673 réponses à ce sujet

[Face of Evil]

IanPolaris wrote...

It is a fundamental point in modern morality (and Thedas IS a modern world in DnD-like trappings...thoroughly modern) that you punish people for what they DO rather than what they ARE.

The comparison is moot. Our modern-day society never had to deal the threat of demonic possession or blood magic. Magic was never responsible for the creation of a race of monsters that periodically try to destroy the world.

We never had to deal with their challenges, so it's unfair to hold them to our moral standards.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 10 juillet 2012 - 05:22 .

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
It is a fundamental point in modern morality (and Thedas IS a modern world in DnD-like trappings...thoroughly modern) that you punish people for what they DO rather than what they ARE.

We never had to deal with people with ridiculous natural advantages over most. Preemptive measures must be taken to minimize the risks of magics. Not wait to act until there is an Abomination or Blood Mages on the loose.

The entire circle system can quite justifiably be considered to be a form of genocide.  That means you have a very high burden of proof to show that mages are somehow so dangerous and so unpredictable that they can somehow justifiably not treated as human beings, and neither you (nor any other Templar supporter) nor the game itself comes even close to making that case.

That's stretching. Magic doesn't appear in any particular race of the human and elven species and it doesn't take magical parents to produce magical children. 
I disagree. There have been enough cases of mages abusing their powers and of mages falling victims to abominations for myriads of reasons, regardless of how noble or wicked they were, to justify the Institution of the Circle. There is a reason we don't let normal people own nuclear weapons but in Thedas, people are born with the ability to go nuclear and you can't remove it from them because what would power our cities then?
You have never really specificed what is it about the Circle that you find so abhorrent.

Yes control magic.  Yes make sure that mages have to be trained.  Yes have special types of police (probably including mages themselves) that handle magic and magical crime (which will always exist no matter what system).

Which the Circle already does.

Do NOT treat mages as though they are feared monsters or otherwise subhuman.  Do NOT encourage lynch mobs to destroy and slaughter every last mage child (and yes the Chantry does this...the Rev Mother of Redcliff admits this to a mage warden).

No question but it serves to exemplify why the Circle makes everyone safer, both mundanes and mages.

The bottom line is that the entire role of policing and controlling magic needs to be taken out of religious hands and put where it belings.  In the hands of the state (crown).  While that's not a guarantee that mages will be treated better, it's an important first step since the Crown doesn't feel it controls magic by "divine right" and thus is more open to treating it's mages at the very least like the valuable human resource they are.
-Polaris

I'm not sure I agree. While religious fanaticism is not a good thing, it did have an unintended, positive side effect. So long as most people think Blood Magic evil rather than useful, there is less chance of nobles or emperors feeding peasants to blood mages to further their own selfish goals.
Removing the chantry might do more evil than good. Besides, if not for mages like Adrian and Anders, relations could already be going in a more hopeful direction with a Divine like Justinia in power.
Instead, it's war.

[TEWR]

Gallimatia wrote...


That doesn't seem to be the case anymore. In DA2 it was established that the mages did not level the playing field. What happened was the imperialistic qunari took pity on the humans for reasons unexplained.

Qunari don't waste anything. To them, life is a valuable thing. Why kill something that you can make use of in some way? They only kill what's necessary to kill -- guards and Templars, citizens that resist the Qun when they're lacking on qamek -- and keep the rest alive so as to serve the Qun.

If mages are to thank for this then it's some blood mage manipulating the Triumvirate. Come to think of it that's more reasonable than them arriving at this decision themselves.

Sten says in Origins that the Qunari only signed the paper because Thedosians lands believed it would work. They'll break it when they want to.

And I don't see why it's so unreasonable that they came to it themselves. The Qunari aren't evil douchebags that don't care for other people.

Sten alone is proof of that, in both discussions with him -- where he'll say he doesn't want to be alive when the Qunari invade again -- as well as his backstory when examined in conjunction with his crime -- a man that protected non-combatants from violent people killed non-combatants in a panic. As a result, he forfeited his honor and would never forgive himself for that crime.

The Arishok himself cares about the people of Kirkwall.

Whether people agree with how the Qunari care about other people is irrelevant really. Their methods may not be perfect, but they do care about society.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 10 juillet 2012 - 07:46 .

[IanPolaris]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...
It is a fundamental point in modern morality (and Thedas IS a modern world in DnD-like trappings...thoroughly modern) that you punish people for what they DO rather than what they ARE.[/quote]
We never had to deal with people with ridiculous natural advantages over most. Preemptive measures must be taken to minimize the risks of magics. Not wait to act until there is an Abomination or Blood Mages on the loose.
[/quote]

That line has been used to excuse the imprisonment and enslavement of minorities since the start of civilization, and yes from the start of civilization people HAVE been born with "ridiculous" advantages over others.  A nobleman had such advantages (admittedly from society rather than ability), but it doesn't make the effect any less valid.

You start pointing at another human being that is different and yell "Fear him, protect us" and you are one small step away from concentration camps....or worse.   EIther mages are human beings or they are not.  If they are (and I would say they are), then if you can not treat them as such, you deserve all the bad things that come to you if you preemptively treat them otherwise.

[quote]


[quote]The entire circle system can quite justifiably be considered to be a form of genocide.  That means you have a very high burden of proof to show that mages are somehow so dangerous and so unpredictable that they can somehow justifiably not treated as human beings, and neither you (nor any other Templar supporter) nor the game itself comes even close to making that case.[/quote]
That's stretching. Magic doesn't appear in any particular race of the human and elven species and it doesn't take magical parents to produce magical children.
[/quote]

Mages form their own social group by their accounts and by others.  Read the UN Statutes.  It's genocide.  Wynne in the game even uses the word w/r/t the mage-templar question.  It's a very reasonable thing to compare to.


 [quote]
I disagree. There have been enough cases of mages abusing their powers and of mages falling victims to abominations for myriads of reasons, regardless of how noble or wicked they were, to justify the Institution of the Circle. There is a reason we don't let normal people own nuclear weapons but in Thedas, people are born with the ability to go nuclear and you can't remove it from them because what would power our cities then?
You have never really specificed what is it about the Circle that you find so abhorrent.
[/quote]

It's called collective punishment and it's a human rights violation not to mention a war crime.  Nice.

