673 réponses à ce sujet

[Treacherous J Slither]

What happened to Thrask was nothing short of a tragedy. He was a good man. He knew that what the Templars were doing was wrong and felt that there needed to be a better way so he sided with the MAGES.

[Zanallen]

I side with the Templars because mages are too dangerous to be allowed to run free. They need some form of regulation. Could the Chantry lighten the leash a bit? Sure, but we aren't given that choice.

[GodWood]

JSlither wrote...
Don't allow mages freedom and they instead will fight for it. Lore wise it's just not smart to ****** these guys off.

You ignorantly assume the 'freedom' of the outside world is better then the safety of the tower.

Whilst the mages are secure in their tower with free food, education, accomodation, protection and the opportunities for prestigious career opportunities the rest of Fereldan's common folk are poor, disadvantages workers, constantly toiling away just to make ends meet, constantly unde threat from bandits and monsters and contantly exploited by their noble 'betters'.

Any mage who fights for this 'freedom' is a ****ing ******.

How anyone can believe in a "Magic Sky Man" is beyond me.

Because it's a medeval, pre-industrialised society with magic and no organized system of public education with an emphasis on scientific theory, logic and rationalism.

I'm your standard hardcore atheist in RL and even my characters are all varying degrees of religious.

Creating Tranquil and using mages as slave labor is wrong. Dead wrong. No matter how you look at it.

First you discredit the idea of some kind of supernatual entity but now you're advocating moral absolutism.

Make up your mind lad.

The Circle does not provide a superior standard of living when your every move is watched

Because being watched is far worse then not being seen whilst you toil away uneducated and starve.

and you are not allowed to go outside or even look out of a freaking window. A gilded cage is still a cage.

Hyperbole and lies. If you're not going to accurately portray the situation then there's no point in you even talking.

Modifié par GodWood, 18 juin 2012 - 10:47 .

[The Elder King]

It depends on the moment. I felt neutral before the end of DA2 towards both mage and templars.
If the templars's objective now is to completely annihilate mages and/or create a new system to control mages that is worse than what we saw in Kirkwall, I'm against them. Otherwise, I'd still feel neutral.
In DA2 I chose the mages (though I completed only one playthrough, so I can't say that I'm not going to choose the templars in another one), but that's only because Meredith wanted to annihilate the mages of the Circle, when they weren't involved in the destruction of the Chantry and the assassination Elthina. Meredith and her templars are more responsible in comparison of the mages for what happened, because it was their job to capture apostates.
Anyway, mages and templars shown their worst side in DA2. The templars in Kirkwall were too extreme and cruel with the mages (they're on the same level or worse than Howe) and the mages resorted in almost every case to blood magic.

Modifié par hhh89, 18 juin 2012 - 11:31 .

[Ophir147]

JSlither wrote...

Ser Thrask knew what was up. Too bad they aren't all like him.

Thrask, as well as all of the templars, believe in the Circle and everything it stands for, but not Meredith and obviously paranoid extremism. I would happen to agree with him.

Based on what I was exposed to in Dragon Age: Origins, I would believe that the Circle was an unnecessary encumbrance. However, after my first playthrough of Dragon Age II (in which I sided with the mages like most) I realized how much more carnage that allowing the mages freedom would allow.

It's all a matter of whether you would rather imprison innocent mages, or free them, allowing them to kill innocent civilians.

(sorry if someone has already made these points, because they are already the most obvious and I don't have enough time to read all posts before mine, off to work)

[Ryzaki]

JSlither wrote...

What happened to Thrask was nothing short of a tragedy. He was a good man. He knew that what the Templars were doing was wrong and felt that there needed to be a better way so he sided with the MAGES.

Why does everyone say Thrask was siding with the mages? Thrask was trying for neutrality. A circle that wasn't bats*** insane. It's why my Hawke sides with the templars. Free mages is ridculous but mages being treated as animals is just as ridculous.

[M0RD3CA1 VII]

I played through twice, so I've sided with both sides. The main reason I did though it so that I can become Viscountess and have my Hawke marry Sebastian ...

