724 réponses à ce sujet

[Drummernate]

GodlessPaladin wrote...



Patch Suggestions:  Suggestions that (I think) can't be changed through ini file edits.  I don't want to focus on these, but I felt they were worth mentioning anyways.

Console players should have a similar capability for reload cancelling as PC players.  In fact, forget medigel cancelling and just let players cancel (or fail to do so with bad timing, of course) with the reload button.

Meh...

This isn't Gears of War.

It is already easy enough to do it, why just add something else to a button?

Will (X) become to new (A)?

[Grunt_Platform]

Geth Pulse Rifle vs. Phaeston DPS assuming the proposed change. Using Grimy Bunyip's DPS calculations:

GPR has a mean DPS of 358.81, 441.23 with reload canceling, and a burst of 548.57. Against armor it's 47.71, 58.67, and 72.95 respectively.

Phaeston has a mean DPS of 365.03, 411.75 with reload canceling, and a burst of 462.14. Damage against armor is 38.34, 43.25 and 48.54 respectively.

For comparison, Carnifex has a mean DPS of 379.93, and a mean DPS of 324.88 versus armor. .. which means it still has a better DPS than both rifles.

[Edit] For these two guns, that's probably OK since the GPR and the Phaeston both have very good accuracy and little recoil, and punish missed shots a lot less than the Carnifex does. Also, on a Geth Engineer the Pulse Rifle becomes a better damage option. Which is pretty much how it's supposed to work.

[Edit for clarity:] The Carnifex has lower burst and reload cancelling DPS than either gun. Slap a magazine upgrade on the rifles and you shouldn't even need reload canceling. The 'Fex is more just to show a readonable baseline DPS for low-weight weapons.

Modifié par EvanKester, 21 juin 2012 - 05:01 .

[GodlessPaladin]

EvanKester wrote...
For comparison, Carnifex has a mean DPS of 379.93, and a mean DPS of 324.88 versus armor. .. which means it still has a better DPS than both rifles.

The new GPR would have very slightly better DPS if you reload cancel, and the DPS vs armor is helped out by various damage bonuses.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 21 juin 2012 - 02:48 .

[Baine10]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

EvanKester wrote...

...I think I missed the part where it was decided "logically refuting an argument" was "using facts to insult people." I hope that was a joke.
If you say the math backs your argument, and you don't provide math, nobody's insulting you by actually using the math and proving you wrong.

  This.

There you go again. Realize what you are doing.

Anyhow it's time to be constructive. Your tactical cloak has typos. Evolution 1 and evolution 2. I realize you're talking about evolutions 4 and 5, as the last one is 6. Also on Reave, incinerate, carnage, warp,rage. Typos make the understanding of the post inconsistent.

I suggest buffing warp's evolution 5 to make it AoE over 1.5 metres, taking away the damage bonus. This makes it an incentive over the expose, which everyone who uses detonations use.
 

[GodlessPaladin]

Baine10 wrote...
Anyhow it's time to be constructive. Your tactical cloak has typos. Evolution 1 and evolution 2. I realize you're talking about evolutions 4 and 5, as the last one is 6. Also on Reave, incinerate, carnage, warp,rage. Typos make the understanding of the post inconsistent.

  Incorrect.  It's the same notation Eric Fagnan uses.  As noted in the FAQ on page 1, Rank 4 top option is "Evolution 1," Rank 4 bottom option is "Evolution 2," et cetera.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 21 juin 2012 - 03:03 .

[Grunt_Platform]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

EvanKester wrote...
For comparison, Carnifex has a mean DPS of 379.93, and a mean DPS of 324.88 versus armor. .. which means it still has a better DPS than both rifles.

The new GPR would have very slightly better DPS if you reload cancel, and the DPS vs armor is helped out by various damage bonuses.

Whups! My bad, you're right. Plus I didn't take into account the benefits of the magazine mod.

I deliberately didn't account for equipment since that complicates a simple comparison (only mentioned Carnifex for a baseline), and since the Phaeston and the GPR are both assault rifles with large magazines and good accuracy, they tend to benefit the same amount from most consumables, passives and mods.

Phaeston might need some small buffs when it's time to look at uncommons, but right now they all look good to me.

Modifié par EvanKester, 21 juin 2012 - 02:58 .

[GaryMaple]

The Incisor needs FAR more than what has been given to it. Either a slightly tighter grouping, or increased non-scoped damage would be good starters.

[Metal Vile]

EvanKester wrote...

Geth Pulse Rifle vs. Phaeston DPS assuming the proposed change. Using Grimy Bunyip's DPS calculations:

GPR has a mean DPS of 358.81, 441.23 with reload canceling, and a burst of 548.57. Against armor it's 47.71, 58.67, and 72.95 respectively.

Phaeston has a mean DPS of 365.03, 411.75 with reload canceling, and a burst of 462.14. Damage against armor is 38.34, 43.25 and 48.54 respectively.

For comparison, Carnifex has a mean DPS of 379.93, and a mean DPS of 324.88 versus armor. .. which means it still has a better DPS than both rifles.

(Edit) For these two guns, that's probably OK since the GPR and the Phaeston both have very good accuracy and little recoil, and punish missed shots a lot less than the Carnifex does. Also, on a Geth Engineer the Pulse Rifle becomes a better damage option. Which is pretty much how it's supposed to work.

The "Burst DPS" is calculated with what, firing a single clip at the enemy without accouting for reload?

Interesting that the change puts the GPR ahead of the Phaeston, even against armor.  Granted, reload cancelling is big for the GPR, as it's saddled with the long ass Revenant/Saber reload window.  And as you said, gets even better on the Geth Engineer.

BTW, you guys never really answered my question about whether you feel weapon rarity should lend itself inherently to relative weapon quality.  As it stands now, it SEEMS to be at least partially the case  (not for you guys in particular, but the game as designed by BW). 

[Grunt_Platform]

Metal Vile wrote...

EvanKester wrote...
[Blah blah maths...]

The "Burst DPS" is calculated with what, firing a single clip at the enemy without accouting for reload?

Interesting that the change puts the GPR ahead of the Phaeston, even against armor.  Granted, reload cancelling is big for the GPR, as it's saddled with the long ass Revenant/Saber reload window.  And as you said, gets even better on the Geth Engineer.

BTW, you guys never really answered my question about whether you feel weapon rarity should lend itself inherently to relative weapon quality.  As it stands now, it SEEMS to be at least partially the case  (not for you guys in particular, but the game as designed by BW). 

Yeah, burst DPS assumes you don't have to stop to reload.

I can't speak for GodlessPaladin and others, but it's my understanding that weapons are primarily compared against similar weapons of the same rarity. Since Ultra-Rare and Rare weapons are being balanced first, underpowered rares will probably briefly pull ahead of similar Uncommons and Commons briefly. This probably just means those uncommons and commons will get buffs later.

And yeah, the game as it stands currently favors some rare weapons. This has as much to do with those weapons being speicalized in things the game rewards more as it does with their actual relative power level. For example, the Revenant's niche of rapidly staggering large groups of weaker enemies doesn't help so much on Gold.

Modifié par EvanKester, 21 juin 2012 - 04:51 .

[capn233]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Not according to Grimy's sheet, which is supposed to account for human refire error and gives me ~524 for the Carnifex single clip damage and ~548 for the boosted GPR.  What formula are you using?

I wasn't taking that into account at all.  I just calculated max theoretical for each based on damage and ROF, single thermal clip (which is how it was calc'd on the weapon spreadsheet I have bookmarked, which is why I did it that way).  That is why I asked what you had used.  I was just curious.

I see that grimy put in a 0.04s per click refire delay.  That's interesting.  In any event it isn't a big deal and in fact it makes sense that AR's should get better DPS, and heavy pistols would deliver a larger quanta of damage each click.

[capn233]

EvanKester wrote...

Yeah, burst DPS assumes you don't have to stop to reload.

I don't think that grimy is actually calculating it that way.  I think he is actually including one reload cycle in the calculation of burst.  Otherwise you should just be able to take the Damage x ROF and get a burst per thermal clip.  In that case you would end up with the numbers I posted.  Unless I have the ROF wrong (from a sheet I have bookmarked, tangsters maybe?)

37.6 x 900 / 60 = 564

[Grunt_Platform]

capn233 wrote...

EvanKester wrote...

Yeah, burst DPS assumes you don't have to stop to reload.

I don't think that grimy is actually calculating it that way.  I think he is actually including one reload cycle in the calculation of burst.  Otherwise you should just be able to take the Damage x ROF and get a burst per thermal clip.  In that case you would end up with the numbers I posted.  Unless I have the ROF wrong (from a sheet I have bookmarked, tangsters maybe?)

37.6 x 900 / 60 = 564

Actually, I did check out how his formulas worked (I even made my own copy of the sheet with the values neatly labeled to be human readable, it's: "Damage * Magazine/(FiringTime+CycleLoss+RampUpLoss)"). His FiringTime calculations take into account human clicking speed, etc. Reloads aren't factored in, but magazine size is.

The numbers are lower just because they're adjusted for ramp up, clicking speed, etc. 

Modifié par EvanKester, 21 juin 2012 - 05:36 .

[Rokayt]

I dig this thread, but we obviously have not balanced all the things: The Scimitar is the Raptor of shotguns. It needs some serious love to get off the ground as it is.

[Atheosis]

capn233 wrote...

EvanKester wrote...

Yeah, burst DPS assumes you don't have to stop to reload.

I don't think that grimy is actually calculating it that way.  I think he is actually including one reload cycle in the calculation of burst.  Otherwise you should just be able to take the Damage x ROF and get a burst per thermal clip.  In that case you would end up with the numbers I posted.  Unless I have the ROF wrong (from a sheet I have bookmarked, tangsters maybe?)

37.6 x 900 / 60 = 564

GodlessPaladin and I have differing opinions on Grimy's sheet.  He seems to love it, while I don't have any use for it.  I prefer simply looking at burst DPS, as reloading is generally done when you are in cover anyway.  With low capacity weapons it matters I suppose, but factoring reload times into the real life DPS of all weapons doesn't seem to hold much water from my perspective. 

Modifié par Atheosis, 21 juin 2012 - 06:04 .

[GaryMaple]

Rokayt wrote...

I dig this thread, but we obviously have not balanced all the things: The Scimitar is the Raptor of shotguns. It needs some serious love to get off the ground as it is.

There's no way that the Raptor can be less loved than the Incisor, arguably the single worst gun in the entire game.

[Atheosis]

EvanKester wrote...

capn233 wrote...

EvanKester wrote...

Yeah, burst DPS assumes you don't have to stop to reload.

I don't think that grimy is actually calculating it that way.  I think he is actually including one reload cycle in the calculation of burst.  Otherwise you should just be able to take the Damage x ROF and get a burst per thermal clip.  In that case you would end up with the numbers I posted.  Unless I have the ROF wrong (from a sheet I have bookmarked, tangsters maybe?)

37.6 x 900 / 60 = 564

Actually, I did check out how his formulas worked (I even made my own copy of the sheet with the values neatly labeled to be human readable, it's: "Damage * Magazine/(FiringTime+CycleLoss+RampUpLoss)"). His FiringTime calculations take into account human clicking speed, etc. Reloads aren't factored in, but magazine size is.

The numbers are lower just because they're adjusted for ramp up, clicking speed, etc. 

Magazine size being factored in can be misleading as well.  I mean who unloads an entire magazine in one go with most weapons, especially the high RoF/high capacity weapons?

[Grunt_Platform]

Atheosis wrote...

EvanKester wrote...

capn233 wrote...

EvanKester wrote...

Yeah, burst DPS assumes you don't have to stop to reload.

I don't think that grimy is actually calculating it that way.  I think he is actually including one reload cycle in the calculation of burst.  Otherwise you should just be able to take the Damage x ROF and get a burst per thermal clip.  In that case you would end up with the numbers I posted.  Unless I have the ROF wrong (from a sheet I have bookmarked, tangsters maybe?)

37.6 x 900 / 60 = 564

Actually, I did check out how his formulas worked (I even made my own copy of the sheet with the values neatly labeled to be human readable, it's: "Damage * Magazine/(FiringTime+CycleLoss+RampUpLoss)"). His FiringTime calculations take into account human clicking speed, etc. Reloads aren't factored in, but magazine size is.

The numbers are lower just because they're adjusted for ramp up, clicking speed, etc. 

Magazine size being factored in can be misleading as well.  I mean who unloads an entire magazine in one go with most weapons, especially the high RoF/high capacity weapons?

EDIT: Just checked the script. Yes, Magazine Size is factored into the calculation of firing time, so Grimy Bunyip is just countering that.

Modifié par EvanKester, 21 juin 2012 - 06:09 .

[capn233]

EvanKester wrote...

EDIT: Just checked the script. Yes, Magazine Size is factored into the calculation of firing time, so Grimy Bunyip is just countering that.

Ok I guess I didn't look at it well enough.

The "Burst Loss" is being factored in for the burst on the GPR apparently, which is explained as "time wasted per reload cycle."  Setting it to 0 gave me 564.4 which is basically what you get if you do it my extremely simple way.  I think this is pretty interesting in that the Burst DPS is not otherwise reload speed dependent (you can see that by adjusting Reload Animation Cancel from True to False and verifying that there is no change).  I don't know what his rationale is for adding on the reload error time for Burst.

This might be getting too off topic, I don't know.  In any event, you could imagine a balance regime where nearly all AR's did better paper DPS than the pistols and still have balance as out of cover time and shots to kill are going to be different.  Short answer is there is probably even more headroom to increase GPR DPS than just the 25%, but the above changes are certainly better than how the weapon is currently.

[Rokayt]

GaryMaple wrote...

Rokayt wrote...

I dig this thread, but we obviously have not balanced all the things: The Scimitar is the Raptor of shotguns. It needs some serious love to get off the ground as it is.

There's no way that the Raptor can be less loved than the Incisor, arguably the single worst gun in the entire game.

The Incisor is the blatantly obvious posterchild of underpowered.

I am promoting the less unfortunate, as few preach their ways.

[Grunt_Platform]

capn233 wrote...
This might be getting too off topic, I don't know.  In any event, you could imagine a balance regime where nearly all AR's did better paper DPS than the pistols and still have balance as out of cover time and shots to kill are going to be different.  Short answer is there is probably even more headroom to increase GPR DPS than just the 25%, but the above changes are certainly better than how the weapon is currently.

Yeah, getting off topic a bit. I'll let Grimy Bunyip handle the DPS formulas, I'm just trusting his judgment and using them. 

Anyway, agreed. The Cerberus Harrier is actually a wonderful example of this. On paper it's got better DPS than the fricken' Claymore. In actual practice, you'll rarely see all of that.

I feel like every assault rifle should be balanced like that, adjusted for accuracy and recoil, especially since most of them need to be fired in controlled bursts to actually stay on target. So the Revenant should be doing some pretty monstrous damage at point blank range, or with sufficient accuracy boosts. If a gun has other significant advantages, it can afford to take a hit to its DPS (so.. the Revenant, again, with its staggering effect and huge magazine size doesn't need to do quite as much damage as its weight, terribad accuracy & recoil, and slowdown when firing all suggest).

All that said, I think the GPR is fine with a 25% boost. yeah there's a little more wiggle room there, but this is a light-weight gun with near perfect accuracy, an amazing fire rate and no practical recoil to speak of.

Modifié par EvanKester, 21 juin 2012 - 03:47 .

[GodlessPaladin]

The whole conversation about burst... I don't think I know of a current sheet that has burst DPS compared over a similar period of firing time (I think Tangster's is "single clip DPS." We might want to look at something like "damage over one second" or something). Maybe I should add a column for that (and some other notable scenarios) to my version of the weapon sheet. Then again I'm not exactly sure how to factor in Grimy's accounting for human error in there. Hmmm.

EvanKester wrote...
Anyway, agreed. The Cerberus Harrier is actually a wonderful example of this. On paper it's got better DPS than
the fricken' Claymore. In actual practice, you'll rarely see all of that.

  Right.  There are a lot of advantages to having similar DPS over a slower firing time.  For example, with the Wraith you can easily intersperse powers between its shots without losing any of its DPS, whereas with a weapon like the Revenant just about every non-shooting action you do is cutting into your potential weapon damage.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 21 juin 2012 - 01:08 .

[GodlessPaladin]

BTW, just added Rebellion characters to this sheet:

docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 21 juin 2012 - 01:47 .

[Atheosis]

GaryMaple wrote...

Rokayt wrote...

I dig this thread, but we obviously have not balanced all the things: The Scimitar is the Raptor of shotguns. It needs some serious love to get off the ground as it is.

There's no way that the Raptor can be less loved than the Incisor, arguably the single worst gun in the entire game.

I think at this point the Incisor thing has reached a disturbing level of group think.  I have scored 150k+ on a GI with it, and I'm not even an avid Infiltrator player.  It's definitely got issues, especially on non-Infiltrators, but the truth is that most people have made up their minds about it being awful having never used it or only used once or twice.  It particularly shines if you use a stabilization module on it, but people are so convinced by the group think they don't even think to try such an approach.

[angelkd]

I read your op and i thought most of the changes were good, but the one that struck me as odd was the inf one why not make the base cool down a little longer and to give the duration one a little edge make it so you also get a slight power boost so you'd have a real reason to take it and sneak behind the enemies and plant that prox mine or sticky nade.

[Metal Vile]

Atheosis wrote...

GaryMaple wrote...

Rokayt wrote...

I dig this thread, but we obviously have not balanced all the things: The Scimitar is the Raptor of shotguns. It needs some serious love to get off the ground as it is.

There's no way that the Raptor can be less loved than the Incisor, arguably the single worst gun in the entire game.

I think at this point the Incisor thing has reached a disturbing level of group think.  I have scored 150k+ on a GI with it, and I'm not even an avid Infiltrator player.  It's definitely got issues, especially on non-Infiltrators, but the truth is that most people have made up their minds about it being awful having never used it or only used once or twice.  It particularly shines if you use a stabilization module on it, but people are so convinced by the group think they don't even think to try such an approach.

Honestly, one of the issues of it for me is it's slow firing speed.  A burst fire weapon with a lower RoF than half of the Semi-autos in game?  Pretty bad.  But, if you use that as a parameter to try and give the gun a boost, the high recoil issue becomes even worse.  I agree that many people's problem is that they're probably trying to fire it outside of cover; unless you're on PC and / or really good at keeping your aim down, the gun just has issues. 

Although something interesting I noticed according to the stat sheet is that the Incisor is the ONLY sniper rifle to have HIGHER listed recoil when firing while zoomed in.  I suppose this technically is a non-issue, as No-scoping with snipers (other than the Kishock) give you something like a 20% damage cut; so really only the "zoom recoil" matters, but that's still pretty odd.