673 réponses à ce sujet

[Treacherous J Slither]

I'm curious as to how anyone can choose to take the side of the oppressor and actually justify it. Convince me that the Templars locking mages up in a tower is a better alternative than them being free and attending a school that teaches them about magic and being a mage with the Templars themselves simply being a police force that goes after "the bad ones".

Ser Thrask knew what was up. Too bad they aren't all like him.

[Chiramu]

Orsino is just as insane as Meredith and during Acts 1 and 2 Meredith is more logical when Orsino is ranting like a madman.

They just need to write the characters to put forth a sensible fight if they are being oppressed. Looking at how Gandhi used passive aggressive tactics against the British army is a good way to write the mages' plight. At present they are a bunch of morons not thinking about how to rid themselves of their problem effectively.

[Treacherous J Slither]

Chiramu wrote...

Orsino is just as insane as Meredith and during Acts 1 and 2 Meredith is more logical when Orsino is ranting like a madman.

They just need to write the characters to put forth a sensible fight if they are being oppressed. Looking at how Gandhi used passive aggressive tactics against the British army is a good way to write the mages' plight. At present they are a bunch of morons not thinking about how to rid themselves of their problem effectively.

I agree that the writing is bad but, who do you side with and why?

[deuce985]

I sided with both...it depends on the character I"m RPing.

My main sided with mages. My first mage actually sided with Templars...

That seemed a little backwards to me, actually. Or maybe my mage just realized she had a major responsibility with magic being so powerful. I don't know, I just felt it was odd I sided with Templars on my mage.

Anyways, from my personal view, I'd probably side with mages. Most of the problems arise with the mages is when they feel cornered. Mages are like slaves. I understand they need responsbility considering how powerful they are but the Templars could do a better job at making mages happier. Of course they're going to rebel when you're breathing down their neck and the slightest "rule" being broken, their solution is to kill them or make them tranquil? They can't see their families ever? I guess I would end up going nuts and killing Templars.

Also, the Templars make it seem like society in Thedas doesn't need mages, when it's the complete opposite. Would the darkspawn threat be silenced without mages? Probably not.

One thing I hated about the writing in DA2 is they never showed a neutral view to blood magic enough. Yet, it's obvious throughout the game not all blood mages/magic is evil. My mage ran around with blood magic and was perfectly sane? They revived my sibling using blood magic. You seen some hints that it's helpful in DA:O too. Why can't we see more of that? Because of the way blood magic is seen as "100% evil" in a lot of eyes, it makes DA2 feel slightly leaned to Templars, even if mages are treated terribly...

Or maybe I'm just not seeing blood magic right...maybe it is 100% evil. Maybe it takes control of the body eventually and creates abominations. It's inevitable? I find that very hard to believe though. Especially when an entire Thedas society(Tevinter IMperium) revolves around blood magic. I find it very hard to believe the majority of their people are abominations running around. Just seems like to me when a mage has to resort to desperate measures, that's when blood magic gets out of control. And then you just have the crazy people abusing the power to begin with.

Modifié par deuce985, 17 juin 2012 - 10:18 .

[deuce985]

Oh, sorry about going OT again lol. Kinda lost sight to the topic.

I could see plenty of justification for the Templars. Do I agree with it? Absolutely not. But mages have to be held to different standards simply because they're so powerful. You could argue they're responsible for much of the "bad" in Thedas. When you hold the power to destroy a world in your palm, sometimes drastic measures have to be taken to prevent chaos. Even if they have plenty of people willing to use it for "good". Is that a risk worth taking? People fear power. Unfortunately, in the Templar case, it looks like it didn't help.

But I'd argue even letting mages run around more freely can become a major problem. Even educating the mages on how dangerous blood magic is. It seems every mage knows about it, yet, they're all curious about using it. They still dabble in the forbidden arts. What would happen if they were more free? Do you think they would test it even more? I think so.

It's like teaching teenagers sex ed and STD preventions. Does it ever slow their curiousity down? Absolutely not...hormones still rage.

Neither side is right or wrong, IMO. It's a tough subject to argue for either side.

Modifié par deuce985, 17 juin 2012 - 10:38 .

[Direwolf0294]

I sided with the Mages but I can certainly see where the Templars are coming from. Mages are dangerous and they do need some sort of regulatory force to keep them in check, whether that force be the Templars or even just other Mages.

