673 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

In order for safety to be, minimally, assured, mages have to be monitored 24/7. Knowing this, it's just much more efficient to place them all in one place. The Circle Tower.
Mages living amongs mundanes is dangerous for both sides. It's dangerous for mundanes because the templar response will be slower; a mage/abomination can just kill everyone in the village and move on. And it's dangerous for mages because the first time the crops die, there will be an angry mob at their doorstep. I'm simply against it.
The Circle Isolation system could afford some changes but I don't see any other solution.

Yes, templars do push mages to desperate acts. However, desperation was not the founding stone of the Tevinter Imperium.

There is no real proof Andraste was a mage. Or are you referring to something else?

Bollocks.  Kirkwall was a special case of special cases.  Mages do NOT turn into abominations on the spot just because they stub their toes anywhere where the veil is even close to normal. 

-Polaris

[MisterJB]

Nor did I claim it to be so. However, demonic possessions and magocracies are a danger in any part of Thedas.

[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...
Bollocks.  Kirkwall was a special case of special cases.  Mages do NOT turn into abominations on the spot just because they stub their toes anywhere where the veil is even close to normal. 

-Polaris

If Kirkwall was a special case of special cases for the mages, then the same should hold true for templars.

In other words, the behavior of Kirkwall tempars should be just as easily discounted as behavor of Kirkwall mages, no?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Look like Templar supporters are just trolls....they make claims with no evidence, then they make strawmen...

Dude..you have no evidence. You have icoherent ramblings.
Honestly, you make that pauper who rambles about CIA snakemen look respectable and sane in comparison.

You see everything as evidence of some grand templar conspiracy.

And yes, it's just a model. Because models = resources. Re-using art assets is normal thing to do, because game companies aren't made of money. That's why imporatnt characters get unique models and other don't. And guess what - the spirit of Valor wasn't an important character.

[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...
Yeah, and apparently the mages that run into "mouse" pretty much always fail.  A pride demon of that power isn't a fair test for a mage newly out of apprenticehood and the Templars damn well know that.  That's why I strongly suspect that the future-Warden was deliberately set up to fail.  Three demons and a possibly hostile spirit.

No.  That's not a fair test of ability whatsoever.  We know that Templars do this.  Bethany was set up to fail in DA2.  That is known.

BS.
Sez who? A mage is going to be hounded by all kinds of demons for hte rest of his life. By what logic is the Harrowing "not fair"? And by what logic do you even deman fairness, especially given that the Fade isn't under mortal control?

Powerful mages attract powerfull demons.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Plaintiff wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Again with this?
Geez, you people take a few cases of abuse and infalte them to epic proportions and showe them in everyones fae as some kind of proof.
Well it is proof - proof of how narrow-sighted you are, how unable you are to see hte bigger picture and proper context.

Two cases of repeat offenders in one Circle. It's obviously indicative of a wider problem. Anders clearly mentions beatings and rapings within the context of his own experience in the Circle, so obviously they happen in Ferelden as well. It's obviously indicative of a wide-spread issue

WOW. As much as TWO offender in the wrost cityand Circle in TheDas!!!!!

As I said before - I cna find you examples of such things happenign in the wrold today everywhere. It's not indicative of nothing. And anything Anders sez cna be taken with a grain of salt. He has an agenda of drawign the palyer to his side.

But it wouldn't matter if there were no cases of templars misbehaving. The way the Circle operates is inherently abusive. That is the context.

Yes, it would matter if there were no cases. How can it not matter, sicne exactly those cases are what you are harping about incessently?

You consider the Circles abusive because they take away some of the mages freedoms - the thing is any effective Circle will have to do the same.

Irrelevent. There is no reason that Thedas could not have a bill of human rights if it wanted one. Medieval technology does not excuse medieval morals.

"You'd understand if you looked at it from the perspective of an ignorant peasant who doesn't know any better!"

Yeah, no. I do know better, that's the point.

Relevant. There is no reason TheDas SHOULD have a bill of right. And there is no indication whatsoever that it has one. TheDas IS a medieval setting. It has a few liberal sprinkles here and there for the benefit of the audience, but that is pretty much it.

