767 réponses à ce sujet

[thats1evildude]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I've got connections. We can try and make this happen.

That sounds vaguely ominous. Mental note: do not cross Fast Jimmy.

Of course, multiple fully-voiced options would be ideal, but I don't think I can buy enough cloth maps to make it a reality.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 20 juin 2012 - 10:48 .

[Jerrybnsn]

Vormaerin wrote...

Jerrybnsn wrote...


I'll take option 1....now....How much money do you need, Bioware, to make this happened?

Judging by the costs of games these days (where we know about them), tens of millions.

so anywhere between 20 and 100 million?  Are you sure you're an expert in video game account management?

[Jerrybnsn]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...

Jerrybnsn wrote...


I'll take option 1....now....How much money do you need, Bioware, to make this happened?

Judging by the costs of games these days (where we know about them), tens of millions.

Which segues into the next conversation piece... how many collector's cloth maps of Thedas would we have to pre-order right now to make sure DA3 has multiple races? 

I've got connections. We can try and make this happen.

We could have a bake sale.

[Vormaerin]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

so anywhere between 20 and 100 million?  Are you sure you're an expert in video game account management?

Of course, I'm not an expert.    But published reports say that industry averages for the high end titles are rising fast, to like 30-40 million two years ago.   Starcraft supposedly cost over $100 million.  Kingdoms of Amalur was supposedly in the $50 million + range.

And we also know that Bioware has repeatedly stated that making the characters (dialogues, cinematics, animations, modelling, voice acting) are among the biggest expenses they have.

So, yeah, if you make the most expensive part of a $50 million dollar game 3-5 times more expensive, you could easily get $10-20 million more in expenses.

I don't know what Bioware's actual budget is and they aren't going to tell us.  Even if its "only" millions to add this feature, we aren't talking pocket change.  That would be a 10% or more price increase in the game right there.  Or the equivalent in cut content elsewhere, as is more likely.

Modifié par Vormaerin, 21 juin 2012 - 12:31 .

[Eragondragonrider]

Most triple A games are now costing the same price as summer blockbuster movies to create. I have read a report where the new COD Black OPS 2 cost is 150mil to create the game, this includes the servers space and everything for MP.

[wsandista]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...

Jerrybnsn wrote...


I'll take option 1....now....How much money do you need, Bioware, to make this happened?

Judging by the costs of games these days (where we know about them), tens of millions.

Which segues into the next conversation piece... how many collector's cloth maps of Thedas would we have to pre-order right now to make sure DA3 has multiple races? 

I've got connections. We can try and make this happen.

We could have a bake sale.

Cakes for content?

[Vormaerin]

Eragondragonrider wrote...

Most triple A games are now costing the same price as summer blockbuster movies to create. I have read a report where the new COD Black OPS 2 cost is 150mil to create the game, this includes the servers space and everything for MP.

Yeah, I've heard that but not personally seen anything that authentics it, so I didn't rely on it in my argument.  But, yes, even a 5 or 10% increase in cost would be millions, perhaps tens of millions.

[PsychoBlonde]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

The level of freedom afforded by a human DM cannot be mimic'd by a computer (or even a human DM using something like NWN's Aurora toolset). Unless we get cracking on genuine AI that can respond appropriately to the infinite instructions that the players could input, it's always going to be a limitation.

Granted, you can use a number of methods that give the *illusion* of more interactivity (not freedom exactly).  I encountered this phenomenon with early quasi-text-based adventure games that turned into point-and-click adventure games later in the series.  Even though the graphics were much worse, the quasi-text-based ones felt more open because you could type in all kinds of ridiculous BS and sometimes there would even be an amusing and appropriate response to your goofing around.  So that was quite cool.  It was more fun than diligently clicking EVERY LAST THING on the screen and getting the same response ("nope") over and over and over and over in order to find what you were allowed to interact with.

On the flip side, however, I never encountered a SINGLE ONE of these types of games where I did not reach a stuck point because I just couldn't figure out what to do.  The worst one, I think, was a case where I had to direct the character to jump onto a floating log.  I can't tell you how many permutations of "jump to log" and "leap" etc. I went through before I managed to hit the magic combo.  It was incredibly frustrating.  I'm not sure the few times when I was able, through some type of subconscious mental process, come up with the precise answer on the FIRST TRY made up for the horrible game-stopping frustration when my seeming telepathy stopped working.

As with everything, it's a tradeoff.  Point-and-click is not inherently better or worse than text-based.  I think the real issue is whether or not you get the most out of the option you chose (given your budget, of course).

[wsandista]

Vormaerin wrote...

Eragondragonrider wrote...

Most triple A games are now costing the same price as summer blockbuster movies to create. I have read a report where the new COD Black OPS 2 cost is 150mil to create the game, this includes the servers space and everything for MP.