[quote]

[quote]Yes control magic.  Yes make sure that mages have to be trained.  Yes have special types of police (probably including mages themselves) that handle magic and magical crime (which will always exist no matter what system).[/quote]
Which the Circle already does.
[/quote]

ORLY?  The evidence we have suggests that the circles do a terrible job at both (other than making the Chantry monopolize all magic which I think always was the real point).  Compare the circle societies to those that don't use circles. 


[quote]

[quote]Do NOT treat mages as though they are feared monsters or otherwise subhuman.  Do NOT encourage lynch mobs to destroy and slaughter every last mage child (and yes the Chantry does this...the Rev Mother of Redcliff admits this to a mage warden).[/quote]
No question but it serves to exemplify why the Circle makes everyone safer, both mundanes and mages.
[/quote]

Evidence would be nice.  So far we have no evidence that the circle makes anyone safe and a lot of circumstantial evidence that strongly suggests the opposite.


[quote]
[quote] The bottom line is that the entire role of policing and controlling magic needs to be taken out of religious hands and put where it belings.  In the hands of the state (crown).  While that's not a guarantee that mages will be treated better, it's an important first step since the Crown doesn't feel it controls magic by "divine right" and thus is more open to treating it's mages at the very least like the valuable human resource they are.
-Polaris [/quote]
I'm not sure I agree. While religious fanaticism is not a good thing, it did have an unintended, positive side effect. So long as most people think Blood Magic evil rather than useful, there is less chance of nobles or emperors feeding peasants to blood mages to further their own selfish goals.
Removing the chantry might do more evil than good. Besides, if not for mages like Adrian and Anders, relations could already be going in a more hopeful direction with a Divine like Justinia in power.
Instead, it's war.[/quote]

What unintended positive consquence?  All I am seeing is how it's good for the domination of the Chantry, and I don't regard that as a positive.  Not all states must be like Tevinter.  That's simple Chantry scare tactics.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Face of Evil wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

It is a fundamental point in modern morality (and Thedas IS a modern world in DnD-like trappings...thoroughly modern) that you punish people for what they DO rather than what they ARE.

The comparison is moot. Our modern-day society never had to deal the threat of demonic possession or blood magic. Magic was never responsible for the creation of a race of monsters that periodically try to destroy the world.

We never had to deal with their challenges, so it's unfair to hold them to our moral standards.

Sure we have.  Anyone can walk in with a suitcase full of materials and destroy a city.  We very much have to deal with such threats.  Thedas and DA itself invites us as modern gamers to make the comparison.  Don't flinch from the obvious conclusions.

-Polaris

[dragonflight288]

Explosions exist as a technology in Thedas. The Qunari have cannons. The elf wanted the gatlock to destroy an entire section of the city, and was horrified that she unleashed poison instead of an explosion.

Non-mage capable of great destruction.

[TEWR]

Face of Evil wrote...


The comparison is moot. Our modern-day society never had to deal the threat of demonic possession or blood magic. Magic was never responsible for the creation of a race of monsters that periodically try to destroy the world.

Pfft... if you believe humanity is a race of monsters then magic was responsible for that, assuming you follow Christianity to the letter.



Really, your post simply reminded me of this image.

Although I should point out that I have no reason to believe the Tevinter Mages were the cause of the first Darkspawn. I only believe they were the cause of the first Awakened Darkspawn, which is another field entirely.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 10 juillet 2012 - 07:55 .

[TEWR]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Kinda-sorta

There is no "kinda-sorta". David Gaider flat out stated the phylacteries were blood magic in one of his most recently transcribed interviews, in regards to the Chantry's claims on what's magic and what isn't -- specifically Templar abilities.

DG:  I would say that they are magic, they derive from lyrium, which is magic. The tricky thing there is that the Chantry is awfully hypocritical when it comes to magic, in that there are sorts of magic that they will use. Actually I should take that back, it's not necessarily that they're hypocritical, they don't have anything against magic itself. Magic can be useful, they know the mages are useful. It's the elements of possession and blood magic, all the forbidden magic where things get really dicey.

Regardless the magic the Templars use doesn't involve mind control, it's not forbidden magic, there's nothing about it--especially since it can only work against mages--there's nothing about it that would make the Chantry step in and go "Wow, that's bad." But then we're talking about a Chantry that also has phylacteries in every Circle, which is a type of blood magic, so there's definitely an element of hypocrisy there


http://swooping-is-b...om/1286233.html

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 10 juillet 2012 - 08:01 .

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
That line has been used to excuse the imprisonment and enslavement of minorities since the start of civilization, and yes from the start of civilization people HAVE been born with "ridiculous" advantages over others.  A nobleman had such advantages (admittedly from society rather than ability), but it doesn't make the effect any less valid.

You can take the money away from the nobleman, convince his soldiers to disobey him. Like you said, all of his advantages only have the value we atribute them.
You can't take magic away from a mage and the ability to imolate others with your mind has a very real value.

You start pointing at another human being that is different and yell "Fear him, protect us" and you are one small step away from concentration camps....or worse.   EIther mages are human beings or they are not.  If they are (and I would say they are), then if you can not treat them as such, you deserve all the bad things that come to you if you preemptively treat them otherwise.

The issue is nowhere near as black and white as you suggest. Mages are not feared because the color of their skin slightly differs from ours. Mages are feared because they can gesture with their hands and bring entire buildings down, they can slit their wrists and force you to eat the flesh of your family.
Treating them as if they are equal to us is well intentioned naivety.

It's called collective punishment and it's a human rights violation not to mention a war crime.  Nice.

It's also the only solution. And there are good things to be found in the Circle like education, companionship, safety.

ORLY?  The evidence we have suggests that the circles do a terrible job at both (other than making the Chantry monopolize all magic which I think always was the real point).  Compare the circle societies to those that don't use circles. 

And what evidence is that? The multiple reports of the Templars and Seekers destroying abominations and blood mages? (More on Chantry dominion later)

Societies like Tevinter where the Magisters bleed children at their parties? Or maybe the Qunari where the treatment of mages make the Circle look benevolent in comparision?
Dalish clans where there is only one mage or two at most per clan(thus not applicable to human society) and, despite this, they are ocasionally destroyed by elven abominations? Or Rivain where the population has resigneditself to the fact that abominations will simply reduce their villages to cinders every now and again?

