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[BatmanTurian]

shodiswe wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

This won't end as long as there are IT people jumping into other discussions advertising the one and only truth to everything, discouraging all other ideas.

It takes a lot of signs, loose contexts and innuendo. All of which can be found in the game and be interpreted in any way you want. Then they piece it together looking for a meaning in a similar way as Astrology. Looking for clues into starts, planetary inclinations orbits and positions, as a methaphor.. Then they weave a compelling story that they like to think is true.
If someone asks them about the proof thenthey point as the "signs" in game.
If someone questions the interpretation or claims it to be impossible to read something that specific into the "signs" they are called stupid by IT people.

If someone questions the interpretation then they are automatically too stupid or ignorant or need to read more from the IT threads to gain sufficient understanding. It's stonewalling and denial.

As such IT people will keep jumping int threads that have noting to do with IT just to protect their interpretation of the IT. There for if someone mentions soemthing that touches one of the signs they are immediately there to correct and make sure there is only one truth and one interpretation.

It's like the Catholic church's fear of scientists like Galileo who claimed that the simplest explanation to the movements of the plants in our star system is that the move around the sun and not around the earth.
He didn't renounce god but still the old ideas of how the universe was working, the universe "created by god" could possibly be different to what people had been taught... It was a threat that had to be dismantled.

IT people usualy acts like the Catholic church. Some IT people might want to reverse that, but non-IT people hasn't got anything major to pretect, no grand theory, other than the freedom of speech maybe and getting tired fo geting assaulted on every thread. IT people are protecting their faith or their Baby, and nothing will ever convince them that it isn't worth protecting so they will go to any length to do so.

There is absolutely no hope what so ever that this will ever end, until the day when IT people actualy fold their idea completely due to Bioware, though no matter what hapens I find it unlikely they will drop it until they turn their back on the game and forums completely. A lot of IT people are thankfully less fanatical and are just hoping to get a better ending, hopefully they will get a better ending from Bioware.

The only hope would be that Bioware releases something so good that most IT people forget about IT because the new gift is so much more appealing. Looking forward to the EC.

Here's to hoping this ends soon.

Again, continuing to insult each other will not make this better. We need to stop the religious innuendo and ad hominem. This forum could be a lot more mature if people showed respect and kept an open mind to other people's interpretations and that goes for both sides. Your post is highly inflammatory and shows you have no intent to make this situation any better.

A religious phenomena is the closest theoretical comparison I can't come up with to explain the theory and it's followers reasoning. It's based more on belief, assumptions and a personal need for an explanation than “hard fact’s” and logic. for example writing on walls, vega talking about noises things taken out of it's context then forged together to a theory that shepard is indoctrinated or dreaming and therefor the "real ending will be released later" because the current ending is too horrible to be true and can't possibly be the real ending.
The way pieces are pieced together and the meaning imprinted on each piece can be derived from the desires of the people piecing it together. Each piece of evidence is given the meaning that suits the IT the best just to make it seem plausible.

I'm ok with people saying they wish it was this way, but most IT people are saying it's the one and only truth and everyone who doesn't agree with it are idiots. Can you truly expect people to respect you when you run around treating people that way? When people complain about your behavior you start complaining about their objections or their attempts to understand you.

There are two descriptions that fit well into this kind of behavior, "religious belief" you have faith in your idea and anything that goes against your beliefs is bad and must be blocked and pushed away.
Or it's the the mother whos defending her childs behaviour, who can't for any reason can't see that the child did anything wrong because it's her little baby!

One could just aswell reason that the reaper invasion is Armageddon and that the catalyst is god, and that shepard can't object because no one can object in the face of god.... That would be the Biblical theory or something. Then point out Ashley Williams as a central figure explaining how the universe works and thus guiding Shepard through ME1, then telling Shepard Cerberus is wrong in ME2 and in ME3. Aswell as numerous biblical references names and inspiration.. well... whatever... the thing is any theory can be spun using the in game material and can be used to create any kind of story for the ending.
It's not what I belive though, just want to make that clear.. Just in case. So please don't start anything..
I'm ok with people having their own endings and fanfiction, but people are trying so hard to sell this idea to the point where they start posting inflammatory posts all over the board, I've keept my mouth shut for months, it hasn't helped.

And considering the way people relate to this "theory" nothing can stop it from becoming an inflammatory.
Even you should be able to admit that the theory is based on fan speculation and assumptions, not hard facts. You should also be able to admitt that some IT people are taking it too far with the "truth" point of view and trying to push it on people like Jehovah witnesses booksellers, only with even more colorful language and condescending remarks.
Also those who arn't the pushy bookseller types will immediately jump on the bandvagon starting more inflamatory posts if people complain about the agressive IT people and see the complaint as an all out attack on IT and all IT people.. Like overprotective mothers or religious people protecting their beliefs... Pick which ever you prefer.
This is imo a very accurate decription of the IT and it's social mechanics.

You're looking through it with a very biased prism. In the IT thread, we look at evidence and judge its worthiness or not constantly. Sometimes we throw stuff away because it doesn't make sense. But it's not a religious endeavor. We are not pouring over a holy book. It's more like what your Literature teacher teaches you to do with classical literature.

I'm sorry but calling it a religion is a fallacy, a falsehood, and completely inflammatory. It completely invalidates whatever point you're trying to make. We don't worship Bioware. We don't have rituals. It's just interpreting data a different way than you apparently did. We use a methodical method of inquiry to judge what we find. We don't believe it on faith, we believe it because we have compelling evidence from the game, codex, and story to back it up.

If you don't want to believe it, that's fine. But it's not a religious belief and I grow very tired of this fallacy. Especially since I, myself, am a Deist and I take nothing on faith beyond that science describes Einstein's God.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 19 juin 2012 - 08:23 .

[aries1001]

I don't know why certain people calles people that think IT theory could work, is a possible solution to the confusion caused by the current ME3 ending or just thinks it explains everything well, what the OP is claiming.

But my guess would be something along the lines of this:

Could it really be that simple ---- naah, we don't think so. Bioware seems better at writing than to have done this e.g. to have Shepard indoctrinated.....

As for me, I certainly personally feel that is a suggestion that makes some sense. It explains why Shepard just accepts the ghost-boy in the machine explanations and I al so feel that the music Fades into another realm....

[Reorte]

Without reading through several pages of thread...

I'd have to agree that anyone who actually believes IT probbaly is rather stupid or delusional. Belief, to me, means that they are completely and utterly sure it's right and simply refuse to accept that any other possibilities even exist. That isn't supported by the evidence. On the other hand people who think that it's the most probable and plausible explanation of what happened at the end of IT have an entirely valid point of view.

[BatmanTurian]

Reorte wrote...

Without reading through several pages of thread...

I'd have to agree that anyone who actually believes IT probbaly is rather stupid or delusional. Belief, to me, means that they are completely and utterly sure it's right and simply refuse to accept that any other possibilities even exist. That isn't supported by the evidence. On the other hand people who think that it's the most probable and plausible explanation of what happened at the end of IT have an entirely valid point of view.

And your last sentence is what most of us fall under. It's probable and plausible, but I can see how it could be implausible. I'm open to a literal explanation if Bioware goes that way in the EC and fills the plotholes that make a literal view nonsensical. I also see it as a way to salvage the endings, but nothing more. I don't believe it's absolutely true.

[shodiswe]

BatmanTurian wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

This won't end as long as there are IT people jumping into other discussions advertising the one and only truth to everything, discouraging all other ideas.

It takes a lot of signs, loose contexts and innuendo. All of which can be found in the game and be interpreted in any way you want. Then they piece it together looking for a meaning in a similar way as Astrology. Looking for clues into starts, planetary inclinations orbits and positions, as a methaphor.. Then they weave a compelling story that they like to think is true.
If someone asks them about the proof thenthey point as the "signs" in game.
If someone questions the interpretation or claims it to be impossible to read something that specific into the "signs" they are called stupid by IT people.