Yeah, I've heard that but not personally seen anything that authentics it, so I didn't rely on it in my argument.  But, yes, even a 5 or 10% increase in cost would be millions, perhaps tens of millions.

CoD has HUGE marketing costs, that is what drives up their budget, not development.

[PsychoBlonde]

David Gaider wrote...

That doesn't make them irrelevant by any means-- and certainly DAO proved there's a market for the kind of game it is/was-- but at the end of the day that Golden Goose has laid a lot of different eggs. There's a lot of interests to keep in mind, including our own. From my personal perspective, and with all due respect, I think making the game as good as it can possibly be is what will serve our overall fan base best.

ZOMG.  Mr. Gaider, I posted over in that thread about "what would make you preorder DA: The Next Thing ™", and my answer was pretty much, a dev saying what you just said.  Guess I better go knock someone over and gank their wallet so I can preorder when you open em up.

Oh, and by the way, I've been replaying Dragon Age: Origins a bit lately, and I have to say that the more I PLAY DA:O, the more I have to say that DA2 was a step forward in a LOT of ways.  Although, some of that may be a result of the CRAZY PSYCHO WAR DA:O decided to declare on my new graphics cards in SLI configuration, resulting on me playing for several hours on the lowest resolution with ALL the graphics settings turned ALL THE WAY DOWN until I figured out what the problem was.  Cost me several hours and PISSED ME OFF ROYALLY.

So maybe it's a bit of a reaction to that.  Also the combat is boring as heck.

[ashwind]

Does anyone seriously think that DA2 would be much better if it had a silent PC and different races to select from??

Human, Dwarf, Elves - Now imagine they all live in the same tiny boring city for the entire game, revisit same buildings and dungeons the entire game. Randomly pick up something on the ground and deliver it to some random NPC and mashing the "awesome" button mindlessly through waves of ninjas the entire game.. Even if each race has its unique VO - DA2 will still not do any better than it is now.

Race is the least of DA2's shortcoming and if VO must be sacrificed for something, it should not be for the sake of race.

[wsandista]

ashwind wrote...

Does anyone seriously think that DA2 would be much better if it had a silent PC and different races to select from??

Yes.

Human, Dwarf, Elves - Now imagine they all live in the same tiny boring city for the entire game, revisit same buildings and dungeons the entire game. Randomly pick up something on the ground and deliver it to some random NPC and mashing the "awesome" button mindlessly through waves of ninjas the entire game.. Even if each race has its unique VO - DA2 will still not do any better than it is now.

Race is the least of DA2's shortcoming and if VO must be sacrificed for something, it should not be for the sake of race.

True, the combat also felt out of place in a party-based realtime w/ pause RPG.

[jackofalltrades456]

I'm still trying to figure out how they saw this as an improvement.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

David Gaider wrote...

CrustyBot wrote...
Lol. This is why BioWare should just stop trying to make RPGs. Wouldn't get academic arguments like these. I firmly feel as if BioWare's focus on NPC driven cinematic narratives would be better served by being in a different genre (like the Action-Adventure one) rather than the RPG genre.

That's only true if it bothers us that there are fans who like to argue about what an RPG should/must be. RPG's as a genre cover a lot more territory than some would like-- and that's fine insofar as it makes for a discussion on a forum-- but it causes no more misconceptions when compared to genre expectations than it would if we suddenly said we were an Action-Adventure game or whatever else. I think most people believe RPG's involve lots of story, talking and stats... and the nuances otherwise are meaningless to anyone who isn't an RPG grognard.

Personally, I'd say player VO isn't a must for an RPG. Silent protaganists work great, so long as there's not a lot of cinematics involved-- Fallout or Skyrim, for instance, use a first-person view where you don't see your own character and the dialogue is mostly talking heads. For their purposes, that works.

If you have cinematics, then it becomes problematic to also have a silent PC. Yes, I'm aware that some people liked it well enough in DAO (and it's no surprise you'd see a concentration of those people on the DA forums). We really did our best to work around it, so it's nice to see people who thought that was successful. We don't, however, think it works all that well for our purposes... so while player VO isn't a must for an RPG, it's a must for where we intend to take this RPG. That naturally leads to arguments over whether that makes it enough of an RPG, what an RPG is and whether we should do things like have a completely preset character or abandon the RPG genre label altogether... and while such discussions are great they're simply not what we're going to do.

We'd rather focus our efforts on how to make that better work for the kind of RPG we're trying to create than dwell on classifications of RPG's. I don't think we've any illusions that our solutions will work for everyone-- but, then again, they never do.

