724 réponses à ce sujet

[Grunt_Platform]

capn233 wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

As EvanKester has pointed out, it does even out some due to the 10% base damage reduction.

I'm on ignore so I can type whatever I want.

Eh, we wrote the same things in a short span of time, but my post had rough numbers. I don't think anybody's intentionally ignoring you. I was composing my post when you submitted yours, I think.


EDIT: One thing that'd be nice to know is the exact mechanics behind recoil and accuracy loss. They are clearly separate things as far as the game engine is concerned.

Modifié par EvanKester, 30 juin 2012 - 04:25 .

[capn233]

EvanKester wrote...

Eh, we wrote the same things in a short span of time, but my post had rough numbers. I don't think anybody's intentionally ignoring you. I was composing my post when you submitted yours, I think.

It is not a big deal and that is just a joke.

[Grunt_Platform]

capn233 wrote...
It is not a big deal and that is just a joke.

Just covering my bases to be careful 

Back on topic, I am pretty curious about the details of the gun firing mechanics. For one thing, accuracy loss and recoil are both huge factors for assault rifles, and all high-ROF weapons, and the game's current balance appears to completely ignore this.

There's pretty much no excuse for the Revenant to do as little damage per bullet as it does when most classes will be hard pressed to hit with even half of them.

[Hypertion]

Just thought of a good buff for the Grall!

Grall Spike Thrower
- Charged Shot Multiplyer increased from 200% to 250%

Increase the Charged Shot Muliplier from 2 to 2.5


its the only weapon that feels like its weaker when fired fully charged at times. Everything else has a really noticeable effect when fully charged but the grall seems to lack that.

this change would mean a fully charged shot from the grall would do slightly more damage than a normal shot from the GPS. Since you can Ignore Armor and get headshots with the grall that might make it a better choice for some characters.


the math would result in a fully charged shot at lvl X being 1500. this is vs the 1428 normal damage on the lvl X GPS and the 1648 on the Claymore. Since the shotgun takes 2 seconds to fully charge this change would round out pretty well.



idk maybe my origonal idea of a base damage boost would be better but the Grall REALLY needs something to make it stand out.

atm Uncharged shots deal 600 damage with some of that being placed in a DOT, this is ok for little targets but on big bosses the option to charge just isnt enough of a boost in damage overall.

Modifié par Hypertion, 30 juin 2012 - 05:13 .

[Grunt_Platform]

Hypertion wrote...
Increase the Charged Shot Muliplier from 2 to 2.5


its the only weapon that feels like its weaker when fired fully charged at times. Everything else has a really noticeable effect when fully charged but the grall seems to lack that.

this change would mean a fully charged shot from the grall would do slightly more damage than a normal shot from the GPS. Since you can Ignore Armor and get headshots with the grall that might make it a better choice for some characters..

Are you taking into account that the GPS's extra projectiles do reduced damage? Without mods, the Graal deals 600 and the GPS deals 642.7. The Graal's charged shots are already out-damaging unchaged GPS shots.

[Metal Vile]

Hypertion wrote...

Just thought of a good buff for the Grall!

Grall Spike Thrower
- Charged Shot Multiplyer increased from 200% to 250%

Increase the Charged Shot Muliplier from 2 to 2.5


its the only weapon that feels like its weaker when fired fully charged at times. Everything else has a really noticeable effect when fully charged but the grall seems to lack that.

this change would mean a fully charged shot from the grall would do slightly more damage than a normal shot from the GPS. Since you can Ignore Armor and get headshots with the grall that might make it a better choice for some characters.


the math would result in a fully charged shot at lvl X being 1500. this is vs the 1428 normal damage on the lvl X GPS and the 1648 on the Claymore. Since the shotgun takes 2 seconds to fully charge this change would round out pretty well.



idk maybe my origonal idea of a base damage boost would be better but the Grall REALLY needs something to make it stand out.

atm Uncharged shots deal 600 damage with some of that being placed in a DOT, this is ok for little targets but on big bosses the option to charge just isnt enough of a boost in damage overall.

Is that true?  I only thought the Kishock had a significant DoT component to its damage.  IF true, then I'm definintely not against a buff like that, but it only reinforces my assertion from the previous page.  The Kishock is even MORE useless if the Graal gets buffed.  It NEEDS something to differentiate it from the pack.  

Its main offensive role is superceded by the Graal (which is arguably better at it), while the only unique aspect is being a One-Shot, quick reloading Sniper (thus benefits from Rank 6 TC).  It's not enough to give the gun appeal outside of die-hard users who just like harpooning stuff (as funny as it is ).

