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[Daerog]

IanPolaris wrote...

Actually this has happened [in Thedas I mean], i.e. Templars killing a non-mage because they THOUGHT a person was performing unsanctioned magic when they weren't in fact doing magic at all.

-Polaris

Really? I don't remember this mentioned before... was it in Asunder? I haven't read Asunder yet.

Well, as long as the guy wasn't actually a mage or a noble, no body cares.

"Oh no! They killed Peasant Paul!"
"Didn't he work at the docks?"
"I already spoke with his boss, got his job now."
"Well, might as well loot the corpse before the city elves get to it. Can I have the boots?"
"Wait, hold up, a hero is coming through, you know they get first dibs to looting stuff in the street."
"Damnit, I bet that's who stole by Worn Leather Gloves behind my house, set them down, walk inside, gone. I've had to buy those same blasted gloves three times from the same vendor across the street."

[Plaintiff]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

And people in general aren't suddenly going to become supportive unless the Chantry completely changes the message of its propoganda, or a group of equal power arises to preach the opposite of what the Chantry is already saying.

Like the Imperial Chantry, which will likely gain more influence during this mage-templar war, if they want.

speaking of Xavier, this is kind of like mutant registration... except there are also demons/spirits involved and it isn't so random. Its like a mix of x-men and star wars. Edit: With a dash of The Exorcist.

Anyway, whoever wins, the dwarves win with extra markets for lyrium and weapons and mercenaries. Edit: and the peasants lose of course.

It's almost exactly like the situation in X-Men, in fact. Mutants and mages can both potentially be very helpful or very harmful, and some are unable to control their powers despite their best efforts and go on destructive rampages (like abominations), and some mutants feel that they are superior to humanity and aim to take control of it and/or wipe it out entirely.

The only difference is that despite the moral ambiguity of the issue, and the fact that all sides present valid arguments, the tone of the story causes audiences to be overwhelmingly sympathetic towards mutants in general, and the idealism of Xavier and the X-Men in particular.

It's also similar to the issue of augmentation in Deus Ex: HR where augmented individuals face discrimination due to paranoia from the populace about "losing our humanity" or the potential for military application.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

It's almost exactly like the situation in X-Men, in fact. Mutants and mages can both potentially be very helpful or very harmful, and some are unable to control their powers despite their best efforts and go on destructive rampages (like abominations), and some mutants feel that they are superior to humanity and aim to take control of it and/or wipe it out entirely.

The only difference is that despite the moral ambiguity of the issue, and the fact that all sides present valid arguments, the tone of the story causes audiences to be overwhelmingly sympathetic towards mutants in general, and the idealism of Xavier and the X-Men in particular.

It's also similar to the issue of augmentation in Deus Ex: HR where augmented individuals face discrimination due to paranoia from the populace about "losing our humanity" or the potential for military application.

Not exactly like X-Men.
As far as I know, mutants don't get possesed by demons and they weren't responsible for some of the greatest disasters in history.
And still the government wants to lock them up. Which is very realistic and sensible.
Xavier might be (or appear)idelistic, but only a fool would trust someone who can brainwash you.

So if modern, more liberal and educated governments with more resources would lock up mutants - then how much more sensible is it for the poeple of TheDas to want mages locked up?

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 12 juillet 2012 - 06:54 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...
Actually this has happened [in Thedas I mean], i.e. Templars killing a non-mage because they THOUGHT a person was performing unsanctioned magic when they weren't in fact doing magic at all.

-Polaris

You mean like police officers shooting a suspect because they thought he had a gun?
Golly gee, I bet that menas police officers are all evil and we must abolish police.

Templars are warriors. Soldiers. In tense and dangerous situations you react reflexively or instinctively in a split second; which is perfectly normal. It's not evil. It's not malice.

[Plaintiff]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Not exactly like X-Men.
As far as I know, mutants don't get possesed by demons and they weren't responsible for some of the greatest disasters in history.

Ugh. You again.