[ObserverStatus]

I have sided with the Templars as commanded by the Maker. After he sent the abomination Anders to punish his Chantry for its leniency, it became clear to me that the Maker wanted his Templars to tranquilize every last mage, so that they may better serve man by the means of creating enchanted goods for the rest of the maker's children.

Modifié par bobobo878, 19 juin 2012 - 12:52 .

[darthnick427]

Achievements. Otherwise there is no reason since I don't side with them

[EricHVela]

There are many interpretations of the doctrines of the Templars and the Circle.

Some interpretations of them do not preclude peaceful cooperation without oppression. Many other interpretations clash horribly.

EDIT: What I mean to say is: I need to know which version of the Templars and Circle is in question here.

Modifié par ReggarBlane, 19 juin 2012 - 01:22 .

[Emzamination]

I support Inquisition 100% because mages are below animals, they don't learn from the mistakes of the past.Every time a mage is given a little freedom or back into a corner they resort to comunicating with demons and blood magic.
Jowan- This idiot dabbled in blood magic to impress a girl
Morrigan- After stating not all apostates resort to blood magic, she revealed herself to be well versed in Ancient blood magics and not only that but attempted some Ancient blood magic sex rite in the hopes of producing some reborn demonic dragon god.
Kolgrim- This fanatic attempted to transfer the power of divinity to a Dragon via blood magic.
Connor- The boy's curiosity got the better of him and he stole a magic book from his blood mage mentor that not only resulted in him being possesed but also resulted in all but a few people in the village being eradicated and having their bodies defiled with undeath.
Chick on the second floor of circle tower- This witch killed dozens of mages through blood magic and her excuse for her actions was the magic was a means to an end and then compounds insult on injury by begging for her life.Off with her head.
Uldred - A senior enchanter of the circle who was suppose to be identifying blood mages was dabbling in blood magic and demonology himself which resulted in dozen of innocent souls being slaughtered or turned into Abominations.
Wynne- Tho she had no choice in the matter, she was still an abomination and should of had no problem alerting the chantry to her status instead of keeping it secret if she was so sure it wasn't wrong.
Anders- This moron willingly allowed a spirit from the fade trapped in thedas to bind with his soul and became some twisted vengance abomination which goes against all chantry law and every the mages claim they can resist on their own.The moron then blows up the innocent grand cleric and the rest of the clergy with a magic nuke which he believes is the 'justice' mages have been waiting for their entire existence.
Merill - Willingly dabbled in blood magic to repair the mirror that resulted in the ruination of both her friends and the death of her keeper.
Brothel hooker in Da2- Her and her consorts were implanting demons into templar recruits because they thought it would be fun to drive the knight commander mad
Middle eastern blood mage boy that gave himself up to thrask- For someone that claims not to want anything to do with blood magic, he was always right there is their company.Hawke said it best : That boys been consorting with blood mages since he was in swaddling clothes.
Grace: She claims not to want anything to do with blood magic but turns herself into an abomination when her backs against the wall.
Orsino- Instead of fighting and dieing with diginity like a normal man he chose to kill his fellow mages and destroy his mind to become some hidious flesh demon in the hopes that the demon would be too powerful to stop.
There are a host more but this is getting long.Mages have proven they are too stupid to be trusted with freedom or rights like normal men/women so they must be caged and chained like the qunari mages or they can be made tranquil and if they can't get with either, they can have the demonic gateways they call heads removed from their necks.Mages have had chance after chance to prove themselves but they just keep sodding up.My loyalties lye with the The inquisition/The templars and the lord seeker.

[Elvis_Mazur]

Maintain order and avenge Hawke's mother death by giving the worst thing Orsino could suffer: killing him and all his mages and make it look hopeless.

[Emzamination]

Nizaris1 wrote...

i just wonder...Hawke have a mage sister, who help him and his family during the Blight, Bethany never show to be evil bad mage, she is nice and love Hawke, she also help Hawke in many quests, Hawke father was an apostate...but suddenly Hawke side with the Templar? It is ridiculous to side with the Templar

The game show both side as extremists, are there no peaceful resolution is everything? Why there is always "you wrong, i am right, i kill you"....Since Act 1, all choices lead to that...

