673 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

No, but the sheer number of maleficar and abominations that sprout from Kirkwall like mushrooms after a rain would be troubling

What' best in me vs what is most base and all that

[TEWR]

But that's due to it being a Hellmouth, or so we're told.

A true Templar would argue that it's not completely the Mages' fault, and that if they truly want to fix the situation the solution to it isn't "MOAR BLOODSHED".

It's taking a legion of Mages and two or three legions of Templars into the deepest, darkest pits of Kirkwall where the Veil is at its thinnest and repairing it, either by just a fraction or completely.

[Dave of Canada]

Circle Bethany wouldn't hate you, she'd be made tranquil.

[TEWR]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Circle Bethany wouldn't hate you, she'd be made tranquil.

Would she? I don't think there's any indication that she'd be made Tranquil after the revelation that Meredith ordered that Annulment for the lulz and due to her insanity.

And I imagine a Pro-Templar Hawke that spared her -- but is against her being made Tranquil -- would fight against that.

[Iakus]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

But that's due to it being a Hellmouth, or so we're told.

A true Templar would argue that it's not completely the Mages' fault, and that if they truly want to fix the situation the solution to it isn't "MOAR BLOODSHED".

It's taking a legion of Mages and two or three legions of Templars into the deepest, darkest pits of Kirkwall where the Veil is at its thinnest and repairing it, either by just a fraction or completely.

None of the Templars know this though.  Heck none of the characters know this at all.

We as players have some evidence of any number of possible connections

The thinness of the Veil in Kirkwall
The Big Bad Blood Ritual back when Tevinter ran Kirkwall
The sheer number of powerful bound demons in and around the city
The Primeval Thaig
The proximity of Corypheus' prison

Any, all, or none of these could be related to the madness that plagues Kirkwall.  And even if there is a connection, it's entirely possible that it's affecting the Templars as well, turning them to baser emotions and instincts just as mages turned to blood magic and demons.

In fact, the only direct evidence we have of artificial manipulation of behavior:  The red lyrium idol from the thaig, support that, as it dialed Meredith's paranoia up to eleven and even drove a Bartram mad.  Anders mentions that if he wasn't a dwarf he's say he was possessed.

Inspiration:  Lyrium in Kirkwall tainted somehow?  Templars and mages both consume lyrium.  Both groups have tendancy to go mad, abuse power, become violently dangerous.  Others in Kirkwall not affected so much, else city would have burned to the ground many times over.  Red lyrium idol perhaps purest version of insanity-lyrium?  Hmm....

[TEWR]

iakus wrote...

None of the Templars know this though. Heck none of the characters know this at all.

Elthina figures it out if you do Repentance.

I'd also add that the lyrium idol -- when broken -- also thins the Veil, which Hawke and friends can deduce. So Meredith's sword probably didn't help things either in that regard, since her sword was made from the broken idol.

Whether red lyrium itself does this, I dunno.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 20 juin 2012 - 06:58 .

[Lazy Jer]

Emzamination wrote...
Merill is a mage and meredith has no problem with her accompanying hawke because she is a friend of the champion.Bethany chose her 'people' over her kin and thus chose her fate.

First of all, Merrill isn't a circle mage, she's Daleish.  Meredith makes it abundantly clear if you side with the Templars that she intends every mage, every mage from the Circle to die.  Even those that surrender.  There's no reason to believe that she's going to hold Bethany in a higher regard if she agrees that everyone in the circle she's met over the past six or seven years needs to die.  Third, Meredith had it in for Hawke whether he's a mage or not simply because he rose to power too quickly.  When she bumps him off what do you think is going to happen to his mage buddies?  Party at Meredith's?  Free tickets to the wallop match?

[DKJaigen]

DPSSOC wrote...


How so?  You can breed empathy in isolation.  I'm advocating the segregation of the existing system which, if we look at Fereldan, breeds no more monsters than anywhere else.  I choose not to look at Kirkwall because everyone there's a monster (or seems like)..

