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[Spiffspoo]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

More changes being considered for adding to the list... nerfs this time.

Grenade Capacity Gear
- Capacity bonus progression changed from 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 to 1, 1, 2, 2, 3 (as awkward as this is, I think it's the only thing about Grenade Capacity gear that can be edited in the ini)

Arc Grenade Power
- Base Radius decreased from 8 to 6 meters

Notes: Base radius of other grenades
-Sticky: 2m
-Frag: 6.5
-Lift: 5m
-Inferno: 5m
-Cluster: 4m

If you can edit in +damage or +radius into the Grenade Capacity gear, then perhaps you could have something like this: 1, 1 + 5% radius, 2, 2 +10% radius, 3 +5% damage.

I thought you wanted to increase the Sticky Grenades Radius to 3m as well. The decrease in Arc Grenade Radius would make me sad panada but it is understandable when you look at the radius of other grenades.

The Drone and FQE Turrets just got some buffs, not sure you if want to keep doing stuff to them or not.

After playing around with the Vorcha, the Flamer power is really under whelming.  Other than just increasing its damage output, I am not sure how it could be improved.

Here is my previous post for some more suggestions if you missed it before,  http://social.biowar...8909/7#12656017.  It has a suggestion for the Reegar as well.

[GodlessPaladin]

Spiffspoo wrote...
If you can edit in +damage or +radius into the Grenade Capacity gear, then perhaps you could have something like this: 1, 1 + 5% radius, 2, 2 +10% radius, 3 +5% damage.

  You can't.  The only thing about it that can be edited is how many grenades it gives you.

I think it's also possible to edit how many grenades thermal clips give you.

[Spiffspoo]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Spiffspoo wrote...
If you can edit in +damage or +radius into the Grenade Capacity gear, then perhaps you could have something like this: 1, 1 + 5% radius, 2, 2 +10% radius, 3 +5% damage.

  You can't.  The only thing about it that can be edited is how many grenades it gives you.

I think it's also possible to edit how many grenades thermal clips give you.

Aw dang, that really is going to put Grenades in a strange place then unless BW does some addition code changes to them.   I don't think it should be that hard to do, but you never know how they code these things.  And they only release code changes it seems in major patches and not the "weekly" multiplayer balances, so it would still be a while for that to happen.

Are you talking about the on use thermal clip equipment?  I thought those always gave you max grenades, so with the lower grenade capacity I don't think those need a change.  I barely see anyone use those things anyways unless it is in Solo or Speed Run videos.

[R0Gun13]

Good ideas, I like most of them (especially the rage length increase time). Couple of things though...

Why geth light melee doubled? 400 damage seems excessive compared to every other character.

And I'm not sure a turians base heavy melee should be higher than a krogans?

Modifié par R0Gun13, 23 juin 2012 - 10:40 .

[Mysterious Stranger 0.0]

R0Gun13 wrote...

Good ideas, I like most of them (especially the rage length increase time). Couple of things though...

Why geth light melee doubled? 400 damage seems excessive compared to every other character.

And I'm not sure a turians base heavy melee should be higher than a krogans?

Have you ever used geth light melee?

It's rather....Unpleasent. 

[GodlessPaladin]

Mysterious Stranger 0.0 wrote...

R0Gun13 wrote...

Good ideas, I like most of them (especially the rage length increase time). Couple of things though...

Why geth light melee doubled? 400 damage seems excessive compared to every other character.

And I'm not sure a turians base heavy melee should be higher than a krogans?

Have you ever used geth light melee?

It's rather....Unpleasent. 

This.

Geth light melee is slower than geth heavy melee (and significantly slower than everyone else's light melee except Phoenix characters), doesn't hit an area, and exposes you more.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 23 juin 2012 - 11:07 .

[R0Gun13]

Mysterious Stranger 0.0 wrote...

Have you ever used geth light melee?

It's rather....Unpleasent. 

GodlessPaladin wrote...

This.

Geth light melee is slower than geth heavy melee (and significantly slower than everyone else's light melee except Phoenix characters), doesn't hit an area, and exposes you more.

 

"It's rather....Unpleasent"    Ha! 

To be fair I have used it once or twice and never used it again unless an accident (I dont use geth much) so... point taken.

[molecularman]

Wonder if any of these will ever be implemented

[gaminazn]

Overload should have a rank 5 option of increasing damage of tech bursts by 75%. Knowing BW, if they even introduce such an option, it would be 50% though....

[GodlessPaladin]

Another possibility for a nerf to Grenade Gear that's possible with only ini changes.

Thermal Clip Pack Consumable
- Grenades restored reduced from 10 to 4

What do you think of that vs the previously suggested change?

Grenade Gear
- Capacity progression reduced from 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 to 1, 1, 2, 2, 3

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 24 juin 2012 - 12:20 .