If someone questions the interpretation then they are automatically too stupid or ignorant or need to read more from the IT threads to gain sufficient understanding. It's stonewalling and denial.

As such IT people will keep jumping int threads that have noting to do with IT just to protect their interpretation of the IT. There for if someone mentions soemthing that touches one of the signs they are immediately there to correct and make sure there is only one truth and one interpretation.

It's like the Catholic church's fear of scientists like Galileo who claimed that the simplest explanation to the movements of the plants in our star system is that the move around the sun and not around the earth.
He didn't renounce god but still the old ideas of how the universe was working, the universe "created by god" could possibly be different to what people had been taught... It was a threat that had to be dismantled.

IT people usualy acts like the Catholic church. Some IT people might want to reverse that, but non-IT people hasn't got anything major to pretect, no grand theory, other than the freedom of speech maybe and getting tired fo geting assaulted on every thread. IT people are protecting their faith or their Baby, and nothing will ever convince them that it isn't worth protecting so they will go to any length to do so.

There is absolutely no hope what so ever that this will ever end, until the day when IT people actualy fold their idea completely due to Bioware, though no matter what hapens I find it unlikely they will drop it until they turn their back on the game and forums completely. A lot of IT people are thankfully less fanatical and are just hoping to get a better ending, hopefully they will get a better ending from Bioware.

The only hope would be that Bioware releases something so good that most IT people forget about IT because the new gift is so much more appealing. Looking forward to the EC.

Here's to hoping this ends soon.

Again, continuing to insult each other will not make this better. We need to stop the religious innuendo and ad hominem. This forum could be a lot more mature if people showed respect and kept an open mind to other people's interpretations and that goes for both sides. Your post is highly inflammatory and shows you have no intent to make this situation any better.

A religious phenomena is the closest theoretical comparison I can't come up with to explain the theory and it's followers reasoning. It's based more on belief, assumptions and a personal need for an explanation than “hard fact’s” and logic. for example writing on walls, vega talking about noises things taken out of it's context then forged together to a theory that shepard is indoctrinated or dreaming and therefor the "real ending will be released later" because the current ending is too horrible to be true and can't possibly be the real ending.
The way pieces are pieced together and the meaning imprinted on each piece can be derived from the desires of the people piecing it together. Each piece of evidence is given the meaning that suits the IT the best just to make it seem plausible.

I'm ok with people saying they wish it was this way, but most IT people are saying it's the one and only truth and everyone who doesn't agree with it are idiots. Can you truly expect people to respect you when you run around treating people that way? When people complain about your behavior you start complaining about their objections or their attempts to understand you.

There are two descriptions that fit well into this kind of behavior, "religious belief" you have faith in your idea and anything that goes against your beliefs is bad and must be blocked and pushed away.
Or it's the the mother whos defending her childs behaviour, who can't for any reason can't see that the child did anything wrong because it's her little baby!

One could just aswell reason that the reaper invasion is Armageddon and that the catalyst is god, and that shepard can't object because no one can object in the face of god.... That would be the Biblical theory or something. Then point out Ashley Williams as a central figure explaining how the universe works and thus guiding Shepard through ME1, then telling Shepard Cerberus is wrong in ME2 and in ME3. Aswell as numerous biblical references names and inspiration.. well... whatever... the thing is any theory can be spun using the in game material and can be used to create any kind of story for the ending.
It's not what I belive though, just want to make that clear.. Just in case. So please don't start anything..
I'm ok with people having their own endings and fanfiction, but people are trying so hard to sell this idea to the point where they start posting inflammatory posts all over the board, I've keept my mouth shut for months, it hasn't helped.