Even Wynne is perfectly mercenary when it comes to the common people. She even allowed the orlaisian cival war to escalate knowing full well the empress is forced to call on the circle. So Wynne could have prevented the death of a lot people and she didnt do it simply to make the circle more powerful. Mages have onlly empathy for themselves right now. The rest of the common people can burn for all they care. Now force the mages in situation where they have to fight for their lives and the common people still supporting the templars and its not going to be pretty.

DPSSOC wrote...
Care to point out the sentient beings that invade dreams and feed off of and foster negative emotions and seek to gain entrance into the world in Star Wars?  Emotions in Star Wars merely guide people's actions, drivig us towards the dark or light side (which are themselves corrupting/benevolent forces driving us further), same as emotions in Dragon Age.

Emotions can completely alter the personality of a person in SW while in da they do not.

DPSSOC wrote...
Not arguing that the Jedi System is perfect but those events are hiccups in a system that works otherwise.

Yeah and everytime their is a hiccup it results in the death of billions and the destruction of thousands of planets. But the system right? Darth Revan told the jedi they needed to change or the same **** would happen all over again his words proved when darth vader nearly destroyed the jedi. The templars and jedi order have the same problem: unwilling to change.

DPSSOC wrote...
Lots of normal men don't have the power to do anything about it. Also keep in mind that for Maric ad Loghain at least their wife was their second choice (Katriel and Rowan being their firsts respectively). Can't say I know who the third one is. However you're kind of making my point.

Normal people; you, me, everybody, accept and deal with loss because there's nothing else we can do. I have to grieve for and get over the loss of loved ones and friends because there's nothing I can do that'll bring them back. Similarly I have to watch those same people get sick, weaken, and potentially die because again there's nothing I can do. Mages don't have that limitation. You ever think to yourself in one of those situations what you'd do, what you'd be willing to give up in order to save them? For Mages that isn't a hypothetical consideration, it's an honest assessment of their options.

Mages can essentially be Anakin Skywalker and refuse to accept and deal with reality because they believe they have the power to alter it, and they're not wrong.

This is a very big IF statement. But this is not necessarily true.

Modifié par DKJaigen, 20 juin 2012 - 02:44 .

[Zombie_Alexis]

I don't normally post, but I find this topic very interesting.

I try to side with the Templars every so often, but the game makes that very difficult because it's hard to see siding with them as nothing more than outright genocide. It's also hard to not feel for a group of people who have to be imprisoned simpy because of a circumstance of birth. The problem is, there actually is a reason for the existence of Templars. Hawke and his family are living in a city where every building, every city plan, was built by Tevinter slavers, a society based on Mage rule. The irony of the Gallows now being used as a Circle Tower is subtle, but it's there. If you take Fenris there on your first visit, he'll talk about it. And he's right. There actually is a risk of starting another Tevinter-like society by just getting rid of the Circles. I just wish they had made Fenris more sympathetic so that you could see his side a little more.  (Being an ex-slave with puppy eyes isn't going to do it. He's too, albeit understandably, bitter.) He should have been just as sympathetic a character as Bethany for balance, because it's seriously hard to side against your sister.

I do think that there is a middle ground that I'm hoping the next game will explore. I do think Templars are needed to make sure Mages that become maleficar don't do harm to the general population. They should be more like the maleficar SWAT team than the oppressive guards they are now. I'd like to see a way to integrate Mages into society so that there is mutual respect. Locking them in a tower does nothing but exacerbate the fears of common people, and I think that if you lock a bunch of people together and tell them that they are too dangerous to be let out because of their abilities, they'll eventually start to question who should be in power. I'd like to see something more akin to how the Dalish treat their Mages. Magic is valued, but they also know they have to be vigilent against abuse and are ready to put down a Mage gone rogue.

The problem isn't the Templars. The problem is the Circle system and I'm hoping one of the choices we get in the next is a way to reform both the Templar organization as well as how Mages are treated

Apologies for the WOT.

[EricHVela]

Zombie_Alexis wrote...