[Atheosis]

molecularman wrote...

Wonder if any of these will ever be implemented

Fagnan actually informed the group that he and the team were discussing the suggested TC changes.  Not that that means they will actually implement them (or any of the others), but at least it means what we are doing isn't falling on deaf ears entirely.

[capn233]

I like the reduction for the thermal clip pack use. It is indeed awkward to have a gear progression where several levels don't give you anything whatsoever.

Plus I am going to nag you again about changing the Viper's specs in the original post since it now has more damage than the increased number

[Atheosis]

gaminazn wrote...

Overload should have a rank 5 option of increasing damage of tech bursts by 75%. Knowing BW, if they even introduce such an option, it would be 50% though....

I think they've avoided such evolutions because of disrupter ammo's ability to prime tech bursts.  

[rmccowen]

I admit that I haven't read through the entire thread, but I did read through the first couple of pages; Fortification isn't currently on the list, although it's a relatively weak power.

The best non-melee Krogan Soldier spec is currently 0/6/6/6/6, and that's unfortunate, but the opportunity cost of investing in Fortification is simply too high. The Durability/Power Synergy/Power Recharge spec is problematic: it tops out at only 20% DR, with a +20% power bonus and -20% recharge penalty. In order to make room for Fortification, you have to drop one power completely or two powers substantially--and frankly, every set of options for doing so stinks.

I think it should receive the same boosts Tech Armor got in the May 22 round--+10% DR and an increased bonus to power damage. In particular:

Fortification Power
- Base damage protection increased from 15% to 25%
- Evolution 3 power damage bonus increased from 20% to 30%
- Evolution 4 melee damage bonus increased from 30% to 40%

This would leave it still weaker than Tech Armor, but would make it far more attractive to take, and would correspondingly make far more builds viable.

[GodlessPaladin]

capn233 wrote...

I like the reduction for the thermal clip pack use. It is indeed awkward to have a gear progression where several levels don't give you anything whatsoever.

Plus I am going to nag you again about changing the Viper's specs in the original post since it now has more damage than the increased number

I will update it (and not just that part) when I have some time.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 24 juin 2012 - 12:28 .

[Atheosis]

rmccowen wrote...

I admit that I haven't read through the entire thread, but I did read through the first couple of pages; Fortification isn't currently on the list, although it's a relatively weak power.

The best non-melee Krogan Soldier spec is currently 0/6/6/6/6, and that's unfortunate, but the opportunity cost of investing in Fortification is simply too high. The Durability/Power Synergy/Power Recharge spec is problematic: it tops out at only 20% DR, with a +20% power bonus and -20% recharge penalty. In order to make room for Fortification, you have to drop one power completely or two powers substantially--and frankly, every set of options for doing so stinks.

I think it should receive the same boosts Tech Armor got in the May 22 round--+10% DR and an increased bonus to power damage. In particular:

Fortification Power
- Base damage protection increased from 15% to 25%
- Evolution 3 power damage bonus increased from 20% to 30%
- Evolution 4 melee damage bonus increased from 30% to 40%

This would leave it still weaker than Tech Armor, but would make it far more attractive to take, and would correspondingly make far more builds viable.

Heh, GP seems quite convinced its fine despite all my arguments to the contrary, so good luck convincing him of more drastic buffs than I originally proposed.

[Blaine Kodos]

I know we're not looking at Uncommons just yet, but this is a point I'd want to lay out before I forget:

The Scimitar is actually a full auto shotgun. However, its RoF when held down is strangely dramatically inferior to its RoF when you rapidly fire it as though it were semiautomatic. If possible, it would be great to bring up its automatic RoF to be equal to the semiauto. Not sure if automatic RoF is in the .ini files.

[GodlessPaladin]

Atheosis wrote...

rmccowen wrote...

I admit that I haven't read through the entire thread, but I did read through the first couple of pages; Fortification isn't currently on the list, although it's a relatively weak power.

The best non-melee Krogan Soldier spec is currently 0/6/6/6/6, and that's unfortunate, but the opportunity cost of investing in Fortification is simply too high. The Durability/Power Synergy/Power Recharge spec is problematic: it tops out at only 20% DR, with a +20% power bonus and -20% recharge penalty. In order to make room for Fortification, you have to drop one power completely or two powers substantially--and frankly, every set of options for doing so stinks.

I think it should receive the same boosts Tech Armor got in the May 22 round--+10% DR and an increased bonus to power damage. In particular:

Fortification Power
- Base damage protection increased from 15% to 25%
- Evolution 3 power damage bonus increased from 20% to 30%
- Evolution 4 melee damage bonus increased from 30% to 40%

This would leave it still weaker than Tech Armor, but would make it far more attractive to take, and would correspondingly make far more builds viable.

Heh, GP seems quite convinced its fine despite all my arguments to the contrary, so good luck convincing him of
more drastic buffs than I originally proposed.

I think that's a bit of a mischaracterization...

I didn't say it was great, I just said it's not quite as useless as some people make it out to be and that critiques should take that into account. The melee bonus is considerbly better than Tech Armor's (contrary to what some have said, often due to not quite understanding how the power works) and it makes Inferno Grenades hit ever-so-slightly harder.  And if you're opting out of Carnage you can forego the 30% cooldown thing for 10% extra DR.

I also said that I feel comparing it directly to Tech Armor could be looking at things the wrong way since a Krogan Soldier isn't choosing between Fortification and Tech Armor... they're choosing between putting points in Fortification or putting points in other options (probably choosing between points in Fortification and Carnage or some points in passives).   Powers should be considered in the context of the builds that utilize them.

It *would* however be fair to compare the Krogan Soldier package itself to, say, the Krogan Sentinel.

There are two main areas to consider balance for classes... internal balance, which has to do with competing investment incentives and maximizing the variety of competitively viable build options for a class, and external balance, which compares the usefulness of the better builds for a class with the rest of the metagame (such as the better builds for other classes).  So either we're talking about Fortification being worth investing in in the context of the Krogan Soldier, who does not have access to Tech Armor, or we're talking about adjusting the power level of the Krogan Soldier class relative to other classes.  Whether Tech Armor would be a better power than Fortification on the Krogan Soldier is irrelevant.  That was my point.

I'm not necessarily taking a hard stance that it should/should not be changed, I am trying to frame the discussion constructively.  *Shrug*

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 24 juin 2012 - 12:53 .

[Atheosis]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

It *would* however be fair to compare the Krogan Soldier itself to the Krogan Sentinel, but the Krogan Soldier already comes out on top in that equation.

You keep saying that, but it just isn't true.  Like I said in the group discussion:

Lift Grenade < Inferno Grenade
Incinerate = Carnage
Tech Armor >>>>> Fortification

I just can't begin to comprehend how you think Krogan Soldier is the clear cut winner in that comparison.  Besides, if I want to play a slow non-dodging class with Inferno Grenades (Krogan Soldier's only truly good power), I can just use a Batarian Soldier.  Or do you believe the Krogan Soldier should be markedly inferior to the Batarian Soldier?

Oh and to be clear, no I don't think Fortification is worth investing in on a Krogan Soldier, especially if you aren't planning on meleeing constantly.  And even if you are planning on going melee-heavy, I still think the Krogan Sentinel is superior due to its far greater durability.    

Modifié par Atheosis, 24 juin 2012 - 01:00 .

[GodlessPaladin]

Krogan Soldiers are not without advantages.  Batarians are probably better though.

Inferno grenades are better than Lift Grenades.  Fortification lets me one-shot things and ramp up rage more easily than Tech Armor, and the extra survivability from Tech Armor is an unneeded crutch.  Krogan Soldiers have better melee than Batarians and are more durable. 

This is all rather beside the point though, since again I feel that you saying that I said that Fortification is fine as is is really twisting my words.  Here's what I said:

I don't feel like Fortification should be directly compared to Tech Armor. It should be evaluated in terms of its utility to the Krogan Soldier (who is already a fair deal better than the Krogan Sentinel). Alternatively, we should be comparing the utility of Krogan Soldier builds to its most direct competitor... Batarian Soldier builds.

Your direct response to this post was

Again, you are wrong. Fortification is TERRIBLE.

Even though in that post I didn't actually say whether Fortification was good or not. I just said that it should not be directly balanced against Tech Armor because of a general design principle.  So I think you kinda missed the point =\\

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 24 juin 2012 - 01:13 .

[Atheosis]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Krogan Soldiers are not without advantages.  Batarians are probably still better though.

Incinerate and Carnage both get skipped.  Inferno grenades are massively better than Lift Grenades.  Fortification lets me one-shot things and ramp up rage more easily than Tech Armor, and the extra survivability from Tech Armor
is an unneeded crutch.  Krogan Soldiers have better melee than Batarians and are more durable. 

And again I feel that you saying that I said that Fortification is fine as is is twisting my words.  Here's what I actually said:

I don't feel like Fortification should be directly compared to Tech
Armor. It should be evaluated in terms of its utility to the Krogan
Soldier (who is already a fair deal better than the Krogan Sentinel).
Alternatively, we should be comparing the utility of Krogan Soldier
builds to its most direct competitor... Batarian Soldier builds.

