673 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

Plaintiff wrote...
They don't wish to do anything.

That is not an absolute truth. In "Asunder", a Tranquil helps Wynne and Leliana free the mages without being told to do so.
So, they do have a certain amount of free will and, maybe not wishes, but preferences on how things should be.

[MisterJB]

Nizaris1 wrote...
because they have relationship with the Templar, while you say they don't.

Justice who barely knows anything about the world of the living has a relationship with the templars?
Justics who, through banter in DAA and force in DA2, tries to convince Anders to help his fellow mages has a relationship with the templars?
Seriously, this is ridiculous.

No, you say those demons know where the apprentice took the Harrowing, prove it, the burden is on you

Actually, we are both wrong. Both Valor and Mouse tells you that a demon was summoned with the promise of a meal and then imprisioned in that part of the Fade.
Templars use demons to test apprentices during Harrowings. That is just like Duncan who sent recruits against darkspawn to see if they could survive a fight with them. It is not the same as working with demons/darkspawn.

WHERE IS THE PICTURE YOU SAY YOU WANT TO SHARE?

Do you actually believe using CapsLock to demand things endears you to anyone?
But fine, here you can see Mouse as a bear but very far away from where my mages is fighting so it can't help.



And here you can see my mage alone; if you don't believe me, check the map on the top of the screen; and unarmed; I'm not using Valor's Staff; about to defeat the Rage Demon.
As you can see, it is entirely possible for mages to fulfill their Harrowing without any help.

[dragonflight288]

Actually, we are both wrong. Both Valor and Mouse tells you that a demon was summoned with the promise of a meal and then imprisioned in that part of the Fade.
Templars use demons to test apprentices during Harrowings. That is just like Duncan who sent recruits against darkspawn to see if they could survive a fight with them. It is not the same as working with demons/darkspawn.

I was actually just about to type that up when I saw it was already mentioned. lol.

[Lazy Jer]

Well keep in mind that the real test in The Warden's Harrowing wasn't the demon it was your "friend" mouse who (a) was feeding mages to the rage demon and ( was attempting to con the winners out of their earthly bodies.

[dragonflight288]

Mouse did try to ease his way in. Earn our trust with a certain persona, celebrate our victory, and then ask to be let in. And he's right, true tests never end.

[thats1evildude]

Weird, my post went to the wrong thread. 

Modifié par thats1evildude, 09 juillet 2012 - 08:29 .

[IanPolaris]

Lazy Jer wrote...

Well keep in mind that the real test in The Warden's Harrowing wasn't the demon it was your "friend" mouse who (a) was feeding mages to the rage demon and ( was attempting to con the winners out of their earthly bodies.

Yeah, and apparently the mages that run into "mouse" pretty much always fail.  A pride demon of that power isn't a fair test for a mage newly out of apprenticehood and the Templars damn well know that.  That's why I strongly suspect that the future-Warden was deliberately set up to fail.  Three demons and a possibly hostile spirit.

No.  That's not a fair test of ability whatsoever.  We know that Templars do this.  Bethany was set up to fail in DA2.  That is known.

Why?  The future-Warden was a known associate of Jowan, a 'suspected' bloodmage and was extremely powerful...suspiciously powerful in fact.  I strongly suspect the templars thought your future-warden was a blood-mage himself (or herself) and wanted to murder her 'legally'.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  As for why not pull a "Jowan" on your 'warden', remember that your 'warden' is (at this time) an apprentice to the first enchanter himself and very highly regarded by Irving (to the point where Irving is clearly grooming his apprentice to be a grey-warden recruit).  Gregoire IMHO probably felt that he was getting dangerouslyh close to the line already with Jowan given the lack of real proof, and going after you too in the same way would be a step too far.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 09 juillet 2012 - 08:53 .

[DPSSOC]

IanPolaris wrote...

Lazy Jer wrote...

Well keep in mind that the real test in The Warden's Harrowing wasn't the demon it was your "friend" mouse who (a) was feeding mages to the rage demon and ( was attempting to con the winners out of their earthly bodies.

Yeah, and apparently the mages that run into "mouse" pretty much always fail.  A pride demon of that power isn't a fair test for a mage newly out of apprenticehood and the Templars damn well know that.  That's why I strongly suspect that the future-Warden was deliberately set up to fail.  Three demons and a possibly hostile spirit.

No.  That's not a fair test of ability whatsoever.  We know that Templars do this.  Bethany was set up to fail in DA2.  That is known.

