are the same just because they share a voice.  Which is stupid.

IanPolaris wrote...

Some of you may like this, but I want my 14 (or more) different backgrounds.

So your point is that voices equal backgrounds.  Good luck making any sense of that.

If you're talking about playable origins, you're in the wrong thread, making the wrong argument, using the wrong "evidence."

IanPolaris wrote...

I won't rant and rave.  Bioware obviously doesn't want my money any more.  Simple as that.

But they need it to continue to advance their anti-mage agenda!  Why won't you think of David Gaider's personal crusade to oppress your people mages?

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 30 janvier 2013 - 03:30 .

[IanPolaris]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I'd hardly deny that there are plenty of players who prefer the silent protagonist.

Only the idea that the variety of grunts and shouts be used as anything remotely like a comparable standard to full voice acting. That's untenable and absurd.

By that standard, we should consider DA2 as having three voice "options" per sex, because your grunts and shouts could change based on personality tracking. But nobody does, I certainly don't.

But really this is hardly some new debate.

Fans of the silent protagonist see it like this:

DA:O:  Unlimited options based on whatever I can imagine!
DA2:  One option.

Fans of the voiced protagonist see it like this:

DA:O:  No voice.
DA:2:  A voice.

An interesting point about differing views.  I see it this way:

Given my druthers and unlimited resources (both system and money), I'd like to see at least a dozen PC options all voiced...and heck while I are dreaming, I'd like to see about a half dozen male and female voice options each for any given PC background.

Unfortunately, neither money or system resources are in fact unlimited.  That means if you want a voiced protagonist, you have to give up on having a wide variety of character and background options, and personally (being a BG/DAO purist), I think the trade isn't worth it.  Bioware obviously disagrees but given their recent trends and releases, I am forced to conclude that Bioware no longer wants my business.

-Polaris

[Xilizhra]

You know, for a full range of backgrounds, you'd only need... well, honestly, you might just need two voice actors who use different tones and accents for each race, depending on their range. If you don't want that, the maximum would be six, and I'm fairly sure that could be cut down.

[IanPolaris]

[quote]Upsettingshorts wrote...

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...

Point.  Missing it.[/quote]

No I got it, it's just that it's a stupid point.[/quote]

No, it's a valid one.  It's an economic point.  It's a point about trade-offs.

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...

The POINT is that the moment you have a voiced protagonist, the resources involved in voicing the various possibilities means that you will be shoehorned into a very small selection (often just twoi) possible characters. [/quote]

No, you're given two possible voices.
[/quote]

No, you are again missing the point.  If you have a voiced protagonist, you have to cut other parts of the game.  If you don't, you will blow your budget on voice acting alone.


[quote]
Unless you're saying my character and my friend's character are the same just because they share a voice.  Which is stupid.
[/quote]

Strawman.  What I am saying is that if you have voice acting, you have to cut down on player options.  This should be undeniably true.

[quote]
[quote]IanPolaris wrote...

Some of you may like this, but I want my 14 (or more) different backgrounds.[/quote]

So your point is that voices equal backgrounds.  Good luck making any sense of that.
[/quote]

Bioware themselves have said this.  Voice Acted protagonists are incompatible with having many multiple backgrounds and many different races.  It's why DA3 will be human (protagonist) only (well the primary reason why).

[quote]
If you're talking about playable origins, you're in the wrong thread, making the wrong argument, using the wrong "evidence."

[/quote]

Nope.  I am in the right place.  The two are inextricably linked.

-Polaris

[upsettingshorts]

IanPolaris wrote...

Bioware themselves have said this.  Voice Acted protagonists are incompatible with having many multiple backgrounds and many different races.  It's why DA3 will be human (protagonist) only (well the primary reason why).

Only because of BioWare's house rules regarding accents in Dragon Age.

SWTOR links voices and classes, but has many racial options. So a male Jedi Knight always sounds like David Hayter whether he's a human or a Zabrak.

It's a house rule.  Part of their lore.  Something they've altered once already (see elf accents in DA2).  

IanPolaris wrote...

If you have a voiced protagonist, you have to cut other parts of the game.  If you don't, you will blow your budget on voice acting alone.

IanPolaris wrote...

What I am saying is that if you have voice acting, you have to cut down on player options.  This should be undeniably true.

