673 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

There is no inherent problem with the Chantry being in-chage. (other than it's a religious instituation and you think religion is dumb)

Also, the Chant of Light and the interpretation thereof is distinctly magophobic. There's no possible way it can maintain neutral oversight.

In other words, you don't give a damn about what an average Thedosian thinks and you solve problems from that perspective - which is about as flawed as taking a time machine to the middle ages and go talk smack about Mohhamed/God.
As far as people of TheDas are concerened, the greatest disasters in history (including Darkspawn) being caused by mages is factual. They have every reason in the world to be anti-mage.

Recall that Cullen was saying things about the average Thedosian no longer thinking so highly of the templars. Kirkwall's scenario of ordinary people actually undermining the Order may be new, but if things continued in the way they were then, I'm fairly sure it'd be happening more often elsewhere, especially in Ferelden. And so long as there aren't a large amount of abomination incidences and the like from an independent Circle, it's so far removed from the average Thedosian's life that they won't really care. It matters less who runs what than whether or not it affects them.

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
So the logical thing to do is to free them.

Actually no. The logical thing to do is to accept that donwside of the system and move on.

If you want to argue the opposite, you're free to walk into the maximum security prison and free all the prisoners there. I'm sure they'll be very gratefull.

I think populations of men, women, and children who are imprsioned for being mages are not akin to hardened criminals who broke the law.

[Fallstar]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
I would be arguing the wrong thing if all you mage-supporters argued the same thing. But you don't.
Same argue that mages should be free. Otehr that mages should be in charge of everything. Others that Circels should be compeltely reformed in one way or another.

There is no inherent problem with the Chantry being in-chage. (other than it's a religious instituation and you think religion is dumb)
The implementation is wonky, but that's about it.

There is a significant problem with the chantry being in charge of the mages. The chantry is the organisation that taught people mages caused the first darkspawn, and even though we know that is highly unlikely, the people of Thedas don't, and so the vast majority believe them. So their teachings aren't just toothless drivel, they are actually causing ignorance which is causing harm. And if the chantry were ever proved wrong on the matter, that'd be a significant cornerstone of their religon removed. And if that bit isn't true, what about the rest? People who are in power rarely want to give that power up. And the Andrastian chantry does have a lot of power. Before the Templars left anyway. So having someone whose power is based on the mages' portrayal as evil is not OK.  If you think that the mages need to be watched by non mages, those non mages should be completely independent of the debate.

Now you argue for solutions without taking into account the socoi-political situation.
In other words, you don't give a damn about what an average Thedosian thinks and you solve problems from that perspective - which is about as flawed as taking a time machine to the middle ages and go talk smack about Mohhamed/God.
As far as people of TheDas are concerened, the greatest disasters in history (including Darkspawn) being caused by mages is factual. They have every reason in the world to be anti-mage.

Well as I just explained, what the average Thedosian thinks is at least partially based off a lie. Something they will never learn the truth about whilst the Chantry is in charge. You see why having the Chantry in charge is an inherent problem now?

Modifié par DuskWarden, 19 juillet 2012 - 04:32 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]DuskWarden wrote...
There is a significant problem with the chantry being in charge of the
mages. The chantry is the organisation that taught people mages caused
the first darkspawn, and even though we
know that is highly unlikely, the people of Thedas don't, and so the
vast majority believe them. So their teachings aren't just toothless
drivel, they are actually causing ignorance which is causing harm. And
if the chantry were ever proved wrong on the matter, that'd be a
significant cornerstone of their religon removed. And if that bit isn't
true, what about the rest? People who are in power rarely want to give
that power up. And the Andrastian chantry does have a lot of power.
Before the Templars left anyway. So having someone whose power is based
on the mages' portrayal as evil is not OK.  If you think that the mages
need to be watched by non mages, those non mages should be completely
independent of the debate.[/quote]

Just becasue you believe their techings to be drivel doesn't make it so.
If you have some proof the mages didn't casue the blight, present it. The entire worlds of TheDAs pretty much considers mages responsible for it.
Mages are dangerous. Fact.
Mages have been the cause of hte greatest disasters in the history of Thedas. Fact.
A perfeclty good and kind mage can still kill you against his will. Fact.

Also, templars begin chosen for the devotion is not a flaw at all. Every single army wants obedient soldiers. Soldiers selected for elite units have to be obedient. And beging devout and hating mages have no direct correlation. Take a look at Leliana for example.
If anything the love/hate tempalrs have for mages is a product of them being with the mages. Just as jailors either become attacked or compeltely detached with their prisoners, so do templars - and in a far greater scale, since templars know the mages for when they were kids. You saw Cullen when he was still in Ferelden. Did he look like he hated mages? Heck, he was in love with one. Even after all the torture he's been trough, he still feels for them.
But not everyone is like that. Other will close off, or hate mages after some turn into abominations and kill their friends.
You seem to think that the strenius relations between the templars nad mages are a product of the Chantry and nothing more. In reality, basic psychology will tell you that it's the product of their circumstances.




[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Now you argue for solutions without taking into account the socoi-political situation.
In other words, you don't give a damn about what an average Thedosian thinks and you solve problems from that perspective - which is about as flawed as taking a time machine to the middle ages and go talk smack about Mohhamed/God.
As far as people of TheDas are concerened, the greatest disasters in history (including Darkspawn) being caused by mages is factual. They have every reason in the world to be anti-mage.
[/quote]

Well as I just explained, what the average Thedosian thinks is at least partially based off a lie. Something they will never learn the truth about whilst the Chantry is in charge. You see why having the Chantry in charge is an inherent problem now?
[/quote]

No. You have to prove it's a lie.
And agian, you cannot disregard the thougths of everyone on the friggin planet. You honestly want to force a system that you see as better? How would that make you better - you would be forcing your will and ignoring everyone else, just because you think you are right.
And b.t.w - "but I am right  and they are not" is not an aswer. 

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
So the logical thing to do is to free them.

Actually no. The logical thing to do is to accept that donwside of the system and move on.

If you want to argue the opposite, you're free to walk into the maximum security prison and free all the prisoners there. I'm sure they'll be very gratefull.

I think populations of men, women, and children who are imprsioned for being mages are not akin to hardened criminals who broke the law.

You again miss the entire point of the comparison, which is one of the system being dismantled because of a minor flaw that cannot be removed and not the prisoners.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Xilizhra wrote...

There is no inherent problem with the Chantry being in-chage. (other than it's a religious instituation and you think religion is dumb)

Also, the Chant of Light and the interpretation thereof is distinctly magophobic. There's no possible way it can maintain neutral oversight.

So you say.
And I disagree.

[Urzon]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And agian, you cannot disregard the thougths of everyone on the friggin planet. You honestly want to force a system that you see as better? How would that make you better - you would be forcing your will and ignoring everyone else, just because you think you are right.
And b.t.w - "but I am right  and they are not" is not an aswer. 

I find this statement humorous, because that's exactly what the Chantry did to Thedas after it got founded.
Their reason why? "I am right, and you are not".

Modifié par Urzon, 20 juillet 2012 - 09:40 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Thing is, the common folk agree with the Chantry (for the most part).

If you want to force something onto the people, because someone else is forcing something onto someone else (mages) you would be no better.

[Urzon]

Sure, the common folk agree with the Chantry now, after centuries of rule, and them being born into the religion itself. The common folk has been raised by the ideals of the Chantry, thats why they agree with them. All their live they have been taught: "Mages need to be caged!", "Mages brought the Blight to Thedas!", "Mages are a danger to us all!", "Mages will use their magics to bewitch us!", and "If mages gain freedom, it will a rise of another Tevinter Imperium!!!".

It's hard not to agree with something, when it coinsides with what you were taught, your parents were taught, grandparents, etc.

Mages gaining more rights isn't forcing anything on anybody. If anything, it's cancelling only some of what the Chantry's forcing on them.

Modifié par Urzon, 20 juillet 2012 - 10:53 .

[Fallstar]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Just becasue you believe their techings to be drivel doesn't make it so.
If you have some proof the mages didn't casue the blight, present it. The entire worlds of TheDAs pretty much considers mages responsible for it.
Mages are dangerous. Fact.
Mages have been the cause of hte greatest disasters in the history of Thedas. Fact.
A perfeclty good and kind mage can still kill you against his will. Fact.