No, mutants are not specifically more vulnerable to demon possession (if demons even exist in the Marvel Universe; I am not clear on this point). But the clear analogue is that some struggle to control their powers and may unintentionally unleash devastation, so, in a functional sense, they are identical to abominations.

Jean Grey, just as an example, is a powerful telekinetic mutant who, despite trying her best to be a force for good, has occasionally lost control of her powers, or been possessed by an extremely powerful entity known as the Phoenix Force. Under its influence, she once consumed a sun and doomed all the lifeforms of that surrounding system to death.

And still the government wants to lock them up. Which is very realistic and sensible.

Not very realisitic at all when they can fly or walk through walls, like Warren Wothington or Kitty Pryde, and not very sensible when they can kill you just by opening their eyes, like Scott Summers

Also extremely hypocritical when one considers that the Marvel Universe also features superpowered individuals like Captain America and the Fantastic Four who act with impunity and receive widespread praise for their efforts, purely by virtue of the fact that they are not genetic mutants, and instead had their DNA altered by outside substances, either deliberately or by accident.
 

Xavier might be (or appear)idelistic, but only a fool would trust someone who can brainwash you.

By the same token, only a fool would antagonize such an individual. His powers are not limited to mere thought control. He can cause individuals great pain or even kill them.

So if modern, more liberal and educated governments with more resources would lock up mutants - then how much more sensible is it for the poeple of TheDas to want mages locked up?

You assume that I unquestioningly approve of the actions of modern governments either in fiction or real life simply by virtue of their being "more modern" and (according to you) "more liberal"?

Let me assure you, this is not the case.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 12 juillet 2012 - 07:47 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Nizaris1 wrote...

* SNIPPED LONG RAMBLING *

if using Chantry method...my people should lock up all white people who come in this country or white people who born in this country, just because they are born white, and thus they are dangerous...they maybe become "abomination" destroying this country......or whatever reason to justify it...

is it right? NO, it is not right....we cannot treat people such just because they are born as they are.

Apples and oranges.
Race has too little of an affect. The differences are superficial/cosmetic/light. A white man or a black man don't really differ much. In other words, the differences are too small and to meaningless.

Not so for the mages.

[Urzon]

Yes, there are demons and devils in the Marvel Universe, and they do use humans as pawns in their plans sometimes.

They usually belong in Doctor Strange's neck of the woods, but i'm sure they do branch into other storylines sometimes.

Modifié par Urzon, 12 juillet 2012 - 07:37 .

[Plaintiff]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
You mean like police officers shooting a suspect because they thought he had a gun?

Yeah, exactly like that.

Obviously you are unaware that, even for policemen, shooting an unarmed suspect is a) against procedure and illegal. It would be cause for a stringent internal investigation, the officer in question would likely go to court. At best, he would likely be fired, and the incident would be a media circus.

Golly gee, I bet that menas police officers are all evil and we must abolish police.

Evil does not come into the equation

If a policeman is incapable of telling firearms apart from wallets, candy bars, housekeys or any number of harmless handheld objects, he should be fired.

If a templar is incapable of telling the difference between spellcasting and merely yelling in a foreign language, then he is an incompetent racist and, likewise, ought to be fired.

Templars are warriors. Soldiers. In tense and dangerous situations you react reflexively or instinctively in a split second; which is perfectly normal. It's not evil. It's not malice.

It's just illegal.

In our modern society, soldiers who kill civilians have to answer for their actions in a courtroom, just as they would have to for any other instance of gross misconduct or incompetence.

If the Chantry actually bothered to pull its thumb out of its ass and enforce its own laws, Templars would be in the same boat.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 12 juillet 2012 - 07:43 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...
The problem remains that men, women, and children are being locked up for being mages. They haven't done anything, and people will always struggle for freedom. Look at the Rights of Annulment, look at Aldenon the Great and his rebel mages who fought against the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars because they saw the system as slavery. Even the mage protagonist can ask for his people to be emancipated from the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars. The notion of freedom from this system has existed for a long time, and it's never going to dissipate.