Evidence would be nice.  So far we have no evidence that the circle makes anyone safe and a lot of circumstantial evidence that strongly suggests the opposite.

Imagine what would have happened in Ferelden had Uldred been given permission to live outside the tower. The massacre at Redcliff would never have happened had Connon been in the Circle.
And remember the numerous relates of mobs lynching mage children once their power reveal themselves?

What unintended positive consquence?  All I am seeing is how it's good for the domination of the Chantry, and I don't regard that as a positive.  Not all states must be like Tevinter.  That's simple Chantry scare tactics.
-Polaris

Oh, I have no doubt the Chantry wishes to be the only one with acess to magic but whatever crimes the Chantry has commited pale in comparison to Tevinter's. Has the Chantry really abused their powers so? Their prohibition of blood magic is actually enforced; we don't see the Divine using blood mages in secret as a means of enforcing Chantry autorithy.
They have used mages in the past because they are useful but to do what? Drive off Darkspawn and Qunari.

Modifié par MisterJB, 10 juillet 2012 - 08:22 .

[dragonflight288]

You can take the money away from the nobleman, convince his soldiers to disobey him. Like you said, all of his advantages only have the value we atribute them.
You can't take magic away from a mage and the ability to imolate others with your mind has a very real value.

Nor can you take away a mages ability to cure you of diseases and heal your injuries. But you can take away all the medical supplies from a hospital.

The issue is nowhere near as black and white as you suggest. Mages are not feared because the color of their skin slightly differs from ours. Mages are feared because they can gesture with their hands and bring entire buildings down, they can slit their wrists and force you to eat the flesh of your family.
Treating them as if they are equal to us is well intentioned naivety.

And yet one ever complains about the mundane cannibals. Hannibal Lector must be pleased he's being ignored....

It's also the only solution. And there are good things to be found in the Circle like education, companionship, safety.

Oh yes. Safety from beatings for talking to civilians...wait, don't have that. I know, safety to have families without fear of persecution or having your children taken from you...wait, don't have that either. I know! A safe place to not get raped...wait, that's not there either. Hmm. Exactly who are you protecting mages from again?

And it's obviously not the only solution. The solution failed and now being a mage is a death sentence. No ifs, ands, or buts. The system has fallen apart and failed entirely. You can't call it a solution anymore. The templar's are on a mage hunt, with every intention of slaughtering them. That's how things stand right now. What is the solution? Obviously not what's been done.

And what evidence is that? The multiple reports of the Templars and Seekers destroying abominations and blood mages? (More on Chantry dominion later)

Societies like Tevinter where the Magisters bleed children at their parties? Or maybe the Qunari where the treatment of mages make the Circle look benevolent in comparision?
Dalish clans where there is only one mage or two at most per clan(thus not applicable to human society) and, despite this, they are ocasionally destroyed by elven abominations? Or Rivain where the population has resigneditself to the fact that abominations will simply reduce their villages to cinders every now and again?

Mages being forced into an environment and told they'll never see their family again. An environment where a mages emotions can be taken from them if they are deemed weak, or if a sadistic templar finds you attractive. Where you and everyone you grew up with can be killed for the actions of an apostate not even related to you and had never been housed there.

....How would you like it if your family in real life was to be butchered for what your neighbor down the street did? And you'll be killed because you all have one similarity. If you have weapons, I fully expect you'd pull them out to defend yourselves.

Or someone could break into your house, you pull out a weapon to defend yourself, and the criminal sues you for assault and then wins. (American courts can be stupid.)

Imagine what would have happened in Ferelden had Uldred been given permission to live outside the tower. The massacre at Redcliff would never have happened had Connon been in the Circle.
And remember the numerous relates of mobs lynching mage children once their power reveal themselves?

Imagine if mages weren't desperate to free themselves from the Chantry? It's a much brighter picture if you have less desperate mages.

Oh, I have no doubt the Chantry wishes to be the only one with acess to magic but whatever crimes the Chantry has commited pale in comparison to Tevinter's. Has the Chantry really abused their powers so? Their prohibition of blood magic is actually enforced; we don't see the Divine using blood mages in secret as a means of enforcing Chantry autorithy.
They have used mages in the past because they are useful but to do what? Drive off Darkspawn and Qunari.

So ignoring the Chantry's crimes against its citizens is perfectly fine because some other empire has its own set of crimes?

[MisterJB]

dragonflight288 wrote...
Nor can you take away a mages ability to cure you of diseases and heal your injuries. But you can take away all the medical supplies from a hospital.

It's exactly because magic is useful that the rite of Tranquility is not used more often.
Mages are valuable resources.

And yet one ever complains about the mundane cannibals. Hannibal Lector must be pleased he's being ignored....

Mundane criminals are more easily discovered and contained than criminal mages.

Oh yes. Safety from beatings for talking to civilians...wait, don't have that. I know, safety to have families without fear of persecution or having your children taken from you...wait, don't have that either.Hmm. Exactly who are you protecting mages from again?

Lynch mobs blamming them whenever a cow dies, for instance. And an untrained mage is easy prey for any demon.

And it's obviously not the only solution. The solution failed and now being a mage is a death sentence. No ifs, ands, or buts. The system has fallen apart and failed entirely. You can't call it a solution anymore. The templar's are on a mage hunt, with every intention of slaughtering them. That's how things stand right now. What is the solution? Obviously not what's been done.

Because of mages like Anders and Adrian who don't attempt to reach a compromise, choosing instead to insist that it is "Complete freedom or death!" for all mages. They are the ones who started this war and the harsher conditions future mages will have to suffer is on their heads.

Mages being forced into an environment and told they'll never see their family again. An environment where a mages emotions can be taken from them if they are deemed weak, or if a sadistic templar finds you attractive. Where you and everyone you grew up with can be killed for the actions of an apostate not even related to you and had never been housed there.

....How would you like it if your family in real life was to be butchered for what your neighbor down the street did? And you'll be killed because you all have one similarity. If you have weapons, I fully expect you'd pull them out to defend yourselves.