Why?  The future-Warden was a known associate of Jowan, a 'suspected' bloodmage and was extremely powerful...suspiciously powerful in fact.  I strongly suspect the templars thought your future-warden was a blood-mage himself (or herself) and wanted to murder her 'legally'.

-Polaris

Alternate theory here, a Mage's Harrowing is based on their ability.  Any test proves nothing if it is not designed to challenge so the Warden's Harrowing was designed based on his/her demonstrated skill.  Keep in mind the Templars have no means of calling or binding demons on their own; they need mage assistance which means they couldn't have just slid this past Irving.

IanPolaris wrote...
Edit PS:  As for why not pull a "Jowan" on your 'warden', remember that your 'warden' is (at this time) an apprentice to the first enchanter himself and very highly regarded by Irving (to the point where Irving is clearly grooming his apprentice to be a grey-warden recruit).  Gregoire IMHO probably felt that he was getting dangerouslyh close to the line already with Jowan given the lack of real proof, and going after you too in the same way would be a step too far.

Whatever proof Gregoire had was enough to convince Irving.  If Irving didn't believe Gergoire or didn't trust him he wouldn't have signed off on Jowan's Rite of Tranquility and it never would have happened.  Keep in mind that Irving goes against Gregoire a number of times with no reprecussion, the two have that level of respect for one another that Gregoire doesn't try to strong arm him.

Reposting this because I feel it got lost in the shuffle and I'd really like an answer

DPSSOC wrote...

Nizaris1 wrote...

Mouse says no such thing, he says he worked with Rage. Rage =/= Templar.

They all work with the Templar, Mouse involved in the set up to make you failed.

Simple question, how? How did the Templars not only contact 3 demons and a spirit but convince them to go along with this scheme? I'd accept that the Templars intentionally called in 3 demons rather than just 1 in order to stack the deck against you, but what you're talking about requires a level of planning and coordination that 1) Rage demons aren't capable of and 2) has never been so much as hinted at being possible.

[Gallimatia]

Nizaris1 wrote...

According to Mouse, he work with the Templar, he took part in making apprentices failed. he help YOU because YOU are different from others (as the story demanded)

[...]

Mouse watched that you can beat these two spirit/deomon either with your might (magic/willpower) or diplomatically, that make you different. Mouse act as an assessment officer in Harrowing.

Sloth (the beserkran bear), Spirit of Valor (in full Templar armor), the Rage Demon and Mouse all work with the Templar, Mouse betray the Rage Demon to help you instead, even in the end Mouse let you go...he can possessed you right away but he don't do it. You are supposed to FAILED the Harrowing as the Templar set you up, but the demons/spirits see you are worthy to be a mage and let you go

If you avoid telling Mouse he is a Demon he ends up exposing himself when he goes on a tirade about how much he hates templars.

PC: I'll find mages away from the templars. We'll get you out.

Mouse: No, no, no! It must be your choice! Quickly now, the templars are going to kill you. Can't you feel the sword at your neck? They belive all magic evil, the Fade evil. Once you are here, you become what they fear.

PC: Maybe they are right about some things.

Mouse: They know nothing! Dipping children in the Fade to tease, repeating "Maker" like it means something. I hate those mortals so much! Uhm... I mean we're all mortal, but the templars...

*realizes he is made and changes his voice*
  
Mouse [as demon]: Maybe they are right about you. The real dangers of the Fade are preconceptions, careless trust... pride. Keep your wits about you, mage. True tests never end.

He is not in cahoots with the templars. He enjoys eating the mages they send him though. He most certainly is not helping you. In this case he happened on an especially strong mage and decided to forgo his usual quick meal prepared by Rage thinking he'd stand a chance against the templars waiting on the other side should this especially potent candidate surrender his or her body to him. When the mage could not be convinced he let him or her go because forced possession is less rewarding and not worth the hassle of a fight. "Simple killing is a warriors job". That kind of work is what he keeps Rage around for.

The send off is Mouse recognizing you as a formidable mage just as the templars did when they set up your test. He also strokes your ego. It never hurts to be on good terms with a future master enchanter with no equal. Note that he compliments your wit even when you offer to help him and he trips himself up. The fury with with he delivers the lines about the templars suggests he's been spending a bit too much time with Rage.

Modifié par Gallimatia, 10 juillet 2012 - 12:22 .

[Plaintiff]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Again with this?
Geez, you people take a few cases of abuse and infalte them to epic proportions and showe them in everyones fae as some kind of proof.
Well it is proof - proof of how narrow-sighted you are, how unable you are to see hte bigger picture and proper context.

Two cases of repeat offenders in one Circle. It's obviously indicative of a wider problem. Anders clearly mentions beatings and rapings within the context of his own experience in the Circle, so obviously they happen in Ferelden as well. It's obviously indicative of a wide-spread issue

But it wouldn't matter if there were no cases of templars misbehaving. The way the Circle operates is inherently abusive. That is the context.

TheDas is a midel-ages themed society. And not a very nice one at that. Abuse of power and inefficencies are not exclusive to the chantry or the Cricels.
Oversight system like we have today do not exist. Cammeras do not exist. Phoens do not exist. The bill of human right does not exist. Most of the thing you take for granted don't exist.

Irrelevent. There is no reason that Thedas could not have a bill of human rights if it wanted one. Medieval technology does not excuse medieval morals.

"You'd understand if you looked at it from the perspective of an ignorant peasant who doesn't know any better!"

Yeah, no. I do know better, that's the point.

You think if you replace templars with mages there will be less abuse of power? No it won't. Mages are humans too and just as there are templars who abuse power, so there will be mages who do so.
You won't have a perfect system, but that's exactly what you think you'll get.

I think it depends on a number of variables. I do not advocate replacing templars with mages.

You have no idea what system I would envision for the Circle, because I have never told you. You're just making assumptions and putting words in my mouth and making yourself look like a complete twit.
 

Suppose mages run the Mage Circle and mages go around raping women and killing people...and then cover it all up. Prime reason to dissolve the New Mage Circle now?

I'm not proposing the dissolution of the Circle now. But you would know that if you ever actually read my posts instead of slamming your face on the keyboard repeatedly.

[dragonflight288]

@ some templar supporters, not all, but some.

Nowhere will you find any mage supporter wanting the complete dissolution of the Circle...okay, scratch that, you may find one or two. BUT, most mage supporters say the templars are needed. Most mage supporters openly acknowledge the dangers of abominations and blood mage criminals. But we also want the templars to be held accountable for their actions. We want a system where the Chantry doesn't control everything. We want a system that isn't inherently abusive. We're not even calling for complete mage freedom. Simply allowing mages a few more rights, like the right to marry without special permission, live outside the Circles once fully trained, the right to have a family without their children being taken as chantry property, and a place for them to study without fear of rape or beatings.

It's not that much to ask for. But doing so will limit Chantry and templar control over mages, and that's what the templars and Chantry in general oppose.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 09 juillet 2012 - 11:54 .

[Treacherous J Slither]

Plaintiff wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Again with this?
Geez, you people take a few cases of abuse and infalte them to epic proportions and showe them in everyones fae as some kind of proof.
Well it is proof - proof of how narrow-sighted you are, how unable you are to see hte bigger picture and proper context.

Two cases of repeat offenders in one Circle. It's obviously indicative of a wider problem. Anders clearly mentions beatings and rapings within the context of his own experience in the Circle, so obviously they happen in Ferelden as well. It's obviously indicative of a wide-spread issue

But it wouldn't matter if there were no cases of templars misbehaving. The way the Circle operates is inherently abusive. That is the context.

TheDas is a midel-ages themed society. And not a very nice one at that. Abuse of power and inefficencies are not exclusive to the chantry or the Cricels.
Oversight system like we have today do not exist. Cammeras do not exist. Phoens do not exist. The bill of human right does not exist. Most of the thing you take for granted don't exist.

Irrelevent. There is no reason that Thedas could not have a bill of human rights if it wanted one. Medieval technology does not excuse medieval morals.

"You'd understand if you looked at it from the perspective of an ignorant peasant who doesn't know any better!"

Yeah, no. I do know better, that's the point.

You think if you replace templars with mages there will be less abuse of power? No it won't. Mages are humans too and just as there are templars who abuse power, so there will be mages who do so.
You won't have a perfect system, but that's exactly what you think you'll get.

I think it depends on a number of variables. I do not advocate replacing templars with mages.

You have no idea what system I would envision for the Circle, because I have never told you. You're just making assumptions and putting words in my mouth and making yourself look like a complete twit.
 

Suppose mages run the Mage Circle and mages go around raping women and killing people...and then cover it all up. Prime reason to dissolve the New Mage Circle now?

I'm not proposing the dissolution of the Circle now. But you would know that if you ever actually read my posts instead of slamming your face on the keyboard repeatedly.

Dat last line.

[Plaintiff]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
No, it's not.
And who is "trustworthy" is highly debatable b.t.w.

