724 réponses à ce sujet

[Grunt_Platform]

Hypertion wrote...

oh and i personally think the Incisor would do better with a ROF increase rather than a damage bonus.

the problem most people have is getting all shots to land on a single target, atm the ROF doesnt allow that, so most people ignore it..

if you ever try the Incisor on a Turian Soldier with ROF bonuses maxed you would think "this would be great on infiltrators" untill you realize that the ROF on bursts is only due to Marksman.


So imo..

Incisor Sniper Rifle..
- Rate Of fire Increased from 450 to 800
- Refire time Increased from 0.15 to 0.4 or 0.3 or so. (Needs to be increased to balance the DPS increase due to ROF increase)

these changes would vastly improve the ROF during bursts making it easier to hit targets thanks to the faster time, while balancing it out have a greater duration between bursts. the refire times i have listed is faster than the Falcon can do.

the result is you can do a quick high damage burst like the discription, with the increased delay between them preventing the gun from being Over Powered.

The recoil is also a factor. If you ramp up its rate of fire like that without also adjusting the recoil you start getting the same problems SMGs have—It'll go off target faster than the user can adjust, which is even harder to handle in a burst weapon. The Turian isn't noticing it as much since he's also getting massive accuracy and stability bonuses, and Geth get similar (but smaller) accuracy bonuses from Hunter Mode...  Plus I'm just not liking the longer refire time. I'd rather have a smaller ROF boost (500~520 maybe?) with the same refire time. the speed of bursts on a GI is good right now.

Also: every sniper rifle right now is a touch underpowered. A 15% boost for any of them would simply bring them in line with where they were before Tactical Cloak's rebalancing. Which was a fine level for most.

Modifié par EvanKester, 29 juin 2012 - 10:39 .

[nicethugbert]

Incisor Sniper Rifle
- Damage increased from [74.6-93.3] to [85.8-107.3]

Raptor Sniper Rifle
- Damage increased from [78.2-97.7] to [89.9-112.4]

Increasing the damage is all well and good, but, I think it is not as satisfactory as it could be. There has to be some sort of logic behind the weapons as a whole and some distinction among the weapons for the purpose of fun. I single out Raptor and Incisor because they are exactly, or nearly exact, in all their parameters except for damage, weight, and recoil. And, very importantly, they are both uncommon weapons, which to me implies that they should be on some sort of level playing field, most likely, DPS with accuracy and reload time factored in. They both have the same accuracy, ROF, and feel like they have the same reload time to me.

However, Incisor has much more recoil and less damage. That is not a good distinction for a weapon in the same rarity as another. It's like the bad luck weapon between the two, no fun at all there. Also, it makes no sense, if I know a little something about guns. As far as I know, in the real world, recoil, damage, and stopping power go hand in hand, all other things being equal. Sure, you can have technology that reduces recoil without reducing stopping power and damage, especially when space magic is involved. But, in this game we have rarity categories. I think for those categories to be meaningful, when you sever the connection between related parameters, such as stopping power, recoil, and damage, you have to put the weapon in a higher rarity category.

So, in light of all this, my suggestion for raptor and incisor in order to keep them both uncommon weapons and siblings of a sort, is to increase the stopping power and the magazine size on the incisor to account for the greater weight and recoil that the it has compared to the raptor. NOT THE DAMAGE, or else everyone will clearly gravitate towards the raptor over the incisor because of simple damage differences instead of using less tangible personal preferences.

Preferably, there should be formulas to accomplish this for all the weapons. But, I don't have those right now.

Modifié par nicethugbert, 29 juin 2012 - 11:22 .

[Atheosis]

EvanKester wrote...
Also: every sniper rifle right now is a touch underpowered. A 15% boost for any of them would simply bring them in line with where they were before Tactical Cloak's rebalancing. Which was a fine level for most.

I assume this is excluding the Krysae right?

[Metal Vile]

I think something important that has not been addressed yet is the fact that the Kishock is now essentially a pointless gun. Why?

What is the purpose or niche of the Kishock?

