673 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Look at the Circle Tower condition...the one i show you is the Harrowed mage quarters, there is no privacy, they bathe and doing those stuff openly, male and female, and they are watched 24/7 by armed guards.

The circle condition is exactly like PRISON...not to mention that there is no windows at all...

How do you feel living in that condition?

If you manage to click on all those mages walking around you hear about mages who go missing, and many rumors.

The pro-templar side will never agree with the pro-mage side on the issues of mages or the Chantry controlled Circles. I don't agree with the Chantry controlled Circle myself. As for the Circle Tower, the Magi Origin VO refers to it as a prison, and the mage protagonist can call it a 'prison' and an 'oppressive place.' The narrative allows for us to see the Chantry controlled Circles as the wrong method to deal with magic and mages, but some will agree with the templars and the Chantry.

[LobselVith8]

Mouse was pretending that he was a human mage, and the other demons aided him. The Warden doesn't let Mouse 'in' (which would have resulted in becoming an abomination if protagonist accepted Mouse's suggestion), but he does acknowledge the mage protagonist being 'clever' if he figured out what the test was really about. Mouse does seem to warn the mage protagonist during his transformation into a Pride Demon, and comes across as interesting because he isn't one-dimensional.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 08 juillet 2012 - 08:21 .

[MisterJB]

And? During an Harrowing, the mage must face a demon and survive without becoming an Abomination, it is known. I admit I didn't recall Alistair's history but the principle applies.

They are not being set up to fail, they are being presented a challenge. If the templars just wanted mages dead, there would be much less complicated ways of accomplishing this that need not involve demons.
The point is to weed out the weak willed mages that are likely to become Abominations anyway.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Nizaris is in full conspiracy mode.
Wow.
Funny stuff.
Better than some Area51, Alien abduction,CIA water experiments and Elvis sightings.

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Nizaris is in full conspiracy mode.
Wow.
Funny stuff.
Better than some Area51, Alien abduction,CIA water experiments and Elvis sightings.

It's funny that she has a different opinion than you, or that she doesn't think the Harrowing is ideal? People have argued its torture in the past, and debated whether it serves any real purpose. The whole point boils down to the fact that people have strong feelings on both sides of the debate. The games invite us to form opinions, and serve to motivate us to one side or the other.

I couldn't side with the templars simply because the story threw one-dimensional mage lunatics at me, and I saw no reason to side with Meredith and murder hundreds of men, women, and children to appease a hypothetical mob for an act Anders alone committed. I clearly have different views than you do, but we aren't expected to reach the same conclusions. People are expected to form their own opinions on the schism between mages and templars, and the different aspects of both groups, but not everyone is going to agree. It's expected that people will disagree.

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

And? During an Harrowing, the mage must face a demon and survive without becoming an Abomination, it is known. I admit I didn't recall Alistair's history but the principle applies.

They are not being set up to fail, they are being presented a challenge. If the templars just wanted mages dead, there would be much less complicated ways of accomplishing this that need not involve demons.
The point is to weed out the weak willed mages that are likely to become Abominations anyway.

Do I think Mages are set up to fail the Harrowing in general?  No, but I do regard the practice as hypocritical at best.  It the process worked as advertised, then there would be no reason to let a harrowed mage (who has proven their ability to stand up to a demon under the worst conditions) have a normal life.  If it doesn't, then it amounts to human experimentation with no actual beneficial effect.  Either way the Templars are creating what they say they most fear.

That said, I think a strong case can be made for the case of the (future) Warden and definately in the case of Bethany, that they WERE set up to fail.  In the Warden's harrowing, he faces not one demon but three (and a spirit of Valor that will kill him or her to save him or her).  Any one of these demons should have been test enough.    Also the fact that the future Warden is a known associate of Jowan's and Jowan is scheduled to be tranquiled as a suspected bloodmage along with the suprise you survived all indicates to me that this was a set up.  In Bethany's case it's even clearer.  They are taking an Apostate Mage with no circle training (that they know of), still stress out over being captured and then throwing her at a demon in a place where the veil is already thin.  Even Bethany admits the Templars "probably" set her up to fail.

