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[LobselVith8]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Tranquil have free will, they work for the Circle of their own accord--they aren't slaves at all

They are stripped of their emotions, and the two cases of mages reverting back has them beg to be killed over being made tranquil again. I don't see how their free will remains - from Owain cleaning during an abomination outbreak to Alrik's dialogue to Ella, there's a clear indication that they aren't functioning properly. Not to mention what one female tranquil says to her former lover about how Alrik commands her now.

[Plaintiff]

Dave of Canada wrote...

That's kind of the point, though. You're not prepared, just like what would occur if you were attacked by a demon in any other circumstance. Throwing a prepared mage into the fire teaches nothing, as being prepared or unprepared matters significantly when the demon tries to possess you..

Lots of things happen when people aren't prepared for them. Housefires, traffic accidents, heart attacks, physical and sexual assault. Guess we shouldn't bother trying to teach people how to deal with any of those either. If they don't instinctively know to defend themselves, then they were just going to be worthless to society anyway, right?

The Harrowing is not intended to "teach" anything, or it shouldn't be. It is a final test before graduation as a fully-fledged mage. Teaching is what happens before a final test. The purpose of the Harrowing should be to determine whether or not the mage's education was successful, and in that capacity it fails spectacularly.

The mages have not actually been taught how to combat demons, so the Harrowing is not an indicator of a mage's skill, power or intelligence. It's not an indicator of anything at all. Mages that pass the Harrowing are still exactly as likely to get possessed as they ever were, their chances have not improved by an iota. Wynne was a senior enchanter and she still fell prey to demonic deception, despite also having a benevolent spirit apparently protecting her.

If the Circle wants its students to fight off demons, it should actually teach them how to fight off demons, just like a school that wants its children to be able to read should actually teach them how to read. It's obviously capable of doing so, since the teachers had to fight off a demon in the first place to qualify for their positions. Compare notes, develop techniques, test them, pass them on to the next generation. It's not rocket science.

As it is, mages pass the Harrowing not through learned skill or natural talent, but by sheer dumb luck. Or they get executed. Or worse, they get possessed by a demon strong enough to retain human form, and then you have a powerful abomination like Uldred wandering the halls of the Circle, and no one is any the wiser.

The Harrowing is complete rubbish. Demon attacks may occur unexpectedly, but refusing to give mages the required skills to defend themselves isn't going to help matters.

[Dave of Canada]

Nizaris1 wrote...

IF a darkspawn attacking her, then a mage use magic to kill it, doesn't that relying on mage spell to save her life?

Wow, you're taking one line and flinging into an entirely different area.

The mages are being used for fighting, not for lighting torches at a critical moment--she'd rather devote all resources into fighting and keep the mages in a spot where they can't possibly betray and abandon the war effort to escape and screw us all.

One of the reason, if there are 100 mages there, Loghain have no chance for betrayal

An Orge rushing at Cailan, one mage Force Field Cailan, other mage Winter Grasp the orge, other mages perma freeze the orge, problem solved

Group of darkspawn charging the firt line, one mage Virulent Walking bomb them, other mages Mass Paralyze them, other one fireballed them, all exploded, problem solves

No chance for Loghain betrayal

... Ostagar wasn't going to be won that easy, you're being way too idealistic--to the point where I question whether you saw the same Ostagar that I did. The Darkspawn horde was far larger than expected, it was supposed to be a large incursion--not a full Blight, their entire plan hinged on flanking the Darkspawn with Loghain's group.

Except that was impossible, the horde was big enough that despite Cailan's entire group being decimated the entire horde hadn't even left the forest yet--Loghain would've had to charge directly into the middle of the horde and end up being flanked himself.

All the while, the darkspawn had access past the wall itself through the tunnels underneath the Tower of Ishal and would've easily overwhelmed the rangers / catapults and mages. Twenty or so mages would've only added more deaths to the list of fallen, any additional forces would.

And let's not forget that Darkspawn have mages themselves, shall we?

So mages are Chantry slaves? They are used whenever the Chantry want?

Same as any soldier or commoner who get conscripted.

When they are useful, they are expandable, when not, they Tranquilize them or kill them all...

They don't make all mages tranquil or dead because it's fun, there's a reason they don't simply slaughter mages when they're born--they're useful, they're a resource and whoever controls the mages ultimately controls Thedas should worse come to worse.