- High single shot damage
- Bypasses Shield Gate and Guardian Shields natively
- Increased Headshot Multiplier
- Has no hip-fire penalty for a Sniper Rifle

Looks good..... but now compare it to the Graal. They have the same weight category. The Kishock does more TOTAL damage per shot, but 20% of its damage comes from a 10(?) sec DoT. Granted, the Kishock can also be charged for extra damage as well. But the true heart of the Kishock is 2 things; big headshot damage and bypassing shield gate.

But what are the most important enemies you can headshot? Phantoms. And it's well established that you can kill a Phantom with a charged Graal headshot, no problem. And, assuming you equip Smart Choke, if you charge your shot and aim at the Guardian mail slot, you will probably kill him 7 times out of 10 in 1 shot.

So really, what is the Kishock offering that the Graal doesn't do equally well or better? Ability to kill Guardians with contemptous ease at long distance. And the ability to benefit from Rank 6 TC bonus. And..... thats about it, really. Free scope, I guess? But most of that is offset by the Graal's ability to get headshots FAR more easily (lol its a shotgun) and the fact that it gets 3 shots per clip instead of the Kishock's 1.

By "fixing" the Kishock's ability to land critical hits against bosses, it is essentially a purposeless gun. It has no niche, other than the ability to show off if you're good with it, as it is not an easy gun to master.

I would say the most obvious choices to buff it would be to decrease it's weight ratio to match the Revenant. Also, perhaps shorten the time necessary to gain full damage from the DoT effect. 4-5 seconds would be much better than 10.

What say you?

Modifié par Metal Vile, 29 juin 2012 - 02:35 .

[Grunt_Platform]

Atheosis wrote...

EvanKester wrote...
Also: every sniper rifle right now is a touch underpowered. A 15% boost for any of them would simply bring them in line with where they were before Tactical Cloak's rebalancing. Which was a fine level for most.

I assume this is excluding the Krysae right?

Naturally.

[hijackerjack]

Atheosis wrote...

EvanKester wrote...
Also: every sniper rifle right now is a touch underpowered. A 15% boost for any of them would simply bring them in line with where they were before Tactical Cloak's rebalancing. Which was a fine level for most.

I assume this is excluding the Krysae right?

Krysae is a bazooka lol. 

[capn233]

The Krysae was the second worst idea the ME team had after the StarChild.

What's strange is that a Widow X can't body-shot a basic despite it being an alleged 39kg anti-materiel rifle designed for stopping armored vehicles.

[GodlessPaladin]

Considering revising the Singularity suggestion.

Singularity Power
- Number of enemies that can be lifted simultaneously increased from 2 to 3
- Base radius increased from 1 meter to 2 meters
- Base singularity duration reduced from 25 seconds to 10 seconds
- Base hold duration increased from 6 to 8
- Evolution 3 damage per second increased from 50 to 150 80
- Evolution 6 detonation damage increased from 500 to 650

EDIT: Okay, an analysis of the new Singularity suggestion.
- It has a bigger radius and can potentially trap more enemies. Note that the evolution that increases enemies lifted apparently doesn't lift additional enemies. Whatever.
- With Duration spec it will hold an enemy for 9 seconds, then drop them, then detonate while they're getting up. I don't think the hold duration change was actually needed.
- With Radius spec you get a 2.9m radius, and can add expand on top of that (not 100% sure on the mechanics of expand).
- I scaled down the damage since it already looks like it can kill a gold Cannibal on a good day with the extra force damage in my tests. It's hard for me to do precise calculations since I don't precisely know how the force mechanics deal damage. Also, it seems like Damage is already a decent evolution compared to recharge speed. The radius / lifted enemies change also increases its potential. Detonate also seemed to do more than its list damage in my tests (looking it up, Detonate has a Force of 600 in Coalesced, which means it's doing at least 560 base damage).
- With the duration change, Detonate spec actually has a potential to do something once in a blue moon. Expand exchanges some duration (a small hit) for better control and a larger radius over its duration.
- Allowed Singularity to lift an additional enemy since the evolution that says it allows the lifting of additional enemies actually... doesn't do it. 

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 29 juin 2012 - 06:33 .

