673 réponses à ce sujet

[Ophir147]

Emzamination wrote...

There is that one mage in the gallows during act 2 that says a templar told him that if he ever told anyone the templar came to his quarters at night he'd be made tranquil.He's not explicitly stating he's raped no but what else is there to think?

That does sound suspicious, but it's still basing an incredibly heavy accusation on nothing more than exfomation and speculation, and seems like a silly and contrived point of debate.

I just wish people would stop talking about rape as if it's another bullet point of solid evidence when it's only implied.

Modifié par Ophir147, 19 juin 2012 - 09:22 .

[The Elder King]

Emzamination wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

I'm not saying that he's not bad. I'm saying that he's not a mage. Though you believe that mage=evil (or so it seems from your post).
Plus, even if demons were involved (which as far as I remember was not confirmed) Kolgrim wasn't directly involved in the blood magic. His mages were/should be involved.

He can't conjure the power of the elements at will but that does not make him any less a mage for dabbling in the arcane.Avernus confirms it in warden's keep "blood magic came first from demon's and they could counter any of my lore but the taint, this is foreign to them and has power".What he did didn't require any mana, only dragon's blood and w/e else hitting the ashes.

A person that dabble in the arcane isn't a mage. A mage is someone who could travel in the Fade outside his dream, and that can use his will to manipulate the world. Kolgrim couldn't do any magic, couldn't travel in the Fade, so he wasn't a mage.
Avernus used the taint, yes, but he can manipulated it because he was both a grey warden and a mage.

[Dave of Canada]

Ophir147 wrote...

Where is everyone getting the idea that mages are being raped?

Ser Karras raped Alain in Act 1 and you've got Alrik which suggests doing so to Tranquil, though they're (illegal) exceptions and not the norm.

[The Elder King]

Ophir147 wrote...

Where is everyone getting the idea that mages are being raped? AFAIK, the templars in Kirkwall were definitely getting out of control, but I don't recall that ever extending beyond tranquilization and death.

It may be that the writers wanted people to think that (for whatever reason) that the Gallows was a cesspool of endless gang rape, but they were there any mages that were explicitly presented as having been a rape victim?

The reason I say is that many people would consider rape to be an even more heinous offense than murder, and I certainly agree that it would takes a special kind of sociopath to commit such a deed. Throwing accusations of rape around seems like little more than speculation at this point

The templar who proposed to the Divine to make every mages Tranquil raped mages. A mage in the Gallows said that he was called more than one time to his bedroom, and from the dialogue of this templar and a female mage in Ander's quest, you could easily understand that he was thinking of raping her.

[The Elder King]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Ophir147 wrote...

Where is everyone getting the idea that mages are being raped?

Ser Karras raped Alain in Act 1 and you've got Alrik which suggests doing so to Tranquil, though they're (illegal) exceptions and not the norm.

True, it's illegal and it's not the norm, though we don't know how many Templars might have done this in Kirkwall. I'm not saying that every Templars do this. They're probably in the minority, but the numbers are (probably) increased in Kirkwall.

[Emzamination]

hhh89 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

The templars actually have the advantage, hawke and the warden both are capable of slaughtering whole contingents of qunari single handedly and they are but a single person mage or no.Warriors are just as capable of meeting qunari in combat as mages and on the plus side templars would be render qunari mages useless as well.If the technology you're referring to is their powder then it's not a issue.That is why we have rogues and spys like leliana for infiltration and sabotage.

The fact that they could be better warriors isn't an advantage . The templars have an advantage over mages because their abilities directly affects mages. Their abilities didn't have any effects on non-mages. And you shouldn't consider the fact that Hawke slayed countless of qunari in the gameplay that highly. And the Wardens are the finest warriors. It's normal that they could survive against the qunari (and they fled anyway for their reasons).
You should remember that after the qunari decide to conquer Kirkwall, it didn't take long to conquer it. They defeated both templars and the city guards. Withouth Hawke, Kirkwall would've been doomed. Hawke stopped the invasion only because he defeated the Arishok, and the qunari had no reason to stay on Kirkwall. Otherwise, I'll doubt that the invasion could've been stopped without and Exalted March.
We have to agree that we disagree with each other. You think that Thedas could take on the qunari without mages. I think that even with mages stopping the qunari will be a difficult task. They are preparing the invasion since the peace (which they consider an armistice), while the Thedas places aren't (probably) preparing for block them, since they think that the treaty is a good enough to preven war.
And you should consider that the mages-templar war, as well as other civil wars, will seriously weaken the military strenght of Thedas.

