724 réponses à ce sujet

[The Waffle Cat]

The tread is called balance all the things, the Geth heavy melee does 2472.6 damage. How is this in balance to all other classes and races? Its not hence why it needs a nerf.

[capn233]

Nobody is interested in talking Viper with me. But I leave for a few minutes and this happens:

Viper Sniper Rifle
- Damage increased from [229.4-286.7] to [265.6-332.0]
- Encumbrance decreased from [1.5-0.9] to [1.25-0.7]

That's higher than the proposed damage increase in the OP... if you went another 15% then it becomes;
[305.44-381.8]

Very interesting.

[Grunt_Platform]

The Waffle Cat wrote...

The tread is called balance all the things, the Geth heavy melee does 2472.6 damage. How is this in balance to all other classes and races? Its not hence why it needs a nerf.

...

I'm sorry. But. Did you miss the part where this proposal is buffing every other race and class's heavy melees?

That aside, under similar (extreme) circumenstances, a Krogan Soldier did 4812.5 damage with his heavy melee, even before the proposed buffs. Turian Soldier did 3121.875.  Heck, the Drell did 2775.

Each of those melees is a lot more damaging, and a lot safer to use. And they track the target. And they don't use up your shields.

Modifié par EvanKester, 21 juin 2012 - 11:36 .

[The Waffle Cat]

Not able to hit aoe so thats not a valid comparison, the GI has a max of 3 per hit and can be spammed which the krogan and turian cant

In the time the krogan / turian pulled of 1 the Geth has already done 2-3 which makes it even more ridiculous.

[Grunt_Platform]

The Waffle Cat wrote...

Not able to hit aoe so thats not a valid comparison, the GI has a max of 3 per hit and can be spammed which the krogan and turian cant

In the time the krogan / turian pulled of 1 the Geth has already done 2-3 which makes it even more ridiculous.

Asari: 2312.5. Ex-Cerberus: 1618.75 (Note: Both have a better radius than Shield Pulse. The Cerberus Lash attack also has much more useful force damage that trips up and knocks down every enemy it hits)

The only classes that deal less melee damage than the Geth Infiltrator have no powers that boost melee damage, aside from Martial Artist. (Edit: And even considering that, they do nearly as much damage.)

And each and every non-Geth melee is receiving a buff in the proposal. In other words, if the only reason to nerf the Geth melee is that it's stronger than other melees... your complaint is being addressed!

You need to understand that prior to this, even krogan generally prefer to spec Rage for durability on Gold. That means the only class whose Heavy Melee is actually worth speccing into, sometimes, is the Geth Infiltrator. Nerfing it just removes the only Gold-viable melee option from the game. 

Modifié par EvanKester, 21 juin 2012 - 11:46 .

[The Waffle Cat]

Your forgetting the fact that the asari and ex-cerberus nor krogan nor turian can cloak to get up close and use its melee, geth can

Geth can as well spam their heavy melee, any other class cant without having sn animation bound to it, asari heavy melee drains half barrier and has a cast time of 2 seconds or heck even more cant calculate it. The geth can spam his heavy melee to do at least 2 a 3 pulsed by B spam only an he will have a higher damage than any other.

If it had an animation it would be fine but atm its spamable and that makes it OP

[Grunt_Platform]

The Waffle Cat wrote...

Your forgetting the fact that the asari and ex-cerberus nor krogan nor turian can cloak to get up close and use its melee, geth can

Geth can as well spam their heavy melee, any other class cant without having sn animation bound to it, asari heavy melee drains half barrier and has a cast time of 2 seconds or heck even more cant calculate it. The geth can spam his heavy melee to do at least 2 a 3 pulsed by B spam only an he will have a higher damage than any other.

If it had an animation it would be fine but atm its spamable and that makes it OP

Pheonix Vanguard. Asari Vanguard. Lash. Stasis.