EDIT: Also, Evan mentioned something really important: the second and third projectiles only deal 30% damage if they all strike the same target.  Did you include that in the calculation?

Modifié par Metal Vile, 30 juin 2012 - 05:49 .

[Hypertion]

oh. your Origonal post can be changed for Sentry Turrets and the Combat drone now Godless^^

[Grunt_Platform]

And no: the Graal does not cause bleed damage.

Modifié par EvanKester, 30 juin 2012 - 05:51 .

[Hypertion]

EvanKester wrote...

Hypertion wrote...
Increase the Charged Shot Muliplier from 2 to 2.5


its the only weapon that feels like its weaker when fired fully charged at times. Everything else has a really noticeable effect when fully charged but the grall seems to lack that.

this change would mean a fully charged shot from the grall would do slightly more damage than a normal shot from the GPS. Since you can Ignore Armor and get headshots with the grall that might make it a better choice for some characters..

Are you taking into account that the GPS's extra projectiles do reduced damage? Without mods, the Graal deals 600 and the GPS deals 642.7. The Graal's charged shots are already out-damaging unchaged GPS shots.

thats DPS numbers you have for the GPS.

the per shot pellet damage on the GPS is 892 at lvl X which due to the unique effect of the second and third pellet result in a stat damage of 1428.32. charging the GPS doubles this damage.

the Gralls stat damage uncharged is 600 and charged is 1200.

this means the grall is doing less damage than a Uncharged GPS

https://docs.google....bWc&output=html

this is the sheet i am going by. the grall for some reason has a DOT and Direct damage effect listed... tho they show it as doing 100% of the weapons damage initally.

Modifié par Hypertion, 30 juin 2012 - 05:57 .

[Grunt_Platform]

Hypertion wrote...
thats DPS numbers you have for the GPS.

the per shot pellet damage on the GPS is 892 at lvl X which due to the unique effect of the second and third pellet result in a stat damage of 1428.32. charging the GPS doubles this damage.

the Gralls stat damage uncharged is 600 and charged is 1200.

It's not. Grabbed the number from GrimyBunyip's sheet. You're right about that 892 base damage, but apparently there's some funky magic going on with its damage. This meshes pretty well with what I've seen too. If the GPS did that much base damage, a geth with hunter mode on could casually one-shot any trooper and centurion class enemies.

They can't, not without tactical cloak.


...Plus, if it did over 1k damage per shot, its DPS would be way higher than 600 something. The GPS has a pretty decent rate of fire, getting off roughly one shot per second, for a simple DPS of (gasp) 1,428.32.

Modifié par EvanKester, 30 juin 2012 - 06:02 .

[capn233]

EvanKester wrote...

Just covering my bases to be careful 

Back on topic, I am pretty curious about the details of the gun firing mechanics. For one thing, accuracy loss and recoil are both huge factors for assault rifles, and all high-ROF weapons, and the game's current balance appears to completely ignore this.

There's pretty much no excuse for the Revenant to do as little damage per bullet as it does when most classes will be hard pressed to hit with even half of them.

I should have put an emoticon in it.

Anyway you are exactly right there.  That is one of the big problems of using pure DPS calcs without accuracy.

AR's should do more paper DPS than pistols, and really the accuracy shouldn't be as cartoony as it is.  Indeed the weight should be what really separates them... that and single shot damage for the "magnums."

SMG's should be along the same lines as AR's, but in general be less accurate such that they only might surpass practical AR DPS at short range, but fall off by mid-long range (with perhaps the exception of the Locust, which should just be a lighter AR).

The Revenant is really somewhat laughable in that it is supposed to be a light machinegun as opposed to an actual assault rifle, which means it should do a good deal more DPS than most of them.  I don't mind if it has a lot of recoil because of it's role though, although the accuracy could be realed in a smidgen.

Modifié par capn233, 30 juin 2012 - 05:59 .

[Metal Vile]

Wait, what? Are you using 892 damage as the charged or uncharged damage for the GPS shots?

Nevermind, that actually is the charged damage, it looks like. Uncharged shots, according to Tangster's sheet, deal only 45% of the "regular" damage. It's listed as "Instant Fire Damage".

[Hypertion]

2nd and 3rd Pelled deal 30% of the origonal pellets shot.

combined with the one full pellet the result is..

892.7+267.81+267.82=1428.32 total damage from all 3 pellets combined.

the Grall does 80-100 per pellet so
100*6=600
Charged for another *2 = 1200

this shows that the GPