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[Samzo77]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Warden: (I forgot the actual line here, so I'll paraphrase) I thought templars liked killing mages?

Cullen: I know some who discuss such things with glee.

The templars are better in Ferelden, but the problem still exists, as shown by Wynn's discussion of Aneirin, an elf from the alienage who left at the age of 14 to seek the Dalish. He was tracked by the templars and run through, no questions asked or answered. They simply called him maleficar and had him killed, or so they thought.

Wynn also mentions that many mages are killed as they are discovered by angry mobs who blame mages for a bad crop, someone's cow dying, or what have you and a mage just happens to be discovered at the time. And that's Ferelden.

The story of Aneirin is a good point, though could be considered isolated. The angry mobs are not Templars, so much as angry townsfolk. Part of the charge of the Templars is to protect the mages from others, not just themselves. That's why I agree with the original intent.

[Reaverwind]

Sabriana wrote...

After playing through the one and only time, I realized that Hawke could do nothing. She couldn't save her brother. She couldn't save her mother. No matter what, she was strapped in a chair and taken for a ride. She never had any control, she simply reacted.

After seeing what Anders did, which again, she never had any control over, I, the player, simply rolled a dice. I no longer cared. The templars came up sixes. So that's who I went with.

It didn't really matter. After "herp derp" Orisino, she had to face saiyan samurai Meredith. Same as the other path.

After all, MageHawke was pretty weird all in herself. No one even acknowledged it. After seeing that, nothing really mattered any more. Most mages where demon touched, and most templars were sadists.

I returned to an earlier save, and took the mages side. Same old, same old. Orsino still went 'herp derp', and Meridith still turned into anime. So what's the difference? By that time, I simply wanted it to end. Never managed a second play-through
.

There was a difference? I was thoroughly disgusted by the representation of both sides. So, I tossed a coin and went with the side that doesn't summon demons.

[LobselVith8]

Samzo77 wrote...

We can see what the Templars in Kirkwall were doing, and how they mistreated mages, but the Tenplars in Ferelden seemed more reasonable. They gave the warden a chance to neutralize the situation, and the leadership was glad when annulment was avoided (except Cullen). To assume all Templars are oppressive is is overreaching.

While Knight-Commander Greagoir allowed The Warden to handle the situation, the mage protagonist can still tell Wynne that the Chantry controlled Circle is a "prison" and an "oppressive place." And Wynne counters with the notion that the mage protagonist can change that if he (or she) takes a leadership position at the Circle; she goes as far as to tell The Warden that while it's her dream to see change transpire in the Circle, she doesn't think she will live long enough to see it happen. It's not as though the Chantry controlled Circle of Ferelden is ideal.

That said, I don't think the templars are evil (as we can clearly see from Ser Bryant, the Lothering templars, Ser Otto, and even Knight-Commander Greagoir in Origins), but I think the Chantry controlled Circles are the wrong solution. I'm sure there are people who disagree with me.

Samzo77 wrote...

Next, consider the reason the Circles exist in the first place. Through Mage rule the Tevinter Imperium conquered most of Thedas, and oppressed its citizens. Under the guidance of Andraste, the Tevinter was pushed back, and the Chantry was founded through her teachings.

Drakon I founded the Chantry of Andraste from one of the many Cults of Andraste that had arisen after her demise. He became Emperor of Orlais from one city-state after a number of Exalted Marches on his neighbors, and he created the Order of Templars and the Circle of Magi based on his religious ideals. While the Imperium has mages, so did the Kingdom of Arlathan (as we know from Witch Hunt), who they enslaved. And it's likely that Shartan had elven mages working with him when he aided Andraste and fought alongside her in rebelling against the Imperium.

Samzo77 wrote...

I support the Templars and the chantrys intentions, but not all of the methods. Mages have two specific traits that must be considered, 1) magic gives them an inherent advantage against adversities, enemies, competitors, and so on. 2) mages are are susceptible to temptation in a way that can result in abominations, mind control, and the loosing of demons and spirits. These two traits make mage's unique.

