673 réponses à ce sujet

[EricHVela]

If we're talking Dragon Age: Kirkwall's rendition of Templars and Circle, I find it difficult to side with Meredith as she willfully and premeditatively resorts to the very thing she's supposed to deny by her own words. It's dangerous to follow such hypocrisy.

In DA:K, it almost seems like Orsino panics and, while also willful, reacted to a threat rather than planned it out like Meredith. (That's if we're also ignoring out-of-narrative reasons for Orsino's boss fight.)

In DA:O, the hero accomplishes a more-peaceful solution (less bloodshed, less waste of life) by accepting the Templars' criteria for resolving the situation. This scenario involved both sides coming to an agreement.

However, I can also see scenarios where the mages are running amok with the Templars being under the heel of the Circle instead. Mages who do not bother to control their powers are dangerous. Their apathy towards the safety of themselves transfers as apathy towards everyone else. In that scenario, I would likely choose to mostly work with the Templars -- even of the player character is a mage as that might help prevent the scales from just tipping the other way with the Templars going over-zealous against all mages.

So far, that last scenario has not happened in the games.

[Dave of Canada]

Most of Thedosian society is based off aristrocrats, they hold influence over their nation's people and hold the leash of everyone else. As the nobleman and the guards under their employ rape and take what they want, the commoner tolerates it because they have no other fate--they're forced to accept it, as they have no education, no power.

And they don't "mind" it, they accept it because there's no alternative. They--just as our society in a similar era--must tolerate such "horrors" because there's no alternatives, raise your hand to a noble and risk it being cut off. People are captured and tortured for months/years, entire communities can be wiped out and any complaint about such a fate is responded with equal force.

Thus, the lowly commoner must tolerate the fact that they're powerless and live the rest of their lives with that fact in mind. Poor living conditions, disease, rape by their superiors, possiblity of being culled / tortured anytime for the slightest insult. All the while, they work the rest of their lives to try and not starve.

Yet, who complains loudest? The commoner who accepts the fact that the world in unjust? No, it's the mage who knows no other world than their comfortable lifestyle in the Circle.

They live free from the nobleman's whims, residing in their Circle tower living the lifestyle comparable to one. Education, food, clothes, soft beds and far more and their only requirement is learning their abilities, any laws broken result in tranquility or death--much similar to civilians.

Their alternative to the guards is the Templar, men and woman who answer to the Chantry--rather than the nobility--which realistically shouldn't be as abusive as the nobility, as the Chantry does not tolerate the abuse (unlike the nobles). However, even in the worst case, the mage resides in ideal living conditions to the average commoner.

The problem being that mages are  too ignorant of the outside world to see it like this, only seeing the open world as something taken from them and ignoring the rest of it. Thus, their cries for freedom are born out of ignorance. When they're cold and starving, perhaps they'll understand their lifestyle was taken for granted.

Thus, I cannot in good standing side with mages. They're dangerous, powerful and they live in ideal conditions despite the danger they pose. The Templar may not have any larger idealistic goal, though they stand for the good common folk who's lives are already miserable enough without whining mages involving themselves.

Now I feel the hordes of (most) pro-mage players coming with their modern view of the world, spouting that freedom is the best but ignoring everything else.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 19 juin 2012 - 03:36 .

[DKJaigen]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Most of Thedosian society is based off aristrocrats, they hold influence over their nation's people and hold the leash of everyone else. As the nobleman and the guards under their employ rape and take what they want, the commoner tolerates it because they have no other fate--they're forced to accept it, as they have no education, no power.

And they don't "mind" it, they accept it because there's no alternative. They--just as our society in a similar era--must tolerate such "horrors" because there's no alternatives, raise your hand to a noble and risk it being cut off. People are captured and tortured for months/years, entire communities can be wiped out and any complaint about such a fate is responded with equal force.

Thus, the lowly commoner must tolerate the fact that they're powerless and live the rest of their lives with that fact in mind. Poor living conditions, disease, rape by their superiors, possiblity of being culled / tortured anytime for the slightest insult. All the while, they work the rest of their lives to try and not starve.

Yet, who complains loudest? The commoner who accepts the fact that the world in unjust? No, it's the mage who knows no other world than their comfortable lifestyle in the Circle.

They live free from the nobleman's whims, residing in their Circle tower living the lifestyle comparable to one. Education, food, clothes, soft beds and far more and their only requirement is learning their abilities, any laws broken result in tranquility or death--much similar to civilians.