Circle Mages are like COWS, the Templar milked them, then slaughter them when needed.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 09 juillet 2012 - 05:18 .

[dragonflight288]

As it is, mages pass the Harrowing not through learned skill or natural talent, but by sheer dumb luck. Or they get executed. Or worse, they get possessed by a demon strong enough to retain human form, and then you have a powerful abomination like Uldred wandering the halls of the Circle, and no one is any the wiser.

To be completely fair, if you question Nial in the Fade (the most aggravating part of the game to me. It just dragged on even more than the Deep Roads, at least to me) he mentions that Uldred wasn't an abomination before the meeting, but had apparently dabbled in demonology. He summoned demons when it became obvious that no one was listening to his arguments, let loose a signal to the blood mages to attack. He summoned the demons and was overwhelmed by a Pride Demon, losing himself in the process.

All according to Nial.

EDIT: fixed some typos.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 09 juillet 2012 - 05:19 .

[Dave of Canada]

Nizaris1 wrote...

The Spirit wear full TEMPLAR ARMOR

So does Justice--one of the greatest haters of Templar--it's only a model.

he is a part of your test, how you deal with him, determine your battle with the Rage Demon. either you manage to persuade him to teach Mouse bear form or you fight the Rage demon ALONE

You persuade him to teach Mouse of your own accord, Mouse--at least at the point in time to your character's knowledge--isn't part of your test.

The mage involves himself with Sloth, tells him to teach Mouse how to turn into bear and takes a risk by wagering with Sloth because he or she wants to, not because the Templar holding a sword at your throat said "TEACH MOUSE HOW TO BE A BEAR" or "DISCUSS RIDDLES WITH SLOTH".

They all work with the Templar, Mouse involved in the set up to make you failed.

Mouse isn't "involved" with the Templar, he only feasts on mages with rage because that's what demons do.

That is HIS JOB, he is the OVERSEER for your Harrowing.

... or he's a demon.

They don't care about overseering your Harrowing, the Templar only care if you pass or fail.

How the Templar know you pass or you failed?

When you're not wearing a flesh suit or they notice you're not yourself, they can also sense demons.

And let's not forget they've been trained and doing this for decades.

You only defeat one demon, Rage Demon, Mouse is Pride demon, he left you then you pass the Harrowing. he can attack you if he want to if he really a wild demon who want to consume you. But no, he doing his job, and you have proven you are special, so he left, and you pass.

Becau-

Templar and Chantry are demon in angel disguise.

Wow. Never mind.

[Plaintiff]

Dave of Canada wrote...
Tranquil have free will, they work for the Circle of their own accord--they aren't slaves at all, they're fully allowed to leave and start their own business or have a family if they desired such.

You have to be trolling.

What you just posited would require them to desire anything in the first place, and Tranquil are stripped of all desires along with every other emotion when they are mind-raped. "Free will" is meaningless to a Tranquil, they don't possess a capacity to feel, let alone make independent choices. They don't have the option of disobedience because they lack the emotional and ciritical faculties required to question any orders they might be given, which is something even very small children possess.

This is constantly reinforced over and over again in both games:
 
In DA:O, when Owain is deprived of instruction, he reverts to his prime directive; cleaning the storeroom. Whatever action he takes to preserve his own life can be attributed to animal instinct. Once he is no longer in immediate physical danger, he returns to his set tasks. The fact that other floors of the tower are crawling with abominations is of no concern to him, because he cannot feel concern. The fact that the current crisis renders his tasks utterly pointless never crosses his mind. The idea that the situation could be improved by taking additional action (such as calling out to Wynne) never even occurs to him.

In DA2, it is further made clear that tranquil can even be ordered to engage in sexual acts. If ever there was a time for them to exercise the free will you claim they possess, surely it would be when a templar demands to be sucked off. When Karl is temporarily revived, he desperately begs for death. When he is Tranquil, he doesn't even show any signs of  even remembering what he said less than a minute prior. If Karl desires death, why did he not kill himself once he was made Tranquil? If they truly have free will, then they would be more than capable of committing suicide if they wished to. But they don't wish to commit suicide. They don't wish to do anything.

Even if they had the freedom to leave, which they don't, Tranquil skills of enchantment are extremely valuable to the Circle and the Chantry, they would be forbidden from leaving on that basis alone.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 09 juillet 2012 - 06:21 .

