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[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...
It seems to me that you think your opinions fall under "common sense," and everyone else who views the situation differently than you is wrong.

It falls under common sense because it does. It has been explained - in detail - many times.
Again and again, and every time I brought it up no one has bothered to try to challenge it.

Quite simply, the efficiency of control and contaiment is inversely proportional to the area one has to control and the amount of variables. This is so obvious that it's not to be contested.

Mages roaming free and living in the cities/villages among normal people would be the epitome of inefficiency. The logistics of policing them would be enormeus, and response times would be slow (meaning that when one does go abominition, casulaties will pile up).

Kirkwall is a fairly good example of the Seekers of Truth not doing their job. In fact, since Leliana is apparently not a Seeker, it seems that the Divine had to send one of her own agents to try to surmise what was going on in a city-state that was being ruled by the local Knight-Commander. Letting a city-state become ruled by a templar for years seems to be a fairly good indication that the Seekers aren't fulfilling their responsibilities.

In Kirkwall...maybe. But it's a big world.
You know why you don't hear about good things regarding templars? Because it's not interesting. Bad news spreads fast. Good news doens't. It's why the newspapers are filled with stories of theft, muder, accidents and such - and they are always at the front pages. More positive stories are either ignored or at the back of the paper. This is also basic human nature.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 15 juillet 2012 - 11:26 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Templars use demons, Harrowing is a demonic ritual

Got a better idea on how to test mages? No?
Thought so...

[Xilizhra]

Got a better idea on how to test mages? No?
Thought so...

Whatever Malcolm used clearly worked. Also, maybe it's me, but I don't consider a graduation ceremony/test with such a high death rate to be "successful."

You know why you don't hear about good things regarding templars? Because it's not interesting. Bad news spreads fast. Good news doens't. It's why the newspapers are filled with stories of theft, muder, accidents and such - and they are always at the front pages. More positive stories are either ignored or at the back of the paper. This is also basic human nature.

We cannot, however, assume this. In Mass Effect, with Cerberus, while most of their experiments shown onscreen were gruesome failures, the LotSB dossier talked about their more successful ones, so we can conclude that they did most things right. The same is not true of the templars. Every Annulment is a massive failure, and there have been seventeen of them, along with everything else of their incompetence and brutality that we've seen, with little of the opposite.

[LobselVith8]

Lazy Jer wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Ian was addressing Leliana in Act III's Faith.

I know. But her actions in "Asunder"; which was written by David Gaider and occur after DA2; shows she is not anti-magic despite being pro-chantry.

Definitely agree.  Leliana is not anti-mage, which is shown in Asunder.  What's more nothing she says in Act III in Faith indicates that she's anti-mage.  She worries about the safetly of the Grand Cleric considering the volitile situation in Kirkwall, but she doesn't really show any anti-mage behavior.

Actually, many people commented on having the view that Leliana comes across as anti-mage in "Faith," and criticized the quest as a result of what they felt was OOC dialogue.

[Dave of Canada]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Got a better idea on how to test mages? No?
Thought so...

why need to test mages when....

... how is this related?

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It seems to me that you think your opinions fall under "common sense," and everyone else who views the situation differently than you is wrong.

It falls under common sense because it does. It has been explained - in detail - many times.
Again and again, and every time I brought it up no one has bothered to try to challenge it.

Quite simply, the efficiency of control and contaiment is inversely proportional to the area one has to control and the amount of variables. This is so obvious that it's not to be contested.

Mages roaming free and living in the cities/villages among normal people would be the epitome of inefficiency. The logistics of policing them would be enormeus, and response times would be slow (meaning that when one does go abominition, casulaties will pile up).

And yet, it's this very system that has lead to mages rebelling all across the continent - in effect, being free, and fighting templars to maintain their autonomy.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Kirkwall is a fairly good example of the Seekers of Truth not doing their job. In fact, since Leliana is apparently not a Seeker, it seems that the Divine had to send one of her own agents to try to surmise what was going on in a city-state that was being ruled by the local Knight-Commander. Letting a city-state become ruled by a templar for years seems to be a fairly good indication that the Seekers aren't fulfilling their responsibilities.