[capn233]

The revision is good.

It makes the whole power more coherent, especially with the right upgrade paths.

[Hypertion]

Sniper Rifles themselves were ALWAYS underpowered but simply were ok purely due to Tactical Cloaks unique bonuses.

Recoil Reduction would be a good addition too and i forgot about that last night. but remember there are still equipment options to reduce it up to 30%.

as for the refire change, its extreme but it would be needing a change if we made the gun work as its discription describes. otherwise the guns DPS could Seriously go through the roof. simply put my change is to change the function of the gun to closer to its discription, not improve the gun overall. there is already a damage boost suggested that can be added to this change in order to give the gun the boost needed to improve it.

Simply put the gun should fire its Bursts Extemely fast with great accuracy, only having to deal with recoil after the shots are fired. In other words the guns discription.

so.

Incisor
- Damage increased from [74.6-93.3] to [85.8-107.3]
- Rate of Fire Increased from 450 to 700
- Refire time increased from 0.15 to 0.2
- Recoil Reduced from 0.432 to 0.216
- Zoomed Recoil Reduced from 0.437 to 0.218


the over all effect is to allow the gun again to change how it plays to make it more closer to its discription and play in a way that more people would like.

atm the recoil and rof is such that most people dont fire it at its max refire anyways, so the increase to refire would only help the gun from being attacked by the Nerf Crowd

the exact result of all changes is basically totalling to just the damage increase and the fact the DPS during bursts is much faster but the overall DPS remaining unchanged.
 
the gun would do good damage and do it very quickly during bursts, with less recoil. with the time between bursts increased slightly to compensate.

also while doing the stuff for recoil i noticed that most sniper rifles follow the oppsite nature of other guns reguarding recoil.. most recoil LESS when scoped which i am totally ok with but the incisor doesnt follow which amuses me.

alot of changes but overall they would greatly improve the weapon without overpowering it.

[GodlessPaladin]

Updated melee damage suggestion, added spreadsheet.

[GodlessPaladin]

Just realized I made a mistake with the sniper rifle change suggestion. 1.15 * 1.25 != 1.4, it's 1.4375. 1.12 * 1.25 = 1.4, or 1.166666(etc) * 1.2 = 1.4

So, the suggestion should be for the sniper rifle damage bonus from rank 6 of Tactical Cloak to be 20%, or the suggestion for the sniper rifle buff should be 12% across the board, not 15%.

Whoops!

So the question is... should Tactical Cloak's rank 6 bonus be cut down slightly more to 1.2x and retain the sniper buff suggestions we have right now (or maybe even increase them to 16% or 16.6%), or should we keep the Tactical Cloak rank 6 bonus where it is and reduce the sniper rifle buff suggestion to 12%?

I'm leaning towards the former, but what do you guys think?

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 30 juin 2012 - 12:11 .

[Xaijin]

The rifle itself should be boosted. The tac bonus is an implied ability of a crack shooter to line up the perfect shot.

A couple of the soldier classes get snipes as their default loadout, the rifle should be able to compete with a heavy pistol. Bonus should go to the weapon.

Sniper zoom also needs to be scaled back.

Modifié par Xaijin, 30 juin 2012 - 12:53 .

[Rokayt]

Your Disciple upgrade would make it higher damage per second then the scimitar.

Perhaps buffing the scimitars total damage from (????-354) (ALMOST as low as the Carnifexes damage) to (???-426) while buffing its rate of fire to (100 RPM) to (120 RPM) to keep it from falling too far behind, despite it being a heavyer, less accurate weapon (Almost half as accurate!) that does less damage?

If the Vindicators firing delay was cut in half, and its rate of fire buffed to 700 RPM (+50%), it could easily compete with the more user freindly, high damage mattock thats in its weight range.

Modifié par Rokayt, 30 juin 2012 - 01:03 .

[Grunt_Platform]

I'd rather adjust the baseline buff for sniper rifles to 12% than meddle with Tactical Cloak's 6th evolution any further. But many sniper rifles could still use better damage boosts.

[GodlessPaladin]

EvanKester wrote...