-Polaris

[MisterJB]

Nizaris1 wrote...
Harrowing is a TEST for you, and those demons working as your testers. They have given meals for doing their job. What happen now is the Templars set you up to fail. It is a systematic genocide. They make it up look like you failed the Harrowing and so they can kill you and wash their hands.

If the templars wanted to commit genocide, they could. There would be no need to wash their hands; the Divine would just have to claim all magic must be destroyed and not a single person would rise for the mages.

But here is the thing, mages are a valuable resource. They are one of the reasons qunari and darkspawn have yet to convert/destroy the entire population of Thedas.
You don't destroy a valuable resource. You find a way of harnessing and control it. The Harrowing is part of that.
Yes, the chantry view mages as nuclear power. It's awful but there really is no other solution.

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
Do I think Mages are set up to fail the Harrowing in general?  No, but I do regard the practice as hypocritical at best.  It the process worked as advertised, then there would be no reason to let a harrowed mage (who has proven their ability to stand up to a demon under the worst conditions) have a normal life.  If it doesn't, then it amounts to human experimentation with no actual beneficial effect.  Either way the Templars are creating what they say they most fear.

Well, I question the effectiveness of the Harrowing as well since we know for sure Harrowed Mages who became Abominations. However, mages are not dangerous simply because they can be possessed more easily.
The Harrowing simply proves that mage is capable of resisting possession, it doesn't reveal anything about the worth of that individual's character. The mage could still wish to create another Tevinter. 

Any one of these demons should have been test enough.

Would it? It seemed to me Rage and Mouse served to test different aspects. Strenght and Intelligence respectivelly.

[MisterJB]

Nizaris1 wrote...
Yeah right, they only sent 7 mages to Ostagar and one of them is a Tranquil, that is what Duncan, Irving and Gregoir arguing about.

That small camp is by no means an indicator of the real numbers of the royal army. Unless it is specifically said only 7 went, more could have gone.

then she making a noise when Uldred suggesting using magic

What she said was "We will not entrust lives to your spells, mage. Save them for the Darkspawn."
Thus, what she didn't want was not that mages use no magic but that they reserve their destructive spells to the darkspawn. She didn't trust them to light the beacon.

....What happen to Ostagar? Darkspawn win.
what if the are more 20 mages sent to Ostagar, they all can fireballed darkspawns and make Storm of the Century, problem solved.
It is because of lack of dedication by the Chantry, who have interest in the matter, led everyone to doom.

Are you honestly suggesting the sole reason Ferelden lost at Ostagar was because of a lack of mages? Not, you know, Cailan's rush to meet the Spawn in the field without the entirety of Ferelden at his back; the unexpected massive numbers of the enemy; Loghain's betrayal?
C'mon, really?

Duncan even talk about it if you talk with him in the Tower, Duncan said the Chantry FEAR the Mages no longer want to be under Chantry control, Chantry also blame mages for bringing darkspawn in the world. Duncan repeatedly say that darkspawn threat is GREATER than blood mages and abomination.

The Chantry has used mages in the past and will continue doing so. Read a bit on the Exhalted March on the Qunari.
In fact, if Asunder is to be believed, the mages in the White Spire are told constantly how they are only alive because they are useful.

The Tranquil if you talk to him say, they made enchantment, that is how the Circle got money. Senior Torrent say Lucrocians only care about making money. The tranquils have become slaves for the Capitalist Templar/Chantry. They need more Tranquils.

They put fear on mages themselves and so they themselves choose the Rite of Tranquility. There you have mages like Keili and Owain. The strong student are set up to failed the Harrowing.

Warning mages that they might die during their Harrowing is not condicioning them.
And no one is set up to fail the Harrowing.

[Plaintiff]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Warm food, beds, clothing and education = animals?