She tries to side with mages over her own flesh and blood that has looked out for her since she was a child.I consider that corrupt if not evil.

[Emzamination]

Nizaris1 wrote...

I don't know how many of the player choose "kill your sister" scene...

I did because she turned on her blood, my only regret is that bioware let meredith kill her for me instead.I am quite capable of taking care of my own family business, thank you bioware 

[Emzamination]

Nizaris1 wrote...

I will never kill or let anyone kill my own family no matter what wrong my family did, i could hate them for the entire of my life, but to end my own blood, no

Like Hector don't let Paris killed, that is what i will do

Pfffft paris brought 10 years of war to troy's shores over one woman.That war resulted in the genocide of the entire trojan race, he deserved to be whipped with hot oil and hung.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

[quote]Emzamination wrote...

I support Inquisition 100% because mages are below animals, they don't learn from the mistakes of the past.Every time a mage is given a little freedom or back into a corner they resort to comunicating with demons and blood magic.
Jowan- This idiot dabbled in blood magic to impress a girl
[/quote]
The reason he gives is that he wasn't sure he could pass his Harrowing. (Apparently, however, it was because he was jealous that the PC mage was better than him.)
[quote]
Morrigan- After stating not all apostates resort to blood magic, she revealed herself to be well versed in Ancient blood magics and not only that but attempted some Ancient blood magic sex rite in the hopes of producing some reborn demonic dragon god.
[/quote]
No argument from me as to Morrigan herself, however, the fact remains that there probably are apostates who don't know blood magic. The fact that she isn't one of those doesn't have anything to do with that.
[quote]
Kolgrim- This fanatic attempted to transfer the power of divinity to a Dragon via blood magic.
[/quote]
Also no argument.
[quote]
Connor- The boy's curiosity got the better of him and he stole a magic book from his blood mage mentor that not only resulted in him being possesed but also resulted in all but a few people in the village being eradicated and having their bodies defiled with undeath.
[/quote]
Apparently, Jowan has no idea how to summon a demon, and no texts which explain it. I think the idea is that Connor met it in the Fade.

Also, the reason for the deal was because Connor's father was weakening, and for all Connor knew, was dying. It wasn't curiosity, it was panic. Some of the mages are as bad as you say, in fact a lot of the ones we meet in-game are. Connor isn't.
[quote]
Chick on the second floor of circle tower- This witch killed dozens of mages through blood magic and her excuse for her actions was the magic was a means to an end and then compounds insult on injury by begging for her life.Off with her head.
[/quote]
Again, no argument to most of that. But my prefered course of action is to send her against the darkspawn.
[quote]
Uldred - A senior enchanter of the circle who was suppose to be identifying blood mages was dabbling in blood magic and demonology himself which resulted in dozen of innocent souls being slaughtered or turned into Abominations.
[/quote]
A lot of these innocents were mages. You don't seem to mention them on your list.
[quote]
Wynne- Tho she had no choice in the matter, she was still an abomination and should of had no problem alerting the chantry to her status instead of keeping it secret if she was so sure it wasn't wrong.
[/quote]
Some of them would have cut her up without even a shred of moral debate. Why would she tell them? Or risk them finding out?
[quote]
Anders- This moron willingly allowed a spirit from the fade trapped in thedas to bind with his soul and became some twisted vengance abomination which goes against all chantry law and every the mages claim they can resist on their own.The moron then blows up the innocent grand cleric and the rest of the clergy with a magic nuke which he believes is the 'justice' mages have been waiting for their entire existence.
[/quote]
He is also a moron. Again, no argument.