So you'd be cool if the KKK was put in charge of the welfare of black families?

The Chantry is a hypocritical organization that has no qualms about using mages and magic to further it's cause while simultaneously preaching the "inherent evil" of magic and blames all the evils of the world on the fact that mages exist at all.

Yes, magic is dangerous, nobody denies that. But the Chantry is incapable of being objective or rational about the issue, and has proven that it can't be trusted to follow its own dogma anyway, so the fact that they control the Circles is a major flaw of the system, and they should be removed from power.

Are you saing that all you are is your emotions? And that it?

Um, no, I specifically mentioned personality, which is also taken away when you are made Tranquil. Read the actual words that I am actually typing.

That your experiences, your reasoning means nothing?

They don't mean anything once you are Tranquil. Without emotion, experiences have no meaning. Emotion is a major factor in reasoning.

You are wrong.
IF you are looking for REALISTIC solutions, you look for them within the framework of the setting. That includes how the world works. You don't just ignore that because you don't like it.

I'm not ignoring it.

You can't just come into a world and demand it completely changes to suit your whims. Neither can you make such demand exclusively only on a selected few.

Sure I can. The way Thedas works is wrong, and not just in respect to how mages are treated, and almost all of it stems from the fact that the ignorant, gullible masses buy in to the bull**** of the Chantry.

As I said before - if mages existed TODAY, the governments would isolate them.

And they would also be wrong.
 

Too voilatale, too unpredicatable, too dangerous. It's a smart thing thing to do for any responsible leader.

Yeah, no.

If governments were wary of destructive potential, they wouldn't pour so much money into weapons and military research. We already have the ability to nuke the entire world with the push of a button, a level of destructive capablitiy that no amount of mages could match.

You're working from a faulty premise that if mages are isolated, their power won't be used. But the Chantry uses the destructive power of the mages when it suits them, and then locks them back up without so much as a 'thank you'.

Modern governments would recognise the incredible potential magic has, not only for warfare, but also medical research and lord knows what else. They'd have an endlessly replenishing, non-polluting source of energy at their fingertips, and you expect they would just ignore that in favour of keeping the mages in a special prison?

Oh sure, they might isolate the mages while grossly misusing their power, but the Chantry already does that, and it didn't turn out so well for them. 

[dragonflight288]

Look into Thedas history. The Qunari attacked and nearly conquered all of Thedas. They had superior technology that none could match. The only thing that leveled the playing field was the mages and the power they wielded. To match cannon fire, they responded with fireballs.

The chantry is happy to use the mages when they need them, as in the case with fighting the Qunari, but then goes on about how mages are cursed being for simply existing.

[Gallimatia]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Look into Thedas history. The Qunari attacked and nearly conquered all of Thedas. They had superior technology that none could match. The only thing that leveled the playing field was the mages and the power they wielded. To match cannon fire, they responded with fireballs. 

That doesn't seem to be the case anymore. In DA2 it was established that the mages did not level the playing field. What happened was the imperialistic qunari took pity on the humans for reasons unexplained. If mages are to thank for this then it's some blood mage manipulating the Triumvirate. Come to think of it that's more reasonable than them arriving at this decision themselves.

Llomerryn Accords
Both Divines, white and black, declared Exalted Marches and for the only time since the Schism of the Chantry, they worked together. A centuy-long siege resulted, with the giant Qunari entrenched in Antiva and Rivain, and all of Thedas throwing armies against them.

The war drained the resources of every nation in Thedas, leaving most on the brink of collapse. For the giants, it did not appear to be the damage to their armada or the loss of their soldiers, but the terrible toll upon the Rivaini population that prompted their retreat. When the Third New Exalted March had all but massacred the people of Kont-aar without even chipping the Qunari occupying force, the giants finally withdrew.

Modifié par Gallimatia, 10 juillet 2012 - 12:45 .

[LobselVith8]

Gallimatia wrote...

That doesn't seem to be the case anymore.

Your excerpt doesn't dispute Gentivi's account about the Circle of Magi being the "greatest asset" of the Chantry led forces, or how Circle mages dealt with the advanced technology and cannons of the Qunari. It's speculation that the Qunari stopped attacking because of the losses that the people in the kingdom of Rivain suffered. I don't see how Genitivi's account is disputed when all the Chantry sister does is provide the suffering of the Rivaini people as the basis for why the Qunari agreed to an armistice with the human nations.

