724 réponses à ce sujet

[Grunt_Platform]

angelkd wrote...

I read your op and i thought most of the changes were good, but the one that struck me as odd was the inf one why not make the base cool down a little longer and to give the duration one a little edge make it so you also get a slight power boost so you'd have a real reason to take it and sneak behind the enemies and plant that prox mine or sticky nade.

Adding extra benefits to certain evolutions would require a patch, not a Fagnanesque change.



Anyway, for the Incisor, I'm actually not sure what that gun needs. Its potential damage is fine, but with its high magnification its recoil feels way worse than it actually is. But reducing its recoil starts treading on the Indra's toes. Going to try it a bit more, see how it works with and without the stabilization module.

[GodlessPaladin]

Atheosis wrote...

GaryMaple wrote...

Rokayt wrote...

I
dig this thread, but we obviously have not balanced all the things: The
Scimitar is the Raptor of shotguns. It needs some serious love to get
off the ground as it is.

There's no way that the Raptor can be less loved than the Incisor, arguably the single worst gun in the entire game.

I think at this point the Incisor thing has reached a disturbing level of group think.  I have scored 150k+ on a GI with it, and I'm not even an avid Infiltrator player.  It's definitely got issues, especially on non-Infiltrators, but the truth is that most people have made up their minds about it being awful having never used it or only used once or
twice.  It particularly shines if you use a stabilization module on it, but people are so convinced by the group think they don't even think to try such an approach.

Re: The Incisor
I don't like the idea of getting rid of its recoil... that's what makes it unique from options like the vindicator, indra, or raptor, and frankly Stabilization Modules could use more reasons to exist rather than less.  If I were to recommend a change for it at all, I would rather give it more of a reward for mastering it rather than eliminating its distinctive disadvantage.

Keep in mind though that it's lighter and has more damage potential than the Raptor already, which becomes slightly more relevant in the context of making sniper rifles more useful for all characters.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 21 juin 2012 - 05:49 .

[panda1pandemic]

/signed! You obviously spent a lot of time on this and I agree with just about everything I've read.

[Grunt_Platform]

After playing with the Incisor a bit on a GI on silver.. the gun isn't nearly as hard to handle or inaccurate as is often claimed. This was with some massive damage bonuses, so maybe its damage could be a touch better. Since it already has recoil to deal with, upping its accuracy a bit probably wouldn't hurt either.

[GodlessPaladin]

EvanKester wrote...

After playing with the Incisor a bit on a GI on silver.. the gun isn't nearly as hard to handle or inaccurate as is often claimed. This was with some massive damage bonuses, so maybe its damage could be a touch better. Since it already has recoil to deal with, upping its accuracy a bit probably wouldn't hurt either.

The Incisor is very accurate already.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 21 juin 2012 - 05:55 .

[capn233]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Re: The Incisor
I don't like the idea of getting rid of its recoil... that's what makes it unique from options like the vindicator, indra, or raptor, and frankly Stabilization Modules could use more reasons to exist rather than less.  If I were to recommend a change for it at all, I would rather give it more of a reward for mastering it rather than eliminating its distinctive disadvantage.

Keep in mind though that it's lighter and has more damage potential than the Raptor already, which becomes slightly more relevant in the context of making sniper rifles more useful for all characters.

Has anyone tested it with ME2 rate of fire (600) for the burst, but increased refire time so that bursts still remain at the same interval as the current weapon?

[Blind2Society]

Blind2Society wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Sniper Rifles!
All sniper rifles save the Krysae have had their damage increased by 15% (20% for the Javelin) alongside a 15% reduction to Tactical Cloak's sniper rifle damage multiplier, keeping the effectiveness of sniper Infiltrators the same but making sniper rifles more competitively viable for other classes.  This also effectively nerfs the Krysae in the hands of sniper infiltrators just enough so that it doesn't one-shot shielded Gold mobs, while not affecting its potency in the hands of any other characters.

I have always been opposed to your suggested infiltrator balance changes, and as for duration decrease, I simply want it to still last for one full objective cap. However, with the damage nerf, I've really only been opposed because sniper rifles in this game don't do as much damage as they should even with cloak.

I think, if they added your sniper rifle buffs and made headshots bypass shieldgate (at least mostly) I would be more than happy to accept your changes.

GodlessPaladin wrote...
- Asari:  Asari are another race that don't like to give up points for Fitness at all (Stasis, Warp, Throw, Biotic Charge, and Lift Grenades are all Nice Things), and even if they did, well, they have their squishiness to consider.   On top of that, their melee is super-slow and super-risky and barely does more damage than other, faster area melee attacks.  Asari are squishy (except for Justicars) and melee fitness makes them MORE squishy and using heavy melee leaves you fairly defenseless.  As such, we felt that the Asari melee could really use some extra oomph.

I also very much agree with this.

GodlessPaladin wrote...
- Krogans:  Because they should smash things even more.  Search your feelings, you know it to be true.  Really though, I'm serious... there's not far too much point to taking Fortification and meleeing on Gold instead of just tossing Inferno Grenades to your heart's content and setting off explosions with Carnage, other than the occasional Phantom, a slight buff wouldn't hurt.  And that's just what it is... slight.  Perhaps the most meaningful thing is that they're under a bit less pressure to melee all the time, because the rage window is lengthened a bit.

For Krogans, I feel their melee should be AoE. Granted it would be quite small (just the size of their body and outstreched arm) but I think it would be a welcome change none the less.

As for changes that I feel are necessary that I don't think you mentioned

Proximity mine proximity needs to be increased by a meter or two. (not explosion radius)

Turians needs a roll.

Enemy evasion rates need to be drastically decreased. (for the sake of warp)

Enemy geth seriously need to be addressed.

- Primes: I would say each geth prime can only deploy one turret at a time and each has a total of two turrets. Their auto-cannon could probably use a tweak as well.

- Pyros: Pyros are armored so they should not be able to evade and their range needs to be decreased

- Hunters: Hunters are too fast, invisible, they stagger with each shot, each shot does crazy damage, they have shields, their shields regenerate in no time, they can shoot while staggered and there are a ton of them. Because of the drastic amount of OP here, I'm not exactly sure what needs to be changed.

 - Rocket Troopers: Rocket spam is a major issue. I feel they should only be able to shoot one rocket every, i don't know, 4 seconds or so. They also need to have an adjustment to the amount of time it takes them to target you.

- Troopers: Their GPRs are level 7000 or something crazy but it's not really an issue if the rest of the faction was balanced correctly. And not balanced concerning farming, they should be balanced to normal play.

There may be one or two balance changes I'm missing but those are the most important.


EDIT: Oh yes, and as I stated earlier, the mantis should reload like the valiant.

I would also like to add that I think warp should hit much more reliably and that the Phoenix Adept needs much more survivability.

[Grunt_Platform]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

EvanKester wrote...

After playing with the Incisor a bit on a GI on silver.. the gun isn't nearly as hard to handle or inaccurate as is often claimed. This was with some massive damage bonuses, so maybe its damage could be a touch better. Since it already has recoil to deal with, upping its accuracy a bit probably wouldn't hurt either.

The Incisor is very accurate already.

So it is! Must have been confused by screen shake.

OK. Anyway, the gun is much better than it's given credit for, and it actually staggers large groups of enemies really easily. A slight damage buff might make it more appealing, but I think it just needs enough to get people to give it a second look.

It's perfectly ready to be a happy Geth & Turian weapon, with its good rate of fire, minimal recoil and light weight.

Modifié par EvanKester, 21 juin 2012 - 06:14 .

[buthane22]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

buthane22 wrote...

I have one for you

Thread name
- Change name from [Balance ALL the things! (A collaborative effort] to [Buff ALL the things (Minus 3-4 things so it looks like a real balance]

Honestly, I'm not the kind to ask for nerfs (far from it), but the nerfs you're asking aren't really nerfs. This is a 'please buff everything' thread....

I do not appreciate people making comments that they, in general, do not like buffs or nerfs.  Please identify specific buffs or nerfs you disagree with rather than simply disagreeing with the general idea of buffs or nerfs.  It's much more productive.  Thanks.

Even more productive would be suggesting actual changes you'd like to see to improve the balance of the game.

You're absolutely right. So here are the specific balance change I would modify :

- Ballistic Blades is a great power already, no real need to increase the spread.

- This one is personnal, but Tac Cloak is perfect as it is and should stay the same (maybe change the cooldown thing...)

- Instead of adding 10% to all light melee values, I would speed up the 'animation' by 15-20%. To me light melee isn't supposed to be powerful, it's supposed to be used to stagger the enemy and buy yourself some time to counter attack. So : No change to damage, but faster attack.

- Harrier weight should stay the same. It's a God-tier weapon and deserves to be heavy. if needed a weight buff should look more like : Weight range changed from [1.75-1.25] to [1.75-1.1]

- Instead of making the Wraith lighter, I would increase it's refiring rate, making it different from other shotguns : Rate of fire incressed from 48 to 200

Anyway, these are just MY opinion, what do you think?

Modifié par buthane22, 21 juin 2012 - 06:36 .

[Grunt_Platform]

buthane22 wrote...
You're absolutely right. So here are the specific balance change I would modify :

- Ballistic Blades is a great power already, no real need to increase the spread.

- This one is personnal, but Tac Cloak is perfect as it is and should stay the same (maybe change the cooldown thing...)

- Instead of adding 10% to all light melee values, I would speed up the 'animation' by 15-20%. To me light melee isn't supposed to be powerful, it's supposed to be used to stagger the enemy and buy yourself some time to counter attack. So : No change to damage, but faster attack.

- Harrier weight should stay the same. It's a God-tier weapon and deserves to be heavy. if needed a weight buff should look more like : Weight range changed from [1.75-1.25] to [1.75-1.1]

- Instead of making the Wraith lighter, I would increase it's refiring rate, making it different from other shotguns : Rate of fire incressed from 48 to 200

Anyway, these are just MY opinion, what do you think?

Real quick on a few points:
- The Cone buff is just to make it more appealing against the Damage evolution, which currently has it beat.
- Changing animation speeds is sadly outside the purview of this thread. While I think we'd all like to add AOE to krogan melee, and a faster animation for Asari, that simply can't be done with the weekly live updates this thread is aimed at.
- The Ultra Rares aren't being made lighter overall, their weight at rank I is being reduced across the board to tighten their weight range, and allow more builds to use them at rank I. At Rank X, none of them have been changed.
- The actual change to Tactical Claok is really minute. At worst, its duration with a damage build will be only 5.2 seconds. That's a little low and could use some adjustment, since it might encourage damage Infiltrators to act even more like loners instead of helping the team with revives and the like, but they should need Evolution 1 to get durations over 10 seconds.

Anyway, from the FAQ:

Q:  Hey, X is a great power already!  Why are there buffs for X?
A:  Even if X is a great power, some great powers have underpowered evolution options that are never used.  When you can feel the indecision between two options, that's balance, right there.  As such, some options on good powers are buffed to make them competitive with their directly competing alternatives.  This doesn't make the power as a whole much stronger because it comes at the direct opportunity cost of the other, previously superior option... it just means it offers more ways to play to the player!

Modifié par EvanKester, 21 juin 2012 - 07:16 .

[Geek]

buthane22 wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

buthane22 wrote...

I have one for you

Thread name
- Change name from [Balance ALL the things! (A collaborative effort] to [Buff ALL the things (Minus 3-4 things so it looks like a real balance]

Honestly, I'm not the kind to ask for nerfs (far from it), but the nerfs you're asking aren't really nerfs. This is a 'please buff everything' thread....

I do not appreciate people making comments that they, in general, do not like buffs or nerfs.  Please identify specific buffs or nerfs you disagree with rather than simply disagreeing with the general idea of buffs or nerfs.  It's much more productive.  Thanks.

Even more productive would be suggesting actual changes you'd like to see to improve the balance of the game.

You're absolutely right. So here are the specific balance change I would modify :

- Ballistic Blades is a great power already, no real need to increase the spread.

- This one is personnal, but Tac Cloak is perfect as it is and should stay the same (maybe change the cooldown thing...)

- Instead of adding 10% to all light melee values, I would speed up the 'animation' by 15-20%. To me light melee isn't supposed to be powerful, it's supposed to be used to stagger the enemy and buy yourself some time to counter attack. So : No change to damage, but faster attack.

- Harrier weight should stay the same. It's a God-tier weapon and deserves to be heavy. if needed a weight buff should look more like : Weight range changed from [1.75-1.25] to [1.75-1.1]

- Instead of making the Wraith lighter, I would increase it's refiring rate, making it different from other shotguns : Rate of fire incressed from 48 to 200

Anyway, these are just MY opinion, what do you think?

On the harrier and other ultra rares in general: We adjusted the wieght range only for the lower levels and not the high end to make them more accessible when you first unlock them. The changes specifically didn't lower the rank X weight values, but in some cases we made them a little heavier.

With the Wraith, making it fire 4 times faster would definitely make it overpowered.

[Grunt_Platform]

[Repeat by accident, please ignore]

Modifié par EvanKester, 21 juin 2012 - 07:16 .

[GodlessPaladin]

buthane22 wrote...
Anyway, these are just MY opinion, what do you think?

Thanks.  Here's my response to each of those suggestions:

- Ballistic Blades is a great power already, no real need to increase the spread.

  It's not a question of whether Ballistic Blades is a great power already just like it wasn't a case of whether Reave or Warp were good powers already regarding our changes there.  It's a question of whether one evolution is competitive with another, directly competing evolution for that same ability.  In the case of Ballistic Blades, we felt that a 30% damage bonus seemed like the obvious choice over a spread increase from 90 to 110 degrees.  If an evolution is brought up to the level of the better evolution, that doesn't really make the power as a whole notably stronger, since you obviously can't take both evolutions at the same time.  It just gives you more choices and ways to play.

- This one is personnal, but Tac Cloak is perfect as it is and should stay the same (maybe change the cooldown thing...)

  I do not feel Tactical Cloak is perfect as is, at the very least because A) there's no particular reason to choose Evolution 1 instead of Evolution 2 and because the 1.4x multiplier to sniper rifles is so large a factor that pretty much all sniper rifles save the Krysae are underpowered on everyone else to compensate. 

-
Instead of adding 10% to all light melee values, I would speed up the
'animation' by 15-20%. To me light melee isn't supposed to be powerful,
it's supposed to be used to stagger the enemy and by yourself some time to counter attack. So : No change to damage, but faster attack.

We have restricted ourselves to only suggesting Fagnanesque changes (e.g. .ini file changes only) and therefore I'm pretty sure animation changes are off the table.

- Harrier weight should stay the same. It's a God-tier weapon
and deserves to be heavy. if needed a weight buff should look more like
: Weight range changed from [1.75-1.25] to [1.75-1.1]

  Your reasoning here doesn't make sense.  Our change did not reduce the minimum weight of the Harrier, whereas yours actually gave it a 15% weight buff. 

- Instead of making the Wraith lighter, I would increase it's refiring rate, making it different from other shotguns : Rate of fire incressed from 48 to 200

  Against, we have not decreased the minimum weight of the Wraith.   A Wraith X is exactly the same as it was before our changes.  Your change on the other hand is actually a huge buff.

The only weapon which got a minimum weight buff was the Crusader.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 21 juin 2012 - 07:01 .

[GodlessPaladin]

Some more info on the Incisor: With the current changes it does about as much damage output as the Mattock and synergizes with Turian stability and rate of fire increases... unlike the Mattock or Raptor.

[angelkd]

EvanKester wrote...

angelkd wrote...

I read your op and i thought most of the changes were good, but the one that struck me as odd was the inf one why not make the base cool down a little longer and to give the duration one a little edge make it so you also get a slight power boost so you'd have a real reason to take it and sneak behind the enemies and plant that prox mine or sticky nade.

Adding extra benefits to certain evolutions would require a patch, not a Fagnanesque change.



Anyway, for the Incisor, I'm actually not sure what that gun needs. Its potential damage is fine, but with its high magnification its recoil feels way worse than it actually is. But reducing its recoil starts treading on the Indra's toes. Going to try it a bit more, see how it works with and without the stabilization module.

ah my bad then

[Rokayt]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Some more info on the Incisor: With the current changes it does about as much damage output as the Mattock and synergizes with Turian stability and rate of fire increases... unlike the Mattock or Raptor.

The Incisor does great damage, I will note.  Ultimately its the high zoom that dooms it for me. Otherwise, it is suprisingly effective for those who can overcome its flaws. Much like the more popular Raptor.

Both could use buffs in light of their flaws, and the risky gameplay needed to use said weaponry.

As for the Scimitar, my tests have roughly conluded it could probably be good with a 25% Buff to damage, making it much like its big brother, The Raptor. Its realod animation is so long that it is silly, so a larger damage buff may be in order due to the massive cut in DPS that this causes.

[Grunt_Platform]

The Incisor still deals less damage than the Mattock, even after a 15% buff, and it suffers from the damage penalty for un-scoped shots. It only starts to out-damage the Mattock when combined with rate of fire and accuracy bonuses, which I think is fine. A burst fire and full-auto weapons with recoil should benefit more from Marksman, Hunter Mode and turian stability than the really good semi-autos, it gives them a special niche.

[BoomDynamite]

Your balance thread is great. Other than the small Hurricane nerf (which is really nothing), I agree with everything. Hopefully BW implements a lot of those because they'll make the game as balanced as BF3 is right now. There is one suggestion I have though. Add a 20% DR to Marksman to make the Turian Soldier more durable (in the patch notes, not balance changes). Anyway, great thread. It's one of the better ones on the MP Forum.

Modifié par BoomDynamite, 21 juin 2012 - 08:33 .

[sliverofamoon]

Zjarcal wrote...

EvanKester wrote...

sliverofamoon wrote...

I reallly hope that the Tac. Cloak doesn't get the nerf's you propose. IMO it's too heavy-handed, and Infiltrators are not even my best or favorite class. I would much rather see an increase in damage from Adrenaline Rush, than a decrease in damage in the Tac. Cloak tree in order to make Soldiers more viable with a Sniper Rifle.

Edit: And making the comparison to ME1 or ME2 is unfair, because in ME3 MP, the enemy AI does not ignore you and stop firing at you. You continue to get shot at, and take damage, and with no increase in health or shields. It is my personal opinion that with these changes, we might as well write off the Infil. class entirely.

How so? By reducing the Tac. Cloak sniper rifle damage bonus 15%, and increasing the base damage of all non-Krysae sniper rifles by 15% or better, damage remains roughly the same. Other than that he's only talking about redistributing the damage bonus slightly while keeping its max value the same. Most Infiltrators are overkilling trashmobs really easily, and that wouldn't change with this proposal.

Also, keep in mind that Tactical Cloak isn't broken, the enemy AI is just slightly smarter than ME2. If you cloak and then change position, you can snipe in peace. Enemies only keep shooting you because they tend to spray your last known location when you cloak, and if they hit you they can "see" the flicker. In fact, if you have Hunter Mode on as either geth character, you can watch how enemy behavior is changed any time you break line-of-sight, tactical cloak or no.

Indeed, the damage reduction GodlessPaladin proposes is almost entirely countered with all the sniper rifle damage buffs he lists. Really, there would hardly be any difference in terms of damage output.

Regarding the duration, yeah, now you'd have to sacrifice some damge (30% in total) in order to have a decent cloak duration. It's a good proposal, I like the ME1 comparison. Besides, are we really suggesting a 30% damage BONUS decrease (out of a possible 125% total with these changes), is going to RUIN a class (one that already deals ridiculously high damage)? Come on. (this coming from someone whose favorite class is Infiltrator)

And it's true what you said about the enemy AI. You can also see the behavior change if you arrive at an area while cloaked, and then decloak once settled in it. While you're still cloaked, enemies will keep shooting the location from which you arrived from (or the last location they spotted you), it's only once you decloak that they will start shooting your new position).

Also, it's not so much that they see through your cloak, it's more that they are smart about it. I believe it was GodlessPaladin again who also once made this analogy, when you see a Phantom or  Geth Hunter cloak right in front of you, do you stop shooting at them and just forget they are there? AI enemies work the same way.

P.S.: Forgot to say, this thread is awesome and I support it 100%. 

I did re-read this, as I know all the nerf Tac. Cloak threads just get my panties in a bunch, and I should look at it closer, and think more fairly.

LOL The one thing that DID sway me, is Zjarcal. She's a simply AMAZING Infiltrator. And I really havn't played my Geth because the HM hurts my eyes after 5 minutes, so I do not know this. All I had to go by was attempting to solo, for practice, with my QI, or HI.... which was the last class I was able to complete a solo with because of the continuous cloaked damage, and no healing while cloaked. If she agree's with it, I would, because to me, she is a definate authority on Infiltrators, and understands much more about playability and how it relates to the actual numbers and game mechanics than I ever would.

P.S. And yes......... she IS that good. I'm not just flattering her.

Modifié par sliverofamoon, 21 juin 2012 - 09:07 .

[GodlessPaladin]

Striker suggestion added:

Striker Assault Rifle
- Damage increased from [144.7-180.9] to [159.2-199.0]
- Spare ammo increased from [48-60] to [58-72]

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 21 juin 2012 - 09:55 .

[GodlessPaladin]

Chriss5688 wrote...
GodlessPaladin, are you planning on touching enemies as well?

Maybe, but I currently don't have much in the works in that department.  I mean if I wanted anything more out of enemies I would want a harder difficulty level but making a harder difficulty level is kinda a different project entirely.  The only other thing I'd change would be curbing elements of "fake difficulty" such as buggy nonsense and compensating by raising elements of "real difficulty" like enemy movement speed or transitions into different attacks for banshees and grenade tossing rates and such.  There are two issues with that... one is that dealing with buggy nonsense falls outside of the purview of .ini file changes (or "Fagnanesque changes"), and the second is that I'd need to get my hands on more detailed enemy statistics than just their health/shields/regeneration rate.  If anyone can point me to such I'd be all over it.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 21 juin 2012 - 10:10 .

[Creston918]

I wish they'd balance your ability to continuously and endlessly whine about everything that needs to be balanced.

[GodlessPaladin]

Creston918 wrote...

I wish they'd balance your ability to continuously and endlessly whine about everything that needs to be balanced.

Real classy.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 21 juin 2012 - 10:11 .