In Kirkwall...maybe. But it's a big world.
You know why you don't hear about good things regarding templars? Because it's not interesting. Bad news spreads fast. Good news doens't. It's why the newspapers are filled with stories of theft, muder, accidents and such - and they are always at the front pages. More positive stories are either ignored or at the back of the paper. This is also basic human nature.

The Knight-Commander seizing political power and preventing elections should have been rectified by the Seekers, not ignored for three years. It's valid for people to question how effective or competent the Seekers are when the narrative addresses their failure in Kirkwall.

[Dave of Canada]

Nizaris1 wrote...

mages no need any tests at all...why need to test mages when they already have a spell that can neutralize any attempt of mind controlling and it is just a simple spell?

Mind control blood magic =/= a demon.

Pride-Demon-Formely-Known-As-Uldred is torturing mages until they submit and uses blood magic to do so, the Litany stops Uldred's influence on the mages but doesn't stop demons from possessing them. He's using blood magic for influencing the people until they accept the demon into themselves.

Similar to Keran in DA2.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 15 juillet 2012 - 04:06 .

[LobselVith8]

Nizaris1 wrote...

mages no need any tests at all...why need to test mages when they already have a spell that can neutralize any attempt of mind controlling and it is just a simple spell?

There's a reason why the mage protagonist can view the Harrowing as being "thrown to the wolves."

[Fallstar]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...
All Orlesians are in fact aliens imitating humans. Common sense. That's the prime argument. If you have a problem with that...well, I don't care really.

If anyone presents facts in a reasonable manner which suggest that all Orlesians are not in fact aliens, I have this to say. Your opinion is noted, and filed under "I do not care."

You might want to look up in the dictionary the definition of "Common Sense". Because making stupid strawmen is not it.

The point of my post is that common sense is entirely subjective. Something you might think is common sense, I might have to think about for a while to understand. This is why calling something common sense and not giving other arguments is pointless. You can do it for anything. You calling your argument common sense and not backing it up, is just as ridiculous as me calling Orlesians aliens and not backing it up. We both gave the same amount of evidence (nothing) to support our claims.

Dave of Canada wrote...
Mind control blood magic =/= a demon.

Pride-Demon-Formely-Known-As-Uldred is torturing mages until they submit and uses blood magic to do so, the Litany stops Uldred's influence on the mages but doesn't stop demons from possessing them. He's using blood magic for influencing the people until they accept the demon into themselves.

Similar to Keran in DA2.

Uldred isn't using blood magic for torturing the mages until they submit. He's using a shock spell for that. Once they submit, that's when he and his fellow abominations cast the blood magic spell to bring a demon across the veil.

Modifié par DuskWarden, 15 juillet 2012 - 04:38 .

[TEWR]

I seem to have missed a lot for this thread lately.

Might be a good thing, because I have no clue what's going on now.

[dragonflight288]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I seem to have missed a lot for this thread lately.

Might be a good thing, because I have no clue what's going on now.

There was a small debate about Lotion needing to present evidence if he wishes to discredit other people's arguments or to support his own. He said he won't do that and doesn't care about honest debate, and said his arguments were backed up by common sense so he didn't need to present evidence.

There was some back and forth after that and Nizaris is using in-game evidence accompanied by pictures to support the idea that templars are in league with demons, or at least use them to try and weed out mages as much as possible, and do so knowingly.

[TEWR]

dragonflight288 wrote...

There was some back and forth after that and Nizaris is using in-game evidence accompanied by pictures to support the idea that templars are in league with demons, or at least use them to try and weed out mages as much as possible, and do so knowingly.

I see.

I don't know if I'd buy into that, because it's kinda hard to get a Demon to follow your rules rather then vice-versa.

