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[Nameless one7]

I love the A song of fire and ice books to, but I don't think the show is even going to get finished.

[Alpha-Centuri]

Battles: Yeah a little weak until Blackwater. THAT made up for the last couple seasons. One of the greatest battle depictions on TV i've seen.

Nudity and sex: I agree mostly. The Ros storyline is utter bull. Absolutely pointless. However, the last half of season 2 was less of that simply because they actually had to get the ball rolling with the conflict. Overall, its a negative not because there is an abundance, but because often it doesn't world-build, nor does it expand the plot. It's already established that this isn't a LOTR highly noble world, they don't have to keep doing it (to be fair, they kinda stopped for the most part. The scene with Bronn where the who're was on his lap is fine. )

My point is that it still has much of the intrigue of GRRM intact. The political scheming, the relationships, the world (it is diminished due to poor exposition... i'm looking at you North and Qhorin Halfhand).

With that said, the changes are not for the lulz. It would not fit to be a line by line adaption. If you are going for changes in season 1 like Asha=Yara, Shae=Shae with an accent, or recent ones like Westerling = Lady Talisa, then those are easy. The producers explained the Asha one, it is because they didn't want to confuse people early on between Osha and Asha. Shae they are doing to make her distinctive and add a dynamic with Tyrion to allow him to have a dialogue rather than his inner thoughts. As she is in the book, she is a no personality servant who is there for sex. Kill two birds with one stone.

Now... Alayne=Talisa... That... I have NO clue about. Probably to make the Red Wedding be out of nowhere. If you found out that Talisa's family was bannermen to Tywin, audiences will certainly expect a double-cross at some point.

Now Dany changes? The subtle ones don't matter. Maro getting killed by Drogo is easily fixed... Make a new character who was there. Season 2 changes? Yeah some will snowball, like the lack of lesbian sex with her handmaidens and Xaro's plot... But to be honest, her storyline goes extremely bland for a long stretch of time, including in the newest book. I don't blame them for changing it, although I do lament that we don't know where GRRM is going with the storyline in future books.

And here we are.. We made a seperate thread to not talk Three Kingdoms in GOT thread, and here we are speaking GOT in the TTK thread.

As to the HBO comment, it is the best show of its kind out in the western market. It might now be TK, but its really good in its own right.

Modifié par Alpha-Centuri, 18 juin 2012 - 08:22 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

I agree that GoT is still a good show and better than most out there (whether it's a good adaptation is a different issue and one I cannot talk about). But, for me, it lost momentum in the 2nd season. Whether it can regain my interest in the 3rd is possible, but it's generally a bad sign that I stop caring by only the 2nd season.

But Three Kingdoms is definitely good enough to be praised for its own merits. I am nearing the 60th episode and it's consistently been great. Full of political intrigue that I feel is explained well (sometime, I feel it's explained too much, but maybe that's because I know the period and grasp the dynamic between the polities because of my studies. Perhaps those newly introduced to the setting would appreciate it a lot).

And Cao Cao is definitely a magnificent bastard (the best thus far imo), but he is not the only one. Zhou Yu, Zhuge Liang, Sima Yi and Cao Pi can also be considered magnificent bastards. In fact I am expecting Sima Yi to rival Cao Cao if not surpass in terms of shrewdness.

[Chewin]

The politicial intrigues are handled well, and thankfully doesn't try to hide or simplify it too much. But in some cases it may require you to have some knowledge on a / that specific period / event, for you to fully graps the situation. Otherwise it may get a bit confusing, but generally I think the overall pacing is good.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The thing that I found the most difficult to keep up with is localizing the events geographically (something I always need to do to fully grasp the geo-political context). The series suffer from not having short sequences with a map to show us where we are.

I googled and searched myself for every major event but it's a hassle and often the names of regions / cities back then completely changed. But this is something that most series suffer from, GoT included.

But yes I suspect those completely new to that period would get confused. It's not a simple period afterall, it had a pretty intricate dynamic and a huge number of major figures.

I just finished watching the Battle of Tong gate (Cao Cao vs Ma Chao). It was pretty cool and the duel between Xu Cho and Ma Chao was awesome, one of my favorite duels. In general, I like the duels, barring the occasional over-the-topness.

[Chewin]

Indeed. Even I having read of the era taking place, I still found it hard to know where events where taking place, and as you said, names have changed.

As I'm only on episode 10, I haven't seen that many duels and battles. Though I find them enjoyable to watch, I tend to not take them that seriously, considering the rather abnormal fighting. Not that it's a problem, per se.