Better? No, you don't know better. You think you do.
Our morals are the product of our times AND our abilities to enforce those morals - both of which TheDas lacks.
Todays standards cannot be implemented and enforced in TheDas.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 10 juillet 2012 - 07:30 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

dragonflight288 wrote...

@ some templar supporters, not all, but some.

Nowhere will you find any mage supporter wanting the complete dissolution of the Circle...okay, scratch that, you may find one or two. BUT, most mage supporters say the templars are needed. Most mage supporters openly acknowledge the dangers of abominations and blood mage criminals. But we also want the templars to be held accountable for their actions. We want a system where the Chantry doesn't control everything. We want a system that isn't inherently abusive. We're not even calling for complete mage freedom. Simply allowing mages a few more rights, like the right to marry without special permission, live outside the Circles once fully trained, the right to have a family without their children being taken as chantry property, and a place for them to study without fear of rape or beatings.

It's not that much to ask for. But doing so will limit Chantry and templar control over mages, and that's what the templars and Chantry in general oppose.

I'm sorry, but you fail to prove Templars AREN'T held accountable.
The only thing you have proved is that SOME got awaywith their crimes.
The fact that some templars can get away with what they do really should be surprising. No level of oversight - especially in a medieval world - can get rid of abuse.
And it doesn't matter didly squat who is the one in charge.

Often times, even today, abuse of power and crimes are handeled iternally or covered up, or go on unreported or unnopticed. Or even when reported, there isn't enough proof to do anything.

You can repalce the templars and the Chantry with someone else, but it won't change that. Say you use warriors for the local lord insted of templars. Or you use mages. What happens when they abuse someoen or kill someone? Who will report it? Who will investigate? What kind of evidence will you find to support "that mage/templar raped/hit me" accusation?
You think the victims word is enough? There ain't no forensics in TheDas!

[IanPolaris]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Bollocks.  Kirkwall was a special case of special cases.  Mages do NOT turn into abominations on the spot just because they stub their toes anywhere where the veil is even close to normal. 

-Polaris

If Kirkwall was a special case of special cases for the mages, then the same should hold true for templars.

In other words, the behavior of Kirkwall tempars should be just as easily discounted as behavor of Kirkwall mages, no?

No it can't.  There is a physical reason why the normal rules of magic don't work in Kirkwall.  It's essentially a Tevinter Helmouth where the Viel is nearly non-existent.  That means that a what happens to mages there can't be used to generalize how mages should be treated elsewhere.

Indeed, it is the height of Chantry irresponsibility to have put a circle there at all.

However, the Templar issues with Kirkwall are not unique to that city-state.  It is a an overall abuse of power that is endemic to the Templars all over.  Heck the Templars are even chosen in such a way to encourage this.

This is a debate you will lose.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

Nor did I claim it to be so. However, demonic possessions and magocracies are a danger in any part of Thedas.

You implicitly did.  The only way that the incredibly regressive measures you seem to want to justify make any sense at all is if mages really could go "abomination crazy" just by stubbing their toes.  What we know from Thedas outside of Kirkwall (which is a Telvinter Helmouth) is that this simply isn't so.  The best evidence we have suggests that this is a very rare occurance provided that mages are provided a stable and secure environment along with good education and I fully fault the circle on both these accounts.

-Polaris

[Fallstar]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Again with this?
Geez, you people take a few cases of abuse and infalte them to epic proportions and showe them in everyones fae as some kind of proof.
Well it is proof - proof of how narrow-sighted you are, how unable you are to see hte bigger picture and proper context.

Two cases of repeat offenders in one Circle. It's obviously indicative of a wider problem. Anders clearly mentions beatings and rapings within the context of his own experience in the Circle, so obviously they happen in Ferelden as well. It's obviously indicative of a wide-spread issue

WOW. As much as TWO offender in the wrost cityand Circle in TheDas!!!!!