Mages have power that puts them at an advantage over everyone else (ignore game mechanics, in lore a normal warrior or rogue is not going to be able to easily dispatch a mage like they can in the game). Even the most noble mage isn't going to be able to resist the urge to try and use that power to do "good". They'll start out helping people but for most it would quickly desolve into "I'm right, your wrong, I can shoot fire from my hands so do what I say on this matter". Then you have the Mages with less than honorable intentions. The Mages who will happily partake in blood magic, or if they don't will still use their powers to hurt other people. There's also the threat of some untrained Mage who decided not to go to magic school going and getting themselves turned into an abomination. You also have to remember that in the DA universe Mages are born. Not anyone can just learn magic so if you're unlucky enough not the be born a Mage you can't just apply yourself to studying magic and put yourself on equal footing with mages. 

The main problem with the Templars is that you get the zealot hating mages that put a negative spin on Templars and the whole idea of regulating mages. If every Templar was like Thrask or even Gregory then a lot less people would have an issue with the whole keeping mages locked up thing.

Maybe it would be better to just let mages regulate themselves, but if that happened you'd have to factor in the risk of the regulatory body becoming corrupt and abusing their powers. What would you do if the mages who are supposed to be watching the mages start to summon demons and try and take over kingdoms with their powers?

[FaWa]

I too side with mages on 100% of playthroughs. I just don't see how you can justify depression.

[deuce985]

Direwolf0294 wrote...

I sided with the Mages but I can certainly see where the Templars are coming from. Mages are dangerous and they do need some sort of regulatory force to keep them in check, whether that force be the Templars or even just other Mages.

Mages have power that puts them at an advantage over everyone else (ignore game mechanics, in lore a normal warrior or rogue is not going to be able to easily dispatch a mage like they can in the game). Even the most noble mage isn't going to be able to resist the urge to try and use that power to do "good". They'll start out helping people but for most it would quickly desolve into "I'm right, your wrong, I can shoot fire from my hands so do what I say on this matter". Then you have the Mages with less than honorable intentions. The Mages who will happily partake in blood magic, or if they don't will still use their powers to hurt other people. There's also the threat of some untrained Mage who decided not to go to magic school going and getting themselves turned into an abomination. You also have to remember that in the DA universe Mages are born. Not anyone can just learn magic so if you're unlucky enough not the be born a Mage you can't just apply yourself to studying magic and put yourself on equal footing with mages. 

The main problem with the Templars is that you get the zealot hating mages that put a negative spin on Templars and the whole idea of regulating mages. If every Templar was like Thrask or even Gregory then a lot less people would have an issue with the whole keeping mages locked up thing.

Maybe it would be better to just let mages regulate themselves, but if that happened you'd have to factor in the risk of the regulatory body becoming corrupt and abusing their powers. What would you do if the mages who are supposed to be watching the mages start to summon demons and try and take over kingdoms with their powers?

I agree with all this. I do think Templars have a justifcation to monitor them. They should. What they shouldn't be doing is making mages feel cornered all the time. That's where the problems arise for Templars. You have good Templars and terrible ones. Just like mages. Some measures the Templars take is absolutely ridiculous. Making a mage tranquil is worse than death. Not allowing a mage to see his family ever again in the circle? Really? 

Mages should enjoy their life in the Circle. Yet, not many do. It's only natural a rebellion would happen. That's like somebody occupying my country and telling me what to do. Would I take arms up and rebel? You bet I would. Templars need to be less extreme and more open to giving mages enough freedom to make them happy. Yet, they still monitor them.

Modifié par deuce985, 17 juin 2012 - 10:48 .

[berelinde]

I sided with the templars once for the achievement... and then a virus destroyed my computer and I lost the achievement anyway. I consider it divine retribution.

Seriously, I can imagine characters whose devotion to the Chantry was strong enough to make them overlook the abuses. I can also imagine characters who subscribe to the the belief that mages are sub-human and deserve to be treated as such. Those aren't characters I enjoy playing, but my imagination does extend far enough to allow for them.

[Dakota Strider]

If we are only talking about DA2, there seem to be more bad Templars than good ones. However, the Templars are an arm of the Chantry, and I think in nations where the Chantry does well, it improves the lives of people as a whole. Templars were not created to behave as Meredith or Trask,  (forgot the name, the sadist that even Meredith disavowed) and so perhaps need to be reined in a bit. However, because there are blood mages, abominations and even those like Orsino, who will do what he knows is wrong, if it seems to be the last resort, Templars are necessary. There has to be some middle ground, between the way things were at Kirkwall, and the way they are in Tevinter. If mages were capable, or willing to police themselves better, it may be a better solution. But unless something happens to change the Fabric of the Fade, that prevents demons from taking ahold of mages in their sleep, there will always be a need for Templars, or the population as a whole will suffer.