Alistair's line might just be a simple dialogue problem, rather then anything indicative of the Templars feeding Mages to demons.

For one, that'd require blood magic to summon a demon into the Mage. Which would require other Mages. And I can't see other Mages going along with such a thing, nor can I see Templars going along with such a thing.

Alistair probably just meant that he was present at a Harrowing, where the Mage went into a personal section of the Fade where a demon was -- thereby being in her, I guess one could argue -- and she fell prey to wearing a meatball flesh suit.

At least, that's how I took it. Unless Mouse, Sloth, and the Rage Demon from the Mage Warden's Harrowing say something else that backs up how Alistair's line is worded, I'm inclined to not believe that the Templars are in league with the Demons.

EDIT: That said, having the Litany of Adralla copied en masse and handed out to Templars and taught to Mages from the onset of their training is something that should be done. That there's only one copy and it was locked away in a storage room is pretty telling of how incompetent the Templars are at truly dealing with maleficarum and Abominations.

Well, that and the fact that they're the root cause of the maleficarum and Abominations a good deal -- if not a great deal -- of the time.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 16 juillet 2012 - 03:00 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Nizaris1 wrote...

mages no need any tests at all...why need to test mages when they already have a spell that can neutralize any attempt of mind controlling and it is just a simple spell?

We use the Lithany to prevent Uldred making abominations from the captured mages, if we fail to use it even irving will become abomination

The Plot device that is the Litany guards against mind control from blood magic (while spoken).
Demonic possesion is not the same thing.
Even if it was, mages can't go on reciting the litany all day long 24/7.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
It falls under common sense because it does. It has been explained - in detail - many times.
Again and again, and every time I brought it up no one has bothered to try to challenge it.

Quite simply, the efficiency of control and contaiment is inversely proportional to the area one has to control and the amount of variables. This is so obvious that it's not to be contested.

Mages roaming free and living in the cities/villages among normal people would be the epitome of inefficiency. The logistics of policing them would be enormeus, and response times would be slow (meaning that when one does go abominition, casulaties will pile up).

And yet, it's this very system that has lead to mages rebelling all across the continent - in effect, being free, and fighting templars to maintain their autonomy.

Moot point.
Mages will rebel against ANY system that takes away anything from them. And I fail to see how that coutner anything I said above.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
In Kirkwall...maybe. But it's a big world.
You know why you don't hear about good things regarding templars? Because it's not interesting. Bad news spreads fast. Good news doens't. It's why the newspapers are filled with stories of theft, muder, accidents and such - and they are always at the front pages. More positive stories are either ignored or at the back of the paper. This is also basic human nature.

The Knight-Commander seizing political power and preventing elections should have been rectified by the Seekers, not ignored for three years. It's valid for people to question how effective or competent the Seekers are when the narrative addresses their failure in Kirkwall.

Everything is a faliure in Kirkwall.
The templars, the circles, the government, the guard, the buisnesses, the qunari, the dalish... I can't really think of any group that wasn't a complete faliure.
Kirkwall is a city of FAIL.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DuskWarden wrote...
The point of my post is that common sense is entirely subjective. Something you might think is common sense, I might have to think about for a while to understand. This is why calling something common sense and not giving other arguments is pointless. You can do it for anything. You calling your argument common sense and not backing it up, is just as ridiculous as me calling Orlesians aliens and not backing it up. We both gave the same amount of evidence (nothing) to support our claims.

Common sense is NOT subjective.
Common sense is basic logical deduction+ common knowledge of how things work.

I have explained before exactly why the containment/prevention fails if mages roam free, and it's not hard to figure it out. Think a bit about it.
Do you really need evidence for things like bigger distance = travel will last longer. Really?

Uldred isn't using blood magic for torturing the mages until they submit. He's using a shock spell for that. Once they submit, that's when he and his fellow abominations cast the blood magic spell to bring a demon across the veil.

No, he's using blood magic to weaken their resolve.