101 réponses à ce sujet

[eschilde]

Hm, if it wasn't an interesting boss fight with an awesome deathblow at the end, I'd probably pass. "Run, my pretty little chunks of xp, run!" But you know, if you talk to Flemeth about it, she's awfully glib. She doesn't deny Morrigan's accusation or anything. She just seems.. amused. Like if you actually killed her it'd be a minor inconvenience. If she wanted me to take her word over Morrigan's, she could have joined the party early in the game.

[thegreateski]

ct1615 wrote...

kill em all, let the maker sort em out!

Eski approves +10

[Herr Uhl]

eschilde wrote...

Hm, if it wasn't an interesting boss fight with an awesome deathblow at the end, I'd probably pass. "Run, my pretty little chunks of xp, run!" But you know, if you talk to Flemeth about it, she's awfully glib. She doesn't deny Morrigan's accusation or anything. She just seems.. amused. Like if you actually killed her it'd be a minor inconvenience. If she wanted me to take her word over Morrigan's, she could have joined the party early in the game.

Morrigan says that it wont kill her, just inconvenience her. She probably will just have to find herself a new host.

[kormesios]

althor123 wrote...

If you are looking for a moral reason to kill Flemeth, its pretty easy. If you romance Morrigan, you will find that she falls in love with you, and truly cares. Morrigan is a product of her upbringing, mainly from Flemeth. You also learn that this plan to bring back the old god was made before Flemeth ever saved you. She saved you for her own reasons, not out of compassion, and not to end the blight. Ending the blight is just one of the consequences to killing the archdemon and releasing his soul for Morrigan to consume in the baby. Now, we no reason not to believe what Morrigan says about Flemeth's ability to extend her life. We know she has had other daughters in the past that have vanished.

Your standards of evidence is horrible, here:

- We don't know that Flemeth had other daughters that "vanished."  We have rumors of daughters over the centuries, who may have never existed, left, died of old age, etc.
- Morrigan, while too indifferent to others to be a master liar, is certainly deceitful and able to come up with deceptions that get others killed for  her own benefit (at least according to herself).
- The reason not to believe, or to be skeptical, of Morrigan about the "daughters' story" is that Morrigan has reason to lie: She wants more power, including Flemeth's grimoire.
- Certainly the tale has all the hallmarks of a lie: Evidence only Morrigan can see,  the appeal not to investigate further by talking to Flemeth, and the insistence on her profiting.  (Doesn't mean it *is* a lie, just that it smells funny.)
- The ritual plan, which you only know about out-of-character anyway, is again purely attested to from Morrigan; there's no independent evidence that Flemeth planned that, or thought ti was more important than just stopping the blight (or even than just saving some wardens.)
- Even if you do count the ritual as evil and assume it's Flemeth's idea, you don't need to kill her not to have it take place.  It's not like she tries to force you to do it if you spare her--in fact, unlike Morrigan, Flemeth doesn't spend a of time making demands of you.

The only moral argument for killing Flemeth is if you are convinced Morrigan's story is true, and there's no definitive evidence.  There's enough evidence to suspect Morrigan is really in danger, but IMHO not enough for a moral character to kill someone over. 

Especially since there's no urgency--you can defer the decision while you try to find out what's happening.

I think the best 'good' justification role playing wise is that you could always decide to play the credulous sap to Morrigan's femme fatale, which is actually an interesting perspective on the story.

Modifié par kormesios, 13 décembre 2009 - 11:57 .

[eschilde]

Herr Uhl wrote...

eschilde wrote...

Hm, if it wasn't an interesting boss fight with an awesome deathblow at the end, I'd probably pass. "Run, my pretty little chunks of xp, run!" But you know, if you talk to Flemeth about it, she's awfully glib. She doesn't deny Morrigan's accusation or anything. She just seems.. amused. Like if you actually killed her it'd be a minor inconvenience. If she wanted me to take her word over Morrigan's, she could have joined the party early in the game.

Morrigan says that it wont kill her, just inconvenience her. She probably will just have to find herself a new host.

I don't remember what Morrigan says when she gives you the quest, I thought it was just something like go kill Flemeth, but you have to go without me because she might just take my body when you kill her. Actually, I guess that does imply it's an inconvenience and she'll just find a new host. But I remember being like wtf at the end of the game when Morrigan says she'll be back. 

So, I guess that means there's no way to perma-kill Flemeth? In theory anyway.

[likeorasgod]

Even when I play towards a semi good way...I kill her....my thought is more I kill the more XP I get.

[Curlain]

Two of my characters shared your moral quandary, since they as yet didn't know of the whole 'using us to get a god-child' plan, just that Flemeth had saved us (Alistair and my PC), even if it was to stop the Blight.  However she was obviously doing that for her own purposes even then, and Morrigan was in real danger (or so my PC's believed, they were crazy about her), so it was a tough decision.