And considering the way people relate to this "theory" nothing can stop it from becoming an inflammatory.
Even you should be able to admit that the theory is based on fan speculation and assumptions, not hard facts. You should also be able to admitt that some IT people are taking it too far with the "truth" point of view and trying to push it on people like Jehovah witnesses booksellers, only with even more colorful language and condescending remarks.
Also those who arn't the pushy bookseller types will immediately jump on the bandvagon starting more inflamatory posts if people complain about the agressive IT people and see the complaint as an all out attack on IT and all IT people.. Like overprotective mothers or religious people protecting their beliefs... Pick which ever you prefer.
This is imo a very accurate decription of the IT and it's social mechanics.

You're looking through it with a very biased prism. In the IT thread, we look at evidence and judge its worthiness or not constantly. Sometimes we throw stuff away because it doesn't make sense. But it's not a religious endeavor. We are not pouring over a holy book. It's more like what your Literature teacher teaches you to do with classical literature.

I'm sorry but calling it a religion is a fallacy, a falsehood, and completely inflammatory. It completely invalidates whatever point you're trying to make. We don't worship Bioware. We don't have rituals. It's just interpreting data a different way than you apparently did. We use a methodical method of inquiry to judge what we find. We don't believe it on faith, we believe it because we have compelling evidence from the game, codex, and story to back it up.

If you don't want to believe it, that's fine. But it's not a religious belief and I grow very tired of this fallacy. Especially since I, myself, am an atheist and I take nothing on faith.

Yet it doesn't change the fact that the methods and processing is the same. And ME1-3 = your Bible equivalent.
All proof in the IT is taken as faith, there is no single solid proof that supports IT. The acceptance of any of those proofs and judgements requiers faith.
Several religious groups use methodical methods of inquiry and judgment of their (source materials).
Scientology used it, Jehovah’s witnesses used it, the Chaotic church used it when they "modified" the bible to fit the needs and requirements of the roman holy empire.
Also I would be more inclined to call it a religious cult phenomenon instead of a mothers love phenomenon since everyone can't truly consider themselves as mothers of the theory... though given the process, I can't exclude it entirely even though some might have been more involved than others.
I can see how that would be uncomfortable for you as an atheist.
I would consider myself an atheist but I don't read too much into it. I barely consider it a question to begin with.
The so called compelling evidence is enough to raise question but it's no conclusive evidence that won't crumble like a house of cards at the first gust of wind. What's holding it together is glue made of faith, and the most powerful thing of all, hope. Hope for a better ending. I share the hope for a better ending to come.
If you don't like having this discussion there is no need to continue it. I'm simply here because of the original question and followup questions.

[BatmanTurian]

shodiswe wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

This won't end as long as there are IT people jumping into other discussions advertising the one and only truth to everything, discouraging all other ideas.

It takes a lot of signs, loose contexts and innuendo. All of which can be found in the game and be interpreted in any way you want. Then they piece it together looking for a meaning in a similar way as Astrology. Looking for clues into starts, planetary inclinations orbits and positions, as a methaphor.. Then they weave a compelling story that they like to think is true.
If someone asks them about the proof thenthey point as the "signs" in game.
If someone questions the interpretation or claims it to be impossible to read something that specific into the "signs" they are called stupid by IT people.

If someone questions the interpretation then they are automatically too stupid or ignorant or need to read more from the IT threads to gain sufficient understanding. It's stonewalling and denial.

As such IT people will keep jumping int threads that have noting to do with IT just to protect their interpretation of the IT. There for if someone mentions soemthing that touches one of the signs they are immediately there to correct and make sure there is only one truth and one interpretation.

It's like the Catholic church's fear of scientists like Galileo who claimed that the simplest explanation to the movements of the plants in our star system is that the move around the sun and not around the earth.
He didn't renounce god but still the old ideas of how the universe was working, the universe "created by god" could possibly be different to what people had been taught... It was a threat that had to be dismantled.

IT people usualy acts like the Catholic church. Some IT people might want to reverse that, but non-IT people hasn't got anything major to pretect, no grand theory, other than the freedom of speech maybe and getting tired fo geting assaulted on every thread. IT people are protecting their faith or their Baby, and nothing will ever convince them that it isn't worth protecting so they will go to any length to do so.

There is absolutely no hope what so ever that this will ever end, until the day when IT people actualy fold their idea completely due to Bioware, though no matter what hapens I find it unlikely they will drop it until they turn their back on the game and forums completely. A lot of IT people are thankfully less fanatical and are just hoping to get a better ending, hopefully they will get a better ending from Bioware.

The only hope would be that Bioware releases something so good that most IT people forget about IT because the new gift is so much more appealing. Looking forward to the EC.

Here's to hoping this ends soon.

Again, continuing to insult each other will not make this better. We need to stop the religious innuendo and ad hominem. This forum could be a lot more mature if people showed respect and kept an open mind to other people's interpretations and that goes for both sides. Your post is highly inflammatory and shows you have no intent to make this situation any better.

A religious phenomena is the closest theoretical comparison I can't come up with to explain the theory and it's followers reasoning. It's based more on belief, assumptions and a personal need for an explanation than “hard fact’s” and logic. for example writing on walls, vega talking about noises things taken out of it's context then forged together to a theory that shepard is indoctrinated or dreaming and therefor the "real ending will be released later" because the current ending is too horrible to be true and can't possibly be the real ending.
The way pieces are pieced together and the meaning imprinted on each piece can be derived from the desires of the people piecing it together. Each piece of evidence is given the meaning that suits the IT the best just to make it seem plausible.

I'm ok with people saying they wish it was this way, but most IT people are saying it's the one and only truth and everyone who doesn't agree with it are idiots. Can you truly expect people to respect you when you run around treating people that way? When people complain about your behavior you start complaining about their objections or their attempts to understand you.

There are two descriptions that fit well into this kind of behavior, "religious belief" you have faith in your idea and anything that goes against your beliefs is bad and must be blocked and pushed away.
Or it's the the mother whos defending her childs behaviour, who can't for any reason can't see that the child did anything wrong because it's her little baby!

One could just aswell reason that the reaper invasion is Armageddon and that the catalyst is god, and that shepard can't object because no one can object in the face of god.... That would be the Biblical theory or something. Then point out Ashley Williams as a central figure explaining how the universe works and thus guiding Shepard through ME1, then telling Shepard Cerberus is wrong in ME2 and in ME3. Aswell as numerous biblical references names and inspiration.. well... whatever... the thing is any theory can be spun using the in game material and can be used to create any kind of story for the ending.
It's not what I belive though, just want to make that clear.. Just in case. So please don't start anything..
I'm ok with people having their own endings and fanfiction, but people are trying so hard to sell this idea to the point where they start posting inflammatory posts all over the board, I've keept my mouth shut for months, it hasn't helped.

And considering the way people relate to this "theory" nothing can stop it from becoming an inflammatory.
Even you should be able to admit that the theory is based on fan speculation and assumptions, not hard facts. You should also be able to admitt that some IT people are taking it too far with the "truth" point of view and trying to push it on people like Jehovah witnesses booksellers, only with even more colorful language and condescending remarks.
Also those who arn't the pushy bookseller types will immediately jump on the bandvagon starting more inflamatory posts if people complain about the agressive IT people and see the complaint as an all out attack on IT and all IT people.. Like overprotective mothers or religious people protecting their beliefs... Pick which ever you prefer.
This is imo a very accurate decription of the IT and it's social mechanics.

You're looking through it with a very biased prism. In the IT thread, we look at evidence and judge its worthiness or not constantly. Sometimes we throw stuff away because it doesn't make sense. But it's not a religious endeavor. We are not pouring over a holy book. It's more like what your Literature teacher teaches you to do with classical literature.

I'm sorry but calling it a religion is a fallacy, a falsehood, and completely inflammatory. It completely invalidates whatever point you're trying to make. We don't worship Bioware. We don't have rituals. It's just interpreting data a different way than you apparently did. We use a methodical method of inquiry to judge what we find. We don't believe it on faith, we believe it because we have compelling evidence from the game, codex, and story to back it up.

If you don't want to believe it, that's fine. But it's not a religious belief and I grow very tired of this fallacy. Especially since I, myself, am an atheist and I take nothing on faith.