Compared to homeless commoners which are slain and raped by noblemen, left to die by disease and famine with no education unless they join the Chantry or are born into nobility?

Poor mages.

Mages are slain and raped by templars so they don't have any advantage over the peasantry in that regard. Isolation from society may help them when it comes to avoiding disease, but there's nothing to support the suggestion that they fare better in a famine than anyone else. In fact, there is nothing at all to support the idea that the peasants suffer disproportionately more than the mages do.

But even if they do, being a victim of circumstance is not comparable to being actively imprisoned by others. A gilded cage is still a cage. All the luxuries in the world do not make up for the trauma of being torn from your family, or losing your own children in turn. They do not make up for losing the right to choose your career. They do not make up for being constantly watched by men who are trained to kill you. They do not make up for having to live with the constant threat of beating or rape. They do not make up for knowing you could be executed without warning for being arbitrarily deemed "unfit" for testing. They do not make up for having to watch the aforementioned abuse or execution happen to any friends you might have made in the Circle.

"The threat of death dangles over my head every minute of my life, and everyone I care about is dropping dead around me, but that's okay because I have plenty of books to read!"

Yeah, no. Expecting mages to feel anything other than resentment is ridiculous. 

Other people in Thedas might have it worse. So what? That does not invalidate the legitimacy of the claim that mages are treated unfairly. Does the existence of child militias in third world countries lessen the suffering of abused children in the United States? Should the LGBT Rights movement quit campaigning because LGBT individuals in other countries are even worse off than them?

Modifié par Plaintiff, 09 juillet 2012 - 03:30 .

[Dave of Canada]

Nizaris1 wrote...

There is no indication saying the peasants in Thedas have no education at all.

Except for the people who cannot read and general ignorance that most people have? it's based off medieval society and there's no schools or wandering scholars which offer educations to the average farmer--which in the modern world hadn't occured until the 19th century.

The only educations we've heard of in Thedas exists within Circles, scholars hired by nobility to teach their children and the Chantry which offers academic education to all who come under their wing--as templar, priest or affirmed.

The Chantry--unlike Christianity in the approximate era--hasn't started teaching everyone to understand legal documents yet, hell it barely even allows theology that disagrees with it's values.

If you go to Denerim, there are books everywhere, the Wonder of Thedas also have books.

Just wandered around Denerim, the only books I've found were located in places where educated people or people of influence resided--nobility, spies and apostates. 

even **** House have books....

Brothels tend to attract wealthy patrons, the average street thug or commoner won't have enough money for anyone. The Blooming Rose and The Pearl are established in fancier locations and the people you see within are well-dressed or work in trades which aquire them a minor fortune, such as Casillion's thugs or Isabela.

Or you've got the commoner which happens to owe a lot of money, such as Gamlen--which is why the loan sharks are after them.

If you go to Redcliff, the cottage near the mill have books, in Bevin house also have books.

Can't go look since my only 360 save file is post-Ostagar and can't go into Redcliffe yet without triggering the "SAVE US" scene.

There are books everywhere where you can update your codex. meaning the peasants  in Thedas are well educated.

Most codex entries in human areas are found in the Chantry, in nobility homes (Eamon's estate, Eamon's castle, Hightown) or the Circle. True--there's codex entries found in random areas--though they're mostly Chantry scripture or official documents.

Documents outside of these areas tend to either be Dalish storybooks, notes from the upper dwarven castes, chantry scripture, apostates talking about how awesome they are or officials (such as Meredith) messaging each other.

You never play Mage Origin? Or you don't understand a bit about what is going on

I've played the mage origin plenty, there's no feeding at all. The only feeding ever mentioned is when a mage fails the Harrowing by either submiting themselves to Mouse, being tricked by Mouse or failing to defend themselves from Rage and they share the scraps.

Which is why the Templar is doing the Harrowing in the first place, to see if you're going to win. They don't want to see you die, it's just a cruel reality.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 09 juillet 2012 - 04:23 .

[Dave of Canada]

dragonflight288 wrote...