1) Which is why the mages are such an asset during the Blights. Also, as Gentivi noted about the New Exalted Marches (against the Qunari invaders): "The greatest advantage of the Chantry-led forces was the Circle of Magi. For all their technology, the Qunari appeared to harbor great hatred for magic. Faced with cannons, the Chantry responded with lightning and balls of fire."

2) Which leads to the dichotomy between the people who agree with the Chantry controlled Circles, and the people who think another solution is warranted where mages aren't under the heel of the templars or the Chantry of Andraste. I don't think that allowing a religious order that permits templars to have "divine right" over mages is the correct solution. I doubt there will ever be a consensus on this issue between pro-templar and pro-mage fans.

Samzo77 wrote...

The best solution for the middle age period they live in, is for the mages to be monitored under Templar supervision. Any Mage that follows the Chant should submit willingly. Any Mage that does not believe as the chantry does, should consider the partnership as admirable and practical, allowing for the advancement of magical study in a safe environment.

I don't think there can be a middle ground between templars who think mages belong in the Chantry controlled Circles and believe they have "divine right" over mages, and mages who want their autonomy from the templars and the Chantry of Andraste. The two factions are in direct opposition to each other; they want the exact opposite of the other. I think that, realistically, it would have to come down to one or the other.

[dragonflight288]

I don't think there can be a middle ground between templars who think mages belong in the Chantry controlled Circles and believe they have "divine right" over mages, and mages who want their autonomy from the templars and the Chantry of Andraste. The two factions are in direct opposition to each other; they want the exact opposite of the other. I think that, realistically, it would have to come down to one or the other.

And it has. Lambert saw to that. Instead of reforms to allow mages more freedoms and rights, not total freedom, he ordered bloodshed and genocide rather than support the Divine.

The story of Aneirin is a good point, though could be considered isolated. The angry mobs are not Templars, so much as angry townsfolk. Part of the charge of the Templars is to protect the mages from others, not just themselves. That's why I agree with the original intent.

I agree with the original intent as well. I believe templars serve a dang useful function in society. But I honestly can't see Aneirin being an isolated incident. Otherwise more questions would've been asked. Also didn't help that he was an elf who many templars and most humans, are prejudiced against anyway.

Then we have Thrask saying in Ace 1 that if Hawke didn't resolve the situation before Kerras arrived, it would be a bloodbath. Kerras the templar wouldn't even bother looking for another solution. He'd go straight to the killing.

Gregoire, in the comics, is seen beating a pregnant mage.

[Samzo77]

These are some good points, but I still think I side with the Templars.
While Andraste did not set up the circles, and probably was aided by mages (and there's evidence to support she was a Mage), it was her teachings and message against Tevinter rule that led to the foundation of the Chantry and the subsequent foundation of the circles.

Some blame the templars for the actions some mages take. You could say that mages only turn to blood magic and summon spirits when they are backed into a corner, or desperate, but that was not the case with Tevinter. These mages chose to do evil things to gain power. Magic set them apart, and made them superior, and they had to maintain superiority at all costs.

There's a great conversation between Bethany and Aveline, in which Aveline commends Bethany for having restraint on her magical abilities. Bethany comments that Aveline has a sword, and it was not so specialist that she wasn't walking around killing people. Aveline points out that she can put her sword down, and Bethany admits she wishes she could do the same with magic. But mages cannot disarm themselves, except through tranquility.

Feynreil is a boy who is whispered to in his dreams, as demons try to take hold of him and his power. He never summoned them, they were drawn to them, and he was constantly susceptible to their influence. He poses a huge threat to the safety of Kirkwall for as long as he is MIA.

