724 réponses à ce sujet

[Creighton72]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Creighton72 wrote...

You need to read your own melee changes. Either you posted the wrong numbers or I am crazy.

It's the latter.  You need to interpret numbers in a meaningful context.  That number is a small part in a larger equation.  Geth light melee is slower than some heavy melees.  Including the Geth's.  To say that "At 200 it's more powerful than most" is just... misguided.

What? Then why are you boosting the damage? Increase the speed of the given attack if speed is the problem. But I have not noticed the geth melee being that slow. I only use the GE and don't use his basic melee very often but have never had a problem with it. If your saying I shouldn't look at the numbers why are you posting the numbers? You said it was a weak attack and boosted the damage, I asume weak means it does not do enough damage, not that it is slow. I am not sure how increasing the damgae will make it faster.

But I am crazy right? Your talking about the numbers your posting the numbers, but I am suppose to ignore the numbers. Yes that makes sense. Thanks, your very insightful, next time i'll just read your mind to get the information you supposedly want out there. By the way to say 200 damage is more powerful than 165 damage. Is 100% accurate math genius. To say something is not powerful when you mean slow is innaccurate.

But hey I am crazy and that makes total sense to you, it does not make sense to the english language, but hey who cares, it's not what you say it's what your thinking and I am suppose to know that of course.

[molecularman]

FlowCytometry wrote...

Yeah, base dmg isn't everything.
You also have to consider the animation speed and weigh it vs. other
options like aoe/stagger ability, or extra DR offered by the heavy
version. In the case of Geth, their light melee is quite slow (due to
its long recovery) and doesn't offer any aoe or aoe stagger benefits
like the heavy melee pulse does (remember- its also competing for the
heavy melee in use, not simply vs. other class' light melee). Krogan
headbutt is quite a bit faster regardless.

Vs. PV/PA light melee-
their overall speed is similar to Geth's, just that the Geth's has a
long recovery, where the Phoenix's has a long windup.

So no problem there, I guess. Can't test it today anymore so I'll just take your word for it

Modifié par molecularman, 25 juin 2012 - 12:21 .

[Metal Vile]

molecularman wrote...

Hmm. Now that I think about it, 400 might not be completely balanced with phoenix light melee - the phoenix version seems to take longer yet they both would do the same damage, AFAIK

Phoenix Light Melee does 600 damage IIRC....  But it is only 1 hit, unlike most races who have a 3 hit combo.  In fact, that melee style is still generally better, as you can do 1-2 hits of light melee, and then hold the button to tack a Heavy Melee on the end. 

This really only works if your Light Melee hits manage to stagger the enemy though, so it only works reliably against Cerberus.  Reaper infantry only get stunned about half the time, and Geth infantry almost always just melee you back during your combo.

[GodlessPaladin]

Phoenix light melee does 400 damage according to the "whipmanmeleepassive" entry in the DLC ini. Interesting file name choices... I also proposed a buff for it, but haven't posted it up in the OP yet (the original melee rebalance didn't include Rebellion characters because I didn't have access to the hard game file data on their melee yet).

Other notes: Phoenix Light Melee tracks enemies much like most heavy melees, whereas the Geth light melee doesn't really. It also has very little recovery and you can combo off of it.  It also potentially serves a purpose e.g. not sending enemies flying like the whip melee does, letting you light-->heavy them to finish them and get the power synergy.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 25 juin 2012 - 12:38 .

[molecularman]

Metal Vile wrote...

molecularman wrote...

Hmm. Now that I think about it, 400 might not be completely balanced with phoenix light melee - the phoenix version seems to take longer yet they both would do the same damage, AFAIK

Phoenix Light Melee does 600 damage IIRC....  But it is only 1 hit, unlike most races who have a 3 hit combo.  In fact, that melee style is still generally better, as you can do 1-2 hits of light melee, and then hold the button to tack a Heavy Melee on the end. 

This really only works if your Light Melee hits manage to stagger the enemy though, so it only works reliably against Cerberus.  Reaper infantry only get stunned about half the time, and Geth infantry almost always just melee you back during your combo.

Oh. I've got no acces to game files right now so I might easily be mistaken but Narida's class builder at least seems to support 400 dmg.

Anyway, I take that back, they should be rather close to each other when you consider all the aspects

E: Ninja'd

Modifié par molecularman, 25 juin 2012 - 12:36 .

[GodlessPaladin]

Creighton72 wrote...
You gave the geth the most powerful light melee in the game by a mile. A 400 damage light melee? At 200 it's more powerful than most. So again your calling that a joke when it's one of the high end light melee attacks and you want it to be the highest in the game. 70 Points higher than a Krogan? Really?

Creighton72 wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Creighton72 wrote...

You need to read your own melee changes. Either you posted the wrong numbers or I am crazy.

It's the latter.  You need to interpret numbers in a meaningful context.  That number is a small part in a larger equation.  Geth light melee is slower than some heavy melees.  Including the Geth's.  To say that "At 200 it's more powerful than most" is just... misguided.