I don't normally post, but I find this topic very interesting.

I try to side with the Templars every so often, but the game makes that very difficult because it's hard to see siding with them as nothing more than outright genocide. It's also hard to not feel for a group of people who have to be imprisoned simpy because of a circumstance of birth. The problem is, there actually is a reason for the existence of Templars. Hawke and his family are living in a city where every building, every city plan, was built by Tevinter slavers, a society based on Mage rule. The irony of the Gallows now being used as a Circle Tower is subtle, but it's there. If you take Fenris there on your first visit, he'll talk about it. And he's right. There actually is a risk of starting another Tevinter-like society by just getting rid of the Circles. I just wish they had made Fenris more sympathetic so that you could see his side a little more.  (Being an ex-slave with puppy eyes isn't going to do it. He's too, albeit understandably, bitter.) He should have been just as sympathetic a character as Bethany for balance, because it's seriously hard to side against your sister.

I do think that there is a middle ground that I'm hoping the next game will explore. I do think Templars are needed to make sure Mages that become maleficar don't do harm to the general population. They should be more like the maleficar SWAT team than the oppressive guards they are now. I'd like to see a way to integrate Mages into society so that there is mutual respect. Locking them in a tower does nothing but exacerbate the fears of common people, and I think that if you lock a bunch of people together and tell them that they are too dangerous to be let out because of their abilities, they'll eventually start to question who should be in power. I'd like to see something more akin to how the Dalish treat their Mages. Magic is valued, but they also know they have to be vigilent against abuse and are ready to put down a Mage gone rogue.

The problem isn't the Templars. The problem is the Circle system and I'm hoping one of the choices we get in the next is a way to reform both the Templar organization as well as how Mages are treated

Apologies for the WOT.

That's not a WOT. Good post!

I can't say that the "Circle system" is the problem. I do agree that the way they use the Circle in Dragon Age: Origins and Dragon Age: Kirkwall isn't exactly helpful. You are 100% correct that the segregation compounds the fear of the unknown. People usually only get to see the renegades and not the ones that are just trying to live as normally as they can. It focuses on the differences instead of what makes everyone the same.

However, I have to wonder about the different practices that different Circles around Thedas follow. The Circle could be little more than a collegiate system of professors and students without the isolation in some parts. The Circle in Ferelden even accepted the study from a Dwarf. Perhaps, a Circle elsewhere is a community-wide thing for magic-users and "mundanes" alike. ("Mundanes" might not be able to do magic, but there are plenty of things they can learn from it. EDIT: Some mages could learn a lot from "mundanes" as well.)

I think it really comes down to the essential problem: people. A system is only as "right" or "wrong" as the people who interpret and enforce it.

If certain people were in charge of the Templars and Circle, it might end up being the best solution for everyone with the least collaring of anyone.

Modifié par ReggarBlane, 20 juin 2012 - 01:15 .

[Lazy Jer]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Circle Bethany wouldn't hate you, she'd be made tranquil.

That's like saying "Well air conditioner won't break down, there is none."

[karushna5]

My character, a mage, sided with the Templars and personally so do I. Even good ol' Gregoir would have done an annulment if his Templars were turning into abominations. At every turn you saw blood mages giving their souls to demons. The city is crawling with them.

Your mother is killed by a blood mage who was helped by Orsino.

Tranquility is wrong but we forget many choose to become tranquil if you read the codexes in origins. Forcing it is wrong and death should welcome a mage out of control who chooses not to be tranquil.

And yes in circles where it is less extreme on BOTH sides, mages leave and start families. Wynne and Wilhelm both lived outside the circle.

Personally when people who are not blood mages like Anders blow up a chantry because he doesn't want peace. Orphans are kept there. Worshipers at all hours. That warranted extreme action and Anders' death should have been it.

Meredith was out of control and had to be stopped but I am always puzzled by those who see the mages are at no fault. They built off each other like any conflict.

[Dave of Canada]

 

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Would she? I don't think there's any indication that she'd be made Tranquil after the revelation that Meredith ordered that Annulment for the lulz and due to her insanity.

And I imagine a Pro-Templar Hawke that spared her -- but is against her being made Tranquil -- would fight against that.

Considering all the blood mages and abominations which rampaged across Kirkwall, they'd likely tranquil all the surviving mages--including Bethany--simply as a safety precausion despite Meredith's insanity. Perhaps Cullen would be against it though ultimately there's no-one left to really do that call, as the Chantry lies shattered until a replacement is sent and there's no Knight-Commander until then.

Mayhap they'd listened to Hawke--they did help them secure the position as viscount after all--though that'd still be hard to justify when the new Grand Cleric appears and points out they didn't finish their job yet. All and all, I have Meredith slay Bethany on the spot because she's said that she'd rather die than live tranquil.

Which would sting really hard if you'd see a tranquil Bethany serving the Inquisition / Divine / Mages in DA3.

Lazy Jer wrote...

That's like saying "Well air conditioner won't break down, there is none."

Bethany as a person remains, she just doesn't have emotions. Emotions don't make a person, as Tranquil are fully capable of living their lives. Maybe she'd come to the conclusion using logic that her fate is Hawke's doing but she'd feel no resentment over it.

[Lazy Jer]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Lazy Jer wrote...

That's like saying "Well air conditioner won't break down, there is none."

Bethany as a person remains, she just doesn't have emotions. Emotions don't make a person, as Tranquil are fully capable of living their lives. Maybe she'd come to the conclusion using logic that her fate is Hawke's doing but she'd feel no resentment over it.

Technically true, but it's not exactly a happy thought.  Especially given that she regards being made tranquil as a fate worse then death in-game.

[Karlone123]

I support the Templars, just not their questionable methods. Templars are needed to take arms against dangerous mages because I don't believe city guards can do the job unless a form of defence against magic is introduced. Meredith was too unstable to be the Knight-commander because of what she saw as a child and the Lyrium sword and Cullen would have been too harsh to have been one too because of what he saw in Ferelden's Circle.

The Templars need to make life in the Circle more tolerable for Mages and give them a certain amount of freedom and restore trust and friendship in them like they used to. Another thing is Templars need to police themselves better, make regulations to protect Mages from unfair treatment and limit how much authority one Templar has.

Mages do become corrupt if they have too much power like a Lord who has too much wealth as there are only so few who can handle the responsibility of power. The problem is naive Mages who believe they can solve a problem going on using dangerous methods of Magic such as in the case of Merrill and not end up doing any harm.

So when the decision comes in DA3 to help the Mages or theTemplars, it's going to be the Templars for me as it's for the world's safety.

[TEWR]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Considering all the blood mages and abominations which rampaged across Kirkwall, they'd likely tranquil all the surviving mages--including Bethany--simply as a safety precausion despite Meredith's insanity. Perhaps Cullen would be against it though ultimately there's no-one left to really do that call, as the Chantry lies shattered until a replacement is sent and there's no Knight-Commander until then.

Cullen becomes the Knight-Commander the moment he relieves Meredith of her authority. Being the Knight-Captain anyway.

At least, until inquiries are made into the situation. But he is, at that time, acting Knight-Commander.

Dave of Canada wrote...

though that'd still be hard to justify when the new Grand Cleric appears and points out they didn't finish their job yet

On the other hand, we were told by Gaider that had Meredith lived she would've faced questioning on whether the RoA was truly necessary by the Divine herself.

[LobselVith8]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

But that's due to it being a Hellmouth, or so we're told.

That made all but two mage antagonists insane, stupid, and nonsensical. Like Decimus thinking Merrill is a templar, Grace wanting revenge because the plot was lazily written, or anyone following Tahrone - a mage who looks like a drug addict and sounds completely deranged. Are a plethora of caricatures supposed to make me wary of mages? Should I be wary that free mages might become one-dimensional and ridiculous?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Should I be wary that free mages might become one-dimensional and ridiculous?