Neither hawke nor the warden had any kind of specialized training.Both were cast into the struggle and had to over come many unknowns such as the brood mother and the warden and the lyrium golem and hawke through wit and skill picked up over their travels.The warden's being good warriors is a complement to their skill in killing darkspawn but as awakening and legacy proved not every warden is of the same skill and calibur and neither is every templar.Meredith and cullen were just as good as killing qunari as hawke.The qunari had been planning that ambush and building their numbers through converts for years, that's the only reason they were so effective in taking kirkwall.

[KingRoxas]

Why, you ask.
My answer:
The Templars protect the non-mages from the mages.

Modifié par Kingroxas, 19 juin 2012 - 09:32 .

[The Elder King]

Emzamination wrote...



Neither hawke nor the warden had any kind of specialized training.Both were cast into the struggle and had to over come many unknowns such as the brood mother and the warden and the lyrium golem and hawke through wit and skill picked up over their travels.The warden's being good warriors is a complement to their skill in killing darkspawn but as awakening and legacy proved not every warden is of the same skill and calibur and neither is every templar.Meredith and cullen were just as good as killing qunari as hawke.The qunari had been planning that ambush and building their numbers through converts for years, that's the only reason they were so effective in taking kirkwall.

The warden are chosen from the best warrior, mages, assassins, thiefs Thedas could offer.
I'm not saying Hawke is great. Agains, if the invasion couldn't have been stopped by a duel (or by killing the Arishok) the  qunari would've conquered Kirkwall. Their military strenght was superior.
The Arishok didn't wanted to invade Kirkwall. He was force by his code (from the Qun) to do this, because he couldn't live, and he couldn't stand to watch the depravity and the corruption of the town.
Again, it's no use to argue about the qunari. Our opinions are too different on the matter.

Modifié par hhh89, 19 juin 2012 - 09:33 .

[Ophir147]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Ser Karras raped Alain in Act 1 and you've got Alrik which suggests doing so to Tranquil, though they're (illegal) exceptions and not the norm.

Thanks for the example; I remember the conversation with Alain after the quest now and it was pretty damning. 

However, applying a single rape to an entire faction and cause is dangerous logical ground, and not a part of any sensible argument.

But I seem to have splintered the topic, so I'll go ahead and rest my case with that to eliminate any off-topic discussion I seem to have caused

[The Elder King]

Ophir147 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Ser Karras raped Alain in Act 1 and you've got Alrik which suggests doing so to Tranquil, though they're (illegal) exceptions and not the norm.

Thanks for the example; I remember the conversation with Alain after the quest now and it was pretty damning. 

However, applying a single rape to an entire faction and cause is dangerous logical ground, and not a part of any sensible argument.

I'm not applying the rape to the entire faction. I'm only saying that considering the Templar Order reputation in Kirkwall, there are more chances of a mage being raped in Kirkwall than in Ferelden. And anyway, the Kirkwall's Circle mages are treated so bad that I'd prefer my sister to became a Warden.
I'm neutral toward both templars and mages, in general. But if I have to judge both groups with only DA2 as a reference, I'm against both groups. They were the worst side of this two groups.

Modifié par hhh89, 19 juin 2012 - 09:37 .

[Emzamination]

hhh89 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

I'm not saying that he's not bad. I'm saying that he's not a mage. Though you believe that mage=evil (or so it seems from your post).
Plus, even if demons were involved (which as far as I remember was not confirmed) Kolgrim wasn't directly involved in the blood magic. His mages were/should be involved.

He can't conjure the power of the elements at will but that does not make him any less a mage for dabbling in the arcane.Avernus confirms it in warden's keep "blood magic came first from demon's and they could counter any of my lore but the taint, this is foreign to them and has power".What he did didn't require any mana, only dragon's blood and w/e else hitting the ashes.

A person that dabble in the arcane isn't a mage. A mage is someone who could travel in the Fade outside his dream, and that can use his will to manipulate the world. Kolgrim couldn't do any magic, couldn't travel in the Fade, so he wasn't a mage.
Avernus used the taint, yes, but he can manipulated it because he was both a grey warden and a mage.

Anyone can traverse the fade awake via ritual which has been proven time and time again, this is not restricted to mages.Just because he doesn't have mana does not make him any less a mage for preforming arcane rituals, there are plenty of rituals and spells that require no mana to use such as the litany of adralla .

[Dave of Canada]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

The Chantry seems to tolerate more than you give it credit for, at least in Kirkwall.

Mostly due to Elthina's incompetence, sadly. It's not like she accepts what's going on, rather she doesn't want to involve herself.

As for the commoners envying them... in Ferelden, you have a point. The templars are not overly abusive, and if you ask to leave they deflect you with humor rather than a lobotomy. The commoners, meanwhile, have to worry about where their next meal is coming from, and if they're elven, they have to worry about a lot more. (A lot of the horrors of medieval society you mention are more true for an elf in Ferelden than a human.)

True. Elves suffer far more than what I've suggested, they risk their homes being burned down by the very commoners which suffer alongside them. Hell, the very things which noblemen do to commoners they do to elves. The crippled elf in the Alienage who was thrown out because he injured himself at work for example.

That said, it would suck to be a commoner of any sort in Orlais. The fact that they don't seem to treat their mages crappily, from what I understand, combined with the nobles' privilege, means that being a mage in Orlais is probably the safest thing to be.

Sucks being a commoner pretty much everywhere.

Kirkwall has lowtown and darktown, which we know are horrid places to live.
The dwarves have their caste system which restricts them heavily and causes loads of issues with the nobility.
Ferelden--blight excluded--has Chasind (which could be a threat) and the poor living conditions outside the main quarter of Denerim (compare the streets and such with the Alienage, which is supposed to be really bad).

Ect.

 (It's certainly safer than being a noble, thanks to the Game.) 

Orlais is probably the most dangerous spot on Thedas for nobles, yeah.

As to mages being dangerous... well, mostly that seems to be the rebel mages. Irving is probably simultaneously the most powerful and least dangerous mage in Ferelden, with Wynne maybe second in both. Of course, neither of them seems to have wanted freedom until it became clear that the Mage-Templar war was happening around them, regardless of their own actions.

Though they're still dangerous, any slip and they're suddenly abominations--powerful ones, in fact (Whether Wynne can become a double-abomination is unlikely, however). The danger mages pose are their abilities, what they can do with their abilities and what they can do against their own will with those abilities.

And even then, Wynne only really supported the mage-templar war because of her son's life being put at risk.

They don't seem to be for getting rid of all the Templars, either, as there seem to be Templars fighting alongside them.

Possibly Templar with mage family members or mage sympathies, rather than the Lord-Seeker or Divine faction of Templar. (I forgot, did Irving support the Divine faction or the seperation?)

[Emzamination]

hhh89 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...



Neither hawke nor the warden had any kind of specialized training.Both were cast into the struggle and had to over come many unknowns such as the brood mother and the warden and the lyrium golem and hawke through wit and skill picked up over their travels.The warden's being good warriors is a complement to their skill in killing darkspawn but as awakening and legacy proved not every warden is of the same skill and calibur and neither is every templar.Meredith and cullen were just as good as killing qunari as hawke.The qunari had been planning that ambush and building their numbers through converts for years, that's the only reason they were so effective in taking kirkwall.

The warden are chosen from the best warrior, mages, assassins, thiefs Thedas could offer.
I'm not saying Hawke is great. Agains, if the invasion couldn't have been stopped by a duel (or by killing the Arishok) the  qunari would've conquered Kirkwall. Their military strenght was superior.
The Arishok didn't wanted to invade Kirkwall. He was force by his code (from the Qun) to do this, because he couldn't live, and he couldn't stand to watch the depravity and the corruption of the town.
Again, it's no use to argue about the qunari. Our opinions are too different on the matter.

Very well we'll agree to disagree

[Dave of Canada]

hhh89 wrote...

True, it's illegal and it's not the norm, though we don't know how many Templars might have done this in Kirkwall. I'm not saying that every Templars do this. They're probably in the minority, but the numbers are (probably) increased in Kirkwall.

That requires a thorough investigation of Templar ranks by Chantry official authorised by the Grand Cleric (which Elthina the Indecisive would not do, probably forcing her successor into the role), rather than a full blown mage rebellion.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 19 juin 2012 - 09:41 .