[Alpha-Centuri]

I gotta admit I'm pretty new to the period, but I enjoy doing the side research to make sense of what's going on. Eastern culture has kinda had my attention for a few years, mainly The Warring States period of Japan. Ohhh would I pay for a series about that starts off with Oda Nobunaga's rise and continues through the Tokugawa shogunate or even further.

[Mr. Tethras]

Chewin3 wrote...
As I'm only on episode 10, I haven't seen that many duels and battles. Though I find them enjoyable to watch, I tend to not take them that seriously, considering the rather abnormal fighting. Not that it's a problem, per se.

It's kinda 'traditional' for the chinese to add overexaggerated fight scenes. Besides, I don't think they are that bad.

[Chewin]

@Alpha I could approve of that, simply b/c Oda is a BAMF.

@Mr. Tethras When someone like Zhao Zilong takes on dozen of soldiers all by himself, sending them -- literally-- flying through the air, I call it exaggerated. Though again, doesn't bother me.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zhao Yun has the worst fight scenes imo. The others are still grounded despite being exaggerated occasionally.

[Prince_12]

Just recently started watching this, and is awesome as hell! Though a few things I wonder:

The people very often use the term "the world". Is this referring to them actually thinking that China is the world, or do they literally mean the whole world?

And about Liu Bei, is he a heir to the Han dynasty, or is he a servant of some sort?

[RedArmyShogun]

Prince_12 wrote...

Just recently started watching this, and is awesome as hell! Though a few things I wonder:

The people very often use the term "the world". Is this referring to them actually thinking that China is the world, or do they literally mean the whole world?

EDIT fixing for typo's typed this in a hurry earlier on .

And about Liu Bei, is he a heir to the Han dynasty, or is he a servant of some sort?

He's more of a servent in a way, though more like in how the typical citizen of China owned all to Heaven (IE the Emperor) though technically if everyone with better claim were dead he could be. Problem is at the time the Han Dynasty is nothing but falling apart.

And you have to remember to China during much of its history has seen its self as the world, and for good reason most of that time.

Durning much of its history they had vast cities and huge armies with equipement being built in mass, while Europe was mainly earth huts and handforges. In fact durning the height of the Roman Legions, the Chinese Imperial Army outnumberd it massively, had better siege weapons. But each had little to no offical knowladge or contact.

To the North is vast desert and frozen wastes full of barbarians, To the south is high mountains or little farming peasant peoples, who were always a scource of conquests or court trouble. India is on the otherside of the Mountains, but was a shatterd group of nation states not worth the trouble. To the West is more Desert and more Barbarians, and to the East is Japan, just an island of Peasants and the vast seemingly unending Pacific Ocean.

Then you have China, large amounts of resources, mighty Armies and cities, where several tens of thousands dead is no big deal, massive imperial constructs, etc, etc. Its like you live in Europe and the Rest of the World is Ethiopia. What World is there?

Hitler had much of the same Mindset, in one of my WW2 books its clear by world domination all the Na zi's had in mind was Europe and parts of Africa. To the leadership Europe was the World, I have a chart in one of my books, Italy would of had the Balkins and North Africa, Germany all of mainland Europe plus Greenland, Iceland and the UK. Japan was given all of Asia with India and the Arab states as a buffer, and the US was (you have to remember at the time alot of Americans favored joining the ****'s) region of influance was all of North America, and South America, Minus CA and the Island Regions, which was going to be given to Japan.. Stupid of them, but meh. 

Course the Great Khan changed all of that and used Chinese power, among others, to carve a vast Empire, if not for a couple untimely deaths it is likely that almost everyone East of the UK would be related to Mongolians or Chinese today, not too mention funny enough it might be the South American and North American tribes who held power in todays world. The Mongols were rather good at ripping things down and killing 50% of the regions population off and setting progress back.

In part I think that while it served to unite China, it pretty much ignored the places it seen and shut its doors, which lead to events today. That is the Europeans kicking its doors in, generation of humiliation, and China rebuilding and to an extent having an axe to grind and a distrust of alliances.

But yeah when one says the World, it doesn't often litterally mean that. Would you consider East and West Africa worth conquest or as part of the world? Geo wise sure, but does it offer any real value short of looking nice on a map?

Modifié par Confess-A-Bear, 20 juin 2012 - 05:48 .

[Prince_12]

I see. Suppose that makes sense with Liu.

And thank you for the clarification. You explained a lot better than I expected. And I had never really considered that the term "world" can have different meanings.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Good explanation bear, that was indeed the Chinese mindset even up to the 19th century. Another tangent of that mindset was the belief that China was the only worthy nation under the heavens. Indeed shortly before the opium war, when the British Empire offered gifts in the name of the queen to the emperor, he replied by thanking the British for their act of submission. They were that blind.