As I said before - I cna find you examples of such things happenign in the wrold today everywhere. It's not indicative of nothing. And anything Anders sez cna be taken with a grain of salt. He has an agenda of drawign the palyer to his side.

It isn't necessarily the worst circle. Take for example the circle in Asunder, the White Spire in Orlais, where Cole (a young mage) is brought in by the Templars and thrown in jail. That's bad enough, but what do they then do? They proceed to forget about him and let him starve to death. When they realize what happened they simply erase all record of his existence.

How many times could this have happened? How many times have the Templars utterly failed in their duty? How many instances of assault, torture, even rape have occurred that the Templars have just erased from the records to preserve their image?

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes. 

Modifié par DuskWarden, 10 juillet 2012 - 10:57 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Bollocks.  Kirkwall was a special case of special cases.  Mages do NOT turn into abominations on the spot just because they stub their toes anywhere where the veil is even close to normal. 

-Polaris

If Kirkwall was a special case of special cases for the mages, then the same should hold true for templars.

In other words, the behavior of Kirkwall tempars should be just as easily discounted as behavor of Kirkwall mages, no?

No it can't.  There is a physical reason why the normal rules of magic don't work in Kirkwall.  It's essentially a Tevinter Helmouth where the Viel is nearly non-existent.  That means that a what happens to mages there can't be used to generalize how mages should be treated elsewhere.

Indeed, it is the height of Chantry irresponsibility to have put a circle there at all.

However, the Templar issues with Kirkwall are not unique to that city-state.  It is a an overall abuse of power that is endemic to the Templars all over.  Heck the Templars are even chosen in such a way to encourage this.

This is a debate you will lose.

Yes it can.
Magic works normally in Kirkwall. Veil being weak doesn't weaken or change magic - quite the contrary.

And IF we go by the "the weaker veil influences magesto be more crazy", then you should also aknowledge that a weaker veil would influence everyone. That said, the city was already there and the Circle was there since forever.


In regards to templars, you have yet to prove that the abuse of power is as serious or as rampant as it is in Kirkwall. You have yet to prove that whatever immaginary system you have in mind would be better in any way, shape or form for anyone; Or that it would be feasable or pragmatic.
And no, templars aren't chosen to "encourage abuse" any more than soldiers are chosen to rape and pillage.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DuskWarden wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
WOW. As much as TWO offender in the wrost cityand Circle in TheDas!!!!!

As I said before - I cna find you examples of such things happenign in the wrold today everywhere. It's not indicative of nothing. And anything Anders sez cna be taken with a grain of salt. He has an agenda of drawign the palyer to his side.

It isn't necessarily the worst circle. Take for example the circle in Asunder, the White Spire in Orlais, where Cole (a young mage) is brought in by the Templars and thrown in jail. That's bad enough, but what do they then do? They proceed to forget about him and let him starve to death. When they realize what happened they simply erase all record of his existence.

How many times could this have happened? How many times have the Templars utterly failed in their duty? How many instances of assault, torture, even rape have occurred that the Templars have just erased from the records to preserve their image?

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes.

I don't know how many times. Neither do you.

Again - what's so surprising about a case of abuse or negligence?
Given the middle age setting, such things are to be expected to happen occasionaly.
Such things happen TODAY again and again.
You don't think there's cops today who done illigal stuff, and it's been covered up by some of their collegeus?

How many soldiers have failed in their duty? Just look at all the S*** that has been going on in Afghanistan and Iraq. And the same holds true for any army.
There isn't a perfect oversight. Never has been nor will there be. Especially not in Thedas.

And we don't even know how it works internally for hte templars. We simply don't.
There's one question for Gaider that might help clear this up a bit.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Nizaris1 wrote...
1. Harrowing is a test that involve demons as the testers

Somewhat correct

3. Templars set up apprentices to fail

Incorrect.

4. Templar use Blood Magic
- Phylactery is Blood Magic
- Blood Magic always have relationship with demons
- they use demons to hunt down escaped mages

Kinda-sorta. It's nothing more than a detector and it doesn't draw power from blood - it uses the blood as an identifier. Basicly it's like a compass that poins towards the mage from what I understand.