To the extent that Anders' original decision was justified, it was because Justice was relatively tame before he took up residence in Anders' head. Still a foolish risk to take, and one many innocent people paid for.
[quote]
Merill - Willingly dabbled in blood magic to repair the mirror that resulted in the ruination of both her friends and the death of her keeper.
[/quote]
She knew she was risking having the demon possess her. She did not realize Marethari would take that bullet for her. As for the mirror resulting in what happened to her friends, she seems to have solved the problem that lead to that. I don't see how what happened to Tamlen and the potential Warden really has any bearing on Merril's decision after she cleans the mirror.
[quote]
Brothel hooker in Da2- Her and her consorts were implanting demons into templar recruits because they thought it would be fun to drive the knight commander mad
[/quote]
She and her associates (I don't think "consorts" means what you think it means) were working for an absolute nut who wanted to rule the world. I'm not arguing with your ultimate moral assesment, but seriously, I've never played the game. I shouldn't know the character's motivations better than you.
[quote]
Middle eastern blood mage boy that gave himself up to thrask- For someone that claims not to want anything to do with blood magic, he was always right there is their company.Hawke said it best : That boys been consorting with blood mages since he was in swaddling clothes.
[/quote]
I have no idea who you're talking about, since I've never actually played DA2. That said, do we actually see him personally using forbidden magic? Of any kind?
[quote]
Grace: She claims not to want anything to do with blood magic but turns herself into an abomination when her backs against the wall.
[/quote]
Her back wasn't against the wall. Apparently, she went nuts after her man died. She was an idiot to miss him at all, but there you go. Still no argument with condemning her, in fact, she's worse than you portray her as.
[quote]
Orsino- Instead of fighting and dieing with diginity like a normal man he chose to kill his fellow mages and destroy his mind to become some hidious flesh demon in the hopes that the demon would be too powerful to stop.
[/quote]
Dying with dignity? Overrated. It's still dying.

No, the real idiocy is that if you're working for him, he apparently doesn't see how well the battle's turning out, because Bioware wrote that one really crappily. Not to mention using that before having tried literally everything else...
[quote]
There are a host more but this is getting long.Mages have proven they are too stupid to be trusted with freedom or rights like normal men/women so they must be caged and chained like the qunari mages or they can be made tranquil and if they can't get with either, they can have the demonic gateways they call heads removed from their necks.Mages have had chance after chance to prove themselves but they just keep sodding up.My loyalties lye with the The inquisition/The templars and the lord seeker.[/quote]

Mages Collective From Dragon Age: Origins- Not a single bit like you describe all mages as being. They enforce the Chantries laws among themselves, either for moral reasons or because that sort of magic is just too much trouble. Some of the missions for them even include taking down blood mages that the Collective has noticed.

Irving- The Knight-Commander comes right out and says that if Irving says the problem is solved, it's solved. The Templars have more respect for some mages than you do.

Niall- Actually tried to help save the innocents Uldred was killing/controlling. If it weren't for him, it's debatable whether anyone the Warden was with would have known to grab the Litany, and the Warden would have had a hell of a time figuring out the way that section of the Fade worked.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 19 juin 2012 - 04:39 .

[DPSSOC]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Emzamination wrote...
Kolgrim- This fanatic attempted to transfer the power of divinity to a Dragon via blood magic.

Also no argument.

Ooh I've got one; Kolgrim wasn't a mage.  I mean not to split too fine a hair but if you're citing examples to demonize mages you might want to restrict them to actual mages.

Overall I side with the Templars though at the end I side with the mages (Meredith is clearly in the wrong in that particular instance).  I side with the Templars because while they're behaviour in Kirkwall is abhorrent (and I kill most of those bastards), they are generally right about mages needing to be locked away..

The isolation of mages from the rest of society is necessary because of the amount of power they weild.  A mage, on accident, can do more harm than any individual of equal standing with malicious intent.  In the Magi Origin we see a mage learning to control fire and it gets out of control, imagine if that happened in a village while a mage was trying to practice at home.  It isn't just about what they might choose to do if they were free it's about what they might do simply by nature of being human/elven and fallible.

More personal isolation, from family and loved ones, is also a sad necessity, for much the same reason it is for the Jedi in Star Wars.  Quentin's wife died and it drove him to become a serial killer and necromancer and Connor's father fell ill and it lead to him making a pact with a demon (even unknowingly).  The day to day social interactions with people we care about put a lot of strain on us and drive us to do some rather stupid things.  Mages need to remain calm in order to maitain control of their magic, and what they can do if they lose that control necessitates a degree of enforced emotional isolation.