Their alternative to the guards is the Templar, men and woman who answer to the Chantry--rather than the nobility--which realistically shouldn't be as abusive as the nobility, as the Chantry does not tolerate the abuse (unlike the nobles). However, even in the worst case, the mage resides in ideal living conditions to the average commoner.

The problem being that mages are  too ignorant of the outside world to see it like this, only seeing the open world as something taken from them and ignoring the rest of it. Thus, their cries for freedom are born out of ignorance. When they're cold and starving, perhaps they'll understand their lifestyle was taken for granted.

Thus, I cannot in good standing side with mages. They're dangerous, powerful and they live in ideal conditions despite the danger they pose. The Templar may not have any larger idealistic goal, though they stand for the good common folk who's lives are already miserable enough without whining mages involving themselves.

Now I feel the hordes of (most) pro-mage players coming with their modern view of the world, spouting that freedom is the best but ignoring everything else.

Yeah Dave the common populace accepted the horrible treatment the nobility of the medieval times put them through! NOT! FFS if people accepted it then you would still have no rights. I consider this to be an epic fail of an argument or have you forgotten how many rebellions and revolutions their where in the past? Also for the last time one wrong doesnt make another wrong right. The mages are completely justified to protest their treatment just as much as the common populace are.

Second part you you far more stuck in the modern times then most other people are. You dont seem to understand that mages are the only thing that prevents a complete genocide of the human species. While the enemies of humanity are evolving the chantry does allow any improvement to be made to magical doctrine. In the time they will face a blight (or another magical enemy) they cannot stop and is humantiy is gone. Supporting the templars theirfore is supporting genocide of the humans, elves, dwarves and even the qunari.

Is a few abominations and a couple of thousand deaths a worthwile prize to pay for humanity continued survival. The answer is yes.

Modifié par DKJaigen, 19 juin 2012 - 04:17 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Most of Thedosian society is based off aristrocrats, they hold influence over their nation's people and hold the leash of everyone else. As the nobleman and the guards under their employ rape and take what they want, the commoner tolerates it because they have no other fate--they're forced to accept it, as they have no education, no power.

And they don't "mind" it, they accept it because there's no alternative. They--just as our society in a similar era--must tolerate such "horrors" because there's no alternatives, raise your hand to a noble and risk it being cut off. People are captured and tortured for months/years, entire communities can be wiped out and any complaint about such a fate is responded with equal force.

Thus, the lowly commoner must tolerate the fact that they're powerless and live the rest of their lives with that fact in mind. Poor living conditions, disease, rape by their superiors, possiblity of being culled / tortured anytime for the slightest insult. All the while, they work the rest of their lives to try and not starve.

Yet, who complains loudest? The commoner who accepts the fact that the world in unjust? No, it's the mage who knows no other world than their comfortable lifestyle in the Circle.

They live free from the nobleman's whims, residing in their Circle tower living the lifestyle comparable to one. Education, food, clothes, soft beds and far more and their only requirement is learning their abilities, any laws broken result in tranquility or death--much similar to civilians.

Their alternative to the guards is the Templar, men and woman who answer to the Chantry--rather than the nobility--which realistically shouldn't be as abusive as the nobility, as the Chantry does not tolerate the abuse (unlike the nobles). However, even in the worst case, the mage resides in ideal living conditions to the average commoner.

The problem being that mages are  too ignorant of the outside world to see it like this, only seeing the open world as something taken from them and ignoring the rest of it. Thus, their cries for freedom are born out of ignorance. When they're cold and starving, perhaps they'll understand their lifestyle was taken for granted.

Thus, I cannot in good standing side with mages. They're dangerous, powerful and they live in ideal conditions despite the danger they pose. The Templar may not have any larger idealistic goal, though they stand for the good common folk who's lives are already miserable enough without whining mages involving themselves.

Now I feel the hordes of (most) pro-mage players coming with their modern view of the world, spouting that freedom is the best but ignoring everything else.

The Chantry seems to tolerate more than you give it credit for, at least in Kirkwall.

As for the commoners envying them... in Ferelden, you have a point. The templars are not overly abusive, and if you ask to leave they deflect you with humor rather than a lobotomy. The commoners, meanwhile, have to worry about where their next meal is coming from, and if they're elven, they have to worry about a lot more. (A lot of the horrors of medieval society you mention are more true for an elf in Ferelden than a human.)

