131 réponses à ce sujet

[Skullheart]

Stop feeding that guy lemon. He doesn't like Miranda, he won't listen to any reason.

[MACharlie1]

o Ventus wrote...

BadExamp1e wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

BadExamp1e wrote...

I know right? She was so popular with everyone. They loved her. She could keep anyone in line.

If you can see Miranda not being in command at all, nor having any special say, but following orders like every other lacky onboard. Also being thrown into the crews quaters with the Alliance grunts. Staying around with people who have said they don't like her, nor trust her. And being trapped in a position where the Alliance and council could have all eyes on her, good for you. But I can't. I can't see her reducing herself to that role.

Where, in any part of my post, did you dig up this crap-heap?

If no one ever says anything to her or about her, how can you just automatically infer they don't like her?

I don't ever talk about a lot of my classmates in school. It doesn't mean I hate their guts and wish for them to die.

From what little she is mentioned, Garrus, Jack and Tali have all said, they dislike her and don't trust her. Basically if you aren't wearing Cerberus colours, and big fake happy face - they don't like her.

Or, y'know, they don't care. It would explain the lack of mention.

Ehrm...actually...all three mentioned their...distrust of Miranda.

We all know Jack. Tali mentions that she didn't like her because she was "so rude". Garrus speaks up if Jack is killed at the pre-Suicide mission convo about how nobody trusts her. It's her character as an Ice Queen - an Ice Queen that is defrosted but still when it comes to work - she's is icy which doesn't rub off well. 

[o Ventus]

BadExamp1e wrote...

From who? Those few -- That's more than enough people on the squad who aren't "pro-Cerberus" for me to believe that she's not popular with those who aren't on the TIM's paylist. They don't follow her, or give to craps about what she's saying really. Trust her judgement? No to that too.

Out of the names you listed, only 2 of them have legitimate reasons for not liking Cerberus (With the reasons themselves being wholly unrelated ot Miranda in every way). Tali makes a couple mentions to the Grayson incident with the flotilla, and Jack obviously has Teltin. Garrus doesn't like her... Just because. Even then, that's 3 (2) people out of a squad of 12, and a crew of at least 17 individuals (Including the squad and Shepard, excluding Miranda). 

They don't follow her? You sure that isn't becuase Shepard is the one in command, and not Miranda? Either way, they seem to follow her just fine if you appoint her to either of the secondary fire teams during the suicide mission.

Modifié par o Ventus, 20 juin 2012 - 05:04 .

[o Ventus]

MACharlie1 wrote...

Ehrm...actually...all three mentioned their...distrust of Miranda.

We all know Jack. Tali mentions that she didn't like her because she was "so rude". Garrus speaks up if Jack is killed at the pre-Suicide mission convo about how nobody trusts her. It's her character as an Ice Queen - an Ice Queen that is defrosted but still when it comes to work - she's is icy which doesn't rub off well. 

I wasn't talking about Tali or Garrus.

[dtrain24]

o Ventus wrote...

MACharlie1 wrote...

Ehrm...actually...all three mentioned their...distrust of Miranda.

We all know Jack. Tali mentions that she didn't like her because she was "so rude". Garrus speaks up if Jack is killed at the pre-Suicide mission convo about how nobody trusts her. It's her character as an Ice Queen - an Ice Queen that is defrosted but still when it comes to work - she's is icy which doesn't rub off well. 

I wasn't talking about Tali or Garrus.

Well in that case, Tali has a pretty childish reason not to like her, because have they ever even spoken to each other?
Jack, it's understandable...the two just hate each other.
As for Garrus, I guess they needed someone to take Jack's spot if she died. Garrus doesn't really have a lot of trust for anyone, though.

[o Ventus]

dtrain24 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

MACharlie1 wrote...

Ehrm...actually...all three mentioned their...distrust of Miranda.

We all know Jack. Tali mentions that she didn't like her because she was "so rude". Garrus speaks up if Jack is killed at the pre-Suicide mission convo about how nobody trusts her. It's her character as an Ice Queen - an Ice Queen that is defrosted but still when it comes to work - she's is icy which doesn't rub off well. 

I wasn't talking about Tali or Garrus.