I'd rather adjust the baseline buff for sniper rifles to 12% than meddle with Tactical Cloak's 6th evolution any further.

  Why do you say that? 

[capn233]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Why do you say that? 

If you take any more damage out of Cloak it should come from Rank 4's damage evolution.

Some of the lower powered rifles could stand a 15% increase, and really the high damage ones wouldn't be so bad with it as well but if you only want 12% it isn't a game breaking difference.  Interestingly, if the really high powered, high weight rifles had more damage then that would also make Rank 4 Duration more appealing to someone with a big rifle since extra damage bonuses from Cloak are going to be overkill on most basic to mids...

edit: and one other thing.  The math still isn't the same.  You guys didn't take a little out of the base cloak damage... so you would have to consider the 10% additive damage loss that is also a part of the cloak change as implemented.

Modifié par capn233, 30 juin 2012 - 01:38 .

[Mindlog]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

EvanKester wrote...

I'd rather adjust the baseline buff for sniper rifles to 12% than meddle with Tactical Cloak's 6th evolution any further.

  Why do you say that? 

There's already more than enough reason to skip the last two ranks of Tactical Cloak.

[Rokayt]

Balance with being more diverse in your skill-set has been restored Paladin. Tact-Cloak could be given a rest till the sniper buffs kick in.

[Grunt_Platform]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

EvanKester wrote...

I'd rather adjust the baseline buff for sniper rifles to 12% than meddle with Tactical Cloak's 6th evolution any further.

  Why do you say that? 

A couple reasons:
1- Fagnan pointed out that the balance team doesn't like to make too many adjustments to related powers and weapons at the same time. Making cloak's 6th evolution a constantly moving target just prolongs the balancing process for sniper rifles.
2- 25% is just a good appealing number, and it's one that is already balanced for the Krysae's current level of strength.
3- The playerbase is reeling from the nerfs Cloak has already seen. I just think it's preferable to focus on the current buffs and getting people their "one shot, one kill" abilities back. It'll make people happier and get sniper rifles where they ought to be quicker.

That said, considering the tactical cloak damage 'nerf' was steeper than expected, there's a little more head room to buff sniper rifles than expected. Even the Krysae has a little more wiggle room (though it's fine as-is). We've gone from a damage spec cloak giving snipers  266% damage to 225%. A 15% damage buff would still leave most sniper rifles slightly behind their previous damage values (about 258.75% of their current damage). That's not factoring in passives, consumables or mods, mind.

I think 12-15% as a minimum buff to sniper rifle damage is just a good starting point. The Black Widow and Valiant are good enough that they can sit at the minimum, even if it's a slight nerf overall.. but the other sniper rifles were already having problems competing with pistols, and were generally outclassed by the big two.

Modifié par EvanKester, 30 juin 2012 - 02:08 .

[GodlessPaladin]

As EvanKester has pointed out, it does even out some due to the 10% base damage reduction.

1 * (1 + 0.9 (old base) + 0.3 (rail amp) + 0.15 (gear amp) + 0.225 (Advanced Hardware) + 0.25 (High Caliber Barrel) + 0.175 (hunter mode damage spec)) * 1.4 (old Ev 6) = 420% damage

1.15 * (1 + 0.8 (new base) + 0.3 (rail amp) + 0.15 (gear amp) + 0.225 (Advanced Hardware) + 0.25 (High Caliber Barrel) + 0.175 (hunter mode damage spec)) * 1.25 (new Ev 6) = ~417% damage

1.12 * (1 + 0.8 (new base) + 0.3 (rail amp) + 0.15 (gear amp) + 0.225 (Advanced Hardware) + 0.25 (High Caliber Barrel) + 0.175 (hunter mode damage spec)) * 1.25 (new Ev 6) = 406% damage

1 * (1 + 0.8 (new base) + 0.3 (rail amp) + 0.15 (gear amp) + 0.225 (Advanced Hardware) + 0.25 (High Caliber Barrel) + 0.175 (hunter mode damage spec)) * 1.4 (old Ev 6) = 406% damage.