That said, it would suck to be a commoner of any sort in Orlais. The fact that they don't seem to treat their mages crappily, from what I understand, combined with the nobles' privilege, means that being a mage in Orlais is probably the safest thing to be. (It's certainly safer than being a noble, thanks to the Game.)

As to mages being dangerous... well, mostly that seems to be the rebel mages. Irving is probably simultaneously the most powerful and least dangerous mage in Ferelden, with Wynne maybe second in both. Of course, neither of them seems to have wanted freedom until it became clear that the Mage-Templar war was happening around them, regardless of their own actions. They don't seem to be for getting rid of all the Templars, either, as there seem to be Templars fighting alongside them.

As to which I side with... in Ferelden, there is literally no choice to be made. Greagoir is actually trying to look out for his charges. He is an honest man, who tries his honest best to keep the Circle well administrated. He's strict, yes, but he's still doing his job. In Kirkwall, it has to be the mages past a certain point. When Meridith tries to annul the Circle, she has crossed the line. Before that point, I think it has to be the Templars, to the (considerable) extent that there is conflict between the sides. One could, however, make an argument that the mages are still in the right even then.

[Lazy Jer]

Emzamination wrote...
She tries to side with mages over her own flesh and blood that has looked out for her since she was a child.I consider that corrupt if not evil.

Meredith directly says "All mages must die." when she initiates the Rite of Annulment.  How 'bout cutting her a little slack on not siding with her brother on this one?

[Emzamination]

[quote]Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

No argument from me as to Morrigan herself, however, the fact remains that there probably are apostates who don't know blood magic. The fact that she isn't one of those doesn't have anything to do with that. [/quote]

Every mage can tap into blood magic, all it takes is one cut as anders points out in Da2 "So how did you get become a blood mage, did you just cut yourself and feel the power in your blood?".The fact that they don't do doesn't mean they won't resort to it as the circle mages of kirkwall prove.

[quote]
Apparently, Jowan has no idea how to summon a demon, and no texts which explain it. I think the idea is that Connor met it in the Fade. Also, the reason for the deal was because Connor's father was weakening, and for all Connor knew, was dying. It wasn't curiosity, it was panic. Some of the mages are as bad as you say, in fact a lot of the ones we meet in-game are. Connor isn't. [/quote]

I believe either you find connor's journal upstairs or he tells you when confronted that while jowan was sleeping he snuck into his room and stole one of his magic books out his bag.

[quote]
A lot of these innocents were mages. You don't seem to mention them on your list.[/quote]

I was talking about the mages

[quote]Some of them would have cut her up without even a shred of moral debate. Why would she tell them? Or risk them finding out? [/quote]

They would have done what they must, we can not start bending the rules of the order because an abomination appears harmless.

[quote]To the extent that Anders' original decision was justified, it was because Justice was relatively tame before he took up residence in Anders' head. Still a foolish risk to take, and one many innocent people paid for. [/quote]

Letting a foreign entity merge with you is never justified.I feel bad the poor spirit was trapped outside the fade but that's just too bad, let it 'die' and move on.

[quote]She knew she was risking having the demon possess her. She did not realize Marethari would take that bullet for her. As for the mirror resulting in what happened to her friends, she seems to have solved the problem that lead to that. I don't see how what happened to Tamlen and the potential Warden really has any bearing on Merril's decision after she cleans the mirror. [/quote]

She's even worse because she knew the risk and yet did it anyway, sodding mages.How many more merrills must thedas endure before humanity is enslaved by demons from a summoning gone awry??

[quote] She and her associates (I don't think "consorts" means what you think it means) were working for an absolute nut who wanted to rule the world. I'm not arguing with your ultimate moral assesment, but seriously, I've never played the game. I shouldn't know the character's motivations better than you. [/quote]

Take it up with her, her words not mine.

[quote]I have no idea who you're talking about, since I've never actually played DA2. That said, do we actually see him personally using forbidden magic? Of any kind? [/quote]

His name is Allan and yes although he uses the blood magic to release hawkes loved one, it still shows the boy was versed in the dark arts!

[quote]Dying with dignity? Overrated. It's still dying.[/quote]

I dunno... Howe was a snake and a coward but atleast he died like a champ cursing the warden's name to the fade.I find it preferable to die like howe rather than screaming my head off.