And Shield Pulse has a short animation, not no animation. The shield drop actually happens slightly before the damage is dealt too. And the Ceberus Lash animation is pretty damn quick, and doesn't drop shields.

I've also only quoted pre-buff numbers for you. Post-buff the numbers look a lot better for every heavy melee that isn't Shield Pulse. An remember, these numbers are assuming every possible bonus applies. The sheet I'm using doesn't have the pre-bonus numbers, but they favor the GI's shield pulse a lot less.

Modifié par EvanKester, 21 juin 2012 - 11:51 .

[The Waffle Cat]

How are lash and stasis even connected to the per 0.5 seconds able to spam geth heavy melee

Your pretending like its a heavy risk to use it which it isnt, your melee staggers nealy everything it kills mooks in 1 melee and will destroy spawns, havent seen a cerby or asari do that an get a killstreak while doing it.

[Blind2Society]

Chriss5688 wrote...

The problem is that Nemesis' are dangerous when in groups, but on their own they are unable to kill you. Increasing their rate of fire a bit is enough, I think. How many shots per second is she capable of at the moment?

They can kill you, I've been killed by them before. One laser shot and then one of those cheap no-aiming shots to finish you when they start their ballet. The thing is, when in doubt they resort to trying to stay alive (ballet) rather than trying to kill you. Though sometimes, as I said, they do let that second, killing shot go.

But again, I think they are intended simply as a shieldgate bypass mechanic for cerberus. It doesn't seem they were intended to be able to kill you though they can on occasion.

[molecularman]

IMO, if you REALLY were to touch GI melee it should involve something like reducing the number of targets hit to 2 or decreasing radius a bit. Not that necessary, IMO

OR of course remove the spammability, it should probably be the same when you hold down your melee button. That'd require a patch though

Modifié par molecularman, 22 juin 2012 - 12:00 .

[Grunt_Platform]

The Waffle Cat wrote...

How are lash and stasis even connected to the per 0.5 seconds able to spam geth heavy melee

Your pretending like its a heavy risk to use it which it isnt, your melee staggers nealy everything it kills mooks in 1 melee and will destroy spawns, havent seen a cerby or asari do that an get a killstreak while doing it.

Lash pulls enemies into melee range and leaves them prone and unable to fight back. Allows the Phoenix to safely dispatch unarmored enemies at his laisure. Stasis locks them in place. I assume you know how Biotic Charge helps.

Post buffs numbers for you:
With maintainable bonuses: Geth - 834.375, Asari- 1199.25, Phoenix - 861
With every possible bonus: Geth - 2472.6, Asari - 2778.75, Phoenix - 2375

Looks like after the proposed buffs, Asari Vanguard will be better for running into and Meleeing entire spawn groups than the Geth! And she's not nearly as squishy.

Modifié par EvanKester, 22 juin 2012 - 12:01 .

[GodlessPaladin]

The Waffle Cat wrote...

The tread is called balance all the things, the Geth heavy melee does 2472.6 damage. How is this in balance to all other classes and races? Its not hence why it needs a nerf.

You realize that 2472.6 damage is less than the heavy melee of many other races right?  Krogans and Batarians do over 4000, and Turians, non-Geth Infiltrators, Human Soldiers, and Human Sentinels do over 3000.  These are the numbers as they are in the current game.   It's not the damage per hit that makes Geth melee good.

Also maybe you missed the part where we buffed the melee of every non-Geth race and made weapon synergy more meaningful?

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 22 juin 2012 - 12:04 .

[capn233]

I have only actually seen one decent melee GI on PC and that was today actually. It helped that he had a QMI (me) on the team to drop some Arc Grenades and revive him when need be, as well as the fact that it was on Glacier.

GI melee isn't some magic attack that. It does drain your shields afterall. And given that basically everyone else has gotten a melee buff, why are you belly-aching about this one so much? If anything this discussion has run its course.

edit: and OP needs to be updated with new Viper stats since it was buffed today, as per my previous post.  Or reimagine it as per the other one

Modifié par capn233, 22 juin 2012 - 12:02 .