Well in that case, Tali has a pretty childish reason not to like her, because have they ever even spoken to each other?
Jack, it's understandable...the two just hate each other.
As for Garrus, I guess they needed someone to take Jack's spot if she died. Garrus doesn't really have a lot of trust for anyone, though.

Tali's dislike of Miranda I understand though, due to her association with Cerberus. Like I posted before, Tali makes a couple mentions of the Grayson incident with the flotilla. Granted, I don't know why Tali doesn't hate Gardner, Ken, Gabby, or Kelly either due to the same association.

I didn't even know Garrus had an inherent distaste for Miranda until I learned of that quote. I have never had Jack die in any of my games. Would that mean Jack living = Garrus doesn't hate Miranda?

[BadExamp1e]

o Ventus wrote...

BadExamp1e wrote...

From who? Those few -- That's more than enough people on the squad who aren't "pro-Cerberus" for me to believe that she's not popular with those who aren't on the TIM's paylist. They don't follow her, or give to craps about what she's saying really. Trust her judgement? No to that too.

Out of the names you listed, only 2 of them have legitimate reasons for not liking Cerberus (With the reasons themselves being wholly unrelated ot Miranda in every way). Tali makes a couple mentions to the Grayson incident with the flotilla, and Jack obviously has Teltin. Garrus doesn't like her... Just because. Even then, that's 3 (2) people out of a squad of 12, and a crew of at least 17 individuals (Including the squad and Shepard). 

They don't follow her? You sure that isn't becuase Shepard is the one in command, and not Miranda? Either way, they seem to follow her just fine if you appoint her to either of the secondary fire teams during the suicide mission.

They follow her just fine, because it's Shepard's word at the end of the day. He gave the order.

Obviously it would get repetitive if it was brought up every second in a video game otherwise it would quickly become annoying and boring. Still... Miranda is disliked and untrusted more than any other... so yeah. Says it pretty plainly to me. The non-Cerberus crew have problem with her. Some don't listen, and some don't trust her judgement.

[dtrain24]

o Ventus wrote...

dtrain24 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

MACharlie1 wrote...

Ehrm...actually...all three mentioned their...distrust of Miranda.

We all know Jack. Tali mentions that she didn't like her because she was "so rude". Garrus speaks up if Jack is killed at the pre-Suicide mission convo about how nobody trusts her. It's her character as an Ice Queen - an Ice Queen that is defrosted but still when it comes to work - she's is icy which doesn't rub off well. 

I wasn't talking about Tali or Garrus.

Well in that case, Tali has a pretty childish reason not to like her, because have they ever even spoken to each other?
Jack, it's understandable...the two just hate each other.
As for Garrus, I guess they needed someone to take Jack's spot if she died. Garrus doesn't really have a lot of trust for anyone, though.

Tali's dislike of Miranda I understand though, due to her association with Cerberus. Like I posted before, Tali makes a couple mentions of the Grayson incident with the flotilla. Granted, I don't know why Tali doesn't hate Gardner, Ken, Gabby, or Kelly either due to the same association.

I didn't even know Garrus had an inherent distaste for Miranda until I learned of that quote. I have never had Jack die in any of my games. Would that mean Jack living = Garrus doesn't hate Miranda?

Perhaps. As I said, it was probably just filler...they needed someone to say it I guess, sadly. But Garrus doesn't trust that many people. Just because he doesn't trust her doesn't exactly mean he doesn't like her. Some Shepards found it hard to trust their romanced Miranda's at the Alliance resource scene, but that didn't mean he didn't love her (Though it ended up costing Miranda her life, wonder how it makes you feel, Shepard.)

[o Ventus]

BadExamp1e wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

BadExamp1e wrote...

From who? Those few -- That's more than enough people on the squad who aren't "pro-Cerberus" for me to believe that she's not popular with those who aren't on the TIM's paylist. They don't follow her, or give to craps about what she's saying really. Trust her judgement? No to that too.

Out of the names you listed, only 2 of them have legitimate reasons for not liking Cerberus (With the reasons themselves being wholly unrelated ot Miranda in every way). Tali makes a couple mentions to the Grayson incident with the flotilla, and Jack obviously has Teltin. Garrus doesn't like her... Just because. Even then, that's 3 (2) people out of a squad of 12, and a crew of at least 17 individuals (Including the squad and Shepard). 