1.1666 repeating * (1 + 0.8 (new base) + 0.3 (rail amp) + 0.15 (gear amp) + 0.225 (Advanced Hardware) + 0.25 (High Caliber Barrel) + 0.175 (hunter mode damage spec)) * 1.2 (alternative new ev 6) = 406% damage.

I left out ammo powers because I'm not 100% sure how they fit into the damage equation. However, whether they're additive or multiplicative the old version will still come out ahead in damage, at least with the rank 3 values. 

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 30 juin 2012 - 02:36 .

[Grunt_Platform]

Looks like 15% is a good baseline, especially for the already top tier snipers. A 3% effective nerf to their top-end damage won't make a meaningful difference.

On the subject of sniper rifles... I just tried out the Incisor on a Turian soldier (solo, bronze, fire rate and damage spec, etc.) and I gotta say.. not blown away. It's handling is perfect, mind. With a 55% reduction to recoil it basically has none. The rate of fire with a 50% bonus from Marksman was fun, and yeah, it was really deadly under those conditions.. but I can't imagine what you'd run into if you upped its base rate of fire to those levels. Even on Bronze, it took all three headshots to kill an assault trooper, even using the extended barrel and an Operative Pack I.

The real things the Incisor needs are a much weaker scope, and a bit more damage per bullet. Everything else the gun has is just fine already. A 15% damage buff would probably be enough to put it where it needs to be.

EDIT: Tested again with a damage spec'd Salarian and yep. Its handling and rate of fire are fine. Less zoom, a bit more damage... and maybe a larger magazine size? 15 shots sounds like a lot, but that's only 5 trigger pulls. I dunno. I'll move this to the discussion group. Got a lot better info now than I had before.

Modifié par EvanKester, 30 juin 2012 - 03:14 .

[Metal Vile]

Here's a weird question that I guess is more of a mechanics thing, but could be relevant towards balance issues, particularly for Burst-fire weapons like the Incisor: How does recoil affect a semi-automatic weapon compared to a burst-fire one?

When I look at the stats for, say the Raptor, it clearly has significantly more recoil than the Incisor ( Raptor is 1 compared to Incisor's .432), and yet the recoil is ALWAYS more of a problem for the Incisor. If you use a rapid-click macro to fire a weapon like the Raptor at or near max RoF, does it have muzzle climb that actually impacts your aim significantly? Because it seems that it doesn't.

Upon looking over the weapon sheet data, the only guess I can make (because I'm not entirely sure what EVERY category means) is that the last column "Recoil Rate" is actually the speed at which recoil fades from the weapon. This is based on the fact that the semi-auto weapons generally have the highest values for this stat (Predator has 2000!!, Mattock has 1350). However, it brings up 2 additional questions;

1) The Hornet's Recoil Rate is quite high (575), yet it still has semi-significant recoil issues. I'm guessing this is a product of the fact that the Hornet has an extremely high RoF (1000). Or is there some other way that the game inherently interacts differently with "true" semi-auto weapons compared to burst fire or rapid fire weapons?

2) Assuming that "Recoil Rate" is, in fact, Recoil fade speed, could this value be increased significantly to have a beneficial effect on the Incisor?

[Hypertion]

Raptor has Recoil Fade at least according to the Spreadsheet.

meaning it resettles back to where the gun was origonally pointing after jumping.

the Incisor doesnt seem to have this which might be part of the issue.

[capn233]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

As EvanKester has pointed out, it does even out some due to the 10% base damage reduction.

I'm on ignore so I can type whatever I want.

I left out ammo powers because I'm not 100% sure how they fit into the damage equation. However, whether they're additive or multiplicative the old version will still come out ahead in damage, at least with the rank 3 values. 

Ammo powers are a separate call, so they shouldn't go in the equation.  All except Incendiary are applied before weapon damage (incendiary is DOT after the gun damage).  That is why ammo powers can make it appear that you have a slight shieldgate bypass.  The math should simply be times base, supposedly after the level adjustment and also passive power damage increases apply (at least in SP... don't know if Power Amps apply).

Modifié par capn233, 30 juin 2012 - 04:22 .