101 réponses à ce sujet

[Zenon]

marshalleck wrote...

Oh I like mysterious characters...I just don't like characters that talk in circles and say things in response to you that make no coherent sense--as though they had heard something come out of your mouth that was entirely different from what you actually said.

Her dialogue when you return to her hut just irritates me to no end so I chop off her head and leave it at that, I don't even bother to talk to her any more than I have to to initiate the fight.

Try to talk with a Zen master. Those often don't give any direct answers, but rather hints. Those hints not seldomly are hidden between the lines as well.

I found her quite direct asking if Morrigan found someone to dance according to her tune? Just a metaphor. Same with answering if the hero should dance to her tune instead? When she asks why dance at all it is already clear, that she'd prefer to avoid any direct (battle) confrontation.

Anyway, I liked that. But I understand not everybody may like this piece of dialogue.

[kormesios]

Myrkale wrote...

kormesios wrote...

- The ritual plan, which you only know about out-of-character anyway, is again purely attested to from Morrigan; there's no independent evidence that Flemeth planned that, or thought ti was more important than just stopping the blight (or even than just saving some wardens.)

Actually, if you talk to Flemeth before you kill/do not kill her you get the option to say:

"And what do I get out of this" her response is "(Chuckles) You get to keep her. For a time."

That implies that Flemeth knows that Morrigan will leave after the ritual is completed(although she does leave if you do not do the ritual, but either way she does stay for a time).

Like everything else that goes on, it's completely (and frustratingly) non specific.  Morrigan's personality is not one for stable relationships, so it's really not a stretch for her to say that even if nothing is going on.  It could also mean the other two things (posession, or post-ritual abandoment) mentioned.  Or even just a future revenge murder.  Or non-murderous confrontation in which Flemeth reveals you betrayed Morrigan .  . .

To address the larger picture: My first play through I thought the ritual dialog was maybe just badly written, in the sense that it never became 100% clear to the character what was going on.  I thought we were supposed to "know" Flemeth was evil, and it wasn't properly communicated.

In my second play through, looking more closely, there is such an avoidance of anything specific I think it is purposely ambiguous.  Flemeth's behavior is suspicious enough to think Morrigan might be correct, but the writers refused to let you get absolute confirmation.  You can't read either grimoire and none of the dialog choices--even "I want the truth"--let you get details.  I think it's a bit cheap that you aren't allowed to press the issue, as my PC would do, but that's what we have to work with.

As it stands, I think it can be reasonably role-played so the PC is doubtful, neutral, or very confident that Morrigan is telling the truth, depending how much your PC trusts Morrigan and views her as a true friend.

As a player, I personally think Flemeth is more likely evil than not.  But I'm not convinced completely, and I am also fairly certain there is more going on. 

A PC I role-played who thought that way would not kill Flemeth.  As long as it could turn out to be a mistake (ie, she wasn't that evil, or evil in that way) or a trap of some sort (Morrigan's? Flemeth's?), the PC would avoid confrontation until the issue was pressing.

[InvaderErl]

Killing Flemeth = Eh, couldn't hurt.

[Pimpmyvanagon]

Flemeth not only personally saved your character's life, she made it possible to gather the army your character needs to defeat the blight by preserving the Grey Warden treaties, and then seeing they made their way into your character's hands.

Sure, you could argue she was doing all those things in self-interest, that she has her own agenda. And that's undoubtedly true.

But compared to that list, what has Morrigan done for you? Obliquely threatened to poison your food, complained a lot, and possibly gotten into a weird clingy-but-in-denial relationship with your player character?

For me it's no contest.

Plus it's funny when she has her big dramatic hissy fit after you turn down the ritual, because you know Flemeth is waiting out there of her but Morrigan has no clue. My character gets the last laugh.

[alexandros777]

I killed her solely because I figured it wouldn't truly stop her. And I like testing myself against the powerful. She just begged for a killing.



Good fun all around.

[InvaderErl]

Pimpmyvanagon wrote...

Flemeth not only personally saved
your character's life, she made it possible to gather the army your
character needs to defeat the blight by preserving the Grey Warden
treaties, and then seeing they made their way into your character's
hands.