Why not? They clearly do.

[LolaLei]

I personally find it very hard to side with the Templars in DA2, simply because there are very few sympathetic Templar characters in comparison to the Mages. Sure, a lot of the crazy blood Mages done some really dodgy stuff, but for the most part it was portrayed as retaliation... Hell, I even felt kinda sorry for the dodgy necromancer bloke who zombified Hawke's mother, because he'd been driven mad by the untimely death of his wife so he had a motive, even if it was bat sh!t insane!

I think maybe if the game had gone into more detail about the hardships the Templars face, like first hand lyrium addiction/withdrawal, a Mage/Templar love affair being uncovered causing one or both to be severely punished by Meredith as she began to descend into madness, or a new Templar recruit having to strike down his first Mage then watching him freak out after etc. Sure, we saw one or two "good" Templars like Thrask and Cullen (towards the end) but without getting a deeper understanding of the Templars "good side" it makes it hard for me to actively side with them.

Perhaps DA3 will encourage us to feel a larger degree of sympathy for them by showing us the gritty side to the Templar Order that the "good" Templars have to endure.

Modifié par LolaLei, 21 juin 2012 - 01:42 .

[Zombie_Alexis]

ReggarBlane wrote...

Zombie_Alexis wrote...

I don't normally post, but I find this topic very interesting.

I try to side with the Templars every so often, but the game makes that very difficult because it's hard to see siding with them as nothing more than outright genocide. It's also hard to not feel for a group of people who have to be imprisoned simpy because of a circumstance of birth. The problem is, there actually is a reason for the existence of Templars. Hawke and his family are living in a city where every building, every city plan, was built by Tevinter slavers, a society based on Mage rule. The irony of the Gallows now being used as a Circle Tower is subtle, but it's there. If you take Fenris there on your first visit, he'll talk about it. And he's right. There actually is a risk of starting another Tevinter-like society by just getting rid of the Circles. I just wish they had made Fenris more sympathetic so that you could see his side a little more.  (Being an ex-slave with puppy eyes isn't going to do it. He's too, albeit understandably, bitter.) He should have been just as sympathetic a character as Bethany for balance, because it's seriously hard to side against your sister.

I do think that there is a middle ground that I'm hoping the next game will explore. I do think Templars are needed to make sure Mages that become maleficar don't do harm to the general population. They should be more like the maleficar SWAT team than the oppressive guards they are now. I'd like to see a way to integrate Mages into society so that there is mutual respect. Locking them in a tower does nothing but exacerbate the fears of common people, and I think that if you lock a bunch of people together and tell them that they are too dangerous to be let out because of their abilities, they'll eventually start to question who should be in power. I'd like to see something more akin to how the Dalish treat their Mages. Magic is valued, but they also know they have to be vigilent against abuse and are ready to put down a Mage gone rogue.

The problem isn't the Templars. The problem is the Circle system and I'm hoping one of the choices we get in the next is a way to reform both the Templar organization as well as how Mages are treated

Apologies for the WOT.

That's not a WOT. Good post!

I can't say that the "Circle system" is the problem. I do agree that the way they use the Circle in Dragon Age: Origins and Dragon Age: Kirkwall isn't exactly helpful. You are 100% correct that the segregation compounds the fear of the unknown. People usually only get to see the renegades and not the ones that are just trying to live as normally as they can. It focuses on the differences instead of what makes everyone the same.

However, I have to wonder about the different practices that different Circles around Thedas follow. The Circle could be little more than a collegiate system of professors and students without the isolation in some parts. The Circle in Ferelden even accepted the study from a Dwarf. Perhaps, a Circle elsewhere is a community-wide thing for magic-users and "mundanes" alike. ("Mundanes" might not be able to do magic, but there are plenty of things they can learn from it. EDIT: Some mages could learn a lot from "mundanes" as well.)

I think it really comes down to the essential problem: people. A system is only as "right" or "wrong" as the people who interpret and enforce it.