[quote]Mages Collective From Dragon Age: Origins- Not a single bit like you describe all mages as being. They enforce the Chantries laws among themselves, either for moral reasons or because that sort of magic is just too much trouble. Some of the missions for them even include taking down blood mages that the Collective has noticed. [/quote]

The mages collective was completely questionable.One Annonymous mage ask you to collect him to ancient places of power with one of those places being right inside the circle tower.Another mystery mage ask you to collect ancient scrolls and give it to him.Another mage outright abandoned his apostate apprentices.Another mage's apprentice became an abomination.Another mage ask you to stop a group of travelers from falsely reporting him as a blood mage but if they hadn't seen any blood or blood magic, what reason would they have to report him? The collective ask you to put blood on the door of the familys of blood mages, couldn't find a better warning sign than that like I don't know...maybe a notice under the door? They were bribing templars!

[quote]Irving- The Knight-Commander comes right out and says that if Irving says the problem is solved, it's solved. The Templars have more respect for some mages than you do. [/quote]

Irving is a chantry templar loyal to the divine.He's weak and so is the divine, I'm with the inquisition, a different sect of templars who have no trouble doing what needs to be done to ensure peace in thedas.

[quote]Niall- Actually tried to help save the innocents Uldred was killing/controlling. If it weren't for him, it's debatable whether anyone the Warden was with would have known to grab the Litany, and the Warden would have had a hell of a time figuring out the way that section of the Fade worked. [/quote]

His life was powering those nightmares, if it weren't for him and his mommy issues, sloth would've had no way to send the warden to that fade realm.Peasants should leave the heroics to the experts.

[The Elder King]

Emzamination wrote...



Irving is a chantry templar loyal to the divine.He's weak and so is the divine, I'm with the inquisition, a different sect of templars who have no trouble doing what needs to be done to ensure peace in thedas.

Irving is the First Enchanter of the Ferelden Circle of Magi. Gregoir is the Knight-Commander.
And the Inquisition isn't a  different sect of the templars. The Inquisition was an organization that have the objective of hunting blood mages before the rise of the Chantry. The Chantry and the Inquisition made a deal (don't remember the name) and the Inquisition was split in two organizations: the Templar Order and the Seekers of Truth.
Though I think that the Inquisition represented well your opinions.

His life was powering those nightmares, if it weren't for him and his mommy issues, sloth would've had no way to send the warden to that fade realm.Peasants should leave the heroics to the experts.

Yeah, he should've just die without trying anything<_<. You should remember that even in the Warden's party, only Sten and Morrigan realized that they were trapped, and yet they didn't have the strenght or the willpower to escape.

Modifié par hhh89, 19 juin 2012 - 08:34 .

[Emzamination]

DPSSOC wrote...

Ooh I've got one; Kolgrim wasn't a mage.  I mean not to split too fine a hair but if you're citing examples to demonize mages you might want to restrict them to actual mages.

Overall I side with the Templars though at the end I side with the mages (Meredith is clearly in the wrong in that particular instance).  I side with the Templars because while they're behaviour in Kirkwall is abhorrent (and I kill most of those bastards), they are generally right about mages needing to be locked away..

The isolation of mages from the rest of society is necessary because of the amount of power they weild.  A mage, on accident, can do more harm than any individual of equal standing with malicious intent.  In the Magi Origin we see a mage learning to control fire and it gets out of control, imagine if that happened in a village while a mage was trying to practice at home.  It isn't just about what they might choose to do if they were free it's about what they might do simply by nature of being human/elven and fallible.

More personal isolation, from family and loved ones, is also a sad necessity, for much the same reason it is for the Jedi in Star Wars.  Quentin's wife died and it drove him to become a serial killer and necromancer and Connor's father fell ill and it lead to him making a pact with a demon (even unknowingly).  The day to day social interactions with people we care about put a lot of strain on us and drive us to do some rather stupid things.  Mages need to remain calm in order to maitain control of their magic, and what they can do if they lose that control necessitates a degree of enforced emotional isolation.

To the "backed into a corner" defenders of mages who go abomination I'd simply like to point out that people get backed into corners all the time living free too.

Kolgrim tried to used a blood magic ritual to commit heresy of the highest offence, mana running through his veins or no we must not let technicalities like that stop justice from being done.He and anyone else who uses or studies blood magic be it text or artifact is considered a blood mage in my eyes.

Lots of normal men lose their wives like maric,cyrion,loghain but they did not turn to murder and perverted maker forsaken magics, he is just another mage succumb to the lure of demons.It's funny you should mention the jedi, how much more relief thedas would have if the templars were given order 66.

[The Elder King]

Emzamination wrote...


Kolgrim tried to used a blood magic ritual to commit heresy of the highest offence, mana running through his veins or no we must not let technicalities like that stop justice from being done.He and anyone else who uses or studies blood magic be it text or artifact is considered a blood mage in my eyes.

Lots of normal men lose their wives like maric,cyrion,loghain but they did not turn to murder and perverted maker forsaken magics, he is just another mage succumb to the lure of demons.It's funny you should mention the jedi, how much more relief thedas would have if the templars were given order 66.

First, he didn't succumb to the lure of the demons. It was the dragon's blood that gave Korgrim and his group of fanatics the Reaver power, and while it could be considered a type of blood magic, the dragon wasn't a demon.
Second, he wasn't a mage. You could say that he's like other mages who succumb to the lure of demons (though as I said, no demon gave him power).

Modifié par hhh89, 19 juin 2012 - 08:37 .

[Emzamination]

hhh89 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

I support Inquisition 100% because mages are below animals, they don't learn from the mistakes of the past.Every time a mage is given a little freedom or back into a corner they resort to comunicating with demons and blood magic.
There are a host more but this is getting long.Mages have proven they are too stupid to be trusted with freedom or rights like normal men/women so they must be caged and chained like the qunari mages or they can be made tranquil and if they can't get with either, they can have the demonic gateways they call heads removed from their necks.Mages have had chance after chance to prove themselves but they just keep sodding up.My loyalties lye with the The inquisition/The templars and the lord seeker.

At least in this case the mages will not going to be raped, unless the templars are interested in having sex with beast
The qunari method will not work. Or better, it could work until the qunari will invade Thedas. Then the mages will flee to the Imperium when they'll get the chance.
The qunari method works in the Qun because their mages believe that the Qun is right. They believe that they're too dangerous to be left with freedom. I really doubt that the mages in the rest of Thedas will agree on that. This method could work if you have decades to brainwash the mages, and Thedas doesn't have the time. They're going to be invaded by the qunari before it'll work.
Good luck with the Tranquil method. You'll practically stab yourself, since Thedas will lose the only asset that could save Thedas from the qunari. Magic is the only thing in which we're superior to the qunari. Without it (or with the mages treated as beasts) the Chantry will be destroyed easily.

As long as no abominations are running rampant and demons are not stepping foot in thedas, let the templars do that they want, the mages have already proven they can never rise abover perversion anyway.

The qunari invasion was a century or two ago and at that time they were a new species on thedas and completely unknown, in short we were taken by surprise.Your right, mages were crucial in turning the tide but we've had centuries to learn to kill and deal with this menace and as kirkwall proves, templars are just as efficent at killing qunari as mages.

[Emzamination]

Lazy Jer wrote...

Emzamination wrote...
She tries to side with mages over her own flesh and blood that has looked out for her since she was a child.I consider that corrupt if not evil.

Meredith directly says "All mages must die." when she initiates the Rite of Annulment.  How 'bout cutting her a little slack on not siding with her brother on this one?

Merill is a mage and meredith has no problem with her accompanying hawke because she is a friend of the champion.Bethany chose her 'people' over her kin and thus chose her fate.

[Emzamination]

hhh89 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...



Irving is a chantry templar loyal to the divine.He's weak and so is the divine, I'm with the inquisition, a different sect of templars who have no trouble doing what needs to be done to ensure peace in thedas.

Irving is the First Enchanter of the Ferelden Circle of Magi. Gregoir is the Knight-Commander.
And the Inquisition isn't a  different sect of the templars. The Inquisition was an organization that have the objective of hunting blood mages before the rise of the Chantry. The Chantry and the Inquisition made a deal (don't remember the name) and the Inquisition was split in two organizations: the Templar Order and the Seekers of Truth.
Though I think that the Inquisition represented well your opinions.

His life was powering those nightmares, if it weren't for him and his mommy issues, sloth would've had no way to send the warden to that fade realm.Peasants should leave the heroics to the experts.

Yeah, he should've just die without trying anything<_<. You should remember that even in the Warden's party, only Sten and Morrigan realized that they were trapped, and yet they didn't have the strenght or the willpower to escape.

