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[Lotion Soronarr]

Nizaris is in full conspiracy mode again....oh boy...


Speaking of which, I like it how 99% mages being insane is DA2 is handwaved as "torn veil" or "bad writing" (so it doesn't really matter) , but the same reasoning is never applied to templar misdeeds/incompetence.

[Lotion Soronarr]

I know Uldred is an abomination.
I'm talking about your "templars are in cahoots with the demons" conspiracy.

[dragonflight288]

Mages will rebel against ANY system that takes away anything from them. And I fail to see how that coutner anything I said above.

And I can just as easily respond to that kind of statement with the following.

'Templars will rape and tranquilize every mage they can possibly can in ANY system they are in charge of. Templars will always abuse their power. And no evidence of templars who don't do that will change the validity of this statement. Those are freaks of nature.'

It's absolutely ridiculous. It's like saying every Catholic or Lutheran hates each others guts for the religious wars fought centuries ago.

There is no possible way that statement that mages will abuse EVERY system they'll ever be in. Of course they'll be bad eggs who will. There will be bad eggs no matter who the group is (elves, dwarves, mages, nobles, farmers, politicians, etc) who will try and take advantage of the system. But you can't say an entire group is like that. It's like saying every templar is a rapist, and those that aren't are freaks of nature.

[IanPolaris]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Moot point.
Mages will rebel against ANY system that takes away anything from them. And I fail to see how that coutner anything I said above.

It is not a moot point.  First of all mages will not rebell against ANY system that takes anything away from them.  You are making a positive point here and provide absolutely zero evidence for that.  Heck I can think of a suprising counterexample without thinking too hard:  Modern Tevinter.

The mages are not rebelling in Modern Tevinter despite the fact that vast majority of mages there don't live under conditions much better (if any better really) than the Andrastian Circles.  Why?  Because every mage in Tevinter can dream of being a Magister (even if it realistically is only a dream for most), and that HOPE for advancement and being part of society (no matter how vile) does a lot to stop would-be revolts.

There are other nicer examples, but I only have to show one counter-example to completely invalidate your point.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
In Kirkwall...maybe. But it's a big world.
You know why you don't hear about good things regarding templars? Because it's not interesting. Bad news spreads fast. Good news doens't. It's why the newspapers are filled with stories of theft, muder, accidents and such - and they are always at the front pages. More positive stories are either ignored or at the back of the paper. This is also basic human nature.

The Knight-Commander seizing political power and preventing elections should have been rectified by the Seekers, not ignored for three years. It's valid for people to question how effective or competent the Seekers are when the narrative addresses their failure in Kirkwall.

Everything is a faliure in Kirkwall.
The templars, the circles, the government, the guard, the buisnesses, the qunari, the dalish... I can't really think of any group that wasn't a complete faliure.
Kirkwall is a city of FAIL.

Yes, and the Chantry as a whole should have had Seekers in there within a year if the Chantry and Seekers as a whole were in fact interested in enforcing their own laws or actually holding their own Templars accountable.  But they aren't.  Even the Divine had to send in her own personal agent when there should have been a Seeker investigation NTL year 2-3....and that was in year 7.



-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Nizaris is in full conspiracy mode again....oh boy...


Speaking of which, I like it how 99% mages being insane is DA2 is handwaved as "torn veil" or "bad writing" (so it doesn't really matter) , but the same reasoning is never applied to templar misdeeds/incompetence.

Mages don't get to choose to be mages and have no say in where they are inprisoned.  None of that is true for the Templars, and the Chantry knows (it HAS to know just from the exceedingly high failure and abomination rate in Kirkwall) that the Veil is torn in Kirkwall.

In short, the Templars are responsible for their own troubles because of their own incompetance.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I know Uldred is an abomination.
I'm talking about your "templars are in cahoots with the demons" conspiracy.

Actually the evidence was presented very well.  If you look at the convo data, it does suggest that the Templars are in cahoots with demons, they do implant demons into mages, and at the very least are directly involved in demon summoning.  I am not sure I agree with the other poster, but you can not dismiss that argument just on your say-so.  Evidence and valid argumentation would be nice.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

It falls under common sense because it does. It has been explained - in detail - many times.
Again and again, and every time I brought it up no one has bothered to try to challenge it.

First, last, and hopefully only time.  You do NOT get to dismiss a valid argument (either mine or anyone else's) with "It's common sense".

You might want to use evidence and logic instead. 

Your "common sense" assertion amounts to "I have 'common sense' and therefor I'm right and everyone else is wrong".  You might believe that, but it's not valid rhetoric.

-Polaris

[Lazy Jer]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Speaking of which, I like it how 99% mages being insane is DA2 is handwaved as "torn veil" or "bad writing" (so it doesn't really matter) , but the same reasoning is never applied to templar misdeeds/incompetence.