If certain people were in charge of the Templars and Circle, it might end up being the best solution for everyone with the least collaring of anyone.

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. You have a good point about how the different Circles are run. I believe Anders says something about how you can only get a good Mage education at the Circle, so they do help Mages to control and understand their powers. I think you have something there about a community Circle as well, where Mages can learn about their powers, while "mundanes" who are merely interested in the theories can use their resources as well. It could grow to be seen as more of a social benefit where each side learns more about each other. In Witch Hunt, I loved perusing through the books during the Circle tower quest and there's a lot more there than just books on magic, so those resources could potentially benefit everyone.

And you've persuaded me: the real problem is people and their world view. So the question is, will our next protaganist have the ability to make social change and reform and not simply team up with the side they want to win? That would make it a truly interesting game, I think. 

[Iakus]

LolaLei wrote...

I personally find it very hard to side with the Templars in DA2, simply because there are very few sympathetic Templar characters in comparison to the Mages. Sure, a lot of the crazy blood Mages done some really dodgy stuff, but for the most part it was portrayed as retaliation... Hell, I even felt kinda sorry for the dodgy necromancer bloke who zombified Hawke's mother, because he'd been driven mad by the untimely death of his wife so he had a motive, even if it was bat sh!t insane!

I think maybe if the game had gone into more detail about the hardships the Templars face, like first hand lyrium addiction/withdrawal, a Mage/Templar love affair being uncovered causing one or both to be severely punished by Meredith as she began to descend into madness, or a new Templar recruit having to strike down his first Mage then watching him freak out after etc. Sure, we saw one or two "good" Templars like Thrask and Cullen (towards the end) but without getting a deeper understanding of the Templars "good side" it makes it hard for me to actively side with them.

Perhaps DA3 will encourage us to feel a larger degree of sympathy for them by showing us the gritty side to the Templar Order that the "good" Templars have to endure.

I find myself thinking that the Mage Circles were originally designed to be kinda like the Xavier School for Gifted Youngsters.  A place where mages could learn to use thier abilities safely and can also be safe from people afraid of them.  The templars were meant to be both guards and guardians.

But somewhere along the line, the balances shifted.  In the White Chantry, it shifted in facor of the templars, who took to abusing their authority and the mages in their care (though not always, of course)  The Black Chantry it shifted in favor of the mages, who rule openly and any blood magic short of outright mind control is a-okay.

This is why I'm curious to see if we ever get to visit Tevinter.  Should make for an interesting contrast in what happens when mages are in authority and abuse their power,

[dragonflight288]

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. You have a good point about how the different Circles are run. I believe Anders says something about how you can only get a good Mage education at the Circle, so they do help Mages to control and understand their powers. I think you have something there about a community Circle as well, where Mages can learn about their powers, while "mundanes" who are merely interested in the theories can use their resources as well. It could grow to be seen as more of a social benefit where each side learns more about each other. In Witch Hunt, I loved perusing through the books during the Circle tower quest and there's a lot more there than just books on magic, so those resources could potentially benefit everyone.

And you've persuaded me: the real problem is people and their world view. So the question is, will our next protaganist have the ability to make social change and reform and not simply team up with the side they want to win? That would make it a truly interesting game, I think.

I have to dispute the bolded part.

I know many people don't like Merrill, citing her as stupid, naive, innocent, too much like a younger sister, playing with a dangerous mirror, yadda yadda yadda.

But she is more than capable of avoiding possession, recognizes most of the dangers in the city, even if she is largely ignorant of Andrastian culture. She spent her entire life studying magic the Dalish way, and her style is very different from the Circle.

Then we have Morrigan, and I have yet to see ANYONE call her stupid or half trained. She's one of two companions we have who enters the Fade in Broken Circle, and recognizes the illusion for what it is. She doesn't even bother dealing with demons, preferring to just kill them and avoid ANY risk of possession. Survival and Power are her priorities, but she is most definitely better trained than most Circle mages.