Sure, you could argue she was doing all those things in self-interest, that she has her own agenda. And that's undoubtedly true.

But
compared to that list, what has Morrigan done for you? Obliquely
threatened to poison your food, complained a lot, and possibly gotten
into a weird clingy-but-in-denial relationship with your player
character?

For me it's no contest.

Plus it's funny when
she has her big dramatic hissy fit after you turn down the ritual,
because you know Flemeth is waiting out there of her but Morrigan has
no clue. My character gets the last laugh.

Just admit you want to bed Flemeth.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 15 décembre 2009 - 04:16 .

[Pimpmyvanagon]

InvaderErl wrote...

Just admit you want to bed Flemeth.

Ergh, I'll pass. Her Captain Janeway voice gave me a massive hard-off from the second she opened her mouth.

[InvaderErl]

Engage!

[Zibon]

Please do NOT put spoilers in your title

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

kormesios wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

Shale challenges Morrigan on whether it is true that Flemeth wants to take her body.

Morrigan challenges Shale to read the Grimoire if he doesn't believe her.

The grimoire that is in a secret language only Morrigan can read?  Very convincing, indeed. Definitely not a bluff at all. 

I don't think you would challenge anyone to read something if when they accept only you can read the language.

[Lotion Soronarr]

I'm amused by how much people claim to "know"



We know Flemeth ad many daughter that al lvanished? We know that how? From whom? Waht does that tel lus?



By talking with Flemeth you get the impression that this is some sort of game that she and Morrigan have been playing...that Morrigan sent others to confront her mother before. All of those excursion Morrigan made out of the wolds..could it be they all ended with some poor fool tricked into attacking Flemeth.

Flemeth herself is surprised when you decide you want nothing to do with either of them anymore.



I killed Flemeth, and I wish I haven't. I mean I really have no concrete evidence of anything. She may be a manipulative b*** like Morrigan. Or not. I just don't know, and so far she's been helpfull.



My next playtrough I'm just ignoring both of them.

[fkirenicus]

Suprez30 wrote...

[ED: Flemeth] will kill Morrigan and probably possesses her.

One can only hope...

[Dzikv]

I mostly "kill" her myself... For the fame and glory of killing the legendary Flemeth! She saved me for her own purpose... She is the same as Morrigan... Probably much worse. Selfish power hungry demon-witch...



And its highly probable if no certain that she survives either way. She also mentions if you saved her that is that you won't see her again... ever... So i expect she is just there too start off Morrigan in the plot. Nothing more.

[Wheresmycow]

In no way was morality involved in my choice to kill Flemeth. It was very simple: Aellas loved Morrigan. That in of itself was probably a bad idea, especially since she was pretty much using him physically at that point, but he couldn't help it. So he went to kill Flemeth. And I like to think he felt bad, since this woman did help him... up until he came across the Robes of Possession. That was the 'And now my moral anguish has suddenly disappeared' moment.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

vilnii wrote...

Even more confusing is the fact that if you decide to spare Flemeth's life for all the right reasons:

1, Flemeth has saved your life
2. She helped the grey Wardens by keeping their secrets
3. She is an old woman and deserves 'a chance'

The good party members with you like Wynne (who is wise) disapprove.

So your act of compassion is fed back to you as evil.

Yeah and if you have Alastair there he admits to it being a fun trick to play on Morrigan and states he is an evil man.

Zevran actually approves of allowing Flemeth to live. Forgot what the line was that he said during the conversation.

Anyway, just gone past this point on fourth playthrough and this is first time I've spared her.

My first playthrough character nearly spared her but I can't remember which line it was but it basically sealed her fate as far as that character was concerned. (wish could remember which line it was). Second playthrough, my character loved Morrigan and would do anything for her, but he wouldn't do the ritual, hmm suddenly had vision of the character singing the Meatloaf song "I'd do anything for love (but i won't do that)":lol:

On this recent playthrough where I spared Flemeth, the character is a bit of a diplomat and would rather talk things through if possible first before resorting to violence. She is also a bit of a bookworm and likes to know other peoples thoughts on such matters (hence getting Leliana to tell the tale she knows of flemeth).