Men, women and children are also locked up for a variety of other reasons. Have the men, women and children that happened to be at a viral ground zero done anything? Nope.
Are we justified in lockign them up in a quarantene zone? Yes.
Are they justified in trying to break out of that zone and into your home? What would you do if one DID break into your home.


There isn't a perfect system. Take anything from a man and he will rebel. The very fact that someone else has something he doesn't will eat away at him. The best prison in the world is still a prison, and peope will always want more than they have.
Just as there will always be prison riots, no matter how comfty or cozy prisons are; so there will be riots in mage Circles occasionally - no matter how much leavy the mages get. It will never be enough.

And yet you really have choice.

I've yet to hear of a system proposed that would be less prone to abuse or safer for everyone. People keep talking about "check and balances" but not how such check and balanced would be implemented. Nor the implications.
There is a fine balance between control/oversight and efficiency.

[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...

For the others, to clarify on the math:

If we assume that 1:100 is a mage, then the chance that as few as 20 people has at least one mage is 1 - P{Chance that 20 people have no mages}. That works out to be about an 18% chance that at least one person in a group of 20 will have at least one mage. 20 is the size of a large family. If we extend this out to 40 (about the size of the smallest reasonable tribe or clan), the change leaps to about 33%.

That means that in a group of say 40, every third generation will have at least one mage, and if 1:2 goes abomination, that means that once every six generations you have an abomination. Assuming the Abomination wipes out 90% of the population (which is essentially what the Chantry would have you believe), then every 6 generations a group of 40 gets reduced to a group of four.

There's a word for that: Extinction.

Ergo either the number of mages is too high (but the game play and other sources indicate that 1:100 seems to be a pretty reasonable estimate), or the rate of abomination is far, FAR lower than what the chantry would have you think.

-Polaris

All of your numbers are way off.

I can pull number out of my ass too. And I can pull more sensible numbers too.
1:100? That's not that rare. Try 1:1000. That royally fraks up your math.

And you assume all of those mages live to become abominations? How many would die young (for a veriety of reasons)? How many would be killed or exiled the second they displayed magic? This also throws a BIG spanner in your mathworks.

You assume half the mages become abominations. We dont' have numbers of the ratio, but I postulate that it's smaller. If that many mages fall down regularly, then no one would bother with the Circles.

Lastly, kill 90% or population? That would depend, wouldn't it? It's possible an entire tribe would be wiped out. It's possible they would be lucky/smart and swarm the abomination as it transofrms and take it out rather fast.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Plaintiff wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
You mean like police officers shooting a suspect because they thought he had a gun?

Yeah, exactly like that.

Obviously you are unaware that, even for policemen, shooting an unarmed suspect is a) against procedure and illegal. It would be cause for a stringent internal investigation, the officer in question would likely go to court. At best, he would likely be fired, and the incident would be a media circus.

It's not agaisnt the procedure to defend yourself. Humans arne't perfect and neither are our perceptions.
The suspect in question had something in his hand that resembled a gun. The officer reacts. It turns out it wasn't a gun. Tragic, but understandable. If it was a gun and the officer hesitated, he would be dead.

Also, Thedas is not the modern world, so ther would be no media circus. Also, how do you a prove a dead man wasn't a mage?

If a policeman is incapable of telling firearms apart from wallets, candy bars, housekeys or any number of harmless handheld objects, he should be fired.

If a templar is incapable of telling the difference between spellcasting and merely yelling in a foreign language, then he is an incompetent racist and, likewise, ought to be fired.

Because humans are perfect creatures and always able to tell everything perfectly apart, under any conditions?

You do realise that you would fail your own standards?

It's just illegal.

Frak legality. Everything can be made legal and illegal (depending on government). I don't care if it's legal or not, I care if its SENSIBLE or not.

In our modern society, soldiers who kill civilians have to answer for their actions in a courtroom, just as they would have to for any other instance of gross misconduct or incompetence.

If the Chantry actually bothered to pull its thumb out of its ass and enforce its own laws, Templars would be in the same boat.