[Drummernate]

BoomDynamite wrote...

Hopefully BW implements a lot of those because they'll make the game as balanced as BF3 is right now.

Lol... that's a joke right?

93R killing in 0.001 seconds from out to 15m is balanced?... It takes 1 headshot and 1 bodyshot to kill with it. It fires in 3 round bursts that are nearly instant. Balanced? No.

M417 killing in 1 headshot no matter what range and having 20 rounds per mag with a semi-auto rifle is balanced?...

[The Waffle Cat]

Lash often pulls them behind you or some random direction

Stasis doesnt work on armored targets -.-

Im talking about the numbers as they are now as I said a couple of times : these are things I would like to see changing

[Grunt_Platform]

The Waffle Cat wrote...

Lash often pulls them behind you or some random direction

Stasis doesnt work on armored targets -.-

Im talking about the numbers as they are now as I said a couple of times : these are things I would like to see changing

If you're using Shield Pulse on armored targets you're a bold, bold man.

And maybe you are talking about only your ideas.. if you're going to discount one of the major balance changes in the thread, maybe you should either argue for why nerfing Shield Pulse is preferable to buffing every other, hardly used heavy melee?

Most people are discussing the proposal, and additions to it, not complete replacements.

Modifié par EvanKester, 22 juin 2012 - 12:07 .

[The Waffle Cat]

Christ you are stubborn and annoying as **** :

Gi can get close ( stated 1000000+ times now, you ignore that)
Its AoE with a stagger
It has an animation in which you can do 3 of em opposed to the asari's heavy melee can do only 1

Ive seen speed runs pre-patch with it hitting the 14 minute mark with 4 doing heavy melee GI's va. Cerberus, you call of those speedrunners bold because they use it vs atlas and turrets? Yes nowadays it gord faster due to wave transitions etc.

Im out of here as you're getting on my neres its like teaching my kid to say dadda and instead she says mamma, you just ignore what I said in the previous paes and just rattle on about lash stasis and other BS thats irrelevant

Sorry for my language just a bit annoyed

-dave

[Metal Vile]

capn233 wrote...

Nobody is interested in talking Viper with me. But I leave for a few minutes and this happens:

Viper Sniper Rifle
- Damage increased from [229.4-286.7] to [265.6-332.0]
- Encumbrance decreased from [1.5-0.9] to [1.25-0.7]

That's higher than the proposed damage increase in the OP... if you went another 15% then it becomes;
[305.44-381.8]

Very interesting.

I think giving the Viper a niche of being the one, true "light sniper rifle" is more interesting than trying to fabricate a "Valiant Lite" model.  Trying to mimic a gun like the Valiant will ultimately end in failure, I would think, as the only people who would use it are those who don't have a Valiant yet.  Unless the weapon were SIGNIFICANTLY lighter, like the above proposal.

Although, I do want to bring up something I mentioned previously, which was the fact that the Incisor, and to a lesser extent the Viper, have very poor scaling on their SCOPED recoil as compared to the STANDARD recoil.  Mostly doesn't matter, because no-scoping sucks unless its the Kishock, but as I mentioned before, Incisor is the only sniper with HIGHER recoil when scoped vs. un-scoped.  And the Viper only gets a 10% recoil reduction when scoping, while most other snipers get anywhere from 30-40%.

This is something that could be improved for the Viper to help it's ability to land multiple headshots quickly, like the Valiant, without necessarily changing it's RoF.

[Blind2Society]

The Waffle Cat wrote...

Im out of here as you're getting on my neres its like teaching my kid to say dadda and instead she says mamma,

Sorry for straying off topic but I sincerely hope you don't get mad like this at your kid for saying momma instead of dadda.

[The Waffle Cat]

Blind2Society wrote...

The Waffle Cat wrote...