[The Elder King]

Emzamination wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

I'm not saying that he's not bad. I'm saying that he's not a mage. Though you believe that mage=evil (or so it seems from your post).
Plus, even if demons were involved (which as far as I remember was not confirmed) Kolgrim wasn't directly involved in the blood magic. His mages were/should be involved.

He can't conjure the power of the elements at will but that does not make him any less a mage for dabbling in the arcane.Avernus confirms it in warden's keep "blood magic came first from demon's and they could counter any of my lore but the taint, this is foreign to them and has power".What he did didn't require any mana, only dragon's blood and w/e else hitting the ashes.

A person that dabble in the arcane isn't a mage. A mage is someone who could travel in the Fade outside his dream, and that can use his will to manipulate the world. Kolgrim couldn't do any magic, couldn't travel in the Fade, so he wasn't a mage.
Avernus used the taint, yes, but he can manipulated it because he was both a grey warden and a mage.

Anyone can traverse the fade awake via ritual which has been proven time and time again, this is not restricted to mages.Just because he doesn't have mana does not make him any less a mage for preforming arcane rituals, there are plenty of rituals and spells that require no mana to use such as the litany of adralla .

Non-mage could only access the Fade by a ritual, and not every time (only a mage could've gone in the Fade to save Connor). Regardless, that doesn't make a person a mage. Otherwise Hawke is a mage, since he went in the Fade with an arcan ritual.
It's useless to continue talking about that. If you think that Kolgrim is a mage, go on.

[The Elder King]

Dave of Canada wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

True, it's illegal and it's not the norm, though we don't know how many Templars might have done this in Kirkwall. I'm not saying that every Templars do this. They're probably in the minority, but the numbers are (probably) increased in Kirkwall.

That requires a thorough investigation of Templar ranks by Chantry official authorised by the Grand Cleric (which Elthina the Indecisive would not do, probably forcing her successor into the role), rather than a full blown mage rebellion.

I agree, those type of issues would've required an investigation
The rebellion was forced on the mages by Meredith, though. As I said in one of my post, The Circle of Magi wasn't responsible of Elthina's death and the destruction of the Chantry. Ander was an apostate, and he never was a member of the Kirkwall Circle. This is the only reason I sided with the mages. They weren't responsible for what happened, and Orsino even proposed a complete investigation of the Circle. I think that considering the situation in Kirkwall, the conflict was inevitable after Anders's terroristic actions.
As I said, Kirkwall represented the bad side of both mages and templars. So I'll remain neutral untile I see how the factions will act in DA3.

[Emzamination]

hhh89 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

I'm not saying that he's not bad. I'm saying that he's not a mage. Though you believe that mage=evil (or so it seems from your post).
Plus, even if demons were involved (which as far as I remember was not confirmed) Kolgrim wasn't directly involved in the blood magic. His mages were/should be involved.

He can't conjure the power of the elements at will but that does not make him any less a mage for dabbling in the arcane.Avernus confirms it in warden's keep "blood magic came first from demon's and they could counter any of my lore but the taint, this is foreign to them and has power".What he did didn't require any mana, only dragon's blood and w/e else hitting the ashes.

A person that dabble in the arcane isn't a mage. A mage is someone who could travel in the Fade outside his dream, and that can use his will to manipulate the world. Kolgrim couldn't do any magic, couldn't travel in the Fade, so he wasn't a mage.
Avernus used the taint, yes, but he can manipulated it because he was both a grey warden and a mage.

Anyone can traverse the fade awake via ritual which has been proven time and time again, this is not restricted to mages.Just because he doesn't have mana does not make him any less a mage for preforming arcane rituals, there are plenty of rituals and spells that require no mana to use such as the litany of adralla .

Non-mage could only access the Fade by a ritual, and not every time (only a mage could've gone in the Fade to save Connor). Regardless, that doesn't make a person a mage. Otherwise Hawke is a mage, since he went in the Fade with an arcan ritual.
It's useless to continue talking about that. If you think that Kolgrim is a mage, go on.

I did not say one was a mage simply because they could traverse the fade, I said it was not restricted to mages or maybe I should have said those with mana.Merethari preformed the fade ritual, hawke was just a component.A mage is a title for one who studies the arcane and by restricting that title to only those who can use mana you alter the title of 'mage' from profession to race or sub-race and with that I rest my case

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

[quote]Emzamination wrote...