Or someone could break into your house, you pull out a weapon to defend yourself, and the criminal sues you for assault and then wins. (American courts can be stupid.)

Pro-mages ask to not paint all mages with the same brush but then they do the very same thing to templars. One sick templar tried to get some living sex dolls and it's suddenly a staple of the Rite of Tranquility. Nevermind the fact that Ser Alrik's plan was refused by, Meredith, Elthina and Justinia and that the Rite is only forced on mages that practice blood magic. One paranoid Knight-Commander that ilegally ordered an Annulment on a whim, that is all.
 

Imagine if mages weren't desperate to free themselves from the Chantry? It's a much brighter picture if you have less desperate mages.

Desperation was not the founding stone of the Tevinter Imperium.
And Connor was not motivated out of desperation to free himself but to save his father and dozens died for it.

So ignoring the Chantry's crimes against its citizens is perfectly fine because some other empire has its own set of crimes?

The Chantry is better than the alternative which is Tevinter.

Modifié par MisterJB, 10 juillet 2012 - 09:10 .

[dragonflight288]

It's exactly because magic is useful that the rite of Tranquility is not used more often.
Mages are valuable resources.

Until Lambert and the majority of the templars decided that all mages need to die for the high crime of being a mage. That's exactly where the world stands, right now.

Mundane criminals are more easily discovered and contained than criminal mages.

Not necessarily. I won't dispute that if a mage criminal is clever, it'll be very difficult to catch him. But if a non-mage is clever and skilled, it is also almost impossible to catch them as well. Al Capone wasn't caught for murder, extortion, bribery, assault, robbery, or any other sorts of crimes in real life. He ended up getting caught because of tax evasion since he forgot to file a tax return.

Members of the mafia can't be arrested throughout history due to a lack of evidence. Nothing says the same isn't true of Thedas.

I don't dispute mage criminals can be dangerous and hard to catch. But non-mage criminals can just as easily be hard to catch if they are clever and skilled.

Lynch mobs blamming them whenever a cow dies, for instance. And an untrained mage is easy prey for any demon.

Good point that I won't dispute. I'll only say that those lynch mobs are formed by their belief in the Chantry in addition to their fear. It's ingrained in the culture, but the point still stands....I'd almost prefer death to rape and being emotionally neutered myself, but that's just me and I can't speak for anyone else.

Because of mages like Anders and Adrian who don't attempt to reach a compromise, choosing instead to insist that it is "Complete freedom or death!" for all mages. They are the ones who started this war and the harsher conditions future mages will have to suffer is on their heads.

Can't speak for Adrian, but Anders did spend years writing manifestos and helping people in the slums for free while the Chantry ignored those areas and tried to extort money in other areas (such as Lothering with the Revered Mother who refuses to give any blessings without a tithe)

I'll admit that Anders took away the chance of compromise in Kirkwall. But with people like Meredith, there already wasn't any compromise to be found. Elthina says Orsino is reasonable and she wanted to find a compromise. I noticed she never said Meredith was reasonable.

And Lambert refused to compromise just as much.

Pro-mages ask to not paint all mages with the same brush but then they do the very same thing to templars. One sick templar tried to get some living sex dolls and it's suddenly a staple of the Rite of Tranquility. Nevermind the fact that Ser Alrik's plan was refused by, Meredith, Elthina and Justinia and that the Rite is only forced on mages that practice blood magic. One paranoid Knight-Commander that ilegally ordered an Annulment on a whim, that is all.

That one sick templar was never punished or investigated as far as we saw. There is a note that can be hard to miss in Act 1 that shows Alrik was doing this for years and its implied Karl was made tranquil illegally.

And I don't paint all templars with the same brush. I've repeatedly in the past and multiple threads, talked about how I like Gregoire, Otto, Bryant, Thrask, and Kerran. My arguments have always been that the system as it stands now, allows such abuses to occur without punishment, and there is plenty of evidence in both games and Awakening that show templars can do what they want without punishment.

1. The templars who went after Aneirin. It is Chantry law that apprentices be brought back. That's why Anders was brought back 7 times. But for the elf Aneirin, a 14 year old apprentice, he's run through and no questions are asked.
2. That templar who wants to arrest Anders for murder in Awakening. I admit that there is a good chance that Anders may or may not have killed those templars, but there is absolutely no evidence. It's just as likely they were killed by the darkspawn. There isn't any evidence that Anders murdered them.
That very same templar, should we conscript Anders, decides to ignore the King (or Queen) as well as the Warden's rights with their power of conscription and decides to arrest Anders anyway. She's completely ignoring the crown and the accepted powers of the Warden to conscript ANYONE, be they king or criminal.
3. Thrask says that if Kerras caught up to the mages, he wouldn't even bother looking for another solution. It would simply be a bloodbath.
4. Alrik has been illegally tranquilizing mages for years, and if a mage passes their Harrowing, it's against Chantry law to tranquilize them.

It's not just Alrik. He's simply the most visible of the abusers.

Desperation was not the founding stone of the Tevinter Imperium.
And Connor was not motivated out of desperation to free himself but to save his father and dozens died for it.

And Connor's problem was one that could easily have been avoided if Isolde wasn't so frightened of what it would mean for her son to be in the Circle and desperately wanted to keep things secret. Jowan wouldn't even have been brought there but instead would've been caught (which he was until Loghain intervened)

The Chantry is better than the alternative which is Tevinter.

The Imperium rose without a history of mages being stigmatized. Then it became their culture.

The Chantry and anything that rises from the ashes, have that history and that stigma, so it's only natural that another Tevinter isn't doomed to happen as an alternative.

The Dalish formed and they aren't tevinter. The Chasind have never been conquered by Orlais or Tevinter, and while largely scattered, they and their mages aren't another Tevinter. Rivain and their seers (which could easily be a person possessed by a spirit of mercy, a spirit of faith) are most definitely NOT Tevinter either.

You can't claim the only alternative is Tevinter. There is more than enough proof of other cultures, even if they are small, that develop without the mages running a magocracy.