As for Liu Bei. He's not a servant, he is a member of the Imperial family (though not part of the direct line of current emperors), but his father abandoned political life. The founder of the Han dynasty was a Liu. Liu Bang.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 20 juin 2012 - 01:50 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

The thing I like a lot about this show is how ambiguous Liu Bei is. I still cannot figure out if he is very smart and manipulative or an naive idealist. He most certainly wants to have the image of a virtuous and benevolent ruler, but he consistently lies about his intentions.

Most of his moves look stupid at first glance, but either Zhuge Liang or Pang Tong interpret his actions as a smart move which do lead to a good outcome. But Liu Bei never explicitly says so, so most of the time it looks like a fluke. Sop I can't figure out if he is very lucky or very smart.

It's most likely a mix. And it is explicitly shown that he is a liar on several occasions. I think Liu Bei is a decent manipulator, but he does believe in his principles and values. Just that his ultimate ambition surpass them in priority. But that same ambition demands that he has the image of being a just and virtuous lord who is loved by the people.

I was afraid that Liu Bei would ****** me off, but he is one of my favorite characters.

[RedArmyShogun]

I see him somewhere in the middle, also cleaned up my post, blah typed i na rush and in the morning, typo's, typo's everywhere lulz.

Modifié par Confess-A-Bear, 20 juin 2012 - 05:49 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Well this episode that I am watching just shed a lot more light on the matter. Liu Bei, in his drunkness, says that he hates himself for wanting to fulfill his ambition while being virtuous at the same time. He is torn between the two.

So he always waits till the two coincide: when his ambition can be justified on moral grounds. Which is not necessarily contrary to pragmatism, as of yet it mostly worked out for him. He needs popular support and for the province that he wants to conquer to accept him as legitimate ruler, to truly secure a foothold.

That was Cao Cao's mistake when he took over Jing and immediately rushed to the South, when Jing was not loyal to him. He lost it afterwards relatively easily. Of course Cao Cao followed his mantra of "Realize your mistake, fix it but never admit it" as shown by his policies after the battle of Chi Bi.

EDIT: Pang Tong and Zhuge Liang on the other hand are quite ruthless. They seem to do all the dirty work for Liu Bei and I am not sure he is even aware of what they are doing. So he seems to be the kind that enjoys sausages without knowing how it was made.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 20 juin 2012 - 07:12 .

[Chewin]

A thorough post, bear! That's exactly how they thought in that era, and I don't judge them for it. There's a lot of truth in that.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
The thing I like a lot about this show is how ambiguous Liu Bei is. I still cannot figure out if he is very smart and manipulative or an naive idealist. He most certainly wants to have the image of a virtuous and benevolent ruler, but he consistently lies about his intentions.

From what I've seen so far, while Liu has great aspirations, ambitions and generally noble goals, I think he is also very naive and his achievements so far have had a lot to do with luck. And I don't know if I should call his desire of 'taking' the Xu Province from Tao Qian admirable or absurd. And even after getting the imperial edict, he still declines the 'ownership' over it. And letting Zang Fei remain in Xu was a mistake, yet alone trusting Lu Bu.

So it's a mixed bag for me as well, but mostly leaning to the negative side. Further on the episodes will maybe change my mind.

[Alpha-Centuri]

I haven't seen a more thick-headed character than Lu Bu.

[RedArmyShogun]

Lol nor one more full of himself.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Haha yea, though I did like this interpretation of Lu Bu. He is usually portrayed as a brute. But here, while he is brutish, there is more to his character.

The character that I couldn't stand at first was Zhang Fei, because of how much of a moron he is. But he improves, though knowing how he dies I wouldn't say he improved much.

[Alpha-Centuri]

I'm at episode 20... When does he improve? I look forward to it, although yea... After seeing what he did to Lu Bu's cousin the Colonel... I can see why his men don't really respect him.

[KnightofPhoenix]

After Zhuge Liang joins Liu Bei, though not without effort. Zhang Fei and Guan Yu are very arrogant and take a long time to trust newcomers.

[Alpha-Centuri]

So I've watched the 32 episodes on youtube with English subtitles. Are there another set on youtube? If not, is the download the completed series + english subtitles?

[RedArmyShogun]

There is one more usser on Youtube that has all of the eps. Two problems least to me though.

One its divided up into 4 parts a ep.

And Two

Some annoying caption of the place it was Dled from is semi-trans plasterd on the screen. If that doesn't bother you I can link you.