It's not like the templars do anything to help emotionally and mentally prepare mages for the Harrowing, which is kept secret from all apprentices. Apprentices go in, completely ignorant on what they're expected to do, UNTIL the very moment where it's go in, die, or become tranquil.

That's kind of the point, though. You're not prepared, just like what would occur if you were attacked by a demon in any other circumstance. Throwing a prepared mage into the fire teaches nothing, as being prepared or unprepared matters significantly when the demon tries to possess you.

Nizaris1 wrote...

According to Alistair who was in a harrowing, Templars put demons in an apprentice.

 

Never heard this supposed line.

How could Alistair--who hadn't even completed his training--participate in a Harrowing? Did Cullen skip that bit when training?

According to Mouse, he work with the Templar, he took part in making apprentices failed. he help YOU because YOU are different from others (as the story demanded) 

Mouse says no such thing, he says he worked with Rage. Rage =/= Templar.

- Spirit of valor will kill you if you are not worthy(he admit helping YOU in one of dialogue path "I am helping you if you realize it or not")

Spirits are blindly attached to one concept, this isn't new. When you're the spirit of VALOR, of course he'd place your life in danger. Any spirit is lawfully idiotic to their concept, it's their entire purpose--didn't you miss the memo when Justice and Vengeance are two sides of the same coin?

Has nothing to do with the Templar, the spirit doesn't even prey upon you unless you ask for it's help and accept it's challenge.

- Sloth may kill you if you are not strong or wise(If you choose to be diplomatic he said "well, this become more and more promising") 

What's this got to do with the Templar again? Sloth wasn't part of the Harrowing, he was only there and attacks you if provoked. You don't even need to do his challenge.

Mouse watched that you can beat these two spirit/deomon either with your might (magic/willpower) or diplomatically, that make you different. Mouse act as an assessment officer in Harrowing. 

Or perhaps he was trying to see if the mage was going to be stupid and fall for his disguise--and by association--fail the Harrowing, he decided to test you in a different way than the others but that doesn't mean he was being "nice" to you in anyway.

The other mages fell for his disguise and was teamed up by him and Rage, you're only incapable of failing because you're the protagonist--it doesn't stop the test from being what it is and the many different ways the player would've failed.

Clearly you don't understand a bit about Mage-Origin-Harrowing, you just play and don't take a note on everything. 

I'm impressed by how far you look into demonising Templar, though I'm not surprised at this point.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 09 juillet 2012 - 04:59 .

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

That small camp is by no means an indicator of the real numbers of the royal army. Unless it is specifically said only 7 went, more could have gone.

Duncan specifically stated in the Magi Origin that only seven mages were permitted to fight at Ostagar.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 09 juillet 2012 - 04:51 .

[LobselVith8]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Never heard this supposed line.

It's a line Alistair tells The Warden at camp, explaining the experience as the reason why he no longer wanted to become a templar. She didn't survive the experience. Alistair does phrase it as putting a demon in the female mage.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 09 juillet 2012 - 04:59 .

[Dave of Canada]

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...

It the process worked as advertised, then there would be no reason to let a harrowed mage (who has proven their ability to stand up to a demon under the worst conditions) have a normal life.[/quote]

Passing the Harrowing doesn't guarantee repeated success or the mage won't abuse their powers.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Nizaris is in full conspiracy mode. 
Wow. 
Funny stuff.
Better than some Area51, Alien abduction,CIA water experiments and Elvis sightings.[/quote] 

Considering their former posts about how DA3 will be about the New World Order, how Anders has the All-Seeing Eye on his robes and saying that Templar represents the US and mages represent muslims... it's not that surprising.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

But here is the thing, mages are a valuable resource. They are one of the reasons qunari and darkspawn have yet to convert/destroy the entire population of Thedas.
You don't destroy a valuable resource. You find a way of harnessing and control it. The Harrowing is part of that.
Yes, the chantry view mages as nuclear power. It's awful but there really is no other solution.[/quote] 

Hell, I'd assume other people would come into the picture to try and harness the strength of mages if the Templar and the Chantry didn't exist to withhold mages from the public. I'd imagine Monarchs starting their own academy for training mages into nothing but war-hounds to be used in their war efforts.