What? Then why are you boosting the damage? Increase the speed of the given attack if speed is the problem. But I have not noticed the geth melee being that slow. I only use the GE and don't use his basic melee very often but have never had a problem with it. If your saying I shouldn't look at the numbers why are you posting the numbers? You said it was a weak attack and boosted the damage, I asume weak means it does not do enough damage, not that it is slow. I am not sure how increasing the damgae will make it faster.

But I am crazy right? Your talking about the numbers your posting the numbers, but I am suppose to ignore the numbers. Yes that makes sense. Thanks, your very insightful, next time i'll just read your mind to get the information you supposedly want out there. By the way to say 200 damage is more powerful than 165 damage. Is 100% accurate math genius. To say something is not powerful when you mean slow is innaccurate.

But hey I am crazy and that makes total sense to you, it does not make sense to the english language, but hey who cares, it's not what you say it's what your thinking and I am suppose to know that of course.

You're not really helping your case here...

[Atheosis]

Heh, it's not like Geth are going to be running around scoring 200k points spamming their light melee after that buff...

[samb]

Has anyone altered the files like Godless suggested and tested the results? You know to see if those would be as balanced as or broken as one says? Or is that risking rules violations? It is a probably the most definitive way test the changes rather than debating.

[GodlessPaladin]

M4v3r1ck2 wrote...

One skill that I don't see discussed is Concussive Shot. It needs some serious buffs, and it used to stagger phantoms, but now it doesn't? O.O

  It used to be able to stagger Phantoms?  When and how, and what changed?

In addition, Rank 5 and Rank 6 of CS are really ill-conceived. One damages a frozen target, which means either you better have Cryo ammo or someone else better have it or Cryo Blast. That's hardly a good skill. Rank 6 where it takes on the ammo type you have? Again, that is not very practical.

CS should be stronger; it should stagger phantoms, and it should have much more viable choices on Ranks 5 and 6. As it stands now, people don't even take it beyond Rank 3. The Rank 4 damage/force increase is minimal.

One of the problems with CS is that there aren't really much of any choices at rank 5 and 6 at all.  Something that only affects "frozen" targets (rather than chilled) is pretty useless, and Amplifiacation does, well, nothing at all. 

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 25 juin 2012 - 07:54 .

[capn233]

Atheosis wrote...

Heh, it's not like Geth are going to be running around scoring 200k points spamming their light melee after that buff...

If anyone tries spamming the light melee I would predict more like 2 points scored.

[Atheosis]

Concussive Shot is fine in overall power. If it weren't, there wouldn't be builds based primarily around it easily scoring 100k+ on Gold. I'd love to see them fix and/or alter the useless evolutions, but all the same, the power is quite well balanced presently.

[hijackerjack]

Dang GodlessPaladin, this is an insane thread. Just read through your first 2 posts and I think I couldn't agree more with any of those changes. Good work! Collaborative work at its best!

[Atheosis]

M4v3r1ck2 wrote...
Re: Builds just around CS... I searched for HS builds, and many people go so far as to put zero points into CS. Personally I think that is a mistake, as did several others; however, the fact remains that CS is not as fine as it ought to be.

Are you telling me you've never heard of CS spam?  

[FlowCytometry]

Atheosis wrote...

M4v3r1ck2 wrote...
Re: Builds just around CS... I searched for HS builds, and many people go so far as to put zero points into CS. Personally I think that is a mistake, as did several others; however, the fact remains that CS is not as fine as it ought to be.

Are you telling me you've never heard of CS spam?  

I think CS needs a bit more for its latter evolves, yeah. Right now it has one decent niche (w/ disruptor ammo).. and that's about it.

[rmccowen]

M4v3r1ck2 wrote...

CS -- I agree it's quasi-fine up until Rank 4, where the returns are pretty minimal; I say *quasi* because its damage is pretty low; it doesn't stagger, and while it can be fast, it isn't like Throw, which it seems to want to be. But CS is nowhere near fine on Ranks 5 and 6. I could easily be misunderstanding the skill, so please clarify why CS is fine. I'm interested in learning, and I have a lot to learn.

Re: Builds just around CS... I searched for HS builds, and many people go so far as to put zero points into CS. Personally I think that is a mistake, as did several others; however, the fact remains that CS is not as fine as it ought to be.

I'm one of those people, but it's not really a problem with CS itself. Read on...

One thing I see is a lack of synergy of CS with AR.

This. They compete for cooldown, and you can't use CS at all while AR is ticking over; when I did have CS on my Soldier, I almost never found myself wanting to use CS instead of Marksman.

On gold the DR is great, but the 500 restore is pretty meager.

You're missing the real beauty of the Shield Restore evolution: it gives you on-demand access to shield gate. It's not 500 shields, but rather how ever many shields the next dollop of incoming damage would take out. It's powerful.