Also, templars begin chosen for the devotion is not a flaw at all. Every single army wants obedient soldiers. Soldiers selected for elite units have to be obedient. And beging devout and hating mages have no direct correlation. Take a look at Leliana for example.
If anything the love/hate tempalrs have for mages is a product of them being with the mages. Just as jailors either become attacked or compeltely detached with their prisoners, so do templars - and in a far greater scale, since templars know the mages for when they were kids. You saw Cullen when he was still in Ferelden. Did he look like he hated mages? Heck, he was in love with one. Even after all the torture he's been trough, he still feels for them.
But not everyone is like that. Other will close off, or hate mages after some turn into abominations and kill their friends.
You seem to think that the strenius relations between the templars nad mages are a product of the Chantry and nothing more. In reality, basic psychology will tell you that it's the product of their circumstances.

No. You have to prove it's a lie.
And agian, you cannot disregard the thougths of everyone on the friggin planet. You honestly want to force a system that you see as better? How would that make you better - you would be forcing your will and ignoring everyone else, just because you think you are right.
And b.t.w - "but I am right  and they are not" is not an aswer. 

Don't worry, I'm not saying "but I am right and they are not," I'm just going off what we are told in game. The Dwarves - who know more about the darkspawn than anyone save the Grey Wardens (and probably more than them) - say this about the Origin of the darkspawn.

"The surfacers claim that the first darkspawn fell from heaven. They spin tales of magic and sin. But the Children of the Stone know better. The darkspawn rose up out of the earth. For it was in the Deep Roads they first appeared. Creatures in our own likeness, armed and armored, but with no more intelligence than tezpadam, bestial and savage."

From Codex Entry: Darkspawn (Dwarven Warden Version)

As you can see, the darkspawn were sighted in the deep roads before the magisters tried to enter the black city. So now we have the account of dwarves (who know more than anyone about darkspawn) who have no reason to lie, versus the account of the Chantry (who know next to nothing about darkspawn) and have every reason to lie.

Personally that makes the dwarven account seem more reliable.

And as for there being no inherent problem with the chantry being in charge: sure the average Templar might not think mages are completely evil. And it has nothing to do with whether the Templars are devout or not. What it has to do with is that the belief about mages the Templars and the Chantry are founded on is based on a lie (see above about mages not being the original darkspawn). It has nothing to do with religion. Lets say that instead of the chantry, a completely non religous organisation was in charge of the mages. This organisation is in charge of the mages because it has spun the lie that the mages were the original darkspawn. Since this organisation's power over mages is based on said lie, it will never allow the truth about that lie to reach the general public, as to do would weaken their power over mages. Therefore having an organisation whose power is based on that lie - it could be chantry (it is in this case) or it could be anyone - is an inherently flawed idea.

[Xilizhra]

Also, templars begin chosen for the devotion is not a flaw at all. Every single army wants obedient soldiers. Soldiers selected for elite units have to be obedient. And beging devout and hating mages have no direct correlation. Take a look at Leliana for example.

Leliana is not a mainstream follower of the Chantry's teachings; she's highly idiosyncratic in her interpretation. Also, the templars deliberately select for amoral/immoral people.

If anything the love/hate tempalrs have for mages is a product of them being with the mages. Just as jailors either become attacked or compeltely detached with their prisoners, so do templars - and in a far greater scale, since templars know the mages for when they were kids. You saw Cullen when he was still in Ferelden. Did he look like he hated mages? Heck, he was in love with one. Even after all the torture he's been trough, he still feels for them.

Cullen was never in love with any mage, just potentially infatuated with one. And he didn't seem to feel for the mages after the Broken Circle incident, just be somewhat concerned over Meredith's growing insanity, which was itself not nearly a strong enough reaction.

And agian, you cannot disregard the thougths of everyone on the friggin planet. You honestly want to force a system that you see as better? How would that make you better - you would be forcing your will and ignoring everyone else, just because you think you are right.

Because I'm not imprisoning and torturing people unjustly based on the words of a bigoted and moronic religious system? Average citizens hearing about the Circles coming under different management isn't the same thing; they will get over it.

[xsamplexample]

 magic is too dangerous.... the mages need to be controlled.  I chose to side with the templars naturally..

[DPSSOC]

Nizaris1 wrote...