[quote]Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

No argument from me as to Morrigan herself, however, the fact remains that there probably are apostates who don't know blood magic. The fact that she isn't one of those doesn't have anything to do with that. [/quote]

Every mage can tap into blood magic, all it takes is one cut as anders points out in Da2 "So how did you get become a blood mage, did you just cut yourself and feel the power in your blood?".The fact that they don't do doesn't mean they won't resort to it as the circle mages of kirkwall prove.
[/quote]


There are some cases where a mage who otherwise follows the law will try blood magic. And why not? There are legitimate uses for Blood Magic. Like when somebody is trying to kill you and you're out of mana.

[quote]
[quote]
Apparently, Jowan has no idea how to summon a demon, and no texts which explain it. I think the idea is that Connor met it in the Fade. Also, the reason for the deal was because Connor's father was weakening, and for all Connor knew, was dying. It wasn't curiosity, it was panic. Some of the mages are as bad as you say, in fact a lot of the ones we meet in-game are. Connor isn't. [/quote]

I believe either you find connor's journal upstairs or he tells you when confronted that while jowan was sleeping he snuck into his room and stole one of his magic books out his bag.

[/quote]

Well, okay then.

[quote]
[quote]
A lot of these innocents were mages. You don't seem to mention them on your list.[/quote]

I was talking about the mages 

[/quote]

And yet you don't seem to be averse to offing them, as long as it's done through proper legal channels.


[quote]
[quote]
Some of them would have cut her up without even a shred of moral debate. Why would she tell them? Or risk them finding out?[/quote]


They would have done what they must, we can not start bending the rules of the order because an abomination appears harmless.
[/quote]

And Wynne has what incentive to go along with this?

[quote]
[quote]
To the extent that Anders' original decision was justified, it was because Justice was relatively tame before he took up residence in Anders' head. Still a foolish risk to take, and one many innocent people paid for. [/quote]


Letting a foreign entity merge with you is never justified.I feel bad the poor spirit was trapped outside the fade but that's just too bad, let it 'die' and move on.

[/quote]

You seem to have missed that I mostly agree with you there. I will note that Anders shouldn't neccesarily have expected exactly what happened, but I'm surprised he didn't expect something.

[quote]
[quote]
She knew she was risking having the demon possess her. She did not realize Marethari would take that bullet for her. As for the mirror resulting in what happened to her friends, she seems to have solved the problem that lead to that. I don't see how what happened to Tamlen and the potential Warden really has any bearing on Merril's decision after she cleans the mirror.[/quote]


She's even worse because she knew the risk and yet did it anyway, sodding mages.How many more merrills must thedas endure before humanity is enslaved by demons from a summoning gone awry??

[/quote]

Merril moves away from the clan specifically so that nobody else in said clan will get caught up in it, and at the height of her risk of getting posessed, asks Hawke to be there to put her down if needed. If they were all that cautious, it would take an infinite+1 number of Merrils to do what you are afraid of.

[quote]
[quote]
She and her associates (I don't think "consorts" means what you think it means) were working for an absolute nut who wanted to rule the world. I'm not arguing with your ultimate moral assessment, but seriously, I've never played the game. I shouldn't know the character's motivations better than you.
[/quote]
Take it up with her, her words not mine.

[/quote]

Wait, actual words ingame?

Point withdrawn.

[quote]
[quote]
I have no idea who you're talking about, since I've never actually played DA2. That said, do we actually see him personally using forbidden magic? Of any kind? [/quote]


His name is Allan and yes although he uses the blood magic to release hawkes loved one, it still shows the boy was versed in the dark arts!

[/quote]

Oh, him? I thought he was already a man when he was first encountered. My mistake. At any rate, he does seem hesitant to use it, (moral reasons, because Hawke's breating down his neck, or just because it sodding hurts) and only does it to break a coma spell. Would it have been more moral to let the loved one die? (Youtube video, again, haven't actually played it.)

[quote]
[quote]
Dying with dignity? Overrated. It's still dying. [/quote]

I dunno... Howe was a snake and a coward but atleast he died like a champ cursing the warden's name to the fade.I find it preferable to die like howe rather than screaming my head off. [/quote]

If you are indisputably going to die, yes. Unless you can get the bastard who killed you, or protect someone by checking out a little earlier. Howe could not do either.

Orsino, meanwhile could have gotten a whole lot of Templars (he seems to have thought) and protected some mages (he chose a moronic way of going about it.)