Mage freedom and equality is a pipe dream.

[quote]Nizaris1 wrote...

Yeah right, they only sent 7 mages to Ostagar and one of them is a Tranquil, that is what Duncan, Irving and Gregoir arguing about. And then the Gran Cleric harrasing Mages using her pet boy Alistair...then she making a noise when Uldred suggesting using magic....What happen to Ostagar? Darkspawn win.[/quote]

Considering Duncan going around in every possible "Warden" location is considered canon, it means Duncan--under Cailan's orders--approached the Circle for more mages--whether or not you were a mage. And mages hardly altered the outcome of Ostagar, Cailan's stupidity was responsible.

[quote]
Duncan even talk about it if you talk with him in the Tower, Duncan said the Chantry FEAR the Mages no longer want to be under Chantry control,[/quote]

Of course the Chantry fears that, almost everyone does.

[quote]Chantry also blame mages for bringing darkspawn in the world.[/quote]

Not the Chantry, everyone except for some pockets of mages. Anders used to be one who didn't believe it until Legacy proved him wrong.

[quote]Duncan repeatedly say that darkspawn threat is GREATER than blood mages and abomination.[/quote]

Try convincing two opposing sides to align for a hypothetical common threat which you don't have evidence is any actual threat with your only evidence being "I just know".

I'll wait.

[quote]He also said he want TWO MAGES for every contingent, 7 is not enough and he demand more. [/quote]

And that's why he went to the Circle.

[quote]
what if the are more 20 mages sent to Ostagar, they all can fireballed darkspawns and make Storm of the Century, problem solved.[/quote]

Hell no. Cailan's flank barely lasted the time it took the Warden to climb up Ishal, twenty mages wouldn't have changed anything when they were being attacked from behind and the Darkspawn force was easily ten times larger than expected.

If Loghain's entire army wouldn't have made a difference, twenty mages would be laughable.

[quote]
The Tranquil if you talk to him say, they made enchantment, that is how the Circle got money. Senior Torrent say Lucrocians only care about making money. The tranquils have become slaves for the Capitalist Templar/Chantry. They need more Tranquils.  [/quote]

Tranquil have free will, they work for the Circle of their own accord--they aren't slaves at all, they're fully allowed to leave and start their own business or have a family if they desired such. Besides, the Tranquil who do profit the Circle towers help feed and keep the mages within warm and support their education.

Lucrosians keep their own money, it's just a fraternity devoted to self profit using their abilities--none of it goes to the "capitalist" Templar (lol).

[quote]
They put fear on mages themselves and so they themselves choose the Rite of Tranquility. There you have mages like Keili and Owain. The strong student are set up to failed the Harrowing. [/quote]

Who are you to judge their decisions they made for themselves?

[quote]
From where they got money to trade lyrium with the dwarves? From the Tranquils, it is not from charity. [/quote]

*GASP* establishments need money to be sustained?!

[dragonflight288]

That small camp is by no means an indicator of the real numbers of the royal army. Unless it is specifically said only 7 went, more could have gone.

If you play the Mage Origin, you walk in on Gregoire and Irving arguing, and Gregoire is saying that the circle sent its best mages there, and specifically said 7. He thought that seven mages was too much.

[DPSSOC]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Mouse says no such thing, he says he worked with Rage. Rage =/= Templar.

They all work with the Templar, Mouse involved in the set up to make you failed.

 
Simple question, how?  How did the Templars not only contact 3 demons and a spirit but convince them to go along with this scheme?  I'd accept that the Templars intentionally called in 3 demons rather than just 1 in order to stack the deck against you, but what you're talking about requires a level of planning and coordination that 1) Rage demons aren't capable of and 2) has never been so much as hinted at being possible.