Yet it doesn't change the fact that the methods and processing is the same. And ME1-3 = your Bible equivalent.
All proof in the IT is taken as faith, there is no single solid proof that supports IT. The acceptance of any of those proofs and judgements requiers faith.
Several religious groups use methodical methods of inquiry and judgment of their (source materials).
Scientology used it, Jehovah’s witnesses used it, the Chaotic church used it when they "modified" the bible to fit the needs and requirements of the roman holy empire.
Also I would be more inclined to call it a religious cult phenomenon instead of a mothers love phenomenon since everyone can't truly consider themselves as mothers of the theory... though given the process, I can't exclude it entirely even though some might have been more involved than others.
I can see how that would be uncomfortable for you as an atheist.
I would consider myself an atheist but I don't read too much into it. I barely consider it a question to begin with.
The so called compelling evidence is enough to raise question but it's no conclusive evidence that won't crumble like a house of cards at the first gust of wind. What's holding it together is glue made of faith, and the most powerful thing of all, hope. Hope for a better ending. I share the hope for a better ending to come.
If you don't like having this discussion there is no need to continue it. I'm simply here because of the original question and followup questions.

As a student of literature and a writer myself, I see it as a fallacy to compare the analyzation of literature and media to religion. Again, you look at it through biased eyes. You see religion, I see interpreting events in a story. I don't know where the disconnect is, but it isn't with me. I truly think you need to rethink this religion fallacy because it simply does not apply to this phenomenon.

[Andromidius]

shodiswe wrote...

Yet it doesn't change the fact that the methods and processing is the same. And ME1-3 = your Bible equivalent.
All proof in the IT is taken as faith, there is no single solid proof that supports IT. The acceptance of any of those proofs and judgements requiers faith.

Incorrect.  If anything, denial of even looking into what IT actually says and shows is more akin to how Creationists deny any evidence that goes against their own beliefs.  Complete with slandering anyone who disagrees with them and implying 'their beliefs are a religion too!' as if to discredit their words.

Enjoy that notion for the brief moment before you discard it uncomfortably and go back to your comfortable notions of literalist interpretations.

[FedericoV]

Barsomo92 wrote...
So please stop calling us stupid or delusional. 

You're not stupid or delusional. But you are ignoring that there is a very faithfull leaked script that never mentions Sheppard indoctrination.

[TSA_383]

shodiswe wrote...

Yet it doesn't change the fact that the methods and processing is the same. And ME1-3 = your Bible equivalent.
All proof in the IT is taken as faith, there is no single solid proof that supports IT. The acceptance of any of those proofs and judgements requiers faith.
Several religious groups use methodical methods of inquiry and judgment of their (source materials).
Scientology used it, Jehovah’s witnesses used it, the Chaotic church used it when they "modified" the bible to fit the needs and requirements of the roman holy empire.
Also I would be more inclined to call it a religious cult phenomenon instead of a mothers love phenomenon since everyone can't truly consider themselves as mothers of the theory... though given the process, I can't exclude it entirely even though some might have been more involved than others.
I can see how that would be uncomfortable for you as an atheist.
I would consider myself an atheist but I don't read too much into it. I barely consider it a question to begin with.
The so called compelling evidence is enough to raise question but it's no conclusive evidence that won't crumble like a house of cards at the first gust of wind. What's holding it together is glue made of faith, and the most powerful thing of all, hope. Hope for a better ending. I share the hope for a better ending to come.
If you don't like having this discussion there is no need to continue it. I'm simply here because of the original question and followup questions.

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

I'm very open to the idea of a cash wager

And there are no "solid proofs" in anything regarding fiction. Is there solid proof that "Animal Farm" wasn't really a book about a farm? Not by your definition, but it's pretty obvious what's really going on.

Same idea here.

I'd argue you're taking this much, much too seriously (a lot of people are) but even so, it doesn't take a literary genius to work this one out.

BatmanTurian wrote...

" We know you want to destroy us" He has a slip of the tongue and reveals himself to be a reaper.