Except you forget to take into account....EVERYTHNIG ELSE.
Like no forensics, witnesses and all the other stuff that actually leads to said soldier stepping into the courtroom.

Because I'm sure that was quite frequent in ancient times....

[IanPolaris]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Actually this has happened [in Thedas I mean], i.e. Templars killing a non-mage because they THOUGHT a person was performing unsanctioned magic when they weren't in fact doing magic at all.

-Polaris

You mean like police officers shooting a suspect because they thought he had a gun?
Golly gee, I bet that menas police officers are all evil and we must abolish police.

Templars are warriors. Soldiers. In tense and dangerous situations you react reflexively or instinctively in a split second; which is perfectly normal. It's not evil. It's not malice.

Actually if a police officer shoots a suspect and it turns out it was a TOY gun (just as an example) that police officer is in a lot of trouble.  At best he'll probably lose his job.  At worst, he goes to jail.  There is strong accountability when using deadly force which is why modern police are going more and more towards TASERs and other non-lethal alternatives.

-Polaris

[Lotion Soronarr]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Lotion Soronar wrote...
Apples and oranges.
Race has too little of an affect. The differences are superficial/cosmetic/light. A white man or a black man don't really differ much. In other words, the differences are too small and to meaningless.

Not so for the mages.

Are you denying history?

Nope. Are you denying common sense?

White people always claim they re superior than any other races, they love to invade east. In history how much eastern people invading the west? How much of eastern people making western people slaves?

Similar in DA when Chantry treat people who born mages the same way and spread propaganda about mages. It is all the same

Not sure what you talking about.

But regardless what you think white people think or say - that's exactly that. Nothing more than words without real weight. Doesn't matter if a black man calls a white man dangerous or a white man calls a black man dangerous or whatever. In reality that danger doesn't exist. That superiority/danger is immaginary.

Not so for mages. The difference and danger is VERY real.

[Plaintiff]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
It's not agaisnt the procedure to defend yourself.

Shooting an unarmed person is not "defending yourself". It is called "excessive force" and it is a crime.

Humans arne't perfect and neither are our perceptions.
The suspect in question had something in his hand that resembled a gun. The officer reacts. It turns out it wasn't a gun. Tragic, but understandable. If it was a gun and the officer hesitated, he would be dead.

As a police officer, he is required to keep his cool in extreme circumstances. If he can't, then he should not be a police officer.

Also, Thedas is not the modern world, so ther would be no media circus. Also, how do you a prove a dead man wasn't a mage?

Whether or not Thedas has media is irrelevent. I was pointing out that your analogy is completely stupid, because when policemen shoot innocents, people get pissed.

As for how you tell if a dead man is a mage or not? Gosh, I don't know, the Templars could try simply asking people who knew him. But then, since any Templar would have to be a moron to get in such a situation in the first place, he'd probably kill all of his previous victim's friends and family for speaking the same "heathen gobbledegook".

Because humans are perfect creatures and always able to tell everything perfectly apart, under any conditions?

When your job involves handling deadly weapons and any mistakes could result in the death of an innocent person? Yes, you had damn well better be perfect, or face the goddamn consequences! If you can't do that, then turn in your gun and your badge and find a job you're better suited for.

You do realise that you would fail your own standards?

Which is why I dont do any work that involves handling a weapon! Funny that!

Frak legality. Everything can be made legal and illegal (depending on government). I don't care if it's legal or not, I care if its SENSIBLE or not.

Is it "sensible" to give a gun to a trigger-happy twit with poor eyesight?

Is it "sensible" to give a mage-hunting position to a man who apparently doesn't know what magic looks like?

Except you forget to take into account....EVERYTHNIG ELSE.
Like no forensics, witnesses and all the other stuff that actually leads to said soldier stepping into the courtroom.

Because I'm sure that was quite frequent in ancient times....

Yeah, I'm sure nobody was there to witness the murder of a frightened Chasind man. Oh wait! Except for everyone in the market square!