[Gallimatia]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Qunari don't waste anything. To them, life is a valuable thing. Why kill something that you can make use of in some way? They only kill what's necessary to kill -- guards and Templars, citizens that resist the Qun when they're lacking on qamek -- and keep the rest alive so as to serve the Qun.

Sten says in Origins that the Qunari only signed the paper because Thedosians lands believed it would work. They'll break it when they want to.

And I don't see why it's so unreasonable that they came to it themselves. The Qunari aren't evil douchebags that don't care for other people.

Sten alone is proof of that, in both discussions with him -- where he'll say he doesn't want to be alive when the Qunari invade again -- as well as his backstory when examined in conjunction with his crime -- a man that protected non-combatants from violent people killed non-combatants in a panic. As a result, he forfeited his honor and would never forgive himself for that crime.

The Arishok himself cares about the people of Kirkwall.

Whether people agree with how the Qunari care about other people is irrelevant really. Their methods may not be perfect, but they do care about society.

Of course the qunari don't waste. Nobody wastes on purpose.

Waste
-consume, spend, or employ uselessly or without adequate return

What is adequate return depends on the person doing the spending. For instance it might seem wasteful to wage war to get back a book but if you value the book high enough it is not a waste. What you value and how much you value it is arbitrary. A mage that uses a slave to fuel a blood ritual is only wasteful if he values the slave more than the ritual. Say he finds the future labour of the slave more valuable and neglets the ritual am I supposed to think more of him for it?

I can't recall it being suggested outside this codex entry that qunari assign life intrinsic value. I give the qunari the benefit of the doubt on this one and their behaviour when annexing support that they are not burdened by such ideas, at least not especially so. For instance they kill all influential people that do not convert. No brain poison for them as their continued existance can inspire resistance. That's what the Arishok gathered the nobles up in the Keep to do. For Hawke it would have been the qun with Merrill shipped off to have her mouth sewn shut or death. No third option to go to the mines and live happily ever after.

Obviously having people alive has instrumental value to anyone aspiring to rule the world and I'd expect the Triumvirate to take that into consideration but there's no getting around people dieing in droves when you show up to turn their lives upside down, compel them to denounce their gods and take up a life of mandatory labour. Sten's talk about the treaty only further proves my point that the DA2 entry makes no sense. He says they will be back to conquer when the time is right. This fits much better if you left because the enemy was too strong at the time, because of mages in their ranks, than if you left because people were dieing even though you were winning with ease. Retreating and letting the enemy rebuild can only be expected to increase the overall amount of casualities if, like Sten, you take it as a given that you are coming back to finish the job.

Qunari are mean bastards that do not care for anything other than fulfilling the qun. Luckily not many kossith are righteous qunari. Sten best hide his newly found reluctance to conquer Thedas or he is in for a reschooling.

Modifié par Gallimatia, 10 juillet 2012 - 10:37 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Gallimatia wrote...

Waste
-consume, spend, or employ uselessly or without adequate return

What is adequate return depends on the person doing the spending. For instance it might seem wasteful to wage war to get back a book but if you value the book high enough it is not a waste. What you value and how much you value it is arbitrary.

I like this reasoning.

[MisterJB]

dragonflight288 wrote...
Until Lambert and the majority of the templars decided that all mages need to die for the high crime of being a mage. That's exactly where the world stands, right now.

Lambert only declared war after the mages declared independence. While his actions are not commendable, the mages burned the bridges first.

Not necessarily. I won't dispute that if a mage criminal is clever, it'll be very difficult to catch him. But if a non-mage is clever and skilled, it is also almost impossible to catch them as well. Al Capone wasn't caught for murder, extortion, bribery, assault, robbery, or any other sorts of crimes in real life. He ended up getting caught because of tax evasion since he forgot to file a tax return.

Members of the mafia can't be arrested throughout history due to a lack of evidence. Nothing says the same isn't true of Thedas.

I don't dispute mage criminals can be dangerous and hard to catch. But non-mage criminals can just as easily be hard to catch if they are clever and skilled.

Now picture Al Capone with acess to blood magic.
Mundanes can be more dangerous than mages, no doubt, but it's rare. Especially if special measures are not taken to contain magic.

Can't speak for Adrian, but Anders did spend years writing manifestos and helping people in the slums for free while the Chantry ignored those areas and tried to extort money in other areas (such as Lothering with the Revered Mother who refuses to give any blessings without a tithe)

The church can be greedy, of course, but Lothering was overflowing with refugees. I won't blame that Revered Mother for using any opportunity to earn the money they sorely needed.
Also, the way Anders treats other refugees has no bearing in his relation with the Chantry and Templars. After Alrik's death, he admits he hadn't even considered the possibility of figures of autorithy in both groups being sympathetic to the plight of the mages and would consider approaching them which suggests he hadn't considered the option before.

I'll admit that Anders took away the chance of compromise in Kirkwall. But with people like Meredith, there already wasn't any compromise to be found. Elthina says Orsino is reasonable and she wanted to find a compromise. I noticed she never said Meredith was reasonable.

Well, no one can say Meredith is reasonable. If she doesn't see any evidence of blood magic, she simply assumes it is really well hidden. The solution should be removing her from power. Not start a world war.
The problem is that Anders was not interested in simply improving the conditions of the Kirkwall Circle, he wants the completely dissolution of the Circles which is an extreme much like the Tranquil Solution only on the other side of the fence.

And Lambert refused to compromise just as much.

Yes, he did refuse to compromise.

That one sick templar was never punished or investigated as far as we saw. There is a note that can be hard to miss in Act 1 that shows Alrik was doing this for years and its implied Karl was made tranquil illegally.

And I don't paint all templars with the same brush. I've repeatedly in the past and multiple threads, talked about how I like Gregoire, Otto, Bryant, Thrask, and Kerran. My arguments have always been that the system as it stands now, allows such abuses to occur without punishment, and there is plenty of evidence in both games and Awakening that show templars can do what they want without punishment.