Maybe the Templars were harsh on Aneiren, but what are their other options. A Mage can pose a constant threat to the rest of society, and this one has run away from the only place he can be both taught and monitored. Rebellious mages can only be dealt with consistently, and if they pose a threat, then neutralization is the best option. If they refuse to be monitored, that you can't be sure if they truly are a threat, until the become possessed and burn down a village.
Just look at Anders. He escaped how many times? And the Templars are content to just keep bringing him back. And how does that turn out? He blows up innocent people to prove a point.

The only Mage who truly seemed to understand the need for partnership with the chantry in efforts to reform was Wynne. We see this in her conversations in DA:O, as well as her actions in Asunder. The chantry and it's Templars serve a very important purpose, the problem isn't their existence, it's their leadership. There should be reform, but the circles should remain, tranquility should remain, and mages should submit to the oversight of the Chantry.

[azarhal]

I find all the arguments that Wynne is an abomination and should have told the Templar about her condition extremely amusing considering what happen in Asunder.

I side with the Mages all the time. I just can't bring myself to side with the Templar who put all the mages in the same pot and just run them through with a sword when they don't like them. They see mages as cattle, not humans with emotions. That is mostly caused by the fact that most Templar are chosen (or attracted to the job) because they have traumatic experience with Mages.

[EricHVela]

After thinking more on it, it's not so much as choosing to take sides with the mages as taking sides against Meredith, specifically.

Depending on the variation of Varric's story, I might consider choosing a side with Thrask, a Templar, but his views on the Templar's role to protect mages is far, far different than Meredith's view that Templars keep mages under control. (Even Cullen eventually decides that Meredith's views are whack in some stories.)

Orsino is slightly on the extremist and careless side, IMHO. (Anders is very much so.) So, I'm not really choosing his side as anything other than the better alternative.

That's just my opinion, though. There's no need to go spreading that around.

[Rinshikai10]

Samzo77 wrote...

These are some good points, but I still think I side with the Templars.
While Andraste did not set up the circles, and probably was aided by mages (and there's evidence to support she was a Mage), it was her teachings and message against Tevinter rule that led to the foundation of the Chantry and the subsequent foundation of the circles.

Some blame the templars for the actions some mages take. You could say that mages only turn to blood magic and summon spirits when they are backed into a corner, or desperate, but that was not the case with Tevinter. These mages chose to do evil things to gain power. Magic set them apart, and made them superior, and they had to maintain superiority at all costs.

There's a great conversation between Bethany and Aveline, in which Aveline commends Bethany for having restraint on her magical abilities. Bethany comments that Aveline has a sword, and it was not so specialist that she wasn't walking around killing people. Aveline points out that she can put her sword down, and Bethany admits she wishes she could do the same with magic. But mages cannot disarm themselves, except through tranquility.

Feynreil is a boy who is whispered to in his dreams, as demons try to take hold of him and his power. He never summoned them, they were drawn to them, and he was constantly susceptible to their influence. He poses a huge threat to the safety of Kirkwall for as long as he is MIA.

Maybe the Templars were harsh on Aneiren, but what are their other options. A Mage can pose a constant threat to the rest of society, and this one has run away from the only place he can be both taught and monitored. Rebellious mages can only be dealt with consistently, and if they pose a threat, then neutralization is the best option. If they refuse to be monitored, that you can't be sure if they truly are a threat, until the become possessed and burn down a village.
Just look at Anders. He escaped how many times? And the Templars are content to just keep bringing him back. And how does that turn out? He blows up innocent people to prove a point.

The only Mage who truly seemed to understand the need for partnership with the chantry in efforts to reform was Wynne. We see this in her conversations in DA:O, as well as her actions in Asunder. The chantry and it's Templars serve a very important purpose, the problem isn't their existence, it's their leadership. There should be reform, but the circles should remain, tranquility should remain, and mages should submit to the oversight of the Chantry.

The quote Aveline makes is a good one but, I would like to hear her reaction to hearing this one "what is more dangerous thoses that cannot put their weapons down or those that won't.