Also, did you forget that Thedas has magic? Magic that can be used to locate missing persons and objects? Magic that can be used to force people to tell the truth?

[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Actually this has happened [in Thedas I mean], i.e. Templars killing a non-mage because they THOUGHT a person was performing unsanctioned magic when they weren't in fact doing magic at all.

-Polaris

You mean like police officers shooting a suspect because they thought he had a gun?
Golly gee, I bet that menas police officers are all evil and we must abolish police.

Templars are warriors. Soldiers. In tense and dangerous situations you react reflexively or instinctively in a split second; which is perfectly normal. It's not evil. It's not malice.

Actually if a police officer shoots a suspect and it turns out it was a TOY gun (just as an example) that police officer is in a lot of trouble.  At best he'll probably lose his job.  At worst, he goes to jail.  There is strong accountability when using deadly force which is why modern police are going more and more towards TASERs and other non-lethal alternatives.

Which is both stupid and irrelevant.
Templars don't have tasers. And Tasers are both unreliable and have a very short range. That's very bad for the police officer. You use non-deadly force WHEN PRACTICAL.

And still doesn't touch up on the issue of proving guilt.

[IanPolaris]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

For the others, to clarify on the math:

If we assume that 1:100 is a mage, then the chance that as few as 20 people has at least one mage is 1 - P{Chance that 20 people have no mages}. That works out to be about an 18% chance that at least one person in a group of 20 will have at least one mage. 20 is the size of a large family. If we extend this out to 40 (about the size of the smallest reasonable tribe or clan), the change leaps to about 33%.

That means that in a group of say 40, every third generation will have at least one mage, and if 1:2 goes abomination, that means that once every six generations you have an abomination. Assuming the Abomination wipes out 90% of the population (which is essentially what the Chantry would have you believe), then every 6 generations a group of 40 gets reduced to a group of four.

There's a word for that: Extinction.

Ergo either the number of mages is too high (but the game play and other sources indicate that 1:100 seems to be a pretty reasonable estimate), or the rate of abomination is far, FAR lower than what the chantry would have you think.

-Polaris

All of your numbers are way off.

Actually my numbers are very reasonable and if anything conservative.

I can pull number out of my ass too. And I can pull more sensible numbers too.
1:100? That's not that rare. Try 1:1000. That royally fraks up your math.

Actually it doesn't, and the lore and game play show that mages are far, far more common than 1:1000.  Consider that the Kirkwall circle houses thousands of mages (per the codex entries) and even the Fereldan Circle houses hundreds.  We also see mages both normal and tranquil pretty much in any civilized setting that is larger than a small village...and these are the mages permitted to leave the circle.  We also know that Dalish Clans that number less than 100 per clan have at least two and often more (Zathrian's Clan had at least three) mages.

Given that we are told that Thedas has population numbers like that of middle ages Europe, 1:100 mage to normal ratio is very reasonable and might be on the conservative low end.

And you assume all of those mages live to become abominations? How many would die young (for a veriety of reasons)? How many would be killed or exiled the second they displayed magic? This also throws a BIG spanner in your mathworks.

Why would a mage die young any more than anyone else.  Indeed given their magic, a mage child would have a greater chance of surviving the rough and tumble of growing up.  Remember we are talking about primitive societies that don't (yet) have any ingrained attitudes against magical children.  The beauty of my argument using ratios is that the effect cancels out (since mundane children can die young too).  You are assuming the thing you are trying to prove when you make the above statement.  That is a mistake.

You assume half the mages become abominations. We dont' have numbers of the ratio, but I postulate that it's smaller. If that many mages fall down regularly, then no one would bother with the Circles.

The Chantry would have you think that ANY unsupervised mage (and I mean trained mages) are liable to become abominations just by having a bad hair day.  It's part and parcel of their fear mongering (sorry but that's what it is).  If what the chantry says is true, then the ratio would be at least 1:2.  The fact you say it has to be lower only supports the argument I am making....you do realize this, yes?