1. The templars who went after Aneirin. It is Chantry law that apprentices be brought back. That's why Anders was brought back 7 times. But for the elf Aneirin, a 14 year old apprentice, he's run through and no questions are asked.
2. That templar who wants to arrest Anders for murder in Awakening. I admit that there is a good chance that Anders may or may not have killed those templars, but there is absolutely no evidence. It's just as likely they were killed by the darkspawn. There isn't any evidence that Anders murdered them.
That very same templar, should we conscript Anders, decides to ignore the King (or Queen) as well as the Warden's rights with their power of conscription and decides to arrest Anders anyway. She's completely ignoring the crown and the accepted powers of the Warden to conscript ANYONE, be they king or criminal.
3. Thrask says that if Kerras caught up to the mages, he wouldn't even bother looking for another solution. It would simply be a bloodbath.
4. Alrik has been illegally tranquilizing mages for years, and if a mage passes their Harrowing, it's against Chantry law to tranquilize them.

It's not just Alrik. He's simply the most visible of the abusers.

A fair point. The mages need to realize they are not the only ones who suffer in the world but the templars also need to be reminded they exist to protect mages as much as to protect mundanes.
On your points:

1-That Anders was brough back seven times proves the Circle can be humane, all it takes is the right leadership. The templars that run Aneirin through probrably had a different Knight Commander.
2-Well, Anders did start a world war so, that female templar had a point in wanting his capture. I wish letting her hang him had any effect in DA2. Bloody maniac.
3 and 4- They are not fit to be templars. If only Thrask had been the Knight Commander...

And Connor's problem was one that could easily have been avoided if Isolde wasn't so frightened of what it would mean for her son to be in the Circle and desperately wanted to keep things secret. Jowan wouldn't even have been brought there but instead would've been caught (which he was until Loghain intervened).

My point was that even noble intentions can lead to a mage being possessed.

The Imperium rose without a history of mages being stigmatized. Then it became their culture.

The Chantry and anything that rises from the ashes, have that history and that stigma, so it's only natural that another Tevinter isn't doomed to happen as an alternative.

The Dalish formed and they aren't tevinter. The Chasind have never been conquered by Orlais or Tevinter, and while largely scattered, they and their mages aren't another Tevinter. Rivain and their seers (which could easily be a person possessed by a spirit of mercy, a spirit of faith) are most definitely NOT Tevinter either.

You can't claim the only alternative is Tevinter. There is more than enough proof of other cultures, even if they are small, that develop without the mages running a magocracy.

Like you said, those cultures survive because they are smaller in scale.
It's only natural for mages to abuse their powers to gain influence. People are greedy and selfish and, sadly, there is no hint of it ever changing.

Modifié par MisterJB, 10 juillet 2012 - 10:44 .

[Face of Evil]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The comparison is moot. Our modern-day society never had to deal the threat of demonic possession or blood magic. Magic was never responsible for the creation of a race of monsters that periodically try to destroy the world.

No, I was referring to the darkspawn. They were created through magic and hubris.

[dragonflight288]

Lambert only declared war after the mages declared independence. While his actions are not commendable, the mages burned the bridges first.

Umm...the mages never voted on independence. They were about to, but they never declared independence or even voted on it.

Now picture Al Capone with acess to blood magic.
Mundanes can be more dangerous than mages, no doubt, but it's rare. Especially if special measures are not taken to contain magic.

But it is possible. So why not lock up all mundanes as well for what they may potentially do?

The church can be greedy, of course, but Lothering was overflowing with refugees. I won't blame that Revered Mother for using any opportunity to earn the money they sorely needed.
Also, the way Anders treats other refugees has no bearing in his relation with the Chantry and Templars. After Alrik's death, he admits he hadn't even considered the possibility of figures of autorithy in both groups being sympathetic to the plight of the mages and would consider approaching them which suggests he hadn't considered the option before.

But he did try peaceful solutions to start with. And while he may not have considered the option before, he was open to it before Meredith came to power.

Well, no one can say Meredith is reasonable. If she doesn't see any evidence of blood magic, she simply assumes it is really well hidden. The solution should be removing her from power. Not start a world war.
The problem is that Anders was not interested in simply improving the conditions of the Kirkwall Circle, he wants the completely dissolution of the Circles which is an extreme much like the Tranquil Solution only on the other side of the fence.

No one here is calling for the dissolution of the Circle. If you support Orsino in the debate at the beginning of Act 3, you'll find nobles working together to get Meredith out of power. Thrask and his templars sought to get Meredith out of power. No one opposes this.

But Meredith punishes hundreds of people, condemning them to death for a crime none of them committed or had anything to do with beyond sharing a similar attribute as the guilty party. Lambert himself wants all the mages dead for the actions of a few bad eggs.

And I think it needs be mentioned and brought to the table that it wasn't the mages who started the war. It was Lambert and the templars. The mages hadn't even voted on independence (although they were about to). Lambert was staunchly opposed to any form of reformation of the Circle to make things easier on mages. He's the one who declared the Nevarran Accord to be hereby void so ALL mages, irregardless of criminal activity or not, would be killed. Most of the mages hadn't broken any laws. They just wanted more freedoms.

A fair point. The mages need to realize they are not the only ones who suffer in the world but the templars also need to be reminded they exist to protect mages as much as to protect mundanes.
On your points:

1-That Anders was brough back seven times proves the Circle can be humane, all it takes is the right leadership. The templars that run Aneirin through probrably had a different Knight Commander.
2-Well, Anders did start a world war so, that female templar had a point in wanting his capture. I wish letting her hang him had any effect in DA2. Bloody maniac.
3 and 4- They are not fit to be templars. If only Thrask had been the Knight Commander...

Glad to see you like my points. And your points may be true, but let me add another perspective.

1. Or it could simply be that the templar's who went after Aneirin simply wanted to kill a mage or they are prejudiced against elves. I honestly don't know.
2. Technically Anders didn't start a world war. The events of Asunder did. Anders simply brought all the issues into the limelight and made everyone jumpy.
As for Thrask, well, I kind of want to quote Holes to your statement on 'if only'

If only, if only the woodpecker sighs, etc lol. If only, but he isn't. And those two outranked him. Even Cullen's codex says he was mad Knight-Captain because he shared Meredith's views on mages. Those kind of people with their beliefs simply are the type of people who advanced in the templars. At least in Kirkwall, and world wide if Lambert is anything to go by.

My point was that even noble intentions can lead to a mage being possessed.

A fair point. The road to hell is paved with good intentions after all. lol.