[Plaintiff]

dragonflight288 wrote...

As it is, mages pass the Harrowing not through learned skill or natural talent, but by sheer dumb luck. Or they get executed. Or worse, they get possessed by a demon strong enough to retain human form, and then you have a powerful abomination like Uldred wandering the halls of the Circle, and no one is any the wiser.

To be completely fair, if you question Nial in the Fade (the most aggravating part of the game to me. It just dragged on even more than the Deep Roads, at least to me) he mentions that Uldred wasn't an abomination before the meeting, but had apparently dabbled in demonology. He summoned demons when it became obvious that no one was listening to his arguments, let loose a signal to the blood mages to attack. He summoned the demons and was overwhelmed by a Pride Demon, losing himself in the process.

All according to Nial.

EDIT: fixed some typos.

That's not what I mean. Uldred may not have become possessed at his Harrowing, but I wasn't meaning to infer that he necessarily was. The details of his individual case aren't particularly relevent.

The fact is that very powerful demons are capable of retaining the form of the human they possess, and a sufficiently powerful demon could take control of a mage during their Harrowing, and cause it to appear for all intents and purposes as though said mage had passed with flying colours. In fact, given what we know about Demons and mages, it seems like this should happen fairly often.

[Dave of Canada]

Plaintiff wrote...

Mages are slain and raped by templars so they don't have any advantage over the peasantry in that regard.

But under normal circumstances, those Templar have to answer to their superiors. The Chantry doesn't approve of Templar abusing their assets, the Grand Cleric or Knight-Commander should step in and stop them from doing so and remove them from rank.

While under normal circumstances, nobility gets a slap on the wrist by their superiors or just pays off the guard and nothing happens. The Alienage is culled a few times and nothing happens to the people involved, people's homes can be burned and no authority steps in and nobility can rape women and get away with it because they control the wages of everyone who'd investigate.

Isolation from society may help them when it comes to avoiding disease, but there's nothing to support the suggestion that they fare better in a famine than anyone else. In fact, there is nothing at all to support the idea that the peasants suffer disproportionately more than the mages do.

Considering any food going to the Circle would probably be shared with the Templar and how the Chantry "controls" the people, the nobility and even the Monarchs themselves, I'd assume they have fairly good influence in food trade should a famine ever occur.

Maybe they don't give food to mages, though I doubt they'd leave their greatest asset starve and possibly die / refuse to work for them. Rebellions are caused over famine and we know the Chantry has been actively trying to prevent that for a long time.

But even if they do, being a victim of circumstance is not comparable to being actively imprisoned by others. A gilded cage is still a cage. All the luxuries in the world do not make up for the trauma of being torn from your family, or losing your own children in turn.

Though it's important to note that every nation--except for Rivain--take mages away from family and their children, though. While Tevinter is viewed as a nation of free mages, their control of children is notable because perhaps it shows that even they fear the potential of personal attachments and how they influence a mage (they even kept track of any mage lineages).

Perhaps the luxaries don't make up for it to some, though.

They do not make up for losing the right to choose your career.

Well, it's not like being outside offers many different alternatives. Perhaps mages would create more job opportunities for themselves such as healers and the like, though that's assuming the commoners accept them and don't simply burn down their places (like they do with elves who try to be something other than a gutter rat).

Least inside they're given safety and they--as Lucrosians show--can have many different jobs through affiliates, making money and buying things for themselves.

They do not make up for being constantly watched by men who are trained to kill you.

Shouldn't really bother them if they're not doing anything "wrong" at the time, I doubt Irving / Finn / Wynne and other mages like them fear the Templar once they've "accepted" their fate. Same reason the commoners wouldn't fear the guard or Orlesians wouldn't fear the Chevaliers.

They do not make up for having to live with the constant threat of beating or rape.

Back to first point.

They do not make up for knowing you could be executed without warning for being arbitrarily deemed "unfit" for testing.

During normal circumstances, they don't execute the mage--they make them tranquil after evidence has been presented to the First Enchanter. Burden of proof being on the Templar is a luxuary for the mages, though they probably don't understand it.

Yeah, no. Expecting mages to feel anything other than resentment is ridiculous.

I don't expect them to feel happy about their predicament, though to say that mages are being treated horribly isn't that great of an excuse when everybody else is treated worse. I assume a large section of mages would go "what the hell is this ****" when they come out and see the world and realise they were treated better inside the Circle.