Lastly, kill 90% or population? That would depend, wouldn't it? It's possible an entire tribe would be wiped out. It's possible they would be lucky/smart and swarm the abomination as it transofrms and take it out rather fast.

A small tribe would number from 40 (low end) to perhaps a hundred (high end) and we know the damage that abominations can do.  90% is  very reasonable figure in such a situation especially if one becomes abomination-crazy without warning like the Chantry likes to claim (and like DA2 tried to sell us....if you didn't read the codex entries that explained why Kirkwall was ATYPICAL).

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Actually this has happened [in Thedas I mean], i.e. Templars killing a non-mage because they THOUGHT a person was performing unsanctioned magic when they weren't in fact doing magic at all.

-Polaris

You mean like police officers shooting a suspect because they thought he had a gun?
Golly gee, I bet that menas police officers are all evil and we must abolish police.

Templars are warriors. Soldiers. In tense and dangerous situations you react reflexively or instinctively in a split second; which is perfectly normal. It's not evil. It's not malice.

Actually if a police officer shoots a suspect and it turns out it was a TOY gun (just as an example) that police officer is in a lot of trouble.  At best he'll probably lose his job.  At worst, he goes to jail.  There is strong accountability when using deadly force which is why modern police are going more and more towards TASERs and other non-lethal alternatives.

Which is both stupid and irrelevant.
Templars don't have tasers. And Tasers are both unreliable and have a very short range. That's very bad for the police officer. You use non-deadly force WHEN PRACTICAL.

And still doesn't touch up on the issue of proving guilt.

You made a comparison, and I just shot it down.  Deal with it.  The FACT is that modern police officers have strict accountability when using deadly force and Templars don't.

-Polaris

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
It's not agaisnt the procedure to defend yourself.[/quote]
Shooting an unarmed person is not "defending yourself". It is called "excessive force" and it is a crime. [/quote]

Being a general after the battle much?
If you thought you were in danger you WERE defending yourself.


[quote]
[quote]Humans arne't perfect and neither are our perceptions.
The suspect in question had something in his hand that resembled a gun. The officer reacts. It turns out it wasn't a gun. Tragic, but understandable. If it was a gun and the officer hesitated, he would be dead.[/quote]
As a police officer, he is required to keep his cool in extreme circumstances. If he can't, then he should not be a police officer.[/quote]

There is a difference between keeping your cool and being stupid.



[quote]
Whether or not Thedas has media is irrelevent. I was pointing out that your analogy is completely stupid, because when policemen shoot innocents, people get pissed. [/quote]


[quote]
As for how you tell if a dead man is a mage or not? Gosh, I don't know, the Templars could try simply asking people who knew him. [/quote]

You mean, ask the locals who know nothing about magic or mages?
Aks about a maleficar who could have easily be hiding his magical powers? Because..you know.... mages advertise their presence.

And then there is the question of the validity of the testimoty. It becomes a word agaisnt a word.



[quote]
When your job involves handling deadly weapons and any mistakes could result in the death of an innocent person? Yes, you had damn well better be perfect, or face the goddamn consequences! If you can't do that, then turn in your gun and your badge and find a job you're better suited for.[/quote]

There is no perfection. Are you that stupid?


[quote]
[quote]You do realise that you would fail your own standards?[/quote]
Which is why I dont do any work that involves handling a weapon! Funny that![/quote]

Because you know you set impossible standards.....




[quote][quote]
Frak legality. Everything can be made legal and illegal (depending on government). I don't care if it's legal or not, I care if its SENSIBLE or not.[/quote]
Is it "sensible" to give a gun to a trigger-happy twit with poor eyesight?

Is it "sensible" to give a mage-hunting position to a man who apparently doesn't know what magic looks like?[/quote]

Trigger hapy? Poor eyesight? Only in your head.

And magic? Tell me, what DOES magic look like? Have you ever in real life faced something that looks or sounds like something else?



[quote][quote]
Except you forget to take into account....EVERYTHNIG ELSE.
Like no forensics, witnesses and all the other stuff that actually leads to said soldier stepping into the courtroom.