No, they don't use demons.

5. Templar got possessed
- not only mages who got possessed but Templar too
- there are a lot of possessed Templar in broken Circle
- Wilmord and Keran is the best example in DA2
- Meredith also

So, Templar use demons, only the blind don't see it

- normal people can get possesed, but it's exceptionally rare, requires special circumstances and the resulting entity is no where near as pwoerfull as a mage abomination
- gameplay. The palyer needs enemies. Number of enemies in-game are fluff-irreelevant.
- Meredith is more crazy than possesed.

So no, tempalrs don't use demons. Only the dellusional think that.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 10 juillet 2012 - 01:03 .

[MisterJB]

Nizaris1 wrote...
Where are those wisps spitting the electric shock? lols

Fail is fail....

I say you lie...from the second pic show Mouse-bear is moving away (icon), those wisps chasing him (minimap)lols

The wisps will always attack the Mouse-bear as soon after the cut scene, you move him away those wisps will continue spitting lighting at him, you use the healing orb to make him look like not injured (your life drain is on colldown as well your orb)

FAIL

Still YOU HAVE TO TALK TO THE SLOTH AND FORCE/PERSUADE IT TO TEACH MOUSE A BEAR FORM BECAUSE IT IS YOUR TEST

The wisps only attack Mouse if he is nearby which he wasn't so, they were standing still, attacking me. However, their attacks have a recharge time so, obviously, I took the picture at a time they were recharching.
Check the Open Palm beneath Mouse's icon. It means he can't move.
Yes, I used a healing orb as well as Life Drain. So? The point was never if a mage can defeat the demon untouched, the point was if a mage could defeat Rage without any form of help from Sloth or Valor and I just proved they can. The only reason you have to talk to both of them is game requirements, the Rage Demon won't appear otherwise.
Or do you think Rage Demons believe in fairplay now, too?

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
You implicitly did.  The only way that the incredibly regressive measures you seem to want to justify make any sense at all is if mages really could go "abomination crazy" just by stubbing their toes.  What we know from Thedas outside of Kirkwall (which is a Telvinter Helmouth) is that this simply isn't so.  The best evidence we have suggests that this is a very rare occurance provided that mages are provided a stable and secure environment along with good education and I fully fault the circle on both these accounts.

-Polaris

A mage doesn't need a demon's influence to be dangerous. Elites tend to opress less fortunate people and the mages will always be elites by virtue of being able to change the laws of nature on a whim. Now, they figth to end opression. Give them freedom and they will want more, they will want power and influence and will use their natural advantage over others to obtain it. It's only human.
That a demon can tempt even the most noble of mages just makes them even more dangerous.

The Circle is a secure evironment that provides good education and protects the mages in most places in Thedas. The effects the rift in the Veil in Krkwall have on mages will, inevitably, influence the way templars act towards them. There is always going to be a sick templar or two that enjoys killing mages but, in Ferelden, mages weren't confined to their quarters or turned Tranquil if they had completed their Harrowings.
The crescent abuse we saw in the White Spire was due to what Anders did.

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

The Circle is a secure environment that provides good education and protects the mages in most places in Thedas.

The mage protagonist in Origins can tell Wynne that the Circle is a "prison" and an "oppressive place," and she denies neither. In fact, Wynne can tell The Warden that he (or she) can change that the Circle is an oppressive place if he takes a leadership position, and that The Warden can fulfill the dream that she doesn't believe she will live to see happen.

Templars have domination over mages by "divine right." Hundreds of men, women, and children can be in the crosshairs of execution for an act they had nothing to do with. I don't see how this makes for a safe environment for mages. The fact that the centuries of this system have lead to a continental revolution across Thedas shows me that enough mages have an issue with the Chantry controlled Circles to illustrate that it isn't the solution.

[MisterJB]

Nizaris1 wrote...
They don't attack at the same time, they attack simultaneously. 

..."simultaneously" means "at the same time".

I'm done with you Nizaris1. You just keep spouting nonsense to support ridiculous conspiracy theories, it's obvious we're not getting anywhere with this.