 
Oooops mah bad lol, I was so busy replying I got the names mixed up  The inquisition is making a comeback thanks to lord seeker lambert  

[Ryzaki]

@Emzamination: why don't you just make Bethany a warden? She'll freely side with Hawke against the mages then.

[The Elder King]

Emzamination wrote...


As long as no abominations are running rampant and demons are not stepping foot in thedas, let the templars do that they want, the mages have already proven they can never rise abover perversion anyway.

The qunari invasion was a century or two ago and at that time they were a new species on thedas and completely unknown, in short we were taken by surprise.Your right, mages were crucial in turning the tide but we've had centuries to learn to kill and deal with this menace and as kirkwall proves, templars are just as efficent at killing qunari as mages.

Are you kidding?
Templars are good/great warriors, but they have an advantage on mages with their templar powers (which could be defined as a type of magic). They're (should be) the mages hunter. Against other foes, they're as good as another strong and disciplined army.
And no, the qunari have a strong advantage in technology. They didn't nearly conquer Thedas just because Thedas was "taken by surprise". One of the major elements (if not the most important) for the victory against the qunari was the mages. Templars were already present when the qunari arrived, and yet they didn't stop them. It took an alliance of nations to stop them.
The templars are a strong military order, but they're not the best. The armies of Orlais and Nevarra are probably better than the templars (except in hunting mages). You're overstimating the Templar's abilities.

[Emzamination]

hhh89 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...


Kolgrim tried to used a blood magic ritual to commit heresy of the highest offence, mana running through his veins or no we must not let technicalities like that stop justice from being done.He and anyone else who uses or studies blood magic be it text or artifact is considered a blood mage in my eyes.

Lots of normal men lose their wives like maric,cyrion,loghain but they did not turn to murder and perverted maker forsaken magics, he is just another mage succumb to the lure of demons.It's funny you should mention the jedi, how much more relief thedas would have if the templars were given order 66.

First, he didn't succumb to the lure of the demons. It was the dragon's blood that gave Korgrim and his group of fanatics the Reaver power, and while it could be considered a type of blood magic, the dragon wasn't a demon.
Second, he wasn't a mage. You could say that he's like other mages who succumb to the lure of demons (though as I said, no demon gave him power).

It was a blood magic ritual and the knowlege of blood magic came first from demons.The dragon's blood was but a component /catalyst.He practiced arcane arts, I hardly think him not having should seperate him from the majority.He's just as bad as the rest.

[Emzamination]

Ryzaki wrote...

@Emzamination: why don't you just make Bethany a warden? She'll freely side with Hawke against the mages then.

She is still family and I would not see her cursed with an hour glass on her life or denied the ability to carry on the hawke bloodline as the warden was.

[The Elder King]

Emzamination wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...


Kolgrim tried to used a blood magic ritual to commit heresy of the highest offence, mana running through his veins or no we must not let technicalities like that stop justice from being done.He and anyone else who uses or studies blood magic be it text or artifact is considered a blood mage in my eyes.

Lots of normal men lose their wives like maric,cyrion,loghain but they did not turn to murder and perverted maker forsaken magics, he is just another mage succumb to the lure of demons.It's funny you should mention the jedi, how much more relief thedas would have if the templars were given order 66.

First, he didn't succumb to the lure of the demons. It was the dragon's blood that gave Korgrim and his group of fanatics the Reaver power, and while it could be considered a type of blood magic, the dragon wasn't a demon.
Second, he wasn't a mage. You could say that he's like other mages who succumb to the lure of demons (though as I said, no demon gave him power).

It was a blood magic ritual and the knowlege of blood magic came first from demons.The dragon's blood was but a component /catalyst.He practiced arcane arts, I hardly think him not having should seperate him from the majority.He's just as bad as the rest.

I'm not saying that he's not bad. I'm saying that he's not a mage. Though you believe that mage=evil (or so it seems from your post).
Plus, even if demons were involved (which as far as I remember was not confirmed) Kolgrim wasn't directly involved in the blood magic. His mages were/should be involved.

[The Elder King]

Emzamination wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

@Emzamination: why don't you just make Bethany a warden? She'll freely side with Hawke against the mages then.

She is still family and I would not see her cursed with an hour glass on her life or denied the ability to carry on the hawke bloodline as the warden was.

It's better to live in a Circle where the mages were tortured and raped?
Plus, the Hawke's bloodline will not continue if Bethany's a mage, at least officially. Mages's children are taken away and watched by the Chantry.

[Emzamination]

hhh89 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...