However they managed to solve it easily enough.  They pretended Flemeth was Isolde - strangely enough they didn't have any issues with cutting the old witch down then (in fact they became rather bloodthristy )

Modifié par Curlain, 14 décembre 2009 - 12:02 .

[kormesios]

eschilde wrote...
I don't remember what Morrigan says when she gives you the quest, I thought it was just something like go kill Flemeth, but you have to go without me because she might just take my body when you kill her. Actually, I guess that does imply it's an inconvenience and she'll just find a new host. But I remember being like wtf at the end of the game when Morrigan says she'll be back. 

So, I guess that means there's no way to perma-kill Flemeth? In theory anyway.

Morrigan does say she thinks it will knock Flemeth out of the game for a while ,but not permanently--that's why she needs the grimoire, to study for defense against a future attack.

OTOH, she does say earlier that Flemeth could be killed, just like anyone else.  This inconsistency could be lack of knowledge at the time she made the first statement, or deceit in the second one.

If you believe Morrigan, though, then you are right: there's no way to kill Flemeth.  If you don't trust her, it's a big question mark what's happened, but she sure looks dead.

[Damar Stiehl]

Both Morrigan and Flemeth are schemers and liars, the question is which liar do you trust more.

We know Flemeth is not just an apostate, she's a maleficar. There are WAY too many indications that she did make a deal with a Fade daemon for it to be untrue. Sure, she has kept her daemonic half in check thus far (at least while dealing with you), but she is still an abomination, so I have no qualms about cutting her down to size.

And it's not as if she dies for good anyway. She'll come back eventually. Meanwhile, I could use one less evil variable.

[eschilde]

kormesios wrote...

Morrigan does say she thinks it will knock Flemeth out of the game for a while ,but not permanently--that's why she needs the grimoire, to study for defense against a future attack.

OTOH, she does say earlier that Flemeth could be killed, just like anyone else.  This inconsistency could be lack of knowledge at the time she made the first statement, or deceit in the second one.

If you believe Morrigan, though, then you are right: there's no way to kill Flemeth.  If you don't trust her, it's a big question mark what's happened, but she sure looks dead.

Yeah, I guess it is a bit inconsistent. I don't know though, I do believe you can't kill Flemeth permanently just because of how she acts when you show up on her doorstep. Actually, it's pretty consistent with what her character is; death of a body is probably something that's happened to her before and I guess she probably knows how to deal with it, so some adventurers showing up to kill you isn't a big deal.

So... people keep calling Morrigan a liar but I'm not sure why? I mean, she's got issues and there's a lot she doesn't tell you, but I didn't really get the impression that she lies to you about everything she says. Same for Flemeth, both of them say things without really answering or giving complete answers. I mean, yeah, it is a matter of which you trust more in this decision, but I didn't really get the impression that Morrigan would lie about something like this. I can't think of that many reasons she'd actually want Flemeth dead..

[Herr Uhl]

kormesios wrote...
Morrigan does say she thinks it will knock Flemeth out of the game for a while ,but not permanently--that's why she needs the grimoire, to study for defense against a future attack.

OTOH, she does say earlier that Flemeth could be killed, just like anyone else.  This inconsistency could be lack of knowledge at the time she made the first statement, or deceit in the second one.

If you believe Morrigan, though, then you are right: there's no way to kill Flemeth.  If you don't trust her, it's a big question mark what's happened, but she sure looks dead.

Earlier she also did not say that she knew anything about her "sisters" or how her mother stays alive. I think that it is consistent, given that you believe that Flemeth did not tell Morrigan that she was a bodysnatcher.

She might have made it up, as Shale proposes in a banter. But then why would Flemeth not deny it, if she needed to save you at the tower, why not try to keep you from getting killed by her? And the "robes of possession" are a definite hint. Or did Morrigan plant that there beside the book that she craved to gain moar power?

[ginzaen]

Curlain wrote...

Two of my characters shared your moral quandary, since they as yet didn't know of the whole 'using us to get a god-child' plan, just that Flemeth had saved us (Alistair and my PC), even if it was to stop the Blight.  However she was obviously doing that for her own purposes even then, and Morrigan was in real danger (or so my PC's believed, they were crazy about her), so it was a tough decision.

However they managed to solve it easily enough.  They pretended Flemeth was Isolde - strangely enough they didn't have any issues with cutting the old witch down then (in fact they became rather bloodthristy )

lol isolde got on my nerves also next time i wil thinkof this thanks

[DPSSOC]

My first playthrough I took Flemmeth's deal because I seriously doubted my chances of success. I did feel bad about it and kind of wanted to warn Morrigan but even were I given the option I'm skeptical that that would work out well either. Then I found out Flemmeth becomes a dragon and that just made me want to kill the old bat.

[mousestalker]

The robe in the hut pretty much confirms what Morrigan said about Morrigan's ultimate destiny if Flemith lives.



On the other hand letting Morrigan raise a god-baby is a bad idea as well. Which is why my last 'good' character killed Flemith, rebuffed Morrigan and let Loghain kill the archdemon. That is what good does, thwart psychotic and sociopathic people.

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

Shale challenges Morrigan on whether it is true that Flemeth wants to take her body.

Morrigan challenges Shale to read the Grimoire if he doesn't believe her.

I didn't have a reason to doubt that at the very least, Morrigan was afraid of Flemeth and that Flemeth plans on snatching her body. Besides if you tell Flemeth that Morrigan knows the secret behind her immortality, Flemeth doesn't deny the charges, suggesting that yes indeed she plans on taking Morrigan's body.

This is the information you know without having knowledge of the games end or what is in Flemeth's hut. More than enough to realize that despite saving your life, Flemeth is a monster that shouldn't be tolerated. Even if you dislike Morrigan, you can't claim to have a higher moral ground when you know that fact.


If you did beat the quest you'd know Flemeth even has "Robes of Possession" for Morrigan to wear when she gets back home...

I mean come on.

Killing Flemeth shouldn't be a moral hang up at all.

Modifié par Mikazukinoyaiba2, 14 décembre 2009 - 01:44 .

[Cabidela]

Black Knight-MtG...

Battle doesn't need a purpose; the battle is its own purpose. You
don't ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don't ask why I fight.

[kormesios]

eschilde wrote...
Yeah, I guess it is a bit inconsistent. I don't know though, I do believe you can't kill Flemeth permanently just because of how she acts when you show up on her doorstep. Actually, it's pretty consistent with what her character is; death of a body is probably something that's happened to her before and I guess she probably knows how to deal with it, so some adventurers showing up to kill you isn't a big deal.

She's powerful, ancient and not quite right in the head.  Her reaction could be insanity, misplaced ****iness, a cunning scheme, knowledge that she can't really be killed, or anything in between--pretty much everything seems consistent with her character.

So... people keep calling Morrigan a liar but I'm not sure why? I mean, she's got issues and there's a lot she doesn't tell you, but I didn't really get the impression that she lies to you about everything she says.

Her story about getting a Chasind man executed by playing the scared damsel is the most definite example that I can think of.
Personally I don't think she's a habitual liar, in that sense i agree.  And I think she's too oblivious to others' feelings to be *really* good at it (unlike Leliana) but she's plainly indifferent to the truth.  If she thought she could benefit from lying to you about the grimoire, she wouldn't hesitate.  (Not that I'm convinced she's lying or would want to kill Flemeth; just that it's possible.)

Herr Uhl wrote...
Earlier she also did not say that she knew
anything about her "sisters" or how her mother stays alive. I think
that it is consistent, given that you believe that Flemeth did not tell
Morrigan that she was a bodysnatcher.

Yes, that is also true; I nodded in that direction in my first post.  It is consistent Morrigan finding out more, and deciding her old definitive statement was wrong.  Of course, it is also consistent with Morrigan improvising a lie.  But I wouldn't count this one as suspicious.
I will note that Morrigan claiming the grimoire solves the whole "missing daughters" thing is inconsistent--the bodysnatcher story explains what happens to only one daughter per generation, so it doesn't explain the legends of multiple daughters at a time, or (if there weren't mutiple ones) why Morrigan would expect to see one.

She might have made it up,
as Shale proposes in a banter. But then why would Flemeth not deny it,
if she needed to save you at the tower, why not try to keep you from
getting killed by her?

Why she'd fight you at all, if she was immortal and needed you for the blight quest, is unclear.  As I said above, there are lots of possible reasons.  Her not confirming or denying is frustrating, but completely consistent with the other two conversations we have with her.

And the "robes of possession" are a definite
hint. Or did Morrigan plant that there beside the book that she craved
to gain moar power?

Am I missing something on those?  A couple people have mentioned them.  It's just a magic item name for some powerful robes?  Or is there a codex entry?  
I outiftted Morrigan with them in my endgame, was I unwittingly helping Flemeth out?

Modifié par kormesios, 14 décembre 2009 - 07:12 .

[kormesios]

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

Shale challenges Morrigan on whether it is true that Flemeth wants to take her body.

Morrigan challenges Shale to read the Grimoire if he doesn't believe her.

The grimoire that is in a secret language only Morrigan can read?  Very convincing, indeed. Definitely not a bluff at all. 

[The Capital Gaultier]

Considering that "killing" her isn't taken more seriously by her or Flemeth than "a temporary setback," I can't honestly say I felt much remorse for her. Besides, the case Flemeth makes for her own cause is rather... silly? Trusting Flemeth just seemed like a bad idea to me.

[Wompoo]

I actually felt that killing Flemeth or indeed the whole quest was absolutely pointless, as was so many quests in the main story. To many quests had zero impact on the main story arc or had consequence. As for the possible Alister/god child ending, well, that could make a very interesting DAO 2 or 3... you could play as the bastard god child of a King bringing about more death and destruction or one saving the pathetic humans once more. Flemeth? Morrigan? both just there as filler to provide a happy ending, rather then the suicide crap of the Wardens, Wardens heros? hardly.

[Dermain]

kormesios wrote...

- The ritual plan, which you only know about out-of-character anyway, is again purely attested to from Morrigan; there's no independent evidence that Flemeth planned that, or thought ti was more important than just stopping the blight (or even than just saving some wardens.)

Actually, if you talk to Flemeth before you kill/do not kill her you get the option to say:

"And what do I get out of this" her response is "(Chuckles) You get to keep her. For a time."

That implies that Flemeth knows that Morrigan will leave after the ritual is completed(although she does leave if you do not do the ritual, but either way she does stay for a time).

[asaiasai]

I never kill Flemeth ever since play through one and i found out tha Morrigan walks out on you unless you let her spawn some demon child. To avoid any negative feelings from your party members it is important who you bring. I have found so far that Shale, Dog, Allister, are the perfect group to bring when you TALK to Flemeth, as Shale does not seem to care, Dog does not talk and Allister hates Morrigan as much as i do,and rather likes the idea.



Flemeth saved my life on the tower in Ostagar and i can not under any circimstances repay that kindness, whether is was for her own self preservation or not, by killing her to keep Morrigan safe. I rather like the idea that some day Morrigan will get what is coming to her, while i may not ever be able to track Morrigan down, i have no doubt that Flemeth will be able to find her.



If Morrigan was willing to stay and help me do my duty and slay the archdemon regardless of my decision concerning the ritual i would revisit my decision. Until Morrigan is changed in such a manner as that she will stay and help you fight the archdemon with out condition, Morrigan will be lied to every time, Flemeth will be allowed to walk away, and i have NO problem with that decision, as a matter of fact it is THE easiest decision to make in the game. Thanks Bioware you guys are not entirely heartless bastards, you have given the player at least one easy question to answer.



Asai

[ReubenLiew]

She gives good exp.

More than enough reason to slay anything in this game.

[Zenon]

Myrkale wrote...

kormesios wrote...

- The ritual plan, which you only know about out-of-character anyway, is again purely attested to from Morrigan; there's no independent evidence that Flemeth planned that, or thought ti was more important than just stopping the blight (or even than just saving some wardens.)

Actually, if you talk to Flemeth before you kill/do not kill her you get the option to say:

"And what do I get out of this" her response is "(Chuckles) You get to keep her. For a time."

That implies that Flemeth knows that Morrigan will leave after the ritual is completed(although she does leave if you do not do the ritual, but either way she does stay for a time).

If Flemeth takes over Morrigan's body, the old Morrigan will be gone, too. So this statement is not necessarily pointing out, that Morrigan is leaving the hero or heroine for sure.

My character considered the options. Flemeth was most likely much more powerful than meets the eye (which she proves if you go into battle against her). It's also quite obvious, that Morrigan just takes advantage of the hero's feelings to provide her a service she couldn't do alone. Flemeth is also no threat to the character. Actually here I wonder, why no other companion objects. Alistair would certainly favor killing an apostate, but the others hardly have motivation to kill an old woman.

The major reason I could think of for the hero would be a love relationship with Morrigan. Another one would be, if some power or special treasure could be gained that way. Being offered the grimoire without a fight takes the motivation out of this kind of fight. Especially when one can't be sure if Flemeth would actually be permanently gone after killing her physical form.

Simply killing for the sake of EXP is meta-gaming. Some may like that to max their score, while I think it breaks my RP experience.

One last point: If you read "The Stolen Throne" you know that King Maric and Loghain also met her. What she did and said there was something I couldn't completely ignore when making some choices in the game...

P.S.: Actually I liked her too much as a NPC with her mysteries, concept, voice, etc., that I'd have regret as a player to have killed her. I'm a fan of magic and esoteric, perhaps that's why I enjoy such characters, which may drive others nuts.

--

ENCHANTMENT!

[marshalleck]

Oh I like mysterious characters...I just don't like characters that talk in circles and say things in response to you that make no coherent sense--as though they had heard something come out of your mouth that was entirely different from what you actually said.

Her dialogue when you return to her hut just irritates me to no end so I chop off her head and leave it at that, I don't even bother to talk to her any more than I have to to initiate the fight.

Modifié par marshalleck, 14 décembre 2009 - 12:56 .