"
You can destroy all synthetic life if you want"  IF YOU WANT meaning it
won't necessarily happen. You could destroy synthetic life without even
bothering with the reapers. He phrases things in very open,
manipulative language like a con artist

" Or do you think you can
control us " again, telling us himself that he is a reaper. Not only
that but we just got done telling TIM that control of the
reapers is impossible, yet now the Catalysts says we can do it because
they were already controlling TIM so he couldn't do it. It's fishy as
hell.

"Synthesis
is the pinnicle of evolution. " Yeah, great. Except Soveriegn told us
that Reapers believe the pinnicle of evolution was a Reaper.

Ta da.


Or, to look at it from another standpoint, look at the child/catalyst.
Wait... the child.
Why would it take the form of the child?

That would mean that, either:

-The child is a reaper construct and everything in the ending is not as it seems.
-The reapers have access to shepards thoughts/memories and everything is probably not as it seems.
-????

Then you have Shepard surviving in the destroy ending.
Pray tell, how do you explain that, without coming to the conclusion that something about that final scene wasn't quite legit.

I know there's a lot of straw grasping going on in the IDT thread right now, but that's a symptom of the fact that the game's been out for a while and most of the really juicy important stuff was found months ago. What people are looking at now tends to be a little more abstract.

[shodiswe]

Yet it doesn't change the fact that the methods and processing is the same. And ME1-3 = your Bible equivalent.
All proof in the IT is taken as faith, there is no single solid proof that supports IT. The acceptance of any of those proofs and judgements requiers faith.
Several religious groups use methodical methods of inquiry and judgment of their (source materials).
Scientology used it, Jehovah’s witnesses used it, the Chaotic church used it when they "modified" the bible to fit the needs and requirements of the roman holy empire.
Also I would be more inclined to call it a religious cult phenomenon instead of a mothers love phenomenon since everyone can't truly consider themselves as mothers of the theory... though given the process, I can't exclude it entirely even though some might have been more involved than others.
I can see how that would be uncomfortable for you as an atheist.
I would consider myself an atheist but I don't read too much into it. I barely consider it a question to begin with.
The so called compelling evidence is enough to raise question but it's no conclusive evidence that won't crumble like a house of cards at the first gust of wind.
IT:
Similar to Fanboy theory, just more elaborate and desperate with even more assumptions and assumptions being relabeled as facts after extensive theological discourse.
 
 
The so called compelling evidence is enough to raise question but it's no conclusive evidence that won't crumble like a house of cards at the first gust of wind. What's holding it together is glue made of faith, and the most powerfull thing of all, hope. Hope for a better ending. I share the hope for a better ending to come.
If you don't like having this discussion there is no need to continue it. I'm simply here because of the original question and followup questions. I suggest you play the EC before you read what your friends think about it.
 
Like I said, I looked at it and there was no proof that it happened. For it to happen, it requires you to write a story about it.

Andromidius wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

Yet it doesn't change the fact that the methods and processing is the same. And ME1-3 = your Bible equivalent.
All proof in the IT is taken as faith, there is no single solid proof that supports IT. The acceptance of any of those proofs and judgements requiers faith.

Incorrect.  If anything, denial of even looking into what IT actually says and shows is more akin to how Creationists deny any evidence that goes against their own beliefs.  Complete with slandering anyone who disagrees with them and implying 'their beliefs are a religion too!' as if to discredit their words.

Enjoy that notion for the brief moment before you discard it uncomfortably and go back to your comfortable notions of literalist interpretations.

Like I said, I looked at it and there was no proof that it happened. For it to happen, it requires you to write a story about it. There is proof that says it didn't hapen but that can be explained away like everything else can be imbued a specific prefered meening in your theory.
When someone tells you a tall story that's too much to belive will a lot of angles and assumptions then it's probably too good to be true.
If anything it's IT that's looking for what's not there, by looking for hidden meaning, things that are never said, things that can never be proven, things that can only be if you want to belive.
MY whole point is that IT is a complex construction, the level of complexity massive amount of nonconclusive proof was nessesary due to it's unlikely story.
This is the same situation as with the geocentric model, massive level of complexity due to the dificulty they had of maintaining and drawing the orbits of celestial bodies, never mind explaining them.