DuskWarden wrote..
"The surfacers claim that the first darkspawn fell from heaven. They spin tales of magic and sin. But the Children of the Stone know better. The darkspawn rose up out of the earth. For it was in the Deep Roads they first appeared. Creatures in our own likeness, armed and armored, but with no more intelligence than tezpadam, bestial and savage."

From Codex Entry: Darkspawn (Dwarven Warden Version)

Yes, the Chantry blame the mages who cause darkspawn is a cheap propaganda being used by such religious organization in the past. If you see the history of Crusade, the paintings, the literature, same thing being said about Muslims in the east, where being depicted as monsters who defile the Holy Land of Jerusalem. "Saracen" or "Moorish" is a nickname by western Christian toward the Arabs. In their art "Saracen" being depicted as black skinned, have curved savage looking sword, blood lust, red eyes, and many more monster looking, while actually the Arabs are not like that at all. And in fact the Arabs are far technological and civilized than the west at that time. Jerusalem under Arab/Muslim rule is better than under Romans/Greek and Western Crusaders.

Similar thing the Chantry demonizing the Mages and have similar story about "Tevinter Mages defiling the Black City/Golden City" with the crusade propaganda by Roman Catholic.

Similar cheap propaganda being used in War on Terror by USA.

DA:O intro feed us with the Chantry version of Darkspawn origin by Duncan, but in the game we can see it is not the truth.

To be fair if the darkspawn did exist before the magisters made with the hocus pocus they were dormant, directionless, and not pressing the Dwarves.  The magisters may not have created the darkspawn but they did something to kick the hornet's nest.  No matter how you slice it the magisters were responsible for the darkspawn, either creating them or causing them to become a problem.

On that codex entry do we have a timeline between when the magisters did their thing and when the First Blight can actually be said to have started, and where this falls in with the first sighting of the darkspawn by the Dwarves.  Is there enough time in there for the magisters to have been tainted, capture the odd Dwarven patrol or mining operation, and breed a darkspawn army?  We know from the Fifth Blight that the Archdemon is intelligent enough to lie in wait and bide it's time, could something similar have happened or is the time just not there?

[Fallstar]

That codex entry suggests that the Dwarves were actually fighting the darkspawn. Not that they noticed them and exchanged pleasantries. Whilst it wasn't a full scale blight, the darkspawn existed before the magisters tried to enter the black city.

Whatever the magisters did may have started the above ground blights, but the darkspawn existed before that. The alternative is that it simply took the darkspawn a longer time to find Dumat than the other old gods and the magisters had nothing to do with it.

Either way, the suggestion that the darkspawn are the fault of ancient mages is most likely incorrect.

[DPSSOC]

Do we actually know the Dwarves encountered the darkspawn prior to the First Blight?  The Codex says they came from underground but is there a time stamp on it saying whether this was before or after the magisters did their thing.  Like I said is there time between the magisters doing their thing and the dwarves first encounter with darkspawn for the magisters to have tainted some Dwarves and bred an army of genlocks at least.  Do the Dwarven Codex even give dates?  Do the Dwarves even use the same calender?

[dragonflight288]

We do know that the dwarves controlled the entire deep roads. Their empire covered all of Thedas. They had regular guards posted throughout to keep anyone from the surface from sneaking in and stealing or raiding them.

The darkspawn didn't come from above, but they came from beneath. Corypheus was sealed by the Grey Wardens in an elaborate prison. His comments make it clear that his actions and the Chantry's statements on those actions, didn't follow the same time-stamp. The Chantry's version of events isn't in touch with when those events happened.

[MisterJB]

dragonflight288 wrote...
The darkspawn didn't come from above, but they came from beneath. Corypheus was sealed by the Grey Wardens in an elaborate prison. His comments make it clear that his actions and the Chantry's statements on those actions, didn't follow the same time-stamp. The Chantry's version of events isn't in touch with when those events happened.

Could you elaborate on how Corypheus contradicts what the Chantry says?

If anything, I'd say he strengthens it. We now know for sure that Magisters did, indeed, invade the Black City, the Chantry got this right even if they don't seem to be aware of all the details. Corypheus suggests the Black City was already corrupted when they entered.
Unlike what that dwarven writing suggests, the Chant of Light never claimed the first Darkspawn came from heavens. Rather, it says that the corrupted Magisters fled undergroud and brought their taint to their gods which would explain why the dwarves first encoutered them in the deep roads.

[Fallstar]

MisterJB wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
The darkspawn didn't come from above, but they came from beneath. Corypheus was sealed by the Grey Wardens in an elaborate prison. His comments make it clear that his actions and the Chantry's statements on those actions, didn't follow the same time-stamp. The Chantry's version of events isn't in touch with when those events happened.

Could you elaborate on how Corypheus contradicts what the Chantry says?

If anything, I'd say he strengthens it. We now know for sure that Magisters did, indeed, invade the Black City, the Chantry got this right even if they don't seem to be aware of all the details. Corypheus suggests the Black City was already corrupted when they entered.
Unlike what that dwarven writing suggests, the Chant of Light never claimed the first Darkspawn came from heavens. Rather, it says that the corrupted Magisters fled undergroud and brought their taint to their gods which would explain why the dwarves first encoutered them in the deep roads.

The chantry records suggest that the magisters fled underground, at the height of the Dwarven Empire. Every single entrance to the Deep Roads would surely have been guarded. Furthermore, the dwarves state that the first darkspawn were not humanoid emisaries, which is what the Magisters are, but that they were in the dwarves own image. 

In other words the first darkspawn were genlocks. Since the magisters couldn't have been dwarves, it is impossible that the original darkspawn were magisters who somehow snuck past the Dwarven guards.

[MisterJB]

DuskWarden wrote...
The chantry records suggest that the magisters fled underground, at the height of the Dwarven Empire. Every single entrance to the Deep Roads would surely have been guarded. Furthermore, the dwarves state that the first darkspawn were not humanoid emisaries, which is what the Magisters are, but that they were in the dwarves own image. 

In other words the first darkspawn were genlocks. Since the magisters couldn't have been dwarves, it is impossible that the original darkspawn were magisters who somehow snuck past the Dwarven guards.

The Magisters could have used powerful magic to either sneak past or completely obliterate the garrison guarding a passage and this was blamed on human bandits. Or they could have found a forgotten and unguarded side passage or they even created one (during the Second Blight, the Darkspawn split the earth in two creating the Great Rift in Orlais which leads directly to the Deep Roads).

As for the genlocks, it simply means they were the first type of darkspawn encoutered by anyone. If all dwarves who chanced across the corrupted magisters were either killed or captured and used in experiments with the women turning into broodmothers, that would explain why the first "normal" darkspawn were genlocks.

Modifié par MisterJB, 21 juillet 2012 - 04:25 .

[Fallstar]

MisterJB wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...
The chantry records suggest that the magisters fled underground, at the height of the Dwarven Empire. Every single entrance to the Deep Roads would surely have been guarded. Furthermore, the dwarves state that the first darkspawn were not humanoid emisaries, which is what the Magisters are, but that they were in the dwarves own image. 

In other words the first darkspawn were genlocks. Since the magisters couldn't have been dwarves, it is impossible that the original darkspawn were magisters who somehow snuck past the Dwarven guards.

The Magisters could have used powerful magic to either sneak past or completely obliterate the garrison guarding a passage and this was blamed on human bandits. Or they could have found a forgotten and unguarded side passage or they even created one (during the Second Blight, the Darkspawn split the earth in two creating the Great Rift in Orlais which leads directly to the Deep Roads).

As for the genlocks, it simply means they were the first type of darkspawn encoutered by anyone. If all dwarves who chanced across the corrupted magisters were either killed or captured and used in experiments with the women turning into broodmothers, that would explain why the first "normal" darkspawn were genlocks.

That is also a perfectly viable possibility. The way I see it:

1. The first darkspawn are genlocks, therefore the chantry is wrong.
2. The magisters killed/stealthed their way into the Deep Roads. Then captured Dwarven women turning them into broodmothers. Genlocks are born and reported by the Dwarves as the first darkspawn. Therefore the chantry is right.

RIght now it is impossible to determine which is correct logically. So I'd use Occam's Razor and conclude that for now, the best explanation is that the first darkspawn were genlocks therefore the chantry is wrong.

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

Could you elaborate on how Corypheus contradicts what the Chantry says?