[Zombie_Alexis]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. You have a good point about how the different Circles are run. I believe Anders says something about how you can only get a good Mage education at the Circle, so they do help Mages to control and understand their powers. I think you have something there about a community Circle as well, where Mages can learn about their powers, while "mundanes" who are merely interested in the theories can use their resources as well. It could grow to be seen as more of a social benefit where each side learns more about each other. In Witch Hunt, I loved perusing through the books during the Circle tower quest and there's a lot more there than just books on magic, so those resources could potentially benefit everyone.

And you've persuaded me: the real problem is people and their world view. So the question is, will our next protaganist have the ability to make social change and reform and not simply team up with the side they want to win? That would make it a truly interesting game, I think.

I have to dispute the bolded part.

I know many people don't like Merrill, citing her as stupid, naive, innocent, too much like a younger sister, playing with a dangerous mirror, yadda yadda yadda.

But she is more than capable of avoiding possession, recognizes most of the dangers in the city, even if she is largely ignorant of Andrastian culture. She spent her entire life studying magic the Dalish way, and her style is very different from the Circle.

Then we have Morrigan, and I have yet to see ANYONE call her stupid or half trained. She's one of two companions we have who enters the Fade in Broken Circle, and recognizes the illusion for what it is. She doesn't even bother dealing with demons, preferring to just kill them and avoid ANY risk of possession. Survival and Power are her priorities, but she is most definitely better trained than most Circle mages.

Oh, I don't disagree with you at all. I'm merely paraphrasing something I heard Anders say. And I do believe he has a point. It is the only organized place to get an education for *most* Mages. But you are right. Both Merrill and Morrigan (and Bethany, Velanna and Hawke, if you play a Mage) are competent despite the fact they learned their craft elsewhere. But they had the advantage of being born into a situation where they could. Morrigan had Flemeth, Bethany and Hawke had Malcolm, and both Velanna and Merrill were born to the Dalish. Most non-Dalish Mages aren't so lucky and are born to a family with a social fear of their abilities. I wrote in my original post that I like the way the Dalish treat their Mages and I hope that aspect of their culture can be explored in more detail in future games, because I think it's a good alternative to the Circle.

I wrote a good long paragraph about how I like Merrill and think her story wasn't told as well as it should have been, but then it started to derail the topic, so I'll leave this as it is. :innocent:

[Karlone123]

iakus wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

I personally find it very hard to side with the Templars in DA2, simply because there are very few sympathetic Templar characters in comparison to the Mages. Sure, a lot of the crazy blood Mages done some really dodgy stuff, but for the most part it was portrayed as retaliation... Hell, I even felt kinda sorry for the dodgy necromancer bloke who zombified Hawke's mother, because he'd been driven mad by the untimely death of his wife so he had a motive, even if it was bat sh!t insane!

I think maybe if the game had gone into more detail about the hardships the Templars face, like first hand lyrium addiction/withdrawal, a Mage/Templar love affair being uncovered causing one or both to be severely punished by Meredith as she began to descend into madness, or a new Templar recruit having to strike down his first Mage then watching him freak out after etc. Sure, we saw one or two "good" Templars like Thrask and Cullen (towards the end) but without getting a deeper understanding of the Templars "good side" it makes it hard for me to actively side with them.

Perhaps DA3 will encourage us to feel a larger degree of sympathy for them by showing us the gritty side to the Templar Order that the "good" Templars have to endure.

I find myself thinking that the Mage Circles were originally designed to be kinda like the Xavier School for Gifted Youngsters.  A place where mages could learn to use thier abilities safely and can also be safe from people afraid of them.  The templars were meant to be both guards and guardians.

Think of it as Magneto's school for Gifted Mages.

[KainD]

These discussions, they have such strong points, people are radical and ready to act. It is very fun and scary at the same time to think that people here ( myself included ) discuss things to pass the time, or to have a friendly chat on the lore, but in reality if we were to find ourselves a part of Dragon age universe we would be slaughtering each other in cold blood with these opinions that come to life.