As long as no abominations are running rampant and demons are not stepping foot in thedas, let the templars do that they want, the mages have already proven they can never rise abover perversion anyway.

The qunari invasion was a century or two ago and at that time they were a new species on thedas and completely unknown, in short we were taken by surprise.Your right, mages were crucial in turning the tide but we've had centuries to learn to kill and deal with this menace and as kirkwall proves, templars are just as efficent at killing qunari as mages.

Are you kidding?
Templars are good/great warriors, but they have an advantage on mages with their templar powers (which could be defined as a type of magic). They're (should be) the mages hunter. Against other foes, they're as good as another strong and disciplined army.
And no, the qunari have a strong advantage in technology. They didn't nearly conquer Thedas just because Thedas was "taken by surprise". One of the major elements (if not the most important) for the victory against the qunari was the mages. Templars were already present when the qunari arrived, and yet they didn't stop them. It took an alliance of nations to stop them.
The templars are a strong military order, but they're not the best. The armies of Orlais and Nevarra are probably better than the templars (except in hunting mages). You're overstimating the Templar's abilities.

The templars actually have the advantage, hawke and the warden both are capable of slaughtering whole contingents of qunari single handedly and they are but a single person mage or no.Warriors are just as capable of meeting qunari in combat as mages and on the plus side templars would be render qunari mages useless as well.If the technology you're referring to is their powder then it's not a issue.That is why we have rogues and spys like leliana for infiltration and sabotage.

[Ophir147]

Where is everyone getting the idea that mages are being raped? AFAIK, the templars in Kirkwall were definitely getting out of control, but I don't recall that ever extending beyond tranquilization and death.

It may be that the writers wanted people to think that (for whatever reason) that the Gallows was a cesspool of endless gang rape, but they were there any mages that were explicitly presented as having been a rape victim?

The reason I say is that many people would consider rape to be an even more heinous offense than murder, and I certainly agree that it would takes a special kind of sociopath to commit such a deed. Throwing accusations of rape around seems like little more than speculation at this point

[Emzamination]

hhh89 wrote...

I'm not saying that he's not bad. I'm saying that he's not a mage. Though you believe that mage=evil (or so it seems from your post).
Plus, even if demons were involved (which as far as I remember was not confirmed) Kolgrim wasn't directly involved in the blood magic. His mages were/should be involved.

He can't conjure the power of the elements at will but that does not make him any less a mage for dabbling in the arcane.Avernus confirms it in warden's keep "blood magic came first from demon's and they could counter any of my lore but the taint, this is foreign to them and has power".What he did didn't require any mana, only dragon's blood and w/e else hitting the ashes.

[Emzamination]

hhh89 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

@Emzamination: why don't you just make Bethany a warden? She'll freely side with Hawke against the mages then.

She is still family and I would not see her cursed with an hour glass on her life or denied the ability to carry on the hawke bloodline as the warden was.

It's better to live in a Circle where the mages were tortured and raped?
Plus, the Hawke's bloodline will not continue if Bethany's a mage, at least officially. Mages's children are taken away and watched by the Chantry.

I'm quite sure no templar is suicidal enough to beat and rape the sister of the champion/vicount of kirkwall.Anyways I was generalizing, personally It would be more prudent for me to make bethany a first enchanter to exert more influence over the mages and keep them in line via someone they sympathise with and trust.

[The Elder King]

Emzamination wrote...

The templars actually have the advantage, hawke and the warden both are capable of slaughtering whole contingents of qunari single handedly and they are but a single person mage or no.Warriors are just as capable of meeting qunari in combat as mages and on the plus side templars would be render qunari mages useless as well.If the technology you're referring to is their powder then it's not a issue.That is why we have rogues and spys like leliana for infiltration and sabotage.

The fact that they could be better warriors isn't an advantage . The templars have an advantage over mages because their abilities directly affects mages. Their abilities didn't have any effects on non-mages. And you shouldn't consider the fact that Hawke slayed countless of qunari in the gameplay that highly. And the Wardens are the finest warriors. It's normal that they could survive against the qunari (and they fled anyway for their reasons).
You should remember that after the qunari decide to conquer Kirkwall, it didn't take long to conquer it. They defeated both templars and the city guards. Withouth Hawke, Kirkwall would've been doomed. Hawke stopped the invasion only because he defeated the Arishok, and the qunari had no reason to stay on Kirkwall. Otherwise, I'll doubt that the invasion could've been stopped without and Exalted March.
We have to agree that we disagree with each other. You think that Thedas could take on the qunari without mages. I think that even with mages stopping the qunari will be a difficult task. They are preparing the invasion since the peace (which they consider an armistice), while the Thedas places aren't (probably) preparing for block them, since they think that the treaty is a good enough to preven war.
And you should consider that the mages-templar war, as well as other civil wars, will seriously weaken the military strenght of Thedas.