Some would probably see it as a viable excuse to try and forge something like Tevinter 2.

Other people in Thedas might have it worse. So what? That does not invalidate the legitimacy of the claim that mages are treated unfairly... *child militias and lgtb*

Kind of does. Remove the whole "human rights" and modern view of ethics and morals and suddenly the idea of everyone being treated equally would get you laughed at, there's only two roles in this case: Those worst off than you and those better off than you.

When the commoner sees the mage's fine silk robes and their quarters, they wouldn't understand the mage's complaints because they see the mage lifestyle as something superior to theirs--which invalidates their complaint because "they're acting spoiled", the commoner has no heed for the restrictions which the mage has imposed on him.

Which is why so many find Templar preferable to simply living their current lifestyle, they recieve similar benefits despite all the restrictions they themselves have imposed on them--including the lyrium addiction and having difficulty to have any family.

[Plaintiff]

Dave of Canada wrote...
But under normal circumstances, those Templar have to answer to their superiors.

Do they? From what (admittedly little) we've seen, Chantry oversight isn't exactly hands-on, and it's known that recruitment/promotion priority is given to the "most faithful" individuals, not the most trustworthy or most qualified.

But the fact that the Chantry govern the Templars in the first place is a fundamental flaw of the system anyway.

During normal circumstances, they don't execute the mage--they make them tranquil after evidence has been presented to the First Enchanter.

Not much of a difference, surely. Being made tranquil rips your personality and emotions away. Anything that made you you is gone, all that's left is a flesh-golem bearing your name.

Kind of does. Remove the whole "human rights" and modern view of ethics and morals and suddenly the idea of everyone being treated equally would get you laughed at, there's only two roles in this case: Those worst off than you and those better off than you.

I don't see why we need to remove the "modern view". Medieval technology doesn't justify or necessitate medieval morals. There's no reason why Thedas couldn't have more modern views. In some ways Thedas is very modern. Women can serve in war, own property and have titles, and gay couples are relatively well accepted even by our own standards. Clearly they have some concept of human rights.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 09 juillet 2012 - 09:42 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Nizaris1 wrote...
There are no weak willed or strong willed, even a low self esteem person with right motivational treatment and some training will become a strong character person. In this case, they don't want you to be strong.

The Harrowing clearly show those demons are working with the Templar, only you don't realized it.

See, when you enter the Fade, the first "person" you meet is Mouse. Then
"Spirit of Valor. Then Sloth. And the last one is Rage demon. They are
not living there, they are your testers. Harrowing is a TEST for you,
and those demons working as your testers. They have given meals for
doing their job. What happen now is the Templars set you up to fail. It
is a systematic genocide. They make it up look like you failed the
Harrowing and so they can kill you and wash their hands.

Really? Your conspiracy theopries stopepd being funny several years ago. To you everything is proof of the evil of the cricles. Everything.

Mages have small bathtubs? EEEVIL. Tempars clealry give them small ones just to torture them!!!!
...
Have you any idea just how silly you come across? Seriously? Templars controling demons?

Trainging to resist possesion? How exactly do you go about that? There are different demons with different ways of gettingto you and ultimatively the battle is internal - It's a spiritual/mental thing.
You can't really "teach" that.

[MisterJB]

Nizaris1 wrote...
It is NOT just a model, Bioware can use other models if they want to.

It's just a model.

if you don't persuade the Sloth to teach the Mouse the bear form, YOU FAILED in that test out of being ARROGANT. And you will fought the Rage Demon with all those wisps attacking you ALONE...Mouse can't tanking for you...and you only have what? Winter Grasp? Healing? You dead...FAILED

Do you want me take a screenshot of my mage defeating the Rage Demon by himself without Mouse tanking? Because I'll do it.
You can have the first level ability of any school of magic. For instance, Life Drain is quite useful.

How those demons be there in the first place?

They know templars send apprentices to that part of the Fade. They have obviously been doing that for a long time.
And no, that doesn't indicate templars work with demons. Duncan sends Warden Recruits to places where you can find darkspawn to see if the recruits can fight them. Are the Grey Warden working Darkspawn as well? 

he's a demon, working with templar

The Templar only care to slit your throat

The purpose of the Harrowing is not to kill mages which would be as stupid as finding oil and set it all ablaze. The point is to weed out those too weak to defend themselves from demons.