You make some good points, I personally side with the mages. Mainly because as of now I don't see the Chantry or its leaders as a symbol of reform. The events in dragon age 2, dawn of the seeker, and asunder have shown that on many accounts Justinia/Elthina not willing to get there hands bloody. I know that this sounds crual to say be good people don't automaticaly make good leaders.

This is just my opinon but if some examples had been made out of some of the more zeolot templars such as  Ser Alrik. More templars like Thrask may have started to been seen from the rest of them. Had this been the case I could possibly see the more Zelot templars starting to rethink there ways.

The idea of reform from within the Chantry sounds like a good idea, but thats all it is, an idea. Many of Justinia and Wynnes actions have not shown that they have listend to the voices of those they claim to be helping.

Wynne talks about how change can not be forced in awakening, as well as saying that the mages will never be free of the chantry and templars. In origins we learn that she did not have much is any life outside the circle. Making sound more like a tool for the Chantry rather then a leader for changed. She tells the mages to wait a promises that change will come, but has she gone through what her fellow mages have in the cicles? She has had more freedom then most due to her chances of earning them. How many in the Circles have gotton the same chances. I know that Wynne is a moderite but sometimes she seems more like a loylist.

I know that Justinia is trying to reform the Circles, but some of her actions don't paint her in the best of light. Her inaction in Kirkwall being one of her major failings. Instead of trying to pospone the vote Fiona put forward she outright dispands that collage, earning more distane then trust from the mages, she appears to have Wynne as an ally by Asunder but by then Wynne is considered a tratior by many mages groups including some of her own. This becomes the case by the time of the meeting in the White Spire.

I do believe that some form a guadian needs to be presents around mages but, I don't think the Chantry is up to it. Templars from my Understanding are recruited more for their zeol then their duty. Overall in the future I don't see many if any coming to either the Chantry or Orlias side when they call comes out. In nine hundred years they appear to have made more enemies then friends. Now they are suffering for it now.  

All in all I don't support the templars because I don't think that they are capable of doing their orders without falling to the corruption their power has given them. 

thats just my opion though

I guess in a nut shell I only supported the templars to get the achivement.

Modifié par Rinshikai10, 03 juillet 2012 - 09:29 .

[dragonflight288]

Maybe the Templars were harsh on Aneiren, but what are their other options. A Mage can pose a constant threat to the rest of society, and this one has run away from the only place he can be both taught and monitored. Rebellious mages can only be dealt with consistently, and if they pose a threat, then neutralization is the best option. If they refuse to be monitored, that you can't be sure if they truly are a threat, until the become possessed and burn down a village.
Just look at Anders. He escaped how many times? And the Templars are content to just keep bringing him back. And how does that turn out? He blows up innocent people to prove a point.

Anders escaped 7-8 times, the first as an apprentice. Aneirin escaped once. What's the difference between the two? Well apart from their race...not much. Anders was brought back and put in isolation. Aneirin was run through.

Anders was brought to the Circle in chains, stolen from his mother. Aneirin came from the Alienage, also likely stolen from his family. He was a 14 year old kid who needed time to adjust. Wynne admits giving him no time, and the templars didn't give him a chance like they did Anders.

[Lotion Soronarr]

JSlither wrote...

I'm curious as to how anyone can choose to take the side of the oppressor and actually justify it. Convince me that the Templars locking mages up in a tower is a better alternative than them being free and attending a school that teaches them about magic and being a mage with the Templars themselves simply being a police force that goes after "the bad ones".

It's rather simple.
Mages aren't like normal people. They aren't a stand-in for a real-life minority. They truly are dangerous.
An abomination can destroy villages with ease, kill hunderds. Powerfull abominations can do far worse (take a look at the Countess).

It's not even about a mage being good or bad - any mage, regardless of how nice his personality is - can become an abomination. And there's no no way to tell. No amount of teaching can remove the threat of abominations or blood magic.