[Emzamination]

Ophir147 wrote...

Where is everyone getting the idea that mages are being raped? AFAIK, the templars in Kirkwall were definitely getting out of control, but I don't recall that ever extending beyond tranquilization and death.

It may be that the writers wanted people to think that (for whatever reason) that the Gallows was a cesspool of endless gang rape, but they were there any mages that were explicitly presented as having been a rape victim?

The reason I say is that many people would consider rape to be an even more heinous offense than murder, and I certainly agree that it would takes a special kind of sociopath to commit such a deed. Throwing accusations of rape around seems like little more than speculation at this point

There is that one mage in the gallows during act 2 that says a templar told him that if he ever told anyone the templar came to his quarters at night he'd be made tranquil.He's not explicitly stating he's raped no but what else is there to think?

[Dave of Canada]

DKJaigen wrote...

Yeah Dave the common populace accepted the horrible treatment the nobility of the medieval times put them through! NOT! FFS if people accepted it then you would still have no rights.

So, the peasantry decided "okay, I don't want life to suck anymore, I want freedom!" and then the nobility said "okay"? Reform and changes took generations, different idealogies blending together throughout the years with conquest and war occuring throughout.

Nobility had full control of everything, they were highborn and the only people they answered to were others of gentle birth. They controlled the guard, they controlled the taxes and they controlled the lives of their people--whether those people liked it or not.

A nobleman walks into a village and demands to spend a night with your wife, what do you do? "No sir"? He'll damn well take the wife regardless of your protests, he might just beat your severely for disrespecting him. Ah yes, guess you have a point: those commoners didn't accept it, they had to.

I consider this to be an epic fail of an argument or have you forgotten how many rebellions and revolutions their where in the past?

How many succeeded? Of the minority which succeeded, how many installed better alternatives to the occupation? When an invading king rules the land with his nobles and he's thrown out, they replace him with another king. That doesn't mean the world turns to sunshine and happiness, it just means the occupation was kicked out and there's some differences of culture introduced.

Often times, the occupation had a severe impact on their culture whether they like it or not. Look at Ferelden's nobles wearing Orlesian wear, rather than focusing on furs and such (which is far more sensible in Ferelden).

Also for the last time one wrong doesnt make another wrong right.

Your modern views are showing.

It isn't "wrong" for Thedas because it's common-place and lived with. Values change with time and eventually things may become "wrong" but those who live then don't see the error of their ways, just like a nation with slavery won't see what's wrong with it despite everyone else judging them.

Stop viewing the commoner's lifestyle as "wrong" and suddenly the mage issue isn't "wrong", it's suddenly very enviable.

The mages are completely justified to protest their treatment just as much as the common populace are.

Then the appropriate response is living with it or death, no?

Second part you you far more stuck in the modern times then most other people are.

Ha.

You dont seem to understand that mages are the only thing that prevents a complete genocide of the human species.

Hahahaha, this is going to be good.

While the enemies of humanity are evolving the chantry does allow any improvement to be made to magical doctrine. *snip*

How are the enemies of humanity "evolving"? The most common threat is other nations, which thankfully has mages regulated by the Chantry and prevents wars from becoming "who has the most mages".

Qunari mages are woefully under-par despite them trying to use them more often, Tevinter is too preoccupied with the Qunari to become any real threat and the Darkspawn don't "evolve" (unless you mean the Architect, which I've killed).

Despite all of this, don't you forget that dwarves are resistant to magic and Templar can shut down their powers? Any invasion force which "evolves" has counters built into the Chantry's system, otherwise Templar groups would have far more trouble with renegade blood mage groups.

Hell, except for the Darkspawn, any other faction's victory means very little. An occupation of your nation with similar laws, unless it's Qunari which introduces a different system of government which might benefit the average commoner.

Is a few abominations and a couple of thousand deaths a worthwile prize to pay for humanity continued survival. The answer is yes.

Yeah, no. Mages =/= survival.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 19 juin 2012 - 09:20 .