Modifié par Dakota Strider, 18 juin 2012 - 01:08 .

[Karlone123]

All I can say is once a mage goes crazy they are the most dangerous thing.

[LolaLei]

It's such a difficult topic with this whole Mage/Templar thing, the problem is that it's a catch 22 thing because the Templars squeeze too tight, so the Mages start to retaliate causing the Templars to squeeze tighter. Hard to say who started what, but I blame the Chantry for most of it. The whole system needs over hauling really. Thank **** it's not real life eh!

As for who I side with, usually the Mages apart from once or twice for achievements and curiosity.

[schalafi]

I think the greatest cruelty is taking magelings from their parents as soon as their magic begins to show itself. This is the biggest mistake Templars and the Circle make. Wouldn't any child be warped for life just for that alone? The whole system is (deliberateIy, I think,) set up to give the Templars something to justify their existance. and the circle,is like a prison. The children aren't allowed t see their parents, and the parents aren't told where their children are. What could be worse? The game deliberately put some of the worst examples of Mages gone wrong, to advance the story, but only a very few Templars, (Meridith, of course), were shown as really evil, and is extremely slanted toward demonizing the Mages.

[Dakota Strider]

When the Templar in DAO, who was probably the biggest jerk towards mages, turns out to be one of the Templar voices of reason in DA2, you know that the Templars in Kirkwall were clearly far from the norm.



(yes, I am talking fangirl favorite Cullen the Average)

[LolaLei]

Dakota Strider wrote...

When the Templar in DAO, who was probably the biggest jerk towards mages, turns out to be one of the Templar voices of reason in DA2, you know that the Templars in Kirkwall were clearly far from the norm.



(yes, I am talking fangirl favorite Cullen the Average)

Yeah but he's hot LOL!

Still, after being tortured for gawd knows how long I'd probably behave like a total dick as well.

[LolaLei]

schalafi wrote...

I think the greatest cruelty is taking magelings from their parents as soon as their magic begins to show itself. This is the biggest mistake Templars and the Circle make. Wouldn't any child be warped for life just for that alone? The whole system is (deliberateIy, I think,) set up to give the Templars something to justify their existance. and the circle,is like a prison. The children aren't allowed t see their parents, and the parents aren't told where their children are. What could be worse? The game deliberately put some of the worst examples of Mages gone wrong, to advance the story, but only a very few Templars, (Meridith, of course), were shown as really evil, and is extremely slanted toward demonizing the Mages.

Magelings! I like that, it's cute!

I actually felt sorry for all the Mages in DA2, even that one who kills Hawke's mother because he'd only resorted to necromancy in order to bring back his dead wife. He'd clearly gone mad through the anguish of lost love... which is kinda sweet, in a really ****ed up sorta way!

[schalafi]

Dakota Strider wrote...

When the Templar in DAO, who was probably the biggest jerk towards mages, turns out to be one of the Templar voices of reason in DA2, you know that the Templars in Kirkwall were clearly far from the norm.



(yes, I am talking fangirl favorite Cullen the Average)

Cullen and Thrask, were the only Templars in DA2 that weren't portrayed as sadists. The ex-Templar that tried to help escaping magelings, and the recruits were ok, but not really important to the game. Compare that to the hoards of blood mages and abominations there were, and you see the imbalance between them.

Modifié par schalafi, 18 juin 2012 - 01:01 .

[Dave of Canada]

I fully support the Templar as:

• Mages are far too dangerous to be allowed to roam free.
• It involves maintaining a highly valuable resource, as Tranquil offer work and mages can be handed out as healers/soldiers when necessary.
• All my characters are devout Andrastians.
• The Circle system provides mages with a far superior standard of living than everyone else except possibly Nobles.
• Warfare does not become about what nation has the most mages at their disposal.
• Politics does not become a blood mage's dream.
• Templar protect mages from the masses.

Thrask was too soft, he deserved his fate.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 18 juin 2012 - 01:18 .

[LobselVith8]

Chiramu wrote...

Orsino is just as insane as Meredith and during Acts 1 and 2 Meredith is more logical when Orsino is ranting like a madman.

We barely get to know Orsino or Meredith during Acts 1 and 2; in fact, it's only during the last part of Act II that we get any interaction with them, and aside from some bickering, neither one of them is insane or a madman. It's in Act III that both of them become full-blown caricatures.
 

Chiramu wrote...

They just need to write the characters to put forth a sensible fight if they are being oppressed. Looking at how Gandhi used passive aggressive tactics against the British army is a good way to write the mages' plight. At present they are a bunch of morons not thinking about how to rid themselves of their problem effectively.