No, the real idiocy of his actions is that he wasn't doomed. From what I understand, it is possible to win the battle that causes him to snap with no issue.

[quote]
[quote]
Mages Collective From Dragon Age: Origins- Not a single bit like you describe all mages as being. They enforce the Chantries laws among themselves, either for moral reasons or because that sort of magic is just too much trouble. Some of the missions for them even include taking down blood mages that the Collective has noticed. [/quote]


The mages collective was completely questionable. One Annonymous mage ask you to collect him to ancient places of power with one of those places being right inside the circle tower.Another mystery mage ask you to collect ancient scrolls and give it to him. Another mage outright abandoned his apostate apprentices. Another mage's apprentice became an abomination. Another mage ask you to stop a group of travelers from falsely reporting him as a blood mage but if they hadn't seen any blood or blood magic, what reason would they have to report him? The collective ask you to put blood on the door of the familys of blood mages, couldn't find a better warning sign than that like I don't know...maybe a notice under the door? They were bribing templars!

[/quote]

The guy with the possessed apprentice tried to hunt him down, didn't he? As for the people reporting a "blood mage" they might have just assumed. He was an apostate, wasn't he?
As for bribing templars... comes with the territory. They're apostates, remember?

[quote]
[quote]
Irving- The Knight-Commander comes right out and says that if Irving says the problem is solved, it's solved. The Templars have more respect for some mages than you do.[/quote]

Irving is a chantry templar loyal to the divine.He's weak and so is the divine, I'm with the inquisition, a different sect of templars who have no trouble doing what needs to be done to ensure peace in thedas.
[/quote]
His judgment of which methods were sufficient was vindicated by subsequent events. Weak? Try sane. Or right.

[quote]
[quote]
Niall- Actually tried to help save the innocents Uldred was killing/controlling. If it weren't for him, it's debatable whether anyone the Warden was with would have known to grab the Litany, and the Warden would have had a hell of a time figuring out the way that section of the Fade worked. [/quote]

His life was powering those nightmares, if it weren't for him and his mommy issues, sloth would've had no way to send the warden to that fade realm.Peasants should leave the heroics to the experts.
[/quote]

Someone had to do something, and even if the Warden was trapped due to Niall (unless he/she's a dwarf, that is a debatable assertion) the fact remains he/she'd have had a much harder time if he/she hadn't known to take the Litany. (It is unclear that he/she would have were it not for Niall.)

At any rate, this still doesn't support your original point, that the Tranquil Solution is a good idea.

Edit: Sorry the thing was so poorly formatted at first: my internet crapped out and I had to move the partially written post. My connection can be annoying at times, but this is just beyond accepting...

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 19 juin 2012 - 10:52 .

[Ryzaki]

Emzamination wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

@Emzamination: why don't you just make Bethany a warden? She'll freely side with Hawke against the mages then.

She is still family and I would not see her cursed with an hour glass on her life or denied the ability to carry on the hawke bloodline as the warden was.

You're gonna kill her anyway. Not to mention Wardens aren't completely infertile. It's more difficult to give birth not impossible.

As for the hourglass if DAO is any indication it's not that bad an exchange. Of course you need to committ suicide by darkspawn before becoming a ghoul but still...not that bad. You at least don't have to worry about being harassed by templars and nobles. Well mostly. You can always just leave the town/city if they get too bad.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 19 juin 2012 - 11:03 .

[Ivucci]

I finished reading Asunder just a few days ago and from what I saw/read, the Circles are even worse than I thought. The initiates thrown in pitch black cells without explanation, scared, treated like criminals from the very first moment, forgotten even (what the hell?)... And this wasn't even Kirkwall, whose example as a place of horrors is often dismissed as invalid or exceptional due to thin veil and bad writing.

I haven't done any DA2 pro-templar playthroughs so far, and while I was planning to - and still want to, mostly because I want to have a templar save for DA3 in case it matters, Asunder only added more arguments for my pro-mage playthroughs.

It's a shame, and I'm not sure if it was intentional, or if I'm really that biased, but I have very little, if any at all, respect towards the templar order now. A few honorable individuals like Evangeline can't save it for me. Cullen I'm still undecided about.

Dave of Canada wrote...