They don't follow her? You sure that isn't becuase Shepard is the one in command, and not Miranda? Either way, they seem to follow her just fine if you appoint her to either of the secondary fire teams during the suicide mission.

They follow her just fine, because it's Shepard's word at the end of the day. He gave the order.

Obviously it would get repetitive if it was brought up every second in a video game otherwise it would quickly become annoying and boring. Still... Miranda is disliked and untrusted more than any other... so yeah. Says it pretty plainly to me. The non-Cerberus crew have problem with her. Some don't listen, and some don't trust her judgement.

No s**t it's because Shepard gave the order. Like I said, he's the one in command. It isn't like Miranda led them to die or become captured. When does someone not listen to her? Last I checked, she has command in a maximum of 2 places in this game (2nd fire teams), and nobody ever disobeyed anything she said (What little Shepard hears anyway)

2 people disliking someone doesn't even remotely make Miranda "disliked and mistrusted more than anyone else". Do you know what statistics are?

Thane doesn't have a problem with her. Samara even respects her. Legion is quiet. Zaeed is quiet. Kasumi doesn't say anything either way, but one can infer she is okay with Miranda being around, going by her dialogue to Shepard about Miranda. Morinth is quiet. Grunt is quiet. Mordin is quiet.

Literally, only 2 people are canonized into disliking Miranda, and even then, 1 of those 2 begins to warm up to her and no longer dislikes her.

[BadExamp1e]

Calm down, bro.

Yeah, Miranda's SIC. But basically the non-cerberus crew tell her to shove it when she tries to pull that card.

Doesn't prove anything. Nobody disliked or mistrusted anybody in that situation. Again, they trust Shepard's judgement. He made the call, they'll follow it.

Garrus is canonized too. Depends how you look at it. It would make sense for Garrus not to trust Miranda and Cerberus considering he used to be a dutiful c-sec officer who knows what kind of organization they are. He's experienced first hand how Cerberus plays in ME1. Please give the ME2 writers a little more credit.

Mordin specifically says, "Watch out for bugs." That’s seems a little untrusting to me.

Morinth is quiet. Do people actually save her? Does she have much to say about ANYTHING?
Zaeed? DLC.
Grunt? Krogan who doesn't care so long as he gets to fight.
Thane? Works for Shepard. Doesn't mention any dislike to anybody. That's just who he is.

Considering... There's enough evidence there that suggests Miranda has a problem with the non-cerberus crew. They don't trust her, or like her personally. Respect is different. Like people respect an enemy.

Modifié par BadExamp1e, 20 juin 2012 - 05:49 .

[o Ventus]

BadExamp1e wrote...

Calm down, bro.

Yeah, Miranda's SIC. But basically the non-cerberus crew tell her to shove it when she tries to pull that card.

Doesn't prove anything. Nobody disliked or mistrusted anybody in that situation. Again, they trust Shepard's judgement. He made the call, they'll follow it.

Garrus is canonized too. Depends how you look at it. It would make sense for Garrus not to trust Miranda and Cerberus considering he used to be a dutiful c-sec officer who knows what kind of organization they are. He's experienced first hand how Cerberus plays in ME1. Please give the ME2 writers a little more credit.

Mordin specifically says, "Watch out for bugs." That’s seems a little untrusting to me.

Morinth is quiet. Do people actually save her? Does she have much to say about ANYTHING?
Zaeed? DLC.
Grunt? Krogan who doesn't care so long as he gets to fight.
Thane? Works for Shepard. Doesn't mention any dislike to anybody. That's just who he is.

Considering... There's enough evidence there that suggests Miranda has a problem with the non-cerberus crew. They don't trust her, or like her personally. Respect is different. Like people respect an enemy.

If you have to put "depends on how you look at it", then it means Garrus isn't canonized. Mordin says "Cerberus could have bugs anywhere", how does that sound as if he doesn't like Miranda?

Zaeed being DLC has nothing to do with it. Kasumi is DLC and she mentions Miranda. She mentions everybody on the ship. Your other reasons don't exist. Thane can be under Shepard's employ and still have an opinion. Grunt can be a bloodthirsty warmonger and still have an opinion.

Again, Garrus' distaste of Miranda (or even Cerberus, for that matter) is not set in stone. He only disses Miranda if Jack is dead. Similarly, how can he have a preformed opinion on Cerberus if you haven't done their side missions in ME1, like me?