An uneeded crutch?  GP you're an elite level MP player who can solo with most classes.  Are you balancing this game for you or for everyone?  Besides, being able to soak up more damage isn't a crutch, it's a toolset.  If I'm playing a max-tank Krogan Sentinel I know I'm the best choice to carry objects; I know I can go into the middle of a firefight and revive a teammate and most likely not get downed myself; I know that I can likely capture that point that is under moderate fire before I get dropped with a little bit of support.  Calling it a crutch is just way off.

And the reason I'm representing your position as "it's fine" is because I and many others have stated we think Fortification needs a buff.  In fact, I've offered very modest buff proposals (+5% base DR, -10% recharge penalty), and you continue to talk about the melee damage bonus as if it makes everything okay.  On top of that you've offered no buff ideas of your own.  So it's pretty natural to assume your position to be that "it's fine".

Anyway, I'm not wanting to get into an argument with you.  I'm just being honest.

[FataliTensei]

I really would prefer if grenade gear were left alone tbh, but I can see reasons why it would need to be toned down somewhat.

[GodlessPaladin]

Atheosis wrote...
And the reason I'm representing your position as "it's fine" is because I and many others have stated we think Fortification needs a buff.

  ...Uhm.  Wha?

In fact, I've offered very modest buff proposals (+5% base DR, -10% recharge penalty), and you continue to talk about the melee damage bonus as if it makes everything okay.  On top of that you've offered no buff ideas of your own.  So it's pretty natural to assume your position to be that "it's fine".

Anyway, I'm not wanting to get into an argument with you.  I'm just being honest.

You're being "honest" by making assumptions and then puttng words in my mouth and acting as if I am unwavering in said position?

What I was doing and continue to do is frame the discussion and highlight factors for consideration to further debate.  Just like I do in discussions of other abilities which I have supported buffs for.  A more accurate representation would be to say that I've not made up my mind about Fortification.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 24 juin 2012 - 01:25 .

[Atheosis]

GodlessPaladin wrote...
Even though in that post I didn't actually say whether Fortification was good or not. I just said that it should not be directly balanced against Tech Armor because of a general design principle.  So I think you kinda missed the point =

I didn't miss your point.  But you seem to think I only dislike the power because its massively inferior to Tech Armor.  That's certainly a thought that is present in miy mind, but the fact is that I dislike Fortification relative to Carnage because I never play Krogan Soldiers specced for melee.  So to me, the power is pretty much pointless, in both an internal and extrenal sense.  I get that it has its appeal for people who want to melee with their Krogan Soldier, but seeing as its a power you are automatically specced into, I tend to feel it shoule be a decent choice for ranged characters as well.  And to me it just isn't.

[Atheosis]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Atheosis wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Krogan Soldiers are not without advantages.  Batarians are probably still better though.

Incinerate and Carnage both get skipped.  Inferno grenades are massively better than Lift Grenades.  Fortification lets me one-shot things and ramp up rage more easily than Tech Armor, and the extra survivability from Tech Armor
is an unneeded crutch.  Krogan Soldiers have better melee than Batarians and are more durable. 

And again I feel that you saying that I said that Fortification is fine as is is twisting my words.  Here's what I actually said:

I don't feel like Fortification should be directly compared to Tech
Armor. It should be evaluated in terms of its utility to the Krogan
Soldier (who is already a fair deal better than the Krogan Sentinel).
Alternatively, we should be comparing the utility of Krogan Soldier
builds to its most direct competitor... Batarian Soldier builds.

An uneeded crutch?  GP you're an elite level MP player who can solo with most classes.  Are you balancing this game for you or for everyone?  Besides, being able to soak up more damage isn't a crutch, it's a toolset.  If I'm playing a max-tank Krogan Sentinel I know I'm the best choice to carry objects; I know I can go into the middle of a firefight and revive a teammate and most likely not get downed myself; I know that I can likely capture that point that is under moderate fire before I get dropped with a little bit of support.  Calling it a crutch is just way off.

And the reason I'm representing your position as "it's fine" is because I and many others have stated we think Fortification needs a buff.  In fact, I've offered very modest buff proposals (+5% base DR, -10% recharge penalty), and you continue to talk about the melee damage bonus as if it makes everything okay.  On top of that you've offered no buff ideas of your own.  So it's pretty natural to assume your position to be that "it's fine".

Anyway, I'm not wanting to get into an argument with you.  I'm just being honest.

You're being "honest" by making assumptions and then puttng words in my mouth and acting as if I am unwavering in said position?

Fine, I'm sorry if I misrepresented your position.  But you've made the same argument over and over about it "not being that bad" because of its melee damage bonus, and have never offered any buff ideas.  So honestly I'm at a loss as to what your position is.  When you argue something's merits and offer no ways to improve it, that seems to imply you think it's fine as is.  I guess I'm wrong on that conclusion, but you can understand how I got that impression yes?

I mean if you think it should be buffed, how do you think it should happen?