The percentage of chaotic mages and corrupt templars are a direct result of each side egging each other on.  Every Tehrone-like mages makes Templars harder and angerier, every Alrick  or Meredith makes the mages more likely to rebel.  It's a syptom of the situation in Kirkwall. 

[Xilizhra]

Speaking of which, I like it how 99% mages being insane is DA2 is handwaved as "torn veil" or "bad writing" (so it doesn't really matter) , but the same reasoning is never applied to templar misdeeds/incompetence.

First of all, this premise is false. Most mages we see aren't blood mages, or at least don't use blood magic in any way that can be proven. Second, mages are far more mentally vulnerable to a torn Veil than templars. Third, templars are the ones in utter power and have responsibility for both themselves and the mages, whereas mages only have responsibility for themselves. Fourth, templars actually try to recruit amoral zealots; it's a codex entry. Mages, on the other hand, aren't selected by personality at all.

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Nizaris is in full conspiracy mode again....oh boy...


Speaking of which, I like it how 99% mages being insane is DA2 is handwaved as "torn veil" or "bad writing" (so it doesn't really matter) , but the same reasoning is never applied to templar misdeeds/incompetence.

It isn't handwaved; the Band if Three and the story with Corypheus both address why they go insane in Kirkwall.

[DPSSOC]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Nizaris is in full conspiracy mode again....oh boy...


Speaking of which, I like it how 99% mages being insane is DA2 is handwaved as "torn veil" or "bad writing" (so it doesn't really matter) , but the same reasoning is never applied to templar misdeeds/incompetence.

It isn't handwaved; the Band if Three and the story with Corypheus both address why they go insane in Kirkwall.

I think he meant that the mages are given that leeway but the Templars are not.  If a mage goes insane and kills people it's the Band of Three thing, or Corypheus, etc.  However if a Templar does something wrong they're just evil.  My understanding of things is that the thin veil makes everybody crazy.

[Xilizhra]

I think he meant that the mages are given that leeway but the Templars are not. If a mage goes insane and kills people it's the Band of Three thing, or Corypheus, etc. However if a Templar does something wrong they're just evil. My understanding of things is that the thin veil makes everybody crazy.

Mages are far more susceptible to the Veil alone than templars, although Corypheus' manipulations were implied to affect everyone. That said, we don't see any templars who deal with mages as decent people in DAO either.

[IanPolaris]

DPSSOC wrote...

I think he meant that the mages are given that leeway but the Templars are not.  If a mage goes insane and kills people it's the Band of Three thing, or Corypheus, etc.  However if a Templar does something wrong they're just evil.  My understanding of things is that the thin veil makes everybody crazy.

Not to the same extend.  It's like lyrium exposure.  Mages are highly vulnerable to even the slightest amount of raw lyrium, most people shouldn't handle it, but the deep dwarves are resistant to it and can be exposed to raw lyrium for an extended period of time with only minor side effects long after the raw lyrium poisoning would have killed any other race....but even the Deep Dwarves aren't totally immune (see the crazy merchant in Orzammar).

Mages are far and away the most suspectable to the negative aspects of a paper-thin veil, and the Chantry and Templars damn well know it.  SInce the Templars volunteer and the Chantry can control where the circle will be and what the policies therein will be, the responsibility for this gross dereliction of duty falls squarely on the Templars/Chantry.

-Polaris

[DPSSOC]

Certainly I wasn't arguing for or against the argument it just seemed like Lobsel may have misinterpreted what was meant by handwaving, or maybe I am who knows.

[TEWR]

Per the established lore, Corypheus can only affect tainted individuals. Unless everyone in Kirkwall is foaming at the mouth with the Taint -- and they haven't mastered their Taint -- then Corypheus has no part at all in any of what's going on.

[Lotion Soronarr]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Mages will rebel against ANY system that takes away anything from them. And I fail to see how that coutner anything I said above.

And I can just as easily respond to that kind of statement with the following.

'Templars will rape and tranquilize every mage they can possibly can in ANY system they are in charge of. Templars will always abuse their power. And no evidence of templars who don't do that will change the validity of this statement. Those are freaks of nature.'

It's absolutely ridiculous. It's like saying every Catholic or Lutheran hates each others guts for the religious wars fought centuries ago.

Actually no. You are being redicolous and arguing against I point I never made.

Mages are people. And people don't like it when they are denied something. It doens't matter how justified it is, how logical or how smart (or not) the action is. People will resent. They will desire. And many of them will beresentfull enough to take action.

So yes, mages will occasionaly throw a revolt or two, just as any human would.
No prison in the world will ever be "good enough" for the prisoner.

[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...
It is not a moot point.  First of all mages will not rebell against ANY system that takes anything away from them.  You are making a positive point here and provide absolutely zero evidence for that.  Heck I can think of a suprising counterexample without thinking too hard:  Modern Tevinter.