[Citation needed]

Please explain your background in or understanding of video game production.  

How are budgets decided upon?  How are resources allocated?  When?  

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 30 janvier 2013 - 03:37 .

[IanPolaris]

Xilizhra wrote...

You know, for a full range of backgrounds, you'd only need... well, honestly, you might just need two voice actors who use different tones and accents for each race, depending on their range. If you don't want that, the maximum would be six, and I'm fairly sure that could be cut down.

That's still too much because voice acting is very expensive.  It's why DA3 (well one primary reason why anyway) will only allow for human protagonists.

-Polaris

[Xilizhra]

Bioware themselves have said this. Voice Acted protagonists are incompatible with having many multiple backgrounds and many different races. It's why DA3 will be human (protagonist) only (well the primary reason why).

Actually, Bioware's outright denied that voice acting is the reason for race restrictions.

[IanPolaris]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Only because of BioWare's house rules regarding accents in Dragon Age.

SWTOR links voices and classes, but has many racial options. So a male Jedi Knight always sounds like David Hayter whether he's a human or a Zabrak.

Since we are dealing with Bioware and a Dragon Age game, it's still a valid point.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Xilizhra wrote...

Bioware themselves have said this. Voice Acted protagonists are incompatible with having many multiple backgrounds and many different races. It's why DA3 will be human (protagonist) only (well the primary reason why).

Actually, Bioware's outright denied that voice acting is the reason for race restrictions.

That's not what I remember.  Regardless, it is the reason (a reason anyway) we aren't getting multiple backgrounds.  It's a matter of resources.

-Polaris

[upsettingshorts]

IanPolaris wrote...

It's a matter of resources.

Not in the manner you think.

The resource in question is, and has consistently been said to be, time.

Do you know how long it would take to make sure a thing works (in whatever way it needs to, cinematics, writing, modeling, etc) for both a human and a dwarf?

BioWare does.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 30 janvier 2013 - 03:42 .

[IanPolaris]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

It's a matter of resources.

Not in the manner you think.

The resource in question is, and has consistently said to be, time.

Which is still a resource, and still imposes limits.  Voice Acting various backgrounds takes longer (if for no other reason than you have to arrange readings and often multiple readings for the lines).

-Polaris

[smallwhippet]

IanPolaris wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Bioware themselves have said this. Voice Acted protagonists are incompatible with having many multiple backgrounds and many different races. It's why DA3 will be human (protagonist) only (well the primary reason why).

Actually, Bioware's outright denied that voice acting is the reason for race restrictions.

That's not what I remember.  Regardless, it is the reason (a reason anyway) we aren't getting multiple backgrounds.  It's a matter of resources.

-Polaris

...or maybe...could it possibly be that it's just the way they want to make the game? 

[Xilizhra]

IanPolaris wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Bioware themselves have said this. Voice Acted protagonists are incompatible with having many multiple backgrounds and many different races. It's why DA3 will be human (protagonist) only (well the primary reason why).

Actually, Bioware's outright denied that voice acting is the reason for race restrictions.

That's not what I remember.  Regardless, it is the reason (a reason anyway) we aren't getting multiple backgrounds.  It's a matter of resources.

-Polaris

I personally consider backgrounds vastly less important than races, and am willing to sacrifice them for voices. Really, as long as I can play what class I want, it's all good.

[upsettingshorts]

smallwhippet wrote...

...or maybe...could it possibly be that it's just the way they want to make the game? 

I'm obviously not a developer, but from what I've pieced together reading their posts over time, it seems that's exactly what they do:

Take the time they are allotted through negotiations with the publisher, and make the game they want to within the that period.

The key being, when it comes to discussions like this one and others here, is that they know how long things take to do.  We don't.

Xilizhra wrote...

I personally consider backgrounds vastly less important than races, and am willing to sacrifice them for voices. Really, as long as I can play what class I want, it's all good.

I stopped counting a while ago, but a thread I started asking people if they valued origins or races over the other was pretty evenly split, with a slight preference for origins.

Which does little more than demonstrate that there's no consensus, even on the BSN, over such things.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 30 janvier 2013 - 03:50 .