To the "backed into a corner" defenders of mages who go abomination I'd simply like to point out that people get backed into corners all the time living free too.

[Urzon]

I only sided with the Templars once because of the achievement. The thought of killing innocents, just to satisfy would could be a bloodthristy majority/mob was never a choice in my book.

That and using the "Keeping the majority safe" excuse to oppress a minority doesn't fly well with me either. Because if the shoe was on the other foot, where the majority were mages (with all the same risks) and the minority were regular folk, people would just say they should learn to just deal with it. That they don't have the right to lock up everyone (mages) just to keep them (the minority non-mages) safe.

While the Circles are necessary for mages to learn to control their powers, they shouldn't be gilded cages for mages for the rest of their lives, where all their personal liberties are striped away because they were born with magic.

Modifié par Urzon, 19 juin 2012 - 11:31 .

[The Elder King]

Emzamination wrote...

I support Inquisition 100% because mages are below animals, they don't learn from the mistakes of the past.Every time a mage is given a little freedom or back into a corner they resort to comunicating with demons and blood magic.
There are a host more but this is getting long.Mages have proven they are too stupid to be trusted with freedom or rights like normal men/women so they must be caged and chained like the qunari mages or they can be made tranquil and if they can't get with either, they can have the demonic gateways they call heads removed from their necks.Mages have had chance after chance to prove themselves but they just keep sodding up.My loyalties lye with the The inquisition/The templars and the lord seeker.

At least in this case the mages will not going to be raped, unless the templars are interested in having sex with beast
The qunari method will not work. Or better, it could work until the qunari will invade Thedas. Then the mages will flee to the Imperium when they'll get the chance.
The qunari method works in the Qun because their mages believe that the Qun is right. They believe that they're too dangerous to be left with freedom. I really doubt that the mages in the rest of Thedas will agree on that. This method could work if you have decades to brainwash the mages, and Thedas doesn't have the time. They're going to be invaded by the qunari before it'll work.
Good luck with the Tranquil method. You'll practically stab yourself, since Thedas will lose the only asset that could save Thedas from the qunari. Magic is the only thing in which we're superior to the qunari. Without it (or with the mages treated as beasts) the Chantry will be destroyed easily.

[DKJaigen]

DPSSOC wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Emzamination wrote...
Kolgrim- This fanatic attempted to transfer the power of divinity to a Dragon via blood magic.

Also no argument.

Ooh I've got one; Kolgrim wasn't a mage.  I mean not to split too fine a hair but if you're citing examples to demonize mages you might want to restrict them to actual mages.

Overall I side with the Templars though at the end I side with the mages (Meredith is clearly in the wrong in that particular instance).  I side with the Templars because while they're behaviour in Kirkwall is abhorrent (and I kill most of those bastards), they are generally right about mages needing to be locked away..

The isolation of mages from the rest of society is necessary because of the amount of power they weild.  A mage, on accident, can do more harm than any individual of equal standing with malicious intent.  In the Magi Origin we see a mage learning to control fire and it gets out of control, imagine if that happened in a village while a mage was trying to practice at home.  It isn't just about what they might choose to do if they were free it's about what they might do simply by nature of being human/elven and fallible.

More personal isolation, from family and loved ones, is also a sad necessity, for much the same reason it is for the Jedi in Star Wars.  Quentin's wife died and it drove him to become a serial killer and necromancer and Connor's father fell ill and it lead to him making a pact with a demon (even unknowingly).  The day to day social interactions with people we care about put a lot of strain on us and drive us to do some rather stupid things.  Mages need to remain calm in order to maitain control of their magic, and what they can do if they lose that control necessitates a degree of enforced emotional isolation.

To the "backed into a corner" defenders of mages who go abomination I'd simply like to point out that people get backed into corners all the time living free too.

What your describing is the breeding ground for monsters. And these monsters have a lot of power. You destroy any form of empathy the mages can have for the normal humans. With a war going on this will lead to genocide for either the mages or the non-mages. And stop using the Jedi. Emotions have far greater effect in the SW universe then in the dragon age universe and might i also remind you that every single major war is started because some jedi turned darkside because of the jedi system.