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Dear Bioware: Romance =/= Good Character


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#1
Burnouts3s3

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 Often, the Bioware Corporation has prided and promoted
itself for its “Character development” and “Attention to character”. However,
playing such releases as “The Old Republic “and “Dragon Age 2”, I can say
emphasis is being placed on all the wrong traits. While Bioware claims that
this is character development, I say it is a rather cheap attempt in order to
gain more attention and sales from a broader audience. The ‘traits’ Bioware is
so deadly focused upon are not those of a complete character arc, but rather
pronouncing traits more in common of an idealized male or female. In other
words, they are wish fulfillment characters.

For example, take a look at this profile of Corso Riggs, a
starter companion for SW:TOR.

"Corso Riggs is a cheerful, disarmingly optimistic
mercenary soldier. Raised as a rancher's son on the rough frontier of Ord
Mantell, Corso developed a mixture of naive innocence and primitive toughness,
wrapped with old-fashioned chivalry."

"In addition to his gung-ho enjoyment of a good, dirty
fight and his encyclopedic knowledge of weapons, Corso remains a ray of
sunshine in even the worst circumstances. He has no sense of his own mortality
and is absolutely convinced he's going to live forever. Corso also has a soft
spot for damsels in distress, even when it's clear they're up to no good."

"Likes: Protecting the weak, being nice to ladies,
punishing bad guys"

"Dislikes: Hurting for profit, hurting women no matter
what they did, working with Sith or Imperials"

Notice how some phrases are coined:  “old-fashioned chivalry” “ray of sunshine” “soft
spot for damsels in distress”. Does this sound like a character fit for a space
opera, or rather a character meant to cater to a female audience? Now, I won’t
say that his morality is questioned, however, said morality is never questioned
enough.

Other characters, such as Torian Cadera, have their arcs
eliminated by their recruitment, rather than giving said character to expand
on. This puts their role on the

“What about Dragon Age 2? Those characters have complete
arcs!”

While true, Dragon Age 2’s romanceable characters emphases
traits that are either half-thought out or do things that are impractical for a
regular person. For example, Merrill chooses to restore a mirror that
essentially puts her entire clan at risk. Hawke, at a certain point, can either
help or refuse to help Merrill in this task, gaining her favor or distain. However,
such act almost has very little to do with the overarching conflict and is solely
focused on her character.

That’s not to say that romances shouldn’t be implemented,
but should be supplements to an already strongly established character and
rather adds to their arc, rather than replacing it altogether. For example, I
believe Kira Carsen from The Old Republic is a fine example of this. Her
struggle with darkness is complex. She clearly has a jaded view of the world,
but reacts positively whenever the MC responds with a helpful tone. It adds to
her background, and the romance is simply there, adding to an already
established arc.

In short, I’d rather see a well-developed complete arc of a
character that isn’t romanceable anyday over a romanceable, wish-fufilling
character that puts emphasis on all the wrong traits.

Arguements, Counter-arguments, opinions and debates are all welcome.

Modifié par Burnouts3s3, 18 juin 2012 - 02:10 .


#2
Wulfram

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(Can't comment on most of your post because it mostly seems to be about TOR which I haven't played)

Burnouts3s3 wrote...
However, such act almost has very little to do with the overarching conflict and is solely
focused on her character.


Why is that a bad thing?

#3
Corker

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Burnouts3s3 wrote...

Notice how some phrases are coined:  “old-fashioned chivalry” “ray of sunshine” “soft
spot for damsels in distress”. Does this sound like a character fit for a space
opera, or rather a character meant to cater to a female audience?


It, uh, sounds pretty exactly like a character fit for a space opera.  Specifically, a white-hatted sherrif sort of character who'd tend to warp in with the cavalry horns blowing to save the day.

Why do "a character fit for a space opera" and "a character meant to cater to a female audience" have to be opposites?  And why is "catering to" (or "appealing to") a female audience inferior to catering to a male one?

While true, Dragon Age 2’s romanceable characters emphases
traits that are either half-thought out or do things that are impractical for a
regular person. For example, Merrill chooses to restore a mirror that
essentially puts her entire clan at risk. Hawke, at a certain point, can either
help or refuse to help Merrill in this task, gaining her favor or distain. However,
such act almost has very little to do with the overarching conflict and is solely
focused on her character.


DA2's overarching conflict, IMO, is liberty/freedom versus safety/security.  (With side themes of the nature of family, loss and grief.)  Merrill's arc is entirely a part of that conflict.  Marethari represents safety and security - she does not want to take the risk of mending the mirror and forbids Merrill to do it.  Merrill takes the path of liberty/freedom and defies Marethari, embracing the risk as worth the potential reward. 