Im out of here as you're getting on my neres its like teaching my kid to say dadda and instead she says mamma,

Sorry for straying off topic but I sincerely hope you don't get mad like this at your kid for saying momma instead of dadda.

Hahaha, nah I just think : Y U NO SAY DADDA? Never ever said an angry word to her shes too young to even comprehend it

[Acktimeus]

i think the falcon needs a slight buff. I find it very effective vs phantoms and organic enemies but useless vs anything armored. This becomes problematic when fight reapers as most of there units are armored.

falcon
-decrease damage reduction to armored enemies

[Grunt_Platform]

The Waffle Cat wrote...

Christ you are stubborn and annoying as **** :

Gi can get close ( stated 1000000+ times now, you ignore that)
Its AoE with a stagger
It has an animation in which you can do 3 of em opposed to the asari's heavy melee can do only 1

I am sorry that you feel that way,  and I apologize if I was unclear or overly stubborn. I was attempting to be brief and match the pace of your replies. I also did not intend to ignore your points, and I do not feel that I did.

EDIT: On second thought, I don't need to go into detail on this.

I mentioned Lash and Stasis because it was my feeling that their presence, in combination with Biotic Charge made the approach easier for the Vanguards than I think your realized. I do feel that the melee damage for the Vanguards should be better, as it's not very rewarding. I was not ignoring your point, but replying to it.  The Phoenix classes actually make heavy use of their melees already. My contention is that the proposal in the OP solves the problem better.

What I should have asked from the beginning is: Why do you feel nerfing geth Shield Pulse is preferable to the buffs proposed in the thread? Both solutions solve the power discrepency.

Modifié par EvanKester, 22 juin 2012 - 03:32 .

[capn233]

Metal Vile wrote...

I think giving the Viper a niche of being the one, true "light sniper rifle" is more interesting than trying to fabricate a "Valiant Lite" model.  Trying to mimic a gun like the Valiant will ultimately end in failure, I would think, as the only people who would use it are those who don't have a Valiant yet.  Unless the weapon were SIGNIFICANTLY lighter, like the above proposal.

Although, I do want to bring up something I mentioned previously, which was the fact that the Incisor, and to a lesser extent the Viper, have very poor scaling on their SCOPED recoil as compared to the STANDARD recoil.  Mostly doesn't matter, because no-scoping sucks unless its the Kishock, but as I mentioned before, Incisor is the only sniper with HIGHER recoil when scoped vs. un-scoped.  And the Viper only gets a 10% recoil reduction when scoping, while most other snipers get anywhere from 30-40%.

This is something that could be improved for the Viper to help it's ability to land multiple headshots quickly, like the Valiant, without necessarily changing it's RoF.

It isn't really fabricating a niche for several reasons.  First it already was more of a DMR in ME2 with a rate of fire of 240rpm.  The other thing is that even with a ROF boost it wouldn't replace the Valiant as it does much less damage per shot, at least previously.

I didn't propose to make it heavier, simply to boost the rate of fire.  It would indeed be lighter than the Valiant but still lag it in DPS.  It would also still lag the Phalanx and basically every other non-single shot SR except for the Krysae in DPS.  But it would feel a whole lot more like it did in ME2.

As for the recoil, due to the low ROF it feels like it hardly has any.  I just played a game with the "new and improved" Viper and it still has the lazy ROF, but I guess the extra damage helped.  It could gill most shielded Cerbi units in 2 shots (with ARush and some bonuses) but it took about 5 years to an Atlas with ARush (max damage), Ext Barrel V, SR Piercing V, AP Ammo III, SR Rail Amp III (consumable), SR Rail Amp V (gear).

Additionally, if it had more recoil than Val, but similar ROF it would feel a whole lot different.  It would actually be different than practically any rifle in the game.

In any event, the weekly change surpassed the 15% across the board damage boost that GP proposed (it was like 16%) but personally I would rather see the current damage with ROF at 100 rather than add on another 15%.