If anything, I'd say he strengthens it.

Given that the Chantry claims the Magisters attempted to steal the power the Maker's throne and caused the Golden City to turn black, while Corypheus makes it clear that the Magisters were heading to the Golden City because Dumat guided them to the Light and the City was already Black when they arrived, I don't see how it strengthens the Chantry's claim when it's factually inaccurate.

According to the codex entry, "The First Blight," Brother Genitivi wrote, "According to most versions of the tale, the magisters did indeed reach the Golden City and walked into the home of the Maker, where no living being before them had dared, or been able, to tread. But humanity is not meant to walk in heaven. The magisters were wicked with pride and other sins, and their presence tainted the Golden City. What once was a perfect, holy citadel became a twisted home of darkness and nightmares. The magisters were expelled back through their gateway and cursed for their treachery. As the Golden City had been tainted, so were the magisters twisted and transformed into things of darkness--the very first of the darkspawn. The Golden City, once a shining beacon at the heart of the Fade, became the Black City, a reminder of all that man's pride has cost."

If the Chantry is wrong about the cause behind the Golden City turning Black and the reason why the Magisters went to the Golden City in the first place, I don't see how their claim is strengthened. Corypheus doesn't even give any indication that he's aware of the Andrastian belief in the Maker.

MisterJB wrote...

We now know for sure that Magisters did, indeed, invade the Black City, the Chantry got this right even if they don't seem to be aware of all the details. Corypheus suggests the Black City was already corrupted when they entered.

If the Chantry claims the Magisters invaded the Golden City, and Corypheus says they entered the Black City, I don't think that means the Chantry got it right.

MisterJB wrote...

Unlike what that dwarven writing suggests, the Chant of Light never claimed the first Darkspawn came from heavens. Rather, it says that the corrupted Magisters fled undergroud and brought their taint to their gods which would explain why the dwarves first encoutered them in the deep roads.

We don't know if the Tevinter Magisters were the first darkspawn, or simply 'awakened' darkspawn. I don't recall the dwarven records addressing them seeing "awakened" darkspawn.

[dragonflight288]

Corypheus also is completely confused on where he is or the time. Add in the Grey Warden accounts of him being there for roughly 2000 years, while the history of the Chantry (at least I think that's the correct codex) talks about Tevinter being destroyed from within after the first blight by rebels like Andraste. And that was 1000 year previous.

So, and I openly admit I'm using some personal assumptions here and freely admit I may be wrong, and there may be lore I have forgotten about, but here I go anyway:

The first blight lasted 400 years because no one knew how to fight the darkspawn and the archdemon without it possessing nearby darkspawn and re spawning itself. The blight absolutely ravaged the surface until the Grey Wardens arose. The wardens were able to drive back the darkspawn and defeat the blight. I'd give Tevinter maybe 100 years after that to restore its military and its crops, as it takes decades for the land to recover from a blight, and this was a long blight.

So that takes us back roughly 1500 years from current events in Thedas. But based on the Grey Wardens testimony on imprisoning Corypheus again, it was 2000 years earlier. There is a very big gap in the timeline; 500 years.

Did the magisters sneak into the deep roads? Possibly. Could they have created darkspawn? I don't see that happening as Corypheus had absolutely no idea what was going on or where he was. He may have forgotten a lot in his sleep, but he knew about his invasion of the Black City, which was already black when he showed up. He talked of how he was guided by Dumat, and wasn't intent on stealing the maker's power at all. He didn't believe in the Maker.

So were the dwarves the first darkspawn with genlocks? Maybe. We have a 500 year gap to allow the darkspawn to build armies. But if the magisters were the ones who created the darkspawn, then Corypheus should've been much less confused.

And where did the Grey Wardens learn their joining ritual or figure out how to fight the archdemon if the order was only created during the blight, but they existed to lock up Corypheus 500 years earlier than that?

My personal feelings are that the darkspawn taint existed or was created beneath the surface. It was the magisters and their ability to influence those with the taint that brought about how serious the problem could be, and a blight that shows how dangerous it truly is.

At least, that's my personal interpretation based on my memory of the lore and events from the game. As I'm currently replaying through the games, I'll eventually get there and I may end up proving myself wrong, but hey, you can't learn without being wrong first.