That's like saying Gandhi's tactics would have worked against a certain enemy in WWII, when that enemy could only be put down by violent force. It's no different with the Qunari; do you think passive aggressive tactics would have stopped the Qunari during the New Exalted Marches, when they tried to conquer Thedas? Do you think passive aggressive tactics would stop the Archdemon from invading Ferelden? Simply because Gandhi's tactics worked in a certain situation doesn't mean it's applicable for every situation.

I think that mages and templars need to be written as three-dimensional characters who have opposing ideological views, as both sides have their reasons for their views.

[BanksHector]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I fully support the Templar as:

• Mages are far too dangerous to be allowed to roam free.
• It involves maintaining a highly valuable resource, as Tranquil offer work and mages can be handed out as healers/soldiers when necessary.
• All my characters are devout Andrastians.
• The Circle system provides mages with a far superior standard of living than everyone else except possibly Nobles.
• Warfare does not become about what nation has the most mages at their disposal.
• Politics does not become a blood mage's dream.
• Templar protect mages from the masses.

^This. I also love the uniforms!

[AndrahilAdrian]

I can see the need for the templars, but I would never side with them, because it necessitates butchering innocent mages for Anders' crime. Even if you agree with the basic aims of the templar order, siding with them in the game requires acts of murder that cannot be justified. If Bioware had framed the situation differently, I might easily have sided with the templars.

[Vormaerin]

Its easy to find reasons for either side. While its popular to say "ooh, mages are just normal folks being oppressed," there is no real reason to believe that. Its just an assumption by some players.

Mages are not ordinary humans with innate abilities. They have senses, perceptions, and experiences completely outside the human norm. They are in regular contact with the Fade on a conscious level, even without visiting it. In the games and in the novels, the incidence of severe dangerous insanity amongst mages is quite high. They also have little opportunity to live ordinary lives. Even if freed from the Circle, how would they live? If they set up as craftsmen/shopkeepers/etc, they will earn the wrath of their competitors for using "demonic" assistance. Much more likely, every noble in the kingdom would want to gather as many as he could keep as "court wizards" and would harass any who refused.

The idea of the Circle is imminently reasonable, IMHO.


The reality, of course, is that Templars tend to recruit entirely inappropriate individuals (Cassandra and Meredith with their family histories of magic induced traumas, for instance). On top of that, they have a severe case of "jail warden syndrome"... the idea that because you have authority over another person, you are both justified and expected to use it. The behavior of many templars is making society less safe rather than more so.

[Iakus]

I've sided with both.

It's pretty clear that the templars had been abusing their authority, and Meredith had clearly gone off the deep en by the end. But it's also pretty clear that a large number of mages had turned maleficar or outright abominations. Crazed as rachni without a queen. By endgame, both sides were portrayed in such a negative light I wanted Hawke to take an extended vacation.

My first playthrough, the "tiebreaker" to side with the mages was Bethany was a Circle mage and I was afraid anulling the Circle would get her killed. My second playthrough she was a Warden and I had no particular reason to care what happened to them.

[joseS95]

I side with Templars, well with the good ones, like Cullen, because the power of the mages needs to be controlled, not with opression but with vigilance otherwise the world can fall in chaos

[Treacherous J Slither]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I fully support the Templar as:

• Mages are far too dangerous to be allowed to roam free.
• It involves maintaining a highly valuable resource, as Tranquil offer work and mages can be handed out as healers/soldiers when necessary.
• All my characters are devout Andrastians.
• The Circle system provides mages with a far superior standard of living than everyone else except possibly Nobles.
• Warfare does not become about what nation has the most mages at their disposal.
• Politics does not become a blood mage's dream.
• Templar protect mages from the masses.

Thrask was too soft, he deserved his fate.

Don't allow mages freedom and they instead will fight for it. Lore wise it's just not smart to ****** these guys off.

Creating Tranquil and using mages as slave labor is wrong. Dead wrong. No matter how you look at it.

How anyone can believe in a "Magic Sky Man" is beyond me.

The Circle does not provide a superior standard of living when your every move is watched and you are not allowed to go outside or even look out of a freaking window. A gilded cage is still a cage.

Warfare is already about that. The mages are always looked to when things get hairy.

No matter how hard the Templars try there will always be apostates and the harder the Templars squeeze, the more secretive and ruthless the mages will become. You can't tell someone is a mage just by looking at them. 

Templars protect mages by taking them away from their families and locking them up in a tower for the rest of their lives. Abusing them and using them as cheap labor. Yeah i'm sure the mages feel very protected.