[TheChris92]

It is interesting how people don't complain about Geralt talking in the Witcher. Although one could argue that he is a set character, but then we also have characters like Agent Jensen in Deus Ex. So is it really such a big issue that will ruin the entire game? I respect that people prefer the silent protagonist in order to better role play their character or other reasons, but I also think it is fair not to dismiss the voiced protagonist entirely. I feel that you can still roleplay a voiced protagonist, it is of course just a quesiton of how they choose to handle it. In other words, I don't see a voiced protagonist as a gamebreaker.

Modifié par TheChris92, 30 janvier 2013 - 03:52 .

[smallwhippet]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

smallwhippet wrote...

...or maybe...could it possibly be that it's just the way they want to make the game? 

I'm obviously not a developer, but from what I've pieced together reading their posts over time, it seems that's exactly what they do:

Take the time they are allotted through negotiations with the publisher, and make the game they want to within the that period.

Indeed. The fact that Mike Laidlaw (I think...or maybe it was Mark Darrah) suggested that further down the road there may be another game featuring playable races suggests that, in spite of the howling from sections of the BSN, for this game, at least, what works best for the story and for them is a human protagonist. 

If another game with playable races did appear, though, I'd be very surprised if they returned to the silent protagonist. I, for one, would hate it.

Modifié par smallwhippet, 30 janvier 2013 - 03:59 .

[Merci357]

TheChris92 wrote...

It is interesting how people don't complain about Geralt talking in the Witcher. Although one could argue that he is a set character, but then we also have characters like Agent Jensen in Deus Ex. So is it really such a big issue that will ruin the entire game? I respect that people prefer the silent protagonist in order to better role play their character or other reasons, but I also think it is fair not to dismiss the voiced protagonist entirely. I feel that you can still roleplay a voiced protagonist, it is of course just a quesiton of how they choose to handle it. In other words, I don't see a voiced protagonist as a gamebreaker.

My guess is it's because Geralt was always voiced, while BioWare changed this from one game to the next.

[Fast Jimmy]

If Bioware can let me have a decent amount of control over what my character says and how they say it, I'll be happy. If that can be done with a VO, more power to them. If it can't be done with a VO, then I really think they need to look at more set character types, in order to tell a better story. Being middle of the road, where a VO interferes with creating a character I can believe is mine, but wanting to remain flexible enough to not commit to a solid story is a formula for tepid responses.

[Addai]

TheChris92 wrote...

It is interesting how people don't complain about Geralt talking in the Witcher. Although one could argue that he is a set character, but then we also have characters like Agent Jensen in Deus Ex. So is it really such a big issue that will ruin the entire game? I respect that people prefer the silent protagonist in order to better role play their character or other reasons, but I also think it is fair not to dismiss the voiced protagonist entirely. I feel that you can still roleplay a voiced protagonist, it is of course just a quesiton of how they choose to handle it. In other words, I don't see a voiced protagonist as a gamebreaker.

Set character makes all the difference.  I have no expectation of customizing a set character.  Witcher games let you shape Geralt's effect on events and to some extent his political philosophy, but since characterization is fully out of my hands, I'm already set to a passive- watch mode.  In a game where shaping my character is a big part of the game, however, having a voice cut in constantly is very annoying interference, as is 3rd person view with the camera constantly swinging around to show the PC acting.  It's not my character anymore, so I play it as passively as I would a game with a set character, so the PC ends up just bland and frequently frustrating since I have very little control.

I don't know why people are still discussing this.  VO is the way Bioware is going and for people who don't like voiced protagonist, it's not like you're going to talk us out of it.

Modifié par Addai67, 30 janvier 2013 - 04:17 .

[LilyasAvalon]

I think the main issue people have is how Bioware is jumping back and forth. People are fine with a voiced protag if the rest of the protag's during that series are also voiced and set. Shepard and Gerald for example.

In DA:O, aside from backstory, our Warden was FULLY customisable, which gave players flexibility and replayability, while in DA2, Hawke was a set character, no matter how people look at it. Hawke's backstory had already been establish, Hawke's race, Hawke's family, Hawke's personalities. The fact that Hawke only has one set voice, can also limit how s/he can be physically customised while the warden had between 5 'battle voices/personalities'.

Let's face it, it's a rather limiting in comparison to DA:O. To be perfectly honest, I feel that the protag of DA3 will also be set, just like Hawke was, so I could care less whether or not they are voiced anymore. I'm more interested in whether the story will be any good.