Think of mages as people who escaped from ground zero of a new and deadly desease. There's no way to tell which are carriers and which aren't. Their personality and feelings have 0 effect on the deadliness of the desease.
So you quaranteene them all.
You really cna't let them out, your goal is to stop the spread. Likewise, all mages roaming free means you are no longer preventing, you are doing damage control. A slow, reactionary force is by definition inefficient.
By the time the templars or anyone else manages to react something, the blood mage/abomination will have gotten away and there will be dead littering the streets.

Mages being segregated is tragic, but necesary.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Rinshikai10 wrote...
All in all I don't support the templars because I don't think that they are capable of doing their orders without falling to the corruption their power has given them.

HAHAHAH:lol::lol:

Yes..because lord knows mages don't fall to corruption.

Dear lord, that's a silly argument. All humans can fall prey to corruption. In ANY large organization there WILL be bad apples. The bigger the organization  the more there will be.
This is true even today with all the oversight we have.
It cannot be avoided, only somewhat reduced.

If corruption and abuse of power is the reason against templars, than any mage-run Circle or mage-run ANYTHING will suffer from the exact same problems.

[dragonflight288]

Think of mages as people who escaped from ground zero of a new and deadly desease. There's no way to tell which are carriers and which aren't. Their personality and feelings have 0 effect on the deadliness of the desease.
So you quaranteene them all.

Right, and the fact that more and more mages are born every day, the number is increasing in total. In three years, the number of mages in the Free Marches who were identified had doubled. If magic is a disease, then following that reasoning, where does the idea of separation and destruction end? Mages who are well-rounded, have a strong self-esteem, have a much lower chance of becoming an abomination. Mages who are emotionally tortured by the Chantry telling them that their very existence is a curse, beaten and abandoned by their families who had been taught by the Chantry, and then put into a place where

a. there is almost no privacy whatsoever.
b. their emotions can be neutered at the whim of the First Enchanter and the Knight-Commander if they are considered weak
c. where rape and templar abuse is not punished or even investigated
and
d. they can be beaten to talking to civilians

....you have a situation where you shouldn't be surprised if you find a lot of desperate blood mages and abominations. And by saying those mages don't care about the world....why would they? The world has already proven it doesn't care about them.

Mages being segregated is tragic, but necesary.

And yet every non-andrastian and non-qunari culture says differently and are perfectly fine.

[Lotion Soronarr]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Think of mages as people who escaped from ground zero of a new and deadly desease. There's no way to tell which are carriers and which aren't. Their personality and feelings have 0 effect on the deadliness of the desease.
So you quaranteene them all.

Right, and the fact that more and more mages are born every day, the number is increasing in total. In three years, the number of mages in the Free Marches who were identified had doubled. If magic is a disease, then following that reasoning, where does the idea of separation and destruction end?

Mages are a tiny minority. I don't see anything confirming that their numbers are increasing disproportionaly to the overall population increase.

Mages who are well-rounded, have a strong self-esteem, have a much lower chance of becoming an abomination.

Sauce.

And yet every non-andrastian and non-qunari culture says differently and are perfectly fine.

They aren't perfectly fine.

The dalish? Broken remenants of a broken people. Living roamin trouhg wilderness. And occasionaly entire clans are lost to abominations.
Just because the dalish accept all those deaths doesn't mean everything is perfectly fine. People have for hunderds of years accepted all kinds of natural disasters as puishment from gods. Or just learned to live (and die) with them. Burry your dead and move on. 
Hardly ideal.

[Dave of Canada]

dragonflight288 wrote...

And yet every non-andrastian and non-qunari culture says differently and are perfectly fine.

How are they "perfectly fine"?

Tevinter is a nation ruled with an iron-fist where mages openly fight on the streets, sacrifice people to entertain guests and the strong rule over the weak--which basically means blood magic runs rampant, despite their Circle system basically being identical to other circles (except the for-life clause was removed).

Dalish live in small groups with restrictions on how many mages can travel per clan, they understand the necessity to restrict your mages. No civilization can emulate it because they're nomads and their precautions only work against one to two abominations at once.