I think AR could be more interesting if it worked more like Tech Armor or the Krogan soldier's Fortification and gave a slowdown to skill usage, which at Rank 6 could be lessened by 30%. Then, with CS given something more interesting at Ranks 4, and especially at Ranks 5 and 6, there might be a very strong synergy between the skills.

Actually, I agree, although its benefits are a little strong for a passive skill. It would at least not lock you out of your only spammable skill, and would open up a new build.

Unfortunately that's out of the spec of what can be done with the weekly balance changes--such a change would be a major one, and would have to wait for a major update.

[ShinTheZero]

I have read all the changes and because I'm limited to certain classes and weapons I only can say something about those:

Power Changes:

Biotic Charge:
- Do not raise the Weapon Damage because it will make the Vanguard obviously stronger than any class with any weapon after a successful charge. This will make the Vanguard to a second coming of the current Infiltrator.

Tactical Cloak:
- The concept about the damage is right, but wouldn't be better to raise headshot damage so "skilled" players are redeemed properly? Like giving TC from the beginning a 20% Headshot bonus?
- The duration is nonsense in any possible way:
First of all, with 4 seconds + Rank 3 30% bonus you get 5,2 seconds. Now, you have to chose if you want to get duration or damage. But both of them would make the use of an Infiltrator in one way obselete.
- Taking duration means dropping the proposed 30% damage bonus which is not acceptable after the changes with Rank 6 evolution. That 10% of the Base Bonus will not compensate for this major lost of fire power.
- Taking damage means you're heavily limited in doing anything for team. 5.2 sec are not enough to seize Mission markers or revive allies properly if they are surrounded by enemies as you might think about cloaking, going there and revive them. Within 5.2 sec it's nearly impossible. With this the aspect, that Infiltrators are not team friendly, is pretty much set.
So, do not change TCs duration at all. The damage reduction despite of raising the damage on the SRs is still already a nerf for them, nerfing their usefulness is just harassing them in every way possible. It discourages players to do more team play as an Infiltrator and that is really bad.

[Lexa_D]

extra 10% damage from charge will make Vanguard OP? You must be joking.

Vanguards (at least HV and DV) pick power damage over weapon damage in racial passives, these 10% wouldn't even compensate that. And comparing 25% boost with 90% boost to Infis from TC is just bad.

Actually your angst about TC paths split shows that they were proposed correctly - it DOES make you choose between safety and damage.

Please try to provide arguments instead of opinions, noone cares about the latter.

[ShinTheZero]

Lexa_D wrote...

extra 10% damage from charge will make Vanguard OP? You must be joking.

Vanguards (at least HV and DV) pick power damage over weapon damage in racial passives, these 10% wouldn't even compensate that. And comparing 25% boost with 90% boost to Infis from TC is just bad.

Actually your angst about TC paths split shows that they were proposed correctly - it DOES make you choose between safety and damage.

Please try to provide arguments instead of opinions, noone cares about the latter.

Have you ever considered, what the Vanguard do, before he get the bonus? Ah yes, he charges.
Unlike the Infiltrator, who has no other effect except the weapon bonus, Vanguards profit from the charge and barrier refresh. Considering this, the Vanguard with a decent close range weapon runs havoc among the enemies.

That TC path is nonsense. Infiltrator have only use, if they get both aspect in a proper way, otherwise you can take them out completly.
Then let me ask you: Do you have to decide for Biotic Charge if you want to have safety or damage? Ah wait it gives you both! Considering this you would have to do the same proposal for the Vanguard as well. That power makes you invunerable during the teleportation, refreshes your barrier and makes it an ideal plattform for biotics.

Before you're trying to say think about it and then do it. The same goes for anyone who keeps whining about nerf and buff something. Before you cannot show anyone both pro and cons about a class/weapon, your argument is just invalid because your rambling is just a cryout born from jealousy about it and your argument is one-sided.

[GodlessPaladin]

This week's changes show that Bioware is listening to the suggestions of our discussion group, adopting a large buff to Human Adept melee, partly implementing the suggested change to ultra rare weapon weight ranges, and the Tactical Cloak nerf being pretty similar to our suggestion (though a bit more severe). 

One thing I'd point out though is that the rank 6 nerf was really intended to go alongside a corresponding buff to sniper rifles.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 26 juin 2012 - 11:20 .

[MorinthSamara]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

This week's changes show that Bioware is listening to the suggestions of our discussion group, adopting a large buff to Human Adept melee, partly implementing the suggested change to ultra rare weapon weight ranges, and the Tactical Cloak nerf being pretty similar to our suggestion (though a bit more severe). 

One thing I'd point out though is that the rank 6 nerf was really intended to go alongside a corresponding buff to sniper rifles.

Hey GP you should get a job in game design.
If BW has you on the devs, we wouldn't have so many buff/nerf troubles.

[FlowCytometry]

Yeah I am disappointed that they didn't bring up SRs baseline for everyone to compensate. But its great to see reasonable suggestions be heeded. I for one like that they reduced the top-end weight of some of the URs- that was a good move.
Here's to more good changes next week.