You're really going to say Miranda has a problem with the non-Cerberus crew? That's why the only person she makes any apparent disliking of is Jack, right? Because she loathes everyone who isn't Cerberus. That's why she respects (and can fall in love with) Shepard. Gotcha.

For the last time. 2 people out of a crew of 17 doesn't mean the crew doesn't like her. It means 2 people out of 17 don't like her. Please, provide concrete evidence and stop pulling "facts" out of your ass.

1 last thing. "Liking" someone and "respecting" someone aren't mutually exclusive. It's entirely possible to do both at the same time. Have you ever been in a relationship with someone else?

[BadExamp1e]

Garrus is canonized. He still says it doesn't he, if Jack is dead? Even during that scene with Jack alive, Garrus nods his head in agreement with Jack.

Mordin's dialogue is related to Miranda because you've got to be starting a relationship with her.

"Respect" and "liking" are too different things. Example, Tali says she hates her, but respects her. I would respect my enemy. Or someone I dislike, since they provoke that strong reaction in me.

Point still stands, people clearly have problems with her, don't trust her, or like her personally. Jack, Tali, Garrus... and Mordin? I consider that a lot, since it's more than any other. No other character seems to have a "distrust" club like Miranda on the Cerberus Normandy. Evidence enough for me.

I think you should stop now before you bust a blood vessel over this (lul)

Modifié par BadExamp1e, 20 juin 2012 - 06:14 .

[o Ventus]

BadExamp1e wrote...

Garrus is canonized. He still says it doesn't he, if Jack is dead? Even during that scene with Jack alive, Garrus nods his head in agreement with Jack.

Mordin's dialogue is related to Miranda because you've got to be starting a relationship with her.

"Respect" and "liking" are too different things. Example, Tali says she hates her, but respects her. I would respect my enemy. Or someone I dislike, since they provoke that strong reaction in me.

Point still stands, people clearly have problems with her, don't trust her, or like her personally. Jack, Tali, Garrus... and Mordin? I consider that a lot, since it's more than any other. No other character seems to have a "distrust" club like Miranda on the Cerberus Normandy. Evidence enough for me.

I think you should stop now before you bust a blood vessel over this (lul)

I didn't say respect and liking are the same. I said they aren't mutually exclusive. Try reading.

Mordin says, again, "Cerberus could have bugs anywhere". This doesn't mean or imply that he dislikes Miranda. Nor does it imply "Miranda may have bugs on her".

And Garrus doesn't nod with Jack if she's alive. He just stands there idly.

You'll also notice Tali ceases to hate Miranda after Sanctuary, so that reduces the number of people who canon dislike her from 2, to 1. Amazing case you're making, isn't it?

@bold- because it doesn't exist, right?

[BadExamp1e]

"Cerberus could have bugs anywhere" which is only brought up if you're starting a relationship with Miranda. What are you trying to say, Mordin? You think he would mention this if Shepard *wasn't* in a relationship with Miranda? Oh, yeah. That's right he doesn't.

Garrus looks like he's agreeing all the same.

Tali still dislikes her. Obvious is obvious.

Evidence does exist. Tali, Jack and Garrus CAN all openly say they either dislike her or don't trust her... and in Mordin's case hints at it. It's there, it's in the game.

Modifié par BadExamp1e, 20 juin 2012 - 06:28 .

[o Ventus]

BadExamp1e wrote...

"Cerberus could have bugs anywhere" which is only brought up if you're starting a relationship with Miranda. What are you trying to say, Mordin? You think he would mention this if Shepard *wasn't* in a relationship with Miranda? Oh, yeah. That's right he doesn't.

Garrus looks like he's agreeing all the same.

Tali still dislikes her. Obvious is obvious.

Evidence does exist. Tali, Jack and Garrus CAN all openly say they either dislike her or don't trust her... and in Mordin's case hints at it. It's there, it's in the game.

It. Still. Doesn't. Mean. Anything.

I won't even bother addressing this weak-ass "point" of yours. 

Obvious is not obvious. 1, Tali is drunk. 2, The back and forth between Tali and Shepard isn't a serious conversation.