Chasind are basically Dalish but they're far more primitive, for all we know countless clans of Chasind are wiped out by abominations and we never hear about it because they were wiped out. Or perhaps they thrive, somehow avoiding all the pitfalls every other mage in the entire world has to tip-toe around without much practice.

Rivain revere their mages but they aren't "perfectly fine" as their solution to keep rebuilding after burying their dead and dismissing abominations as forces of nature isn't one everyone accepts.

The fact of the matter is, you're either dealing with the problem or you're ignoring it. Qunari, Dalish, Tevinter and the Andrastians all deal with it in different ways while the Chasind and Rivain ignore it--there's no "perfectly fine" anywhere.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 05 juillet 2012 - 01:09 .

[dragonflight288]

How are they "perfectly fine"?

Tevinter is a nation ruled with an iron-fist where mages openly fight on the streets, sacrifice people to entertain guests and the strong rule over the weak--which basically means blood magic runs rampant, despite their Circle system basically being identical to other circles (except the for-life clause was removed).

Dalish live in small groups with restrictions on how many mages can travel per clan, they understand the necessity to restrict your mages. No civilization can emulate it because they're nomads and their precautions only work against one to two abominations at once.

Chasind are basically Dalish but they're far more primitive, for all we know countless clans of Chasind are wiped out by abominations and we never hear about it because they were wiped out. Or perhaps they thrive, somehow avoiding all the pitfalls every other mage in the entire world has to tip-toe around without much practice.

Rivain revere their mages but they aren't "perfectly fine" as their solution to keep rebuilding after burying their dead and dismissing abominations as forces of nature isn't one everyone accepts.

The fact of the matter is, you're either dealing with the problem or you're ignoring it. Qunari, Dalish, Tevinter and the Andrastians all deal with it in different ways while the Chasind and Rivain ignore it--there's no "perfectly fine" anywhere.

Tevinter is now an Andrastian nation with a liberal interpretation of the Chant of Light, matching their own culture that they had from the beginning. Still Andratian.

The Dalish always have at least 2 mages in every clan. The Keeper and the First. I suppose the point I was trying to make was that if magic and the threat of abominations are as big an issue as the Chantry claimed, then why on earth isn't the Dalish extinct yet? Also, they are forced into small, nomadic groups because of the prejudice against elves in general by society at large. It's not just the magical freedom they have.

As far as the average human is concerned, a knife-ear (their words, not mine) is sub-human (Vaughn) who needs to be reminded that they aren't people, and aren't worth being more than a servant. Many City-elves share this same belief (Cousland origin, the elf servant who doesn't want her daughter getting any ideas that she could be anything better than a servant). Magic is part of it, but just by virtue of being elves, they already have it rough.

Granted, they're being self-righteous idiots at times doesn't help either.

As for the Chasind. I admit that they live in small tribes. But they have also, throughout history, been able to raise large armies so that the Tevinter Imperium had to be on constant guard. And they were never conquered.

Rivain seers need to be better looked at. It's true they allow themselves to be possessed, but are they possessed in a fashion similar to Anders, where a Spirit of whatever Virtue is in the Seer, or are they big fat and wart covered abominations? Without further evidence, I'm leaning toward the former.

And the people of Rivain love their seers and magic so much, that they violently reject the Chantry and its views of magic.

I suppose I misspoke when I said perfectly fine, as they do have a lot of other social issues, but as far as magic is concerned, there is little lore that suggests they suffer the same problems as the Chantry and the Qun do. And if there is so little news, well there's a saying. No news is good news.

I may be proven wrong in the future, but until then, I'm sticking to the lore and evidence presented in-game and in-comic/novels. If there's something in the games or books I'm missing, feel free to point it out and present the source. I'll happily read it.