Merrill willingly pays the price for her decision all along her arc until its end.  Depending on Hawke's friendship/rivalry path with her, she either finally rejects that, destroying the mirror and what it represents, or reaffirms her committment to pursuing knowledge at cost.

Modifié par Corker, 18 juin 2012 - 03:23 .


#4
CuriousArtemis

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Corker wrote...

Why do "a character fit for a space opera" and "a character meant to cater to a female audience" have to be opposites?  And why is "catering to" (or "appealing to") a female audience inferior to catering to a male one?


Good point :)

I'm not sure how that would really appeal to today's typical female gamer, though, unless she is also a rabid paperback romance reader.  I've never played this game, but this guy does not sound like someone I would want to date ... he sounds like a pretty fun and funny video game character, though.

#5
Ellyria

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motomotogirl wrote...

Corker wrote...

Why do "a character fit for a space opera" and "a character meant to cater to a female audience" have to be opposites?  And why is "catering to" (or "appealing to") a female audience inferior to catering to a male one?


Good point :)

I'm not sure how that would really appeal to today's typical female gamer, though, unless she is also a rabid paperback romance reader.  I've never played this game, but this guy does not sound like someone I would want to date ... he sounds like a pretty fun and funny video game character, though.



Corso is only fun to romance if you also flirt and have flings with other NPCs. He flips out and it's hilarious. He was also written by Jennifer Hepler, so you know it's gonna be romance and drama abound with him. :lol:

#6
sylvanaerie

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motomotogirl wrote...

Corker wrote...

Why do "a character fit for a space opera" and "a character meant to cater to a female audience" have to be opposites?  And why is "catering to" (or "appealing to") a female audience inferior to catering to a male one?


Good point :)

I'm not sure how that would really appeal to today's typical female gamer, though, unless she is also a rabid paperback romance reader.  I've never played this game, but this guy does not sound like someone I would want to date ... he sounds like a pretty fun and funny video game character, though.


He is! but then I'm prejudiced, as the "smuggler" storyline, in which he is involved, is my favorite.  And my smuggler is romancing the big lug.  It's funny when you flirt with other NPCs and he makes all kinds of funny comments and gets jealous. Often I flirt with them just to see his reaction.Posted Image *Edit* and cool, he acts so much like Alistair, I would have thought Gaider wrote him.  Nice to hear it was Jennifer Hepler though.

And I love those 'bodice ripper' trashy romance novels with tons of drama, hammy overreacting to everything and silly (almost non existant) plots. 

Although I like Kira as well, I prefer playing female PCs (for the most part), so she's just a friend and my Knight's padawan.  I also like Mako who's like my bounty hunter's lil sisPosted Image

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 18 juin 2012 - 06:42 .


#7
Jennifer Brandes Hepler

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For what it's worth, Corso Riggs was originally designed as the "little brother" character for the Male Smuggler. He was so very clearly the beta male that it was very difficult for me to make him into a credible romance for as strong a woman as the female smuggler. After several failed attempts, the over-the-top romantic was the only real way to make him work as both a in-the-player's-shadow sidekick for the male player and a non-contemptible romance for the female. The romance was definitely written well after all of his non-romance plot dialogue, and after all the planentary romances as well. We write a lot of characters at Bioware; trying not repeat the same ones from game to game will always mean that different ones will work better for different people, and sometimes different games will work better for different people as a result.

#8
Kulyok

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SW:Tor has romances? Wow, if it is possible to play without seeing other players and interact only with NPCs(and the same people worked on the dialogue), I'm totally buying it.

Me, I think if a romance is well-written, it's worth it to play it for one playthrough and enjoy it, even if the guy is not your type. Alistair, Zevran, Fenris, Kaidan. Anomen's romances were awesome. Well, sometimes a character's behavior is just plain repulsive(Isabela or Thane), but usually there's another to compensate. What I'm trying to say is, a romance that totally fits you, one you'd be happy to replay again and again is usually a huge unexpected bonus, one we probably have no right to feel entitled about, because it's a miracle, and even a great writer can't create an individual miracle for millions of girls out there(not counting boys, because, seriously, who cares?). I got two such miracles: one was Anders in DA2, another was Garrus in ME trilogy. For someone else it might've been Morrigan or Jack or even Viconia back in Baldur's Gate. But if it didn't click, I don't think there's any point in blaming stereotypes or cliches or stuff like that. It just didn't click for you. Stuff happens. Bad luck. Happened to me in DAO, but I still enjoyed Alistair romance, even if it wasn't for me.