Templars are men, some are bad and kill mages with glee, others are good believe mages and templars should unite against demons.

yet there are a lot of possessed Templar in Broken Circle...lol

The Grey Wardens were overwhelmed at Ostagar. Do you deny them their experience or abilities too?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Plaintiff wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Warm food, beds, clothing and education = animals?

Compared to homeless commoners which are slain and raped by noblemen, left to die by disease and famine with no education unless they join the Chantry or are born into nobility?

Poor mages.

Mages are slain and raped by templars so they don't have any advantage over the peasantry in that regard. Isolation from society may help them when it comes to avoiding disease, but there's nothing to support the suggestion that they fare better in a famine than anyone else. In fact, there is nothing at all to support the idea that the peasants suffer disproportionately more than the mages do.

Again with this?
Geez, you people take a few cases of abuse and infalte them to epic proportions and showe them in everyones fae as some kind of proof.
Well it is proof - proof of how narrow-sighted you are, how unable you are to see hte bigger picture and proper context.

TheDas is a midel-ages themed society. And not a very nice one at that. Abuse of power and inefficencies are not exclusive to the chantry or the Cricels.
Oversight system like we have today do not exist. Cammeras do not exist. Phoens do not exist. The bill of human right does not exist. Most of the thing you take for granted don't exist.

You think if you replace templars with mages there will be less abuse of power? No it won't. Mages are humans too and just as there are templars who abuse power, so there will be mages who do so.
You won't have a perfect system, but that's exactly what you think you'll get.

Suppose mages run the Mage Circle and mages go around raping women and killing people...and then cover it all up. Prime reason to dissolve the New Mage Circle now?

Other people in Thedas might have it worse. So what? That does not invalidate the legitimacy of the claim that mages are treated unfairly.

Mages aren't treated that unfarely.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Nizaris1 wrote...

The Chantry is RICH, they control lyrium trade with the dwarves, they use Tranquils to make money by enchantment, they can pay for you very first Chanter Board quest....but...

the revered mother want to rob you in the first time you meet her in Lothering...asking for a tithe...if you refuse she say you are bad for not giving money for the Maker...

Elder Miriam have short supply of health poultices, there are a lot in the Chantry armoir, and Ser bryant have the key...

You guys realize that or not?

The US is rich. I'm sure then something like Katrina happens or when some huge disaster hits another part of the world (like a tsunami), they will have everyone fed, clothed and with a roof over their head in a matter of hours.

Yes, taking care of refugees is always so easy....as our history proves.


Seriously. Do you ever step out of your house and look at the wrold? Do you read a book or watch the news? If you had one IOTA of common sense you wouldn't be saying stupid things like that.

I have a sneaky suspicion you're trolling everyone in this discussion....

[IanPolaris]

Thedas is not a midaeval world. It is a thoroughly modern world with modern moral sensibilities. Wynne in DA:A even has a working knowledge of genocide and that's a very modern moral concept.

Bottom Line: Like most (or at least many) RPG worlds, Thedas is a modern world draped in a "middle-ages" flavor, and should be regarded as such. It is a modern world because it is designed to related to modern people (players).

-Polaris

[Lotion Soronarr]

Plaintiff wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...
But under normal circumstances, those Templar have to answer to their superiors.

Do they? From what (admittedly little) we've seen, Chantry oversight isn't exactly hands-on, and it's known that recruitment/promotion priority is given to the "most faithful" individuals, not the most trustworthy or most qualified.

But the fact that the Chantry govern the Templars in the first place is a fundamental flaw of the system anyway.

No, it's not.
And who is "trustworthy" is highly debatable b.t.w.

Not much of a difference, surely. Being made tranquil rips your personality and emotions away. Anything that made you you is gone, all that's left is a flesh-golem bearing your name.

Are you saing that all you are is your emotions? And that it? That your experiences, your reasoning means nothing?

Kind of does. Remove the whole "human rights" and modern view of ethics and morals and suddenly the idea of everyone being treated equally would get you laughed at, there's only two roles in this case: Those worst off than you and those better off than you.

I don't see why we need to remove the "modern view". Medieval technology doesn't justify or necessitate medieval morals. There's no reason why Thedas couldn't have more modern views. In some ways Thedas is very modern. Women can serve in war, own property and have titles, and gay couples are relatively well accepted even by our own standards. Clearly they have some concept of human rights.