[MisterJB]

dragonflight288 wrote...
Simply allowing mages a few more rights, like the right to marry without special permission, live outside the Circles once fully trained, the right to have a family without their children being taken as chantry property, and a place for them to study without fear of rape or beatings.

It's not that much to ask for. But doing so will limit Chantry and templar control over mages, and that's what the templars and Chantry in general oppose.

I do think it is too much to ask. Allowing mages to live outside the tower will greatly increase the chance of demonic possession, mages abusing their powers and casualties from both due to exactly this loss of control over them. This greater freedom will lead to a greater number of potential innocent victims should the mage ever be possessed or simply have a bad day and decide to ease his frustations on some mundanes as well as a slower Templar response. Not to mention the potential of having a ill intentioned Blood Mage get too close to an important political figure.

I don't see any (major) problem with allowing mages to marry or have children so long as they understand how hard it would be to maintain this type of relationships in the Circle. I could also add parental visits to the list of rights the mages deserve.

[Gallimatia]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Gallimatia wrote...

That doesn't seem to be the case anymore.

Your excerpt doesn't dispute Gentivi's account about the Circle of Magi being the "greatest asset" of the Chantry led forces, or how Circle mages dealt with the advanced technology and cannons of the Qunari. It's speculation that the Qunari stopped attacking because of the losses that the people in the kingdom of Rivain suffered. I don't see how Genitivi's account is disputed when all the Chantry sister does is provide the suffering of the Rivaini people as the basis for why the Qunari agreed to an armistice with the human nations.

My reasoning is that if you're not chipping your opponents forces it doesn't matter much what your greatest asset is. My claim was that the mages did not level the playing field as of DA2.

DA:O: "each year, the Chantry pushed further and further into the Qunari lines" [with fireballs]
DA2: "without even chipping the Qunari occupying force, the giants finally withdrew"

It's the same sister that wrote both entries by the way. As I see it she her two accounts are not consistent. Here's the DA:O one.

The Occupied North
The greatest advantage of the Chantry-led forces was the Circle of Magi. For all their technology, the Qunari appeared to harbor great hatred for magic. Faced with cannons, the Chantry responded with lightning and balls of fire. [Good luck using that on qunari in DA2]

The Qunari armies lacked the sheer numbers of humanity. So many were slain at Marnas Pell, on both sides, that the Veil is said to be permanently sundered, the ruins still plagued by restless corpses. But each year, the Chantry pushed further and further into the Qunari lines, although local converts to the Qun proved difficult to return to Andraste's teachings.

Modifié par Gallimatia, 10 juillet 2012 - 02:22 .

[dragonflight288]

I do think it is too much to ask. Allowing mages to live outside the
tower will greatly increase the chance of demonic possession, mages
abusing their powers and casualties from both due to exactly this loss
of control over them. This greater freedom will lead to a greater number
of potential innocent victims should the mage ever be possessed or
simply have a bad day and decide to ease his frustations on some
mundanes as well as a slower Templar response. Not to mention the
potential of having a ill intentioned Blood Mage get too close to an
important political figure.

I don't see any (major) problem with
allowing mages to marry or have children so long as they understand how
hard it would be to maintain this type of relationships in the Circle. I
could also add parental visits to the list of rights the mages deserve.

Hmm. Okay, how about this.

Let's move to Thedas, and lock you up in the tower right now. As soon as you get there, let's put you through the Harrowing. If you manage to pass it, and if you're currently married, the marriage will no longer be valid and any children you have are now property of the dominant religion.

If you wish to go outside for a breath of fresh air, you must first get permission and prove you are capable of sneezing without losing control.

If you ask any questions or want to see your family, I'll fetch a high ranking officer to take away all your emotions and make you do whatever he likes. And then I'll conveniently not look into it. :innocent:

EDIT: As this is the internet, I recognize humor or sarcasm can be difficult to read, so please don't take this too seriously.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 10 juillet 2012 - 03:05 .

[MisterJB]

The system is not perfect but, what is? These are people who can make your blood boil inside your veins or control a king. Don't ask us to simply trust in their word that they will not abuse this power. And that is not taking into account that the noblest mage can fall to temptation like Avelina who was possessed out of rage of seeing her children starve and desire to give them a better life.

Modifié par MisterJB, 10 juillet 2012 - 03:24 .

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

The system is not perfect but, what is? These are people who can make your blood boil inside your veins or control a king. Don't ask us to simply trust in their word that they will not abuse this power. And that is not taking into account that the noblest mage can fall to temptation like Avelina who was possessed out of rage of seeing her children starve and desire to give them a better life.