Because I'm sure that was quite frequent in ancient times....[/quote]
Yeah, I'm sure nobody was there to witness the murder of a frightened Chasind man. Oh wait! Except for everyone in the market square!

Also, did you forget that Thedas has magic? Magic that can be used to locate missing persons and objects? Magic that can be used to force people to tell the truth?[/quote]

Nope. Don't work that way.

First of all, the witnesses don't know magic. So how can they know he wasn't a mage?
Secondly, you cannot use magic for force the truth out of someone who doesn't know the truth.
Thirdly, mind-control magic is forbidden and templar would be resistant to it anyway.

[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...
You made a comparison, and I just shot it down.  Deal with it.  The FACT is that modern police officers have strict accountability when using deadly force and Templars don't.

-Polaris

You shot down nothing. Deal with it.

The FACT is that the smae levels of overight and acountabiltiy is impossible in TheDas. And the fact is that some of our modern laws are rather retarded anyway.

[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...
Actually my numbers are very reasonable and if anything conservative.

I'm sure you think that way.
I, and many others, disagree.

Given that we are told that Thedas has population numbers like that of middle ages Europe, 1:100 mage to normal ratio is very reasonable and might be on the conservative low end.

I disagree. We don't even know the toal population of the countreis in question.

And you assume all of those mages live to become abominations? How many would die young (for a veriety of reasons)? How many would be killed or exiled the second they displayed magic? This also throws a BIG spanner in your mathworks.

Why would a mage die young any more than anyone else.  Indeed given their magic, a mage child would have a greater chance of surviving the rough and tumble of growing up.  Remember we are talking about primitive societies that don't (yet) have any ingrained attitudes against magical children.  The beauty of my argument using ratios is that the effect cancels out (since mundane children can die young too).  You are assuming the thing you are trying to prove when you make the above statement.  That is a mistake.

How does having magic increase early age survival? Magioc doesn't manifest untill later.
and magic = unknown. Plenty of reason to fear it. Especially for early, primitive societies.

So your argument doens't work. Sorry.

And I see you compeltely ignore the argument that mages may have started appearing later.

You assume half the mages become abominations. We dont' have numbers of the ratio, but I postulate that it's smaller. If that many mages fall down regularly, then no one would bother with the Circles.

The Chantry would have you think that ANY unsupervised mage (and I mean trained mages) are liable to become abominations just by having a bad hair day.  It's part and parcel of their fear mongering (sorry but that's what it is).  If what the chantry says is true, then the ratio would be at least 1:2.  The fact you say it has to be lower only supports the argument I am making....you do realize this, yes?

Nope. Sorry, but 1 out of 3 or 1 out of 4 mages becoming abominatiosn is still a LOT.
That you want to assign a very specific ratio to some wording to justify your views is YOUR problem.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 12 juillet 2012 - 08:43 .

[Urzon]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Are you denying history?

White people always claim they re superior than any other races, they love to invade east. In history how much eastern people invading the west? How much of eastern people making western people slaves?

If you are good at math, start counting now.

Western people (WHITE) is popular as a race who love to take slaves from other races...from Greek to Rome history, british and modern USA history...why? because white people treat other races as "lesser people", up to today western people called us in the east as "third world people" which means lesser than the west

Nowadays you guys in the west calling us in the east as a THREAT, axis of evil, anti-christ, and so many much more in your western propaganda

Just look at Hollywood...all races/countries on earth are bad except USA, except white people...eastern people being shown as stupid, dirty, unshaven, oppressed, carrying gun everywhere, have brutal face, dangerous and contagious...ect

It's nice to know that overgeneralization is alive and healthy. When has the western world been all white again? I'm sure some of my friends will be interested to hear about their sudden change of ethnicity.

I won't deny that slavery in the US is a dark spot on our history, but i wouldn't bring ancient civilizations like the Greeks and Romans into the equaltion. Before the 1500s, slavery (or some form of it) was a part of life in all parts of the world, East and West.