Tali and Jack are the only ones who make it known that they dislike Miranda. Garrus only says something if Jack dies, and Mordin's dialogue isn't a put-down to Miranda. If Jack survives, Garrus doesn't say anything. The silence can be taken to mean quite literally anything. Tali warms up to Miranda following Sanctuary. Again, the tally drops from 2, to 1.

Jack and Tali not liking Miranda =/= A majority of characters don't like Miranda. There is no evidence.

[Siansonea]

almondroy wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

almondroy wrote...

I could see Kaiden/Tali and Garrus/Miranda pairings a lot more easily than Kaiden/Miranda and Garrus/Tali (the one actual canon pairing in this whole mess)

So, you could see two humans hooking up with dextro aliens (whose secretions would be poisonous to each other) as more likely than two humans hooking up? Or two dextro aliens hooking up? Srsly? Methinks someone might be xenophilic himself...

From a personality standpoint, absolutely. Tali's interest in Shep is total hero-worship, and blander-than-toast Kaidan would fit her idealized image of Shepard far more easily than a Shep with any significant Renegade point buildup. Meanwhile, Garrus and Miranda both have those struggle-to-meet-Daddy's-expectations-even-though-they-say-the-expectations-don't-matter and going-outside-of-law-to-do-what-they-think-is-right things happening. I see Miranda respecting competence, and IMHO Garrus trumps Kaiden there.

Yeah, you do bring up the physical difficulties, but they have a Scientist Salarian to help them work all that out

Tali likes the bad boys, and Kaidan is NOT a bad boy. And even if she was, Kaidan isn't into aliens, not even asari (he says as much about Liara in ME1).

Garrus and Miranda? Since when do people fall in love with people who are just like themselves?

[BadExamp1e]

I'm not repeating myself. Again, evidence does exist. Tali, Jack and Garrus CAN all openly say they either dislike her or don't trust her... and in Mordin's case hints at it. It's there, it's in the game.

It can happen. It does happen. Deal with it.

[Siansonea]

Ryzaki wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

I didn't realize this thread had devolved into a discussion about Kaidan and Miranda as a romantic pair. I think it's feasible. They're both biotics, Miranda is only a year older than Kaidan, and they both have perfectionist tendencies. They have an ideological impasse, he is very Paragon and she is rather Renegade, but all relationships need spice. I think they would be a good pairing, much better than, say, Tali and Garrus or Joker and his sex robot. Seriously, what was up with that?

Anything is a better pairing than Joker and the Sexbot. <_<

I don't see Kaidan and Miranda at all though. Kaidan's too paragon and he lacks Shep's charisma and past with Miranda. Miranda's too renegade for Kaidan and wouldn't open up to him the way she does Shepard.

I just don't see it working on either end.

See, I think that once Kaidan is a Spectre (and therefore no longer strictly Alliance), he'd have to understand that he will need to "color outside the lines" a bit, and not be quite such a stiff-necked Paragon. You know, like during the face-off on the Citadel between his duty to the Council and Shepard, who is asking Kaidan to trust in their shared past. By-the-book ME1 Kaidan wouldn't have been talked out of that situation, he would have to be put down. But ME3 Kaidan trusts his friend Shepard, and colors outside the lines.

Kaidan and Miranda are both competitive, I have a feeling that if a romance did start between them, it would start out as a competition and an argument about whose philosophy is right. Miranda is no longer with Cerberus, so that stumbling block is removed, and Kaidan is technically no longer with the Alliance, so that stumbling block is removed. He's a Spectre, and she's an independent agent—just the sort of person a Spectre cultivates as a source of intel and backup.

They have a shared history through Shepard, and through biotics. Heck, she might have even been one of Kaidan's classmates at BAaT, a fact that maybe they both realize and never addressed. Or maybe she was privately tutored by asari on Henry Lawson's dime when she was younger. In any case, they have a lot of common ground, and they're both closer to the center of the Paragon/Renegade axis than either of them thinks.

One thing about Miranda is that she's sneaky, and she'll dig up everything there is to know about Kaidan on her own, and she'll find no real dirt on him other than the incident with Vyrrnus. Kaidan probably would do some digging about her too, and would discover that underneath that icy exterior is a woman who would do anything to protect what little real family she has. 

I don't think it's 100% the most likely pairing of all the squaddies, but I don't think it's too farfetched either. Personally, I would have loved to have seen Jack and Joker get together. That would have been far more interesting than the sex robot commercial we got. Seriously, some writer has a gynoid fetish, and it's kind of sickening.