You watch and moniter such people, and make crimes done with magic far more severe than those done without (sort of like using a firearm in a modern crime).  No one (at least no one I can think of) isn't saying that magic doesn't need to be regulated and that mages shouldn't be required to have manditory training.  For that matter no one that I can think of is saying that every mage should have willy nilly access to bloodmagic.

But if you treat mages like dangerous animals without regard to what they've done or their own humanity, then *shocker* a lot of them will behave like animals.

I can't think of a word vile enough to describe how the Chantry is dealing with mages or it's inherent hypocrisy in doing so especially in light of what we learn about Andraste and the early Andrastian religion in DAO.

-Polaris

[MisterJB]

In order for safety to be, minimally, assured, mages have to be monitored 24/7. Knowing this, it's just much more efficient to place them all in one place. The Circle Tower.
Mages living amongs mundanes is dangerous for both sides. It's dangerous for mundanes because the templar response will be slower; a mage/abomination can just kill everyone in the village and move on. And it's dangerous for mages because the first time the crops die, there will be an angry mob at their doorstep. I'm simply against it.
The Circle Isolation system could afford some changes but I don't see any other solution.

Yes, templars do push mages to desperate acts. However, desperation was not the founding stone of the Tevinter Imperium.

There is no real proof Andraste was a mage. Or are you referring to something else?

Modifié par MisterJB, 10 juillet 2012 - 04:05 .

[dragonflight288]

In order for safety to be, minimally, assured, mages have to be monitored 24/7. Knowing this, it's just much more efficient to place them all in one place. The Circle Tower.
Mages living amongs mundanes is dangerous for both sides. It's dangerous for mundanes because the templar response will be slower; a mage/abomination can just kill everyone in the village and move on. And it's dangerous for mages because the first time the crops die, there will be an angry mob at their doorstep. I'm simply against it.
The Circle Isolation system could afford some changes but I don't see any other solution.

Yes, templars do push mages to desperate acts. However, desperation was not the founding stone of the Tevinter Imperium.

There is no real proof Andraste was a mage. Or are you referring to something else?

There is no proof she isn't. There's enough evidence to cast reasonable doubt on what the Chantry claims. No one ever said it's proof positive she was or wasn't a mage.

But if you take the timeline after Andraste's death, the very first Circle wasn't established until 170 years after Andraste was killed. The templar order didn't exist at the time of Andraste.

The Chantry as it is didn't rise until 100 years after her death as well. And it was just one of many Andrastian cults, and it just happened to be chosen by an Orlesian warlord who wanted him conquering everyone else to be divine.

[TEWR]

Dave of Canada wrote...

... Ostagar wasn't going to be won that easy, you're being way too idealistic--to the point where I question whether you saw the same Ostagar that I did.

There's no point in arguing Ostagar with the person you quoted, because despite facts stating otherwise regarding Ostagar he/she will always believe Loghain was evil and planned the betrayal and everything else. 

Dave of Canada wrote...

The Darkspawn horde was far larger than expected, it was supposed to be a large incursion--not a full Blight, their entire plan hinged on flanking the Darkspawn with Loghain's group.

Except that was impossible, the horde was big enough that despite Cailan's entire group being decimated the entire horde hadn't even left the forest yet--Loghain would've had to charge directly into the middle of the horde and end up being flanked himself.

All the while, the darkspawn had access past the wall itself through the tunnels underneath the Tower of Ishal and would've easily overwhelmed the rangers / catapults and mages. Twenty or so mages would've only added more deaths to the list of fallen, any additional forces would.

And let's not forget that Darkspawn have mages themselves, shall we?

Although I'd imagine that with the full might of the Templars and Mages, Arl Howe not betraying the Couslands for his own gain, and the Dwarves/remaining Golems on their side they would've stood a chance at pushing the horde back into the Wilds.

Plus, I really would've wanted to see an Abomination go up against a large group of Darkspawn. Turn the loss of a mage into a win-win, more so if the Mage made a deal with the Demon saying "I don't want to die here. I'll turn my body over to you if you'll fight the Darkspawn".

It'd make him somewhat foolish -- even if his reasons were understandable -- but it'd be the lesser of two evils. Abominations aren't as hard to stop as a horde of Darkspawn led by a draconic being. They're hard to stop yes -- or so the lore claims, though gameplay has never held up to this -- but not as hard to stop.

Plus, since it'd be a willing possession he could A) be cured and assume control at times, if he's lucky.

But really, it'd just be badass to see.

Dave of Canada wrote..
[

Donna's awesome.