The problem being that mages are too ignorant of the outside world to see it like this, only seeing the open world as something taken from them and ignoring the rest of it. Thus, their cries for freedom are born out of ignorance. When they're cold and starving, perhaps they'll understand their lifestyle was taken for granted.

Now the question is why are they ignorant. Surely the mage gene doesn't automatically come with natural ignorance and sniffiness. They are denied life experience, yet you want them to see the world and their situation in it from the point of view of someone who has actually gained some life wisdom.

The realization they live a life far more comfortable (in some aspects) than most won't come out of nowhere, it can't be learnt from books or from a mentor. They could have an "Everyday predicaments of a Thedas commoner" class every Monday morning but for any such kowledge to sink in, to the point where it can shape their attitudes, it must be lived and experienced.

You want them to accept responsibility for what they are, but you take away the necessary prerequisite for that - freedom of choice, using the "I'm doing it to protect you from yourselves" mantra like a shield. If they protest, they're labelled ungrateful whiners. That looks like an abusive parents' method at its best.

[DPSSOC]

DKJaigen wrote...
What your describing is the breeding ground for monsters. And these monsters have a lot of power. You destroy any form of empathy the mages can have for the normal humans.

How so?  You can breed empathy in isolation.  I'm advocating the segregation of the existing system which, if we look at Fereldan, breeds no more monsters than anywhere else.  I choose not to look at Kirkwall because everyone there's a monster (or seems like).

DKJaigen wrote...
And stop using the Jedi. Emotions have far greater effect in the SW universe then in the dragon age universe

 
Care to point out the sentient beings that invade dreams and feed off of and foster negative emotions and seek to gain entrance into the world in Star Wars?  Emotions in Star Wars merely guide people's actions, drivig us towards the dark or light side (which are themselves corrupting/benevolent forces driving us further), same as emotions in Dragon Age.

DKJaigen wrote...
and might i also remind you that every single major war is started because some jedi turned darkside because of the jedi system.

Not arguing that the Jedi System is perfect but those events are hiccups in a system that works otherwise.

Emzamination wrote...
Lots of normal men lose their wives like maric,cyrion,loghain but they did not turn to murder and perverted maker forsaken magics, he is just another mage succumb to the lure of demons.

Lots of normal men don't have the power to do anything about it. Also keep in mind that for Maric ad Loghain at least their wife was their second choice (Katriel and Rowan being their firsts respectively). Can't say I know who the third one is. However you're kind of making my point.

Normal people; you, me, everybody, accept and deal with loss because there's nothing else we can do. I have to grieve for and get over the loss of loved ones and friends because there's nothing I can do that'll bring them back. Similarly I have to watch those same people get sick, weaken, and potentially die because again there's nothing I can do. Mages don't have that limitation. You ever think to yourself in one of those situations what you'd do, what you'd be willing to give up in order to save them? For Mages that isn't a hypothetical consideration, it's an honest assessment of their options.

Mages can essentially be Anakin Skywalker and refuse to accept and deal with reality because they believe they have the power to alter it, and they're not wrong.

[Dave of Canada]

Nizaris1 wrote...

So, if siding with the Templar, Hawke make enemy of his/her family

Malcolm might be rolling in his grave but you're hardly making an enemy of your family, especially when almost none of it remains.

[Iakus]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Nizaris1 wrote...

So, if siding with the Templar, Hawke make enemy of his/her family

Malcolm might be rolling in his grave but you're hardly making an enemy of your family, especially when almost none of it remains.

Besides, wasn't Carver named after a Templar friend of Malcolm's?

[TEWR]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Nizaris1 wrote...

So, if siding with the Templar, Hawke make enemy of his/her family

Malcolm might be rolling in his grave but you're hardly making an enemy of your family, especially when almost none of it remains.

I can see Malcolm and Leandra rolling around. And maybe the grandparents are rolling around. And you could be making enemies of Bethany -- depending on choices -- as well as cousin Revka and her family.

Warden Bethany won't be your enemy, but Circle Mage Bethany might be if you're just that evil. And if you're not, she probably won't like you -- maybe even ever speak to you again.

iakus wrote...

Besides, wasn't Carver named after a Templar friend of Malcolm's?

A pro-mage friend of Malcom's -- in the White Chantry sense, at least.

I doubt Ser Maarevar Carver would support the genocide of hundreds of Mages for an act they had nothing to do with.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 20 juin 2012 - 05:52 .