#9
MissRedZelda

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I'm sorry, but since when has "chivilary" been a negative character trait? I would rather they were that, rather then being d-bags.

Garrus Vakarian and Alistair are very chivalrous characters, with very well written romances (that isn't all about the sex) that add so much to their characterisation (Garrus especially). And, in my opinion, they are two of the best written characters in all Bioware games to date.

Seriously, I could write an essay on why Garrus is my favourite Bioware character.

#10
Ellyria

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Jennifer Brandes Hepler wrote...

For what it's worth, Corso Riggs was originally designed as the "little brother" character for the Male Smuggler. He was so very clearly the beta male that it was very difficult for me to make him into a credible romance for as strong a woman as the female smuggler. After several failed attempts, the over-the-top romantic was the only real way to make him work as both a in-the-player's-shadow sidekick for the male player and a non-contemptible romance for the female. The romance was definitely written well after all of his non-romance plot dialogue, and after all the planentary romances as well. We write a lot of characters at Bioware; trying not repeat the same ones from game to game will always mean that different ones will work better for different people, and sometimes different games will work better for different people as a result.


Jenn! Thanks for the info, I didn't know Corso's romance was written after all the other stuff. FWIW, I thought the Corso romance was a hoot. :lol: I did it twice, once without flirting with any of the planetary flings, and once with female smuggler being a space bicycle. I had fun each time. ^_^

#11
Plaintiff

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Burnouts3s3 wrote...
Notice how some phrases are coined:  “old-fashioned chivalry” “ray of sunshine” “soft
spot for damsels in distress”. Does this sound like a character fit for a space
opera

Luke Skywalker comes to mind.

I dont have much else to say on that, since I don't play SW:TOR.

As far as DA2 goes, it's no use saying their actions are impractical for 'regular people'. The fact is that they aren't regular people, even by the standards of the very world in which they exist. They are remarkable, in one way or another, they are outcasts, they have experienced and acheived things outside the scope of 'normal' human existence in Thedas (whatever that might entail). Something sets them apart.

Isabela is a pirate queen, Anders is a possessed ex-Grey Warden mage who is actively working to undermine the society from which he is outcast, Fenris is an escaped slave who underwent a ritual that wiped his memory and imbued him with fantastic powers.

None of them are 'regular people'. They ceased to be ordinary long before Hawke even met them, they are extraordinay people in extraordinary circumstances. What might be practical for them is not what is practical for a faceless citizen in Thedas.

You use Merrill as an example of a character who makes impractical choices: fixing the eluvian is risky. But she already knows that. She is well aware that there might be danger and she chose to go ahead anyway, because she believes that her duty, the preservation of elven history and artifacts is more important, and that any knowledge gained is worth the risk.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 20 juin 2012 - 03:14 .


#12
sylvanaerie

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It doesn't surprise me that Corso was written as the 'little brother' of the male smuggler. Though I haven't tried to play a male smuggler, I could see him being one of those characters I could enjoy in either capacity. I really like him, thanks Jennifer! and the romance is fun and funny and sweet, like the character himself.

The only companion I like more than Corso (IE my favorite) is Mako. And I haven't even romanced her (though I'd like to eventually).

#13
CuriousArtemis

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Random question to SW:TOR players: is s/s romance available in that game? I would love to create a yummy guy who could just eat up that cute Corso (have been googling him, haha xD).

#14
Red by Full Metal Jacket

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motomotogirl wrote...

Random question to SW:TOR players: is s/s romance available in that game? I would love to create a yummy guy who could just eat up that cute Corso (have been googling him, haha xD).


No.  They will have them in a future update, but not anytime soon. Right now, Bioware is probably more concerned about not bleeding more money from lost subscriptions.

#15
CuriousArtemis

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Red by Full Metal Jacket wrote...

No.  They will have them in a future update, but not anytime soon. Right now, Bioware is probably more concerned about not bleeding more money from lost subscriptions.


Thanks ... bummer!  Oh my, are people giving up on the game then?  I've never played a game like that before, where you have to pay a monthly fee.  

#16
MissRedZelda

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I would love to play SW:TOR, but I'm REALLY not interested in having to play a monthly fee on top of the game price. I'm broke enough as it is at the moment.

#17
Wittand25

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motomotogirl wrote...

Red by Full Metal Jacket wrote...

No.  They will have them in a future update, but not anytime soon. Right now, Bioware is probably more concerned about not bleeding more money from lost subscriptions.