Maybe it's because I wasn't particularly on topic, led into the post with a joke, used my post to springboard into the general topic or that I had to clarify my thoughts in a much longer/boring follow up post, but you've completely missed the thrust of my argument and portrayed it as something different to what it was intending to be. It is not a "but is it an RPG?" type of post at all.

FWIW, I agree with you on the issue of VO.

Modifié par CrustyBot, 21 juin 2012 - 05:32 .

[Iakus]

Both voiced and silent protagonists have advantages and disadvantages.

One advantage to voiced is indeed the opportunity to have more cinematic conversations

One disadvantage is the risk of more cinematic conversations.

[Allan Schumacher]

Dakota Strider wrote...

This reminds me so much of certain movies, that go to Cannes Film Festival, and other such venues, and get awards there, and all the "right" artsy-fartsy movie critics fawn over them.  Then the movie is released, and nobody wants to go watch it.  Then the movie fans are called "stupid" for not understanding the "artistic direction" the movie was trying to portray.

These people forget, that if they want paychecks, they need to cater to the consumer.  If they want to make art, for the sake of making art, they should do so, but not complain if nobody else likes it. 

Mr. Gaider, I am not saying that you are saying those of us that wish for a more classic Role Playing game experience are stupid.  Not even trying to hint at that.  I just hope the DA team knows what they are doing.  Perhaps I am all wrong, but I consider the base of fans Bioware has built up through the BG games, NwN games, and DAO as your Golden Goose.   You got a gold egg out of us when most of us bought DA2 immediately on release or pre-order.  But don't kill the Golden Goose by starving us from what we keep coming to the feed trough for.

I found it interesting that you can interpret this post in two ways:

1) The devs are "calling people stupid" (I know you're not actually saying that, I'm just using your analogy) for not liking the game that they made.
2) Fans of the RPGs like Baldur's Gate are "calling other gamers stupid" for not liking the game that they love.

[Dominus]

Fallout or Skyrim, for instance, use a first-person view where you don't see your own character and the dialogue is mostly talking heads. For their purposes, that works.

I agree with that - especially that the conversation system for the Dragon Age series involves a third-person perspective, it's a bit more jarring to have a silent protagonist in that particular way. The V:tmB's and Skyrims of the world have an easier time getting away with it within the eyes of first-person.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

DominusVita wrote...

Fallout or Skyrim, for instance, use a first-person view where you don't see your own character and the dialogue is mostly talking heads. For their purposes, that works.

I agree with that - especially that the conversation system for the Dragon Age series involves a third-person perspective, it's a bit more jarring to have a silent protagonist in that particular way. The V:tmB's and Skyrims of the world have an easier time getting away with it within the eyes of first-person.

It's not necessarily the third person perspective, it's the cinematic aspect. The entire point of cinematics is to emulate film and cinema as a means of storytelling. The characters act out scenes. Unless your PC is Marcel Marceau, a silent PC becomes a sticking point since BioWare wants to move towards a more cinematic narrative.

It depends on how you present interaction and conversation.

[Vormaerin]

wsandista wrote...

CoD has HUGE marketing costs, that is what drives up their budget, not development.

Could by why I haven't seen authentication, since I am looking at development costs.   Though most developers do development and publishers do marketing as separate budgets  (even if the publisher owns the developer).   Of course, its the same sales that have to pay for both.

One of the major issues in the Turbine vs Atari lawsuit over the DDO property was that Atari was not doing the marketing that they were supposed to.

Anyway, its irrelevant.  The only point is that it would drive up costs in a not insubstantial way.  Since its difficult to raise prices on a game unilaterally  (they are what is called "sticky" in retailing speak), that means they would have to reduce other content.   Which is why in DAO, they went with what I called Option 2.

Perhaps because I am afflicted with an anthropology degree, I am much more interested in the culture of my characters than their physiognomies.    I'd gladly take 3 culturally distinctive humans over a dwarf, elf, and human that shared the same culture.  Its what I find particularly galling about DAO:  they set you up with multiple cultures and then dropkicked them once you became a warden.

Cultural Amalgamation:  The Hidden Secret of Darkspawn Taint.   Could be a mage's research thesis

[Dominus]

To Crusty, well I think it's both the conversation and the cinematics. There's always a bit of a disconnect as the grey warden speaks literally nothing, followed by other characters reacting/talking to you. You can get away with that in cRPGs i.e. PS:T or what have you, but not quite with DA. The cinematics do make it a far larger issue, though.

[wsandista]

Vormaerin wrote...

Anyway, its irrelevant.  The only point is that it would drive up costs in a not insubstantial way.  Since its difficult to raise prices on a game unilaterally  (they are what is called "sticky" in retailing speak), that means they would have to reduce other content.   Which is why in DAO, they went with what I called Option 2.