But in all seriousness, Meredith only had good intentions as well. As did Loghain. And those non-mages did damage that affected entire countries.

Like you said, those cultures survive because they are smaller in scale.
It's only natural for mages to abuse their powers to gain influence. People are greedy and selfish and, sadly, there is no hint of it ever changing.

It's human nature. But my point was, that irregardless of the size of the culture, it is entirely possible a culture can grow without a tevinter. We simply don't know much about the Chasind. But they were able to gather armies large enough to threaten Tevinter and Orlais, so they had to be united at some point, and strong enough to threaten some of the greatest empires in Thedas. That simply cannot be discounted.

Mages won't form a magocracy in a society where the Andrastian faith has been. They have 1000 years of teachings against them to overcome. But people ARE losing faith in the Chantry and the templars because of the Templars own practices regarding mages and the families of mages.

There was a templar death squad killing non-mages in broad daylight who committed no crimes, after all. It's kind of hard to convince people the templars exist to defend when they do things like that.

[DPSSOC]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Let us see

1. Harrowing is a test that involve demons as the testers
- the demon (Mouse) told us everything about it
- they are your testers in your Harrowing

Kind of a leap there, Mouse tells you the very basics of the Harrowing so he knows what it means.  While that could be indicative of working with the Templars it could just as easily be indicative of the fact he's witnessed it before.

Nizaris1 wrote...
2. compare Harrowing with the Fade in Broken Circle and Fenril dream
- demons in the Harrowing are non hostile except Rage Demon and wisps
- Harrowing Fade is a set up place where the apprentice must go
- you must kill all the demons in Broken Circle fade and Fenril dream

The last bit actually isn't true, if you play as a rogue you can stealth past the majority of the demons in Broken Circle.  In Feynriel's dream you have to fight all the demons because you directly challenge them and they call in more.

Nizaris1 wrote...
3. Templars set up apprentices to fail
- by this they put fear to the apprentice about Harrowing and make them choose Rite of Tranquility to escape it. Owain is an example
- they can kill mages systematically and wash their hand
- they can control who the strong mage and weak mage in the Circle
- they have contracts with demons to make apparentice failed Harrowing

First point they don't do anything to really frighten you.  Gregoire points out once that if you fail your Harrowing you will die, that's it.  There is no attempt to make the Harrowing seem terrifying or insurmountable he just illustrates the consequences of failure.

Second point I ask again how do they do this?  How do the Templars contact and consort with demons without the aid of mages?  Your conspiracy here requires not only that the Knight Commander be in on it but also the First Enchanter and every single mage involved in the Harrowing (we see 4 I think).

Edit: You know what, simpler question, how do they get a spirit to agree to work with 3 demons?

Nizaris1 wrote...
4. Templar use Blood Magic
- Phylactery is Blood Magic
- Blood Magic always have relationship with demons
- they use demons to hunt down escaped mages

1) No.
2) No.
3) You'd think they'd be a lot better at it then.

Nizaris1 wrote...
5. Templar got possessed
- not only mages who got possessed but Templar too
- there are a lot of possessed Templar in broken Circle
- Wilmord and Keran is the best example in DA2
- Meredith also

Anyone can become possessed, when the veil's been ripped open and demons are pouring out it becomes a battle of wills; yours vs theirs and the Templars were neither prepared nor adequately trained.
Wilmod was possessed forcibly by a mage
Kerran was never possessed
Meredith was never possessed, just crazy.

Nizaris1 wrote...

so what? i am not English speaking, if i use the wrong word, doesn't mean i wrong, just wrong word.

Maybe the right word is RANDOMLY

The word you want is consecutively.

Modifié par DPSSOC, 11 juillet 2012 - 12:57 .

[TEWR]

Face of Evil wrote...

No, I was referring to the darkspawn. They were created through magic and hubris.

I got that. I just wanted to make a joke.

And again, I highly doubt the Magisters were the source of Darkspawn everywhere. The source of the first Awakened Darkspawn is what I believe, but the source of the first Darkspawn in existence? I don't buy it.

[IanPolaris]

I believe that Phylacteries per WoG is in fact a form of blood magic, and yes that means the Templars and Chantry are being highly hypocritical on this issue.

-Polaris

[dragonflight288]

@DPSSOC

Um, Gaider outright stated the phylacterie's IS blood magic. So yes, the templars use blood magic, added in to the lesser spirit magic spells they already use but refuse to acknowledge as magic.

[Captain Cornhole]

JSlither wrote...

Convince me that the Templars locking mages up in a tower is a better alternative than them being free and attending a school that teaches them about magic and being a mage.

Can you teach a sex offender to give up molesting inocent individuals? 

[TEWR]

I can't recall it being suggested outside this codex entry that qunari assign life intrinsic value

It was stated by Sten in DAO in certain party banters as well as developer comments on the forums

. I give the qunari the benefit of the doubt on this one and their behaviour when annexing support that they are not burdened by such ideas, at least not especially so. For instance they kill all influential people that do not convert. No brain poison for them as their continued existance can inspire resistance. That's what the Arishok gathered the nobles up in the Keep to do. For Hawke it would have been the qun with Merrill shipped off to have her mouth sewn shut or death. No third option to go to the mines and live happily ever after.

Well, I'd also suggest that Merrill has the possibility of becoming Ben-Hassrath, were she to convert.

I highly doubt she would convert, but Mages are allowed to become Ben-Hassrath where they're not watched as stringently. So it's not as simple as "Cut out her tongue" or "Mind rape her into servitude". Those aren't the only two options, as the Kossith in Act III will tell a Mage Hawke that he/she could become Ben-Hassrath. Just as much, Sten will refer to any Warden that finds his sword as an ashkaari.

Obviously having people alive has instrumental value to anyone aspiring to rule the world and I'd expect the Triumvirate to take that into consideration but there's no getting around people dieing in droves when you show up to turn their lives upside down, compel them to denounce their gods and take up a life of mandatory labour.

To be fair to them, they don't want to rule the world out of some sort of "It's ours for the taking!" mindset. It's more out of a "We've developed a society where things act as they should, we should share that belief...... BY FORCE IF NEED BE" type of scenario.

They're not evil IMO.  