Thus the one thing that niggles me a bit is that mages don't get the option to read the grimoire, nor the second one despite having a conversation option when speaking to flemeth that you just want it for yourself. I reckon it would be interesting for the player to be able to read them (if they can understand them). The thing that has got me lately is the line Flemeth says when you state Morrigan knows the secret of her unnatural lifespan.

"Yes she does, the question is, do you?"

Then the whole "Oh but it is a tale Flemeth has heard before... and has told herself"

Granted that should probably put the person into not trusting either of them, but if the legend is true and even if what morrigan is said is true, killing her really won't make much of a difference as she will possibly still come back. How? If Morrigan steers clear of the hut where you killed her, there must be another way she comes back (even if it does take longer). The way my character sees it, hopefully she will get to the bottom of this riddle that the legend truly is and also so far Morrigan has proved quite handy with her tales of life outside of the circle.

Again like with so many other areas, the choice is that of the character as is their opinions on why they did it.

[Herr Uhl]

kormesios wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
Earlier she also did not say that she knew
anything about her "sisters" or how her mother stays alive. I think
that it is consistent, given that you believe that Flemeth did not tell
Morrigan that she was a bodysnatcher.

Yes, that is also true; I nodded in that direction in my first post.  It is consistent Morrigan finding out more, and deciding her old definitive statement was wrong.  Of course, it is also consistent with Morrigan improvising a lie.  But I wouldn't count this one as suspicious.
I will note that Morrigan claiming the grimoire solves the whole "missing daughters" thing is inconsistent--the bodysnatcher story explains what happens to only one daughter per generation, so it doesn't explain the legends of multiple daughters at a time, or (if there weren't mutiple ones) why Morrigan would expect to see one.

The stories tell of different daughters of Flemeth, not multiple at the same time. Given that there is a new lass seen every 30 odd years, it is not outlandish to assume that there would be more than one.

She might have made it up,
as Shale proposes in a banter. But then why would Flemeth not deny it,
if she needed to save you at the tower, why not try to keep you from
getting killed by her?

Why she'd fight you at all, if she was immortal and needed you for the blight quest, is unclear.  As I said above, there are lots of possible reasons.  Her not confirming or denying is frustrating, but completely consistent with the other two conversations we have with her.

Yes, she is a most curious creature that Flemeth. But demons and darkspawn are not in any way allies, on the contrary. If you grant that Flemeth is an abomination, she would have a reason to fight. Think that they don't like darkspawn cause of the taint, as indicated by Avernus to be something completely alien to them.

And the "robes of possession" are a definite
hint. Or did Morrigan plant that there beside the book that she craved
to gain moar power?

Am I missing something on those?  A couple people have mentioned them.  It's just a magic item name for some powerful robes?  Or is there a codex entry?  
I outiftted Morrigan with them in my endgame, was I unwittingly helping Flemeth out?

It is in the item description, something along the lines of: These are a morbid "welcoming gift" for Morrigan. Nothing to indicate that Flemeth gains any influence through them though.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 15 décembre 2009 - 12:44 .

[Skellimancer]

Flemeth must be protected form the evil Morrigan.



Just warn Flemeth, take the grimoire and burn it.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Skellimancer wrote...

Flemeth must be protected form the evil Morrigan.

Just warn Flemeth, take the grimoire and burn it.

Skellimancer, we know how much you really love Morrigan, stop trying to deny it :happy:

You are just annoyed that she wasn't a female/female romance aren't you?

It is ok to admit it, we won't think any worse of you.

[Herr Uhl]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...
It is ok to admit it, we won't think any worse of you.

That is hardly possible <_<

[Skellimancer]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...
It is ok to admit it, we won't think any worse of you.

That is hardly possible <_<

Thats it! i am going to kill Morrigan again!

[Skellimancer]

[Herr Uhl]

You made Sten an accomplice, you fiend!

[Skellimancer]

Herr Uhl wrote...

You made Sten an accomplice, you fiend!

Party approves +50

[Herr Uhl]

Skellimancer wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
You made Sten an accomplice, you fiend!

Party approves +50

Sten is the only party member that she actually wants to join (except maybe Shale, but she hates her for being mage) and the tension between them is so thick you can cut it with a maul. Sad thing she wussed out.