[Samzo77]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Maybe the Templars were harsh on Aneiren, but what are their other options. A Mage can pose a constant threat to the rest of society, and this one has run away from the only place he can be both taught and monitored. Rebellious mages can only be dealt with consistently, and if they pose a threat, then neutralization is the best option. If they refuse to be monitored, that you can't be sure if they truly are a threat, until the become possessed and burn down a village.
Just look at Anders. He escaped how many times? And the Templars are content to just keep bringing him back. And how does that turn out? He blows up innocent people to prove a point.

Anders escaped 7-8 times, the first as an apprentice. Aneirin escaped once. What's the difference between the two? Well apart from their race...not much. Anders was brought back and put in isolation. Aneirin was run through.

Anders was brought to the Circle in chains, stolen from his mother. Aneirin came from the Alienage, also likely stolen from his family. He was a 14 year old kid who needed time to adjust. Wynne admits giving him no time, and the templars didn't give him a chance like they did Anders.

I think that's my point. Anders should have been put down the first time he ran. A consistent policy on this would have drastically changed what happened in Kirkwall.

[RampantAndroid]

Reaverwind wrote...

There was a difference? I was thoroughly disgusted by the representation of both sides. So, I tossed a coin and went with the side that doesn't summon demons.

They did a good job of making both sides loathesome didn't they...that said, you don't see many mages that are normal mages in the circle, which kinda prevents you from seeing the good side of mages. You at least seem some good templars.

[Plaintiff]

Samzo77 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Maybe the Templars were harsh on Aneiren, but what are their other options. A Mage can pose a constant threat to the rest of society, and this one has run away from the only place he can be both taught and monitored. Rebellious mages can only be dealt with consistently, and if they pose a threat, then neutralization is the best option. If they refuse to be monitored, that you can't be sure if they truly are a threat, until the become possessed and burn down a village.
Just look at Anders. He escaped how many times? And the Templars are content to just keep bringing him back. And how does that turn out? He blows up innocent people to prove a point.

Anders escaped 7-8 times, the first as an apprentice. Aneirin escaped once. What's the difference between the two? Well apart from their race...not much. Anders was brought back and put in isolation. Aneirin was run through.

Anders was brought to the Circle in chains, stolen from his mother. Aneirin came from the Alienage, also likely stolen from his family. He was a 14 year old kid who needed time to adjust. Wynne admits giving him no time, and the templars didn't give him a chance like they did Anders.

I think that's my point. Anders should have been put down the first time he ran. A consistent policy on this would have drastically changed what happened in Kirkwall.

They have a consistent policy: re-containment. The templars broke it when they ran Aneirin through. Their actions run contrary to Chantry Law, the Chantry just doesn't bother to enforce their own rules.

[Lotion Soronarr]

dragonflight288 wrote...
Tevinter is now an Andrastian nation with a liberal interpretation of the Chant of Light, matching their own culture that they had from the beginning. Still Andratian.

Semantics.
Kinda like the Peoples Republic of X that is a dictatoriship.

The Dalish always have at least 2 mages in every clan. The Keeper and the First. I suppose the point I was trying to make was that if magic and the threat of abominations are as big an issue as the Chantry claimed, then why on earth isn't the Dalish extinct yet? Also, they are forced into small, nomadic groups because of the prejudice against elves in general by society at large. It's not just the magical freedom they have.

Well, some clans dissapear occasionaly. Abominations do destroy entire clans of whittle them down considerably. It's not like the player will hear about it.

The two dalish clans we met in the game:
1 was almost (or was) destroyed thanks to a MAGE.
The other fell prey to an abomination (and hte player).

Yes, works great for hte Dalish...

As for the Chasind. I admit that they live in small tribes. But they have also, throughout history, been able to raise large armies so that the Tevinter Imperium had to be on constant guard. And they were never conquered.

So? Just becasue people breed fast doesn't mean that clans dying due to abomination is not a problem.

I suppose I misspoke when I said perfectly fine, as they do have a lot of other social issues, but as far as magic is concerned, there is little lore that suggests they suffer the same problems as the Chantry and the Qun do. And if there is so little news, well there's a saying. No news is good news.