[Skullheart]

You know, the arguments from both of you just are too subjective. Because at the end everything is reduced to how you roleplay your own Shepard,ot how you fill upthe thing with your own headcanon.

Regarding my headcanon, Miranda relationship with the crew is:

And about Mordin, you can sense that he have a friendly working relationship with Miranda. Miranda enjoys working with Mordin (people as smart as her), and Mordin refers to Miranda with her first name. If he dislikes her he would call her Lawson, not Miranda.

Another character who coments about Miranda is Samara, and she has good thoughts about her.

Edit:

And regarding shiping, Kaidan and Miranda could be a good pair, if Kaidan stops being an Alliance boy. But I have to say that I like more a Jack/Kaidan pairing. Both of them aremore alike (baat and Teltin).

Modifié par Skullheart, 20 juin 2012 - 07:09 .

[Fidget6]

I agree about Liara. The writers can't seem to make up their minds which direction they want to go with her.

[wright1978]

BadExamp1e wrote...
snip

Mordin specifically says, "Watch out for bugs." That’s seems a little untrusting to me.

snip

Considering... There's enough evidence there that suggests Miranda has a problem with the non-cerberus crew. They don't trust her, or like her personally. Respect is different. Like people respect an enemy.

I think you are taking Mordin's words out of the context of the scene.
I fully accept Tali and Garrus are very distrustful of Cerberus and Miranda because of her Cerberus seniority. However i don't think that's any different to Alliance soldiers in ME1 having distrust of lettign Aliens on board.

[BadExamp1e]

wright1978 wrote...

BadExamp1e wrote...
snip

Mordin specifically says, "Watch out for bugs." That’s seems a little untrusting to me.

snip

Considering... There's enough evidence there that suggests Miranda has a problem with the non-cerberus crew. They don't trust her, or like her personally. Respect is different. Like people respect an enemy.

I think you are taking Mordin's words out of the context of the scene.
I fully accept Tali and Garrus are very distrustful of Cerberus and Miranda because of her Cerberus seniority. However i don't think that's any different to Alliance soldiers in ME1 having distrust of lettign Aliens on board.

Maybe. Mordin's a smart guy, good with his words, and there's a reason why he said it.

Well, at least you accept it when you see it with your own eyes. Garrus, Tali and Jack are the ones who openly state their distrust and dislike for Miranda. Fair enough, Mordin we can't be sure, I accept that. Seemed a little mistrusting to say to me, but that's JMO. Of course, Mordin doesn't make a big deal about these things, unlike the rest.

[nos_astra]

Frozen83 wrote...
Maybe. But she would be perfect for Kaidan. An some ****ing with Ahs would be also nice... I don't care about Alliance. I want my Miranda on ME3 crew! M.

Yeah, she and Kaidan would have had an interesting dynamic.

Siansonea II wrote...
Kaidan and Miranda are both competitive, I have a feeling that if a romance did start between them, it would start out as a competition and an argument about whose philosophy is right. Miranda is no longer with Cerberus, so that stumbling block is removed, and Kaidan is technically no longer with the Alliance, so that stumbling block is removed. He's a Spectre, and she's an independent agent—just the sort of person a Spectre cultivates as a source of intel and backup.

It would be like pulling teeth but eventually they might come around. Somehow I picture Kaidan as immune to Miranda's charms ... and Miranda pissed off because she's used to have people dancing to her tune, especially guys like Kaidan.

It would be highly amusing to watch.

Modifié par klarabella, 20 juin 2012 - 01:46 .

[Sarcastic Tasha]

I never got the impression Mordin disliked Miranda o_O he didn't seem bothered about the cerberus bugs, didn't he even mention that he gave the expensive one back the Miranda? Mordin and Miranda are quite alike really.

[MACharlie1]

I agree that Mordin and Miranda probably have some sort of mutual respect - perhaps Miranda is more aware of hers towards the great Dr. Solus. And recall the bugs again when he first comes aboard:

"Returned expensive ones to Miranda."

To me that says he doesn't like the bugs but respects Miranda enough to give them back.

EDIT: Ninjaed. 

Modifié par MACharlie1, 20 juin 2012 - 02:06 .