Not to mention the cost of production(unless they have developed more efficient tools) is also sticky. I was fine with what DAO provided, I just selected the line most in-line with the PC.

Perhaps because I am afflicted with an anthropology degree, I am much more interested in the culture of my characters than their physiognomies.    I'd gladly take 3 culturally distinctive humans over a dwarf, elf, and human that shared the same culture.  Its what I find particularly galling about DAO:  they set you up with multiple cultures and then dropkicked them once you became a warden.

Cultural Amalgamation:  The Hidden Secret of Darkspawn Taint.   Could be a mage's research thesis

That is your perspective then. Not everyone shares that perspective and quite a few do.

DominusVita wrote...

To Crusty, well I think it's both the conversation and the cinematics. There's always a bit of a disconnect as the grey warden speaks literally nothing, followed by other characters reacting/talking to you. You can get away with that in cRPGs i.e. PS:T or what have you, but not quite with DA. The cinematics do make it a far larger issue, though.

I disagree. The cinematics are what caused the problem with the silent PC, not the conversations. The reason cinematics don't mesh well with silent PC is that they require action that would be too complicated to implement a system that gave the player fine control of the PC.

Now if cinematics did not involve the PC, then silent PC works excellently, but if the PC is involved in cinematic heavy sequences, then it does play a little off if they are silent. Conversations worked with a silent PC because they don't require input as rapidly as a cinematic does.

Modifié par wsandista, 21 juin 2012 - 05:52 .

[Lenimph]

There are still people butthurt about how they can't read their pc's lines to themselves in their silly roleplay voices?

How many months ago did Bioware say silent protagonists were dead to them? Can we get over this already? Besides the only game I felt a silent protagonist truely worked for without feeling awkward at all was Okami and do you know why? Because I was playing as a freaking wolf, and even she barked up a hellstorm! I'm so glad Bioware is going to stick to a VO protagonist, and I feel that if they brought back race choice no one would be complaining right now. Unless you know you're really upset about not being able to read those lines to yourself, regardless of the fact that you can present them to yourself wrong and the fixed character reactions ruin that anyway.

Modifié par Lenimph, 21 juin 2012 - 06:35 .

[seraphymon]

David Gaider wrote...
If you have cinematics, then it becomes problematic to also have a silent PC. Yes, I'm aware that some people liked it well enough in DAO (and it's no surprise you'd see a concentration of those people on the DA forums). We really did our best to work around it, so it's nice to see people who thought that was successful. We don't, however, think it works all that well for our purposes... so while player VO isn't a must for an RPG, it's a must for where we intend to take this RPG. That naturally leads to arguments over whether that makes it enough of an RPG, what an RPG is and whether we should do things like have a completely preset character or abandon the RPG genre label altogether... and while such discussions are great they're simply not what we're going to do.

We'd rather focus our efforts on how to make that better work for the kind of RPG we're trying to create than dwell on classifications of RPG's. I don't think we've any illusions that our solutions will work for everyone-- but, then again, they never do.

Even for your purposes of where your taking this i dont think its a must to have a VO. Especially when itsj ust a thing to make 1 simple aspect appear better, While it  will inevitably take away resources better spent elsewhere. Again all games today seem to just want to focus on cinematics aspect, instead of hte actual "GAME"

[zyntifox]

Lenimph wrote...

There are still people butthurt about how they can't read their pc's lines to themselves in their silly roleplay voices?

How many months ago did Bioware say silent protagonists were dead to them? Can we get over this already? Besides the only game I felt a silent protagonist truely worked for without feeling awkward at all was Okami and do you know why? Because I was playing as a freaking wolf, and even she barked up a hellstorm! I'm so glad Bioware is going to stick to a VO protagonist, and I feel that if they brought back race choice no one would be complaining right now. Unless you know you're really upset about not being able to read those lines to yourself, regardless of the fact that you can present them to yourself wrong and the fixed character reactions ruin that anyway.

Excuse me for favouring a feature in a game that you do not. Is it ok to discuss us wanting to return to a more strategic combat in DA3? Or is that something that we should get over aswell? It would be really good if you could give us some outlines of what is propoer to discuss on a forum.

[Jerrybnsn]

wsandista wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...

Eragondragonrider wrote...

Most triple A games are now costing the same price as summer blockbuster movies to create. I have read a report where the new COD Black OPS 2 cost is 150mil to create the game, this includes the servers space and everything for MP.

Yeah, I've heard that but not personally seen anything that authentics it, so I didn't rely on it in my argument.  But, yes, even a 5 or 10% increase in cost would be millions, perhaps tens of millions.

CoD has HUGE marketing costs, that is what drives up their budget, not development.

What could they possible be spending it on because it sure isn't VO or writing for  a six hour single player storyline?  You might be talking about that whole online subscription thing they have going.