Not really.
When dealing with isolated clans and villages, no news is bad news. Means something happened.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Plaintiff wrote...
They have a consistent policy: re-containment. The templars broke it when they ran Aneirin through. Their actions run contrary to Chantry Law, the Chantry just doesn't bother to enforce their own rules.

Actually, you are wrong.

How to deal with a fleeing mage is left to the templar in charge.
They will usually capture a mage and bring him back. If they deem it dangerous (or if they are ****s), they won't.

Either way, is Chatry telepathic to know exactly what happened?
How do you expect them to know what a mis-behaving templar did in a forest away from any witnesses?

[mad825]

Rojahar wrote...

I side with the Templars because I support oppression and hate freedom.

Order or anarchy. Pick your poison.

OT: I sided with the mages until the mage master turned on me. He turned to attack me and I said **** him and his cause *reloads last save then pick Templars*. 

Modifié par mad825, 06 juillet 2012 - 08:17 .

[dragonflight288]

Actually, you are wrong.

How to deal with a fleeing mage is left to the templar in charge.
They will usually capture a mage and bring him back. If they deem it dangerous (or if they are ****s), they won't.

Either way, is Chatry telepathic to know exactly what happened?
How do you expect them to know what a mis-behaving templar did in a forest away from any witnesses?

It is the Chantry law that apprentices are to be recaptured and brought back, like they did with Anders. Aneirin was a 14 year old boy who only escaped once compared to Anders 7-8 times. Yet it was the elf who gets run through on the first one, no questions asked, except by Wynne, and no answers are given.

[Lotion Soronarr]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Actually, you are wrong.

How to deal with a fleeing mage is left to the templar in charge.
They will usually capture a mage and bring him back. If they deem it dangerous (or if they are ****s), they won't.

Either way, is Chatry telepathic to know exactly what happened?
How do you expect them to know what a mis-behaving templar did in a forest away from any witnesses?

It is the Chantry law that apprentices are to be recaptured and brought back, like they did with Anders. Aneirin was a 14 year old boy who only escaped once compared to Anders 7-8 times. Yet it was the elf who gets run through on the first one, no questions asked, except by Wynne, and no answers are given.

Within reason.
I specificly remeber DG saying that just like police/soldiers do, the highest ranking officer(tempar) on the field makes decisions. Because it makes sense after all - what do the higher ups know what the situation is on the field?

So yes, they will bring them back. That is the standard modus operandi.
Unless they resist or go all blood mage. Then it's up to the tempar in charge to determine if the risk is worth it.

[TEWR]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Sauce.

Malcolm Hawke, Velanna, Zathrian, Lanaya, Feynriel, etc.

I can go on and on listing Mages that have little to no psychological issues and aren't Abominations. Just as much, I can list those who do have psychological issues thanks to the Circle system itself that became Abominations.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Mages are a tiny minority. I don't see anything confirming that their numbers are increasing disproportionaly to the overall population increase.

Admittedly, the evidence is thin -- really, almost anorexic. But the cheese-worshipping guy in the Hanged Man will state that his mother used to say there were more mages around then when she was a kid. He'll chalk it up to the smoke lyrium in the water.

So his statement should be taken with a grain of salt.

The other piece of evidence is a letter from Ser Alrik the Sadist to Divine Justinia V. In it, he says there are more mages now then 3 years prior.

Then there's Sandal's "One day the magic will come back. All of it" comment, which is vague in its meaning but is highly speculated on anyway.

This suggests a few scenarios, all of which are possible:

1) More and more Mages are being born, and will eventually become the majority.
2) Kirkwall's Mages are just being hidden a lot more as the city-state becomes more oppressive to the Mages
3) Ser Alrik and Crazyface McGoo were just seeing things and acting crazy, respectively.

I'll personally lean more towards #2 as the first possibility, with #1 a close second.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 06 juillet 2012 - 05:05 .