[MisterJB]

Simultaneously: Happening, existing, or done at the same time.
And I'm not a native speaker either.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
The mage protagonist in Origins can tell Wynne that the Circle is a "prison" and an "oppressive place," and she denies neither. In fact, Wynne can tell The Warden that he (or she) can change that the Circle is an oppressive place if he takes a leadership position, and that The Warden can fulfill the dream that she doesn't believe she will live to see happen.

Templars have domination over mages by "divine right." Hundreds of men, women, and children can be in the crosshairs of execution for an act they had nothing to do with. I don't see how this makes for a safe environment for mages. The fact that the centuries of this system have lead to a continental revolution across Thedas shows me that enough mages have an issue with the Chantry controlled Circles to illustrate that it isn't the solution.

They don't have the same rights as mundanes, it's true. The Circle could sustain some changes in what freedoms it gives; I find it completely unnacessary to forbid mages from being visited by their families; and some Templars need to be reminded they exist to protect the mages from demons and mundane threat as well. Still, what happened in Kirkwall was an isolated case caused by demons, paranoia and Red Lyrium. Circles are not annulated on a Knight-Commander's whim.

I believe the mages are being unresonable. Their freedoms might be limited but they live in conditions most peasants could only dream of. They are fed, clothed, have a strong roof over their heads and receive proper education. If there are templars coming into their quarters at night, then these templars must be punished but abolishing the entire system will only result in war, anarchy, countless deaths and harsher conditions for future generations of mages if/when they lose.

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
The mage protagonist in Origins can tell Wynne that the Circle is a "prison" and an "oppressive place," and she denies neither. In fact, Wynne can tell The Warden that he (or she) can change that the Circle is an oppressive place if he takes a leadership position, and that The Warden can fulfill the dream that she doesn't believe she will live to see happen.

Templars have domination over mages by "divine right." Hundreds of men, women, and children can be in the crosshairs of execution for an act they had nothing to do with. I don't see how this makes for a safe environment for mages. The fact that the centuries of this system have lead to a continental revolution across Thedas shows me that enough mages have an issue with the Chantry controlled Circles to illustrate that it isn't the solution.

They don't have the same rights as mundanes, it's true. The Circle could sustain some changes in what freedoms it gives; I find it completely unnacessary to forbid mages from being visited by their families; and some Templars need to be reminded they exist to protect the mages from demons and mundane threat as well. Still, what happened in Kirkwall was an isolated case caused by demons, paranoia and Red Lyrium. Circles are not annulated on a Knight-Commander's whim.

I believe the mages are being unresonable. Their freedoms might be limited but they live in conditions most peasants could only dream of. They are fed, clothed, have a strong roof over their heads and receive proper education. If there are templars coming into their quarters at night, then these templars must be punished but abolishing the entire system will only result in war, anarchy, countless deaths and harsher conditions for future generations of mages if/when they lose.

It is a fundamental point in modern morality (and Thedas IS a modern world in DnD-like trappings...thoroughly modern) that you punish people for what they DO rather than what they ARE.  The entire circle system can quite justifiably be considered to be a form of genocide.  That means you have a very high burden of proof to show that mages are somehow so dangerous and so unpredictable that they can somehow justifiably not treated as human beings, and neither you (nor any other Templar supporter) nor the game itself comes even close to making that case.

Yes control magic.  Yes make sure that mages have to be trained.  Yes have special types of police (probably including mages themselves) that handle magic and magical crime (which will always exist no matter what system).  Do NOT treat mages as though they are feared monsters or otherwise subhuman.  Do NOT encourage lynch mobs to destroy and slaughter every last mage child (and yes the Chantry does this...the Rev Mother of Redcliff admits this to a mage warden).

The bottom line is that the entire role of policing and controlling magic needs to be taken out of religious hands and put where it belings.  In the hands of the state (crown).  While that's not a guarantee that mages will be treated better, it's an important first step since the Crown doesn't feel it controls magic by "divine right" and thus is more open to treating it's mages at the very least like the valuable human resource they are.

-Polaris