Thanks ... bummer!  Oh my, are people giving up on the game then?  I've never played a game like that before, where you have to pay a monthly fee.  

Hard to say actually.
The big launch rush is over as was to be expected. So there has been quite a drop in active players, but that is no indication of the long time player population.
As for s/s romances. During the guild summit in March they said the s/s romances will come later this year. Though since there has not been another word on the topic since then I am not sure how acurate this still is. 

#18
CuriousArtemis

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Wittand25 wrote...

Hard to say actually.
The big launch rush is over as was to be expected. So there has been quite a drop in active players, but that is no indication of the long time player population.
As for s/s romances. During the guild summit in March they said the s/s romances will come later this year. Though since there has not been another word on the topic since then I am not sure how acurate this still is


Huh! Well I can guess.  They aren't going to do it.  Similar to how they dropped hints about DLC for DA2 and then never delivered.  Not only did they not deliver, but hey wanted for 6 months before just dropping the bomb on us all.  

Okay, making a game and then retroactively adding in s/s romance is bizarre.  It's like suggesting that gay and lesbian people are not normal and have to be "added in later."  That would seriously be like making a video game world populated by white people and promising, don't worry, we will add all the black and brown people later.  WE PROMISE.

#19
Apathy1989

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I can understand the desire for a characters development to extend beyond the conversations with the player, into the main story and influencing it, but that is alot to expect.

I cannot see us getting many characters or romances if this was made the case. Its a good thing to have, but not every characters needs to drive the story so strongly. Sometimes personal development is enough.

#20
Sarcastic Tasha

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I thought Dragon Age and Mass Effect had really interesting characters. The only criticism I really have is that sometimes the friendship arc for a possible LI isn't very fleshed out. So if you don't romance a character you really miss out on a lot.

#21
Ellyria

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motomotogirl wrote...

Wittand25 wrote...

Hard to say actually.
The big launch rush is over as was to be expected. So there has been quite a drop in active players, but that is no indication of the long time player population.
As for s/s romances. During the guild summit in March they said the s/s romances will come later this year. Though since there has not been another word on the topic since then I am not sure how acurate this still is


Huh! Well I can guess.  They aren't going to do it.  Similar to how they dropped hints about DLC for DA2 and then never delivered.  Not only did they not deliver, but hey wanted for 6 months before just dropping the bomb on us all.  

Okay, making a game and then retroactively adding in s/s romance is bizarre.  It's like suggesting that gay and lesbian people are not normal and have to be "added in later."  That would seriously be like making a video game world populated by white people and promising, don't worry, we will add all the black and brown people later.  WE PROMISE.


There's a HUGE thread on the SWTOR forums about SGRs (I think it's been split about 6 times now), where I found this:

Due to the design constraints of a fully voiced MMO of this scale and size, many choices had to be made as to the launch and post-launch feature set. Same gender romances with companion characters in Star Wars: The Old Republic will be a post-launch feature. Because The Old Republic is an MMO, the game will live on through content expansions which allow us to include content and features that could not be included at launch, including the addition of more companion characters who will have additional romance options 


So take that for what you will. Big speculation is that 1.4, which is a story intensive patch and supposed to be released this year, will include SGRs.

List of "splits" from the SGR thread.

#22
CuriousArtemis

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You are a dear for pointing that out, and thought I still disagree with their decision, I understand things a little better now ^^

Maybe when this magical patch comes out I'll have a full-time job and can buy the game, haha xD

#23
PizzaThe Hutt

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In regards to DA, there are plenty of great characters that are not romantic possibilities A few good examples:
The Sten
Varric
Shale
Sandal(ENCHANTMENT!)
Bodahn
Cullen
The first enchanter from DAO(sorry I forgot his name)
etc.

Besides, it isn't like you HAVE to romance a companion in the first place.

#24
EricHVela

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PizzaThe Hutt wrote...

Besides, it isn't like you HAVE to romance a companion in the first place.

Yup. Totally agree.

Like in real life, there can be mixed signals and be a character that might misinterpret an act of kindness as an act of interest (like broShep for Chambers, which is even better because it's the protagonist that misinterpreted [like a dimwit]).

Of course, the usual argument is: "I don't play games for real life." My response to that is: "How often are you getting incorrectly propositioned in real life?"

I have no issue with NPCs making an unexpected assumption towards my protagonists. It has its own challenges for the story-focused players to handle. (Also for crying out loud, it's rated M [USA]. If you leave your kid alone with these games and the child discovers something you didn't intend, it's not the fault of the game that made an attempt to warn you. Expect people to respond with finger-pointing and laughter.)