The mages are not rebelling in Modern Tevinter despite the fact that vast majority of mages there don't live under conditions much better (if any better really) than the Andrastian Circles. 

Unless you have evidence that no Tevinter circle ever had  a riot, your words carry 0 value.

Everything is a faliure in Kirkwall.
The templars, the circles, the government, the guard, the buisnesses, the qunari, the dalish... I can't really think of any group that wasn't a complete faliure.
Kirkwall is a city of FAIL.

Yes, and the Chantry as a whole should have had Seekers in there within a year if the Chantry and Seekers as a whole were in fact interested in enforcing their own laws or actually holding their own Templars accountable.  But they aren't.  Even the Divine had to send in her own personal agent when there should have been a Seeker investigation NTL year 2-3....and that was in year 7.

What you think should have been is irrelevant.
You keep forgeting this isn't the modern world. No internet to get messages to the other end ofhte world in a split of a second.
The most basic of news in the old days traveled for weeks, months. Sometimes years. Then you have to confirm the rumors. Which take more times. That's assuming word got out in the first place.

[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Nizaris is in full conspiracy mode again....oh boy...


Speaking of which, I like it how 99% mages being insane is DA2 is handwaved as "torn veil" or "bad writing" (so it doesn't really matter) , but the same reasoning is never applied to templar misdeeds/incompetence.

Mages don't get to choose to be mages and have no say in where they are inprisoned.  None of that is true for the Templars, and the Chantry knows (it HAS to know just from the exceedingly high failure and abomination rate in Kirkwall) that the Veil is torn in Kirkwall.

In short, the Templars are responsible for their own troubles because of their own incompetance.

-Polaris

Which is completely irrelevant to my point.
"It think the templars are dumb, therefore it's not bad writing" is not an argument.

You keep trotting the mages innocence, but I say bollcoks.
They may not be responsible for being born mages, but they are responsible for letting the demons posses them.

[Xilizhra]

Again, you're arguing the wrong thing. Whether or not mages require the Circle isn't the primary issue; the problem is the Circle being controlled by the Chantry.

[dragonflight288]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Mages will rebel against ANY system that takes away anything from them. And I fail to see how that coutner anything I said above.

And I can just as easily respond to that kind of statement with the following.

'Templars will rape and tranquilize every mage they can possibly can in ANY system they are in charge of. Templars will always abuse their power. And no evidence of templars who don't do that will change the validity of this statement. Those are freaks of nature.'

It's absolutely ridiculous. It's like saying every Catholic or Lutheran hates each others guts for the religious wars fought centuries ago.

Actually no. You are being redicolous and arguing against I point I never made.

Mages are people. And people don't like it when they are denied something. It doens't matter how justified it is, how logical or how smart (or not) the action is. People will resent. They will desire. And many of them will beresentfull enough to take action.

So yes, mages will occasionaly throw a revolt or two, just as any human would.
No prison in the world will ever be "good enough" for the prisoner.

So the logical thing to do is to free them.

[LobselVith8]

The "Speculations on Kirkwall" codex from Legacy address the lunacy in Kirkwall, and there is speculation that Corypheus plays a part in it.

Whether it's true or not, the weathered journal entry from the Grey Warden addresses that lunacy is a factor in Kirkwall, despite how ridiculous it makes the characters out to be in the actual story. I wish the writers depicted them otherwise.

[Lotion Soronarr]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Actually no. You are being redicolous and arguing against I point I never made.

Mages are people. And people don't like it when they are denied something. It doens't matter how justified it is, how logical or how smart (or not) the action is. People will resent. They will desire. And many of them will beresentfull enough to take action.

So yes, mages will occasionaly throw a revolt or two, just as any human would.
No prison in the world will ever be "good enough" for the prisoner.

So the logical thing to do is to free them.

Actually no. The logical thing to do is to accept that donwside of the system and move on.

If you want to argue the opposite, you're free to walk into the maximum security prison and free all the prisoners there. I'm sure they'll be very gratefull.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Xilizhra wrote...

Again, you're arguing the wrong thing. Whether or not mages require the Circle isn't the primary issue; the problem is the Circle being controlled by the Chantry.

I would be arguing the wrong thing if all you mage-supporters argued the same thing. But you don't.
Same argue that mages should be free. Otehr that mages should be in charge of everything. Others that Circels should be compeltely reformed in one way or another.

There is no inherent problem with the Chantry being in-chage. (other than it's a religious instituation and you think religion is dumb)
The implementation is wonky, but that's about it.

Now you argue for solutions without taking into account the socoi-political situation.
In other words, you don't give a damn about what an average Thedosian thinks and you solve problems from that perspective - which is about as flawed as taking a time machine to the middle ages and go talk smack about Mohhamed/God.
As far as people of TheDas are concerened, the greatest disasters in history (including Darkspawn) being caused by mages is factual. They have every reason in the world to be anti-mage.