Sten's talk about the treaty only further proves my point that the DA2 entry makes no sense. He says they will be back to conquer when the time is right. This fits much better if you left because the enemy was too strong at the time, because of mages in their ranks, than if you left because people were dieing even though you were winning with ease.

You're thinking that all they care about is winning. That's only part of it. What use is winning the lands of an entire country if its citizenry have been reduced to piles upon piles of corpses?

You're assuming they don't care about people, when that's definitely not the case. Talk to Sten about Tal-Vashoth and he'll tell you a story about what happened when he investigated the disappearance of a village's friends, the source behind it being the Tal-Vashoth.

Talk to him about why he was in that cage, and tell him what he did was horrible. He won't deny it, and we have dev comments stating that he would never forgive himself for what he did to the farmers.

To assume the Qunari don't care about life -- or to assume they only care about it because it's useful -- is a gross misrepresentation of the Qunari themselves.

And considering all I've just said, I'd like to end this part of my post with a half-serious, half-joking....

Anaan Esaam Qun.

Retreating and letting the enemy rebuild can only be expected to increase the overall amount of casualities if, like Sten, you take it as a given that you are coming back to finish the job.

Not if they prepare their armies. They've faced Tevinter incursions for decades beyond counting, and Fenris himself believes they're saving up their strength for when they truly want to invade.

Thedas was driven to near-bankruptcy during the Qunari Wars. The Qunari don't really have to worry about that, because everything in their lands is distributed evenly.

Also, they have a presence in Rivain still I think. I'm certain that they know of the Chantry's massacre of the Qunari there, but chose not to act on it immediately.

Remember, they also have spies hidden throughout the land. Some have defected, some haven't.

[IanPolaris]

Captain Cornhole wrote...

JSlither wrote...

Convince me that the Templars locking mages up in a tower is a better alternative than them being free and attending a school that teaches them about magic and being a mage.

Can you teach a sex offender to give up molesting inocent individuals? 

That's a horribly inaccurate and offensive comparison.  A mage apparely only has a VERY SMALL chance of ever going abomination (and even then it's not always violent per WoG),  A sex offender even if treated has a virtually 100% chance of harming someone in their lives.  The two are not a valid comparison, and frankly shame on you for even bringing it up.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  In addition, a Sex Offender CHOOSES to violate someone else.  They may have a psychological need, but they DO CHOOSE.  A mage doesn't get to choose being a mage.  It's also worth noting that we don't go around jailing sex offenders just because some test or genetics suggest they may be a sex offender.  One is jailed/incarcerated for what one has DONE.  Huge difference.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 11 juillet 2012 - 01:45 .

[MisterJB]

dragonflight288 wrote...
Umm...the mages never voted on independence. They were about to, but they never declared independence or even voted on it.

They did after their escape.

But it is possible. So why not lock up all mundanes as well for what they may potentially do?

Mages are more dangerous. And it's, obviously, not feasible or desirable.

But he did try peaceful solutions to start with. And while he may not have considered the option before, he was open to it before Meredith came to power.

Peaceful solutions? What, Anders wrote a strongly worded letter to Meredith or something akin to that?

No one here is calling for the dissolution of the Circle.

Well, it has already happened. That's how the war starts in Asunder.
After their escape, all of the surviving First Enchanters voted for independence. The Circle is no more.

If you support Orsino in the debate at the beginning of Act 3, you'll find nobles working together to get Meredith out of power. Thrask and his templars sought to get Meredith out of power. No one opposes this.

But Meredith punishes hundreds of people, condemning them to death for a crime none of them committed or had anything to do with beyond sharing a similar attribute as the guilty party. Lambert himself wants all the mages dead for the actions of a few bad eggs.

Like I said, the elected representatives of the mages have voten for independence. Even if I don't agree with his actions, it's not just a few bad eggs.
And yes, Meredith should have just executed Anders in the street if she was so concerned about an angry mob. If that wasn't enough, she should have protected the Circle of Magi from the people of Kirkwall and forced them to return to their homes. it was her duty. Even if slaughtering the entirety of the Circle would save more lives in the short run, protecting them could have preserved the status quo, avoiding the war entirely.

And I think it needs be mentioned and brought to the table that it wasn't the mages who started the war. It was Lambert and the templars. The mages hadn't even voted on independence (although they were about to). Lambert was staunchly opposed to any form of reformation of the Circle to make things easier on mages. He's the one who declared the Nevarran Accord to be hereby void so ALL mages, irregardless of criminal activity or not, would be killed. Most of the mages hadn't broken any laws. They just wanted more freedoms.

Did you read "Asunder"? Lambert only declared the Nevarran Accord null after the mages escaped and voted their independence. Previously, he had stormed the conclave only because there was strong evidence Rhys was the serial killer of the White Spire and had murdered the only cured Tranquil in the world before he could be presented, newly Tranquil again, to the conclave. Lambert did not demand the conclave ended, only that Rhys be taken into custody, and it turned into violence because the Libertarians resisted.
Lambert was prejudiced but here, I tought he was just fulfilling his duty. Turns out it was a Libertarian, Adrian, that had commited the murder and planted the evidence in Rhys' quarters to incite that exact response. She and Anders would get along marvelously.

It's human nature. But my point was, that irregardless of the size of the culture, it is entirely possible a culture can grow without a tevinter. We simply don't know much about the Chasind. But they were able to gather armies large enough to threaten Tevinter and Orlais, so they had to be united at some point, and strong enough to threaten some of the greatest empires in Thedas. That simply cannot be discounted.

Mages won't form a magocracy in a society where the Andrastian faith has been. They have 1000 years of teachings against them to overcome. But people ARE losing faith in the Chantry and the templars because of the Templars own practices regarding mages and the families of mages.

There was a templar death squad killing non-mages in broad daylight who committed no crimes, after all. It's kind of hard to convince people the templars exist to defend when they do things like that.

Tevienter remains a magocracy. It would be harder in, say, Ferelden but I mantain we need to mantain a more constant watch on mages.
That doesn't mean they can't be given more freedoms but mages and mundanes are not born equal and thus, equality between them is impossible.

Modifié par MisterJB, 11 juillet 2012 - 01:50 .