You are wrong.
IF you are looking for REALISTIC solutions, you look for them within the framework of the setting. That includes how the world works. You don't just ignore that because you don't like it.
You can't just come into a world and demand it completely changes to suit your whims. Neither can you make such demand exclusively only on a selected few.

As I said before - if mages existed TODAY, the governments would isolate them.
Too voilatale, too unpredicatable, too dangerous. It's a smart thing thing to do for any responsible leader.

[MisterJB]

Nizaris1 wrote...
Nope, it not just a model...if so...Archdemon, Broodmother, Orge, Duncan, Cailan, loghain...all just models, they not really appear as they are, just models

Explain why Justice wears a templar armor.

Show it already, it don't prove anything, because whatever you do in the Fade, you will always pass the Harrowing, either you being diplomatic, being jack ass, being a fool, whatever as long as you survive, in the end the Pride demon let you pass.

And that proves mages are not set up to fail their Harrowing since even a fool can survive.

PROVE IT

You're the one presenting an outrageous theory that templars work with demons despite everything in the DA universe pointing otherwise.
The burden of proof falls on you.

Of course, the issue here is the CORRUPTION in the Circle and the Chantry, not the purpose of harrowing

You keep juggling from issue to issue if the argument doesn't go your way.
You insist the Harrowing is meant to kill mages. I prove it would be stupid to even consider that. And then you change to this supposed "corruption" in the Circle and the Chantry.

If there are 100 mages at Ostagar, they are not overwhelmed. grey Warden ability is not the issue here, but your confidence in CLAIMED TO BE Templar ability is the issue here.

A wonder then that the Warden can't just defeat the Blight after recruiting the mages. Nevermind that the Darkspawn ridiculously outnumber the entirety of Ferelden, let alone the mages, or that they have Emissaries.

The issue here is that you attempt to demonize and ridicule the templars beyond what is reasonable, going so far as to argue against DA Lore.

[dragonflight288]

But under normal circumstances, those Templar have to answer to their superiors. The Chantry doesn't approve of Templar abusing their assets, the Grand Cleric or Knight-Commander should step in and stop them from doing so and remove them from rank.

And that's the problem those of us who support the mages and reformation of the Circles have with the templars. Under normal circumstances, as seen through two games and through hearsay as well as the Codex entries, the templars AREN'T normally punished for abusing their power. They are recruited for religious fervor over any form of moral integrity to keep them from questioning their orders. That's the templar codex.

In origins, Cullen can go nuts, kill several apprentices and escape. Nothing happens to him in that epilogue. Or if he becomes the Knight-Commander if we did the Right of Annulment, he's a hardliner and even more strict than Gregoire ever was. He is essentially a Meredith in that epilogue.

Aneirin was a 14 year old apprentice. Chantry law says that the apprentices are to be recaptured, and Harrowed mages can be killed based on the decision of the templar leading the search. But Aneirin is run through by the templars and called maleficar. When we meet him, he's a healer and simply minds his own business.

The templars try to throw Aveline out of the guard so they can consolidate their power. Meredith prevents the city from choosing a new viscount and letting the city run itself. She remains the defacto viscount as a result. The templar's have a death squad killing non-mages in broad daylight. Templars abuse the magees with extreme prejudice without punishment.

Even in Awakening, Anders is called a murderer who killed the templars who recaptured him. Thing is, he may or may not have. There is no evidence presented to anyone, not even the gamers, that suggests if it was Anders or the darkspawn that killed them. And if we conscript Anders, the templar decides to ignore the King and the Grey Warden's rights to conscript ANYONE they so please, in favor of a perceived sense of justice without evidence.

And this is ignoring the novels. Now I'm not saying all templars are like this. I know they're not. There are some templars I genuinely like and feel that all they want to do is make a difference and do their job. Gregoire, Otto, Bryant, Thrask, and Kerran being good examples of what a templar should be.

But the system itself is flawed and allows the templars to abuse their power and do the things I mentioned previously. And we saw how much the Chantry was willing to stop them or hold them accountable for their actions.

They simply didn't.

This isn't meant to ignore the problems of abominations or blood mage criminals, as has been mentioned, there are bad eggs in every group, but a standard must be set, and not the current double standard the Chantry preaches about mages while ignoring their own templars actions. If someone commits a crime, they must be punished for it. Be they mage or templar.