If you ask the question:
What hapend to the ending:

Occam's razor answer
Timeconstraints, rushed ending, bad writing, failure to meet fan expectations.

Fanboy theory:
We don't think Bioware did a mistake, we think Bioware will release the real ending later. Look at the Graphics bugs, ermm I meant foreshadowing of dreaming or indoctrination. Yes, lets look for proof that the released ending was just a foreshadowing of the ending to come. We know Bioware won't let us down, they can't let us down like that.
IT:
Similar to Fanboy theory, just more elaborate and desperate with even more assumptions and assumptions being relabeled as facts after extensive theological discourse and approval.

There are plenty of organizations and communities out there that use the IT "research" methods. Like I mentioned before. If it's good enough for them then maybe it's good enough for you people.

I don't approve of the methods or requirements for said proof and therefor I won't believe in IT, but it was an entertaining reading. You are free to believe whatever you want just like Jehovah or the scientologists and conspiracy theorists out there.
The problem is that IT people keep showing up everywhere and tell the rest that we are stupid for not accepting your truth and your methods. IT's not like people had to use dogs to track you down and shoot your theory down, you keep showing it in our face and call us stupid if we say anything not in line with the IT.
Why are you even so eager to make other people "believe"? You just can't take a no for an answer. If we answer why we don't belive it then you have to start the flaming.
My explanation is not an insult, it's my evaluation of the theory based on studies comparing different methods to answer questions and/or scientific queries.
If you don't like the methods used to conceive IT or the other groups that are using/used similar methods then that's not my fault.
Like I said I don't approve of them either but a lot of people think it works for them, so kudos to them.
I'm done here, good night.

[shodiswe]

TSA_383 wrote...

/ quote

If it's written or explained in the fiction then it hapend in the fiction.

If the story tells the story of a man/woman that meets a hologram that tells them sometihng then asks them to pick A, B or C.

The Man/woman has nothing to say but, I dont know... then quietly limp to one of the options without a word, then that's what hapend.


Otherwise it should have been explained as, ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL! Shepard you will walk into the Synthesis beam because we demand it, you will die because we will enjoy watching it.  

As I see it, all we got was stunned shepard that had no idea what to say and the player was depraved of all options to drive the dialogue forward which resulted in a very one sided argument where the Catalyst had a monologue for most of the conversation.

In a game like Mass effect I would call that rushed ending or bad writing or abandoning established storytelling methods. This is the ending of the Reaper storyline, I can understand people need for the IT... Even if it makes no sense.

As for that farm, without examining it, it could just aswell have been the title of a porno that had very little to do with farms.
Assumptions are the mothers of all F-*** ups....

nn

Modifié par shodiswe, 19 juin 2012 - 10:03 .

[Soultaker08]

This thread has already become another battlefield, hasnt it?

[gosimmons]

I thought the whole thing was an interesting idea; though it's become grasping at straws taken to a whole new level.

[TeffexPope]

Barsomo92 wrote...

 Bioware likes that we are talking about the indoctrination theory one guy in the bioware team even said so 

 Wow, some great theorizing going on in this thread. I'm really enjoying it, it intrigues me. Keep it up. This is quoted from the, Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark II!
 
 So please stop calling us stupid or delusional. 



Thanks

This is pretty much just like whiney poeople who talk about politics. "Oh well the other side is always insulting us and calling us stupid!" when it goes both ways. I've seen plenty of times where I've been called an idiot for thinking Bioware would have done something with IT by now if it were real. Is it a good idea and a good argument? Yes. Is it true? Well, don't you think Bioware would've said something by now instead of letting their fan base hate what they've done and ge tall this negative press? The idea that Bioware is STILL at this point waiting to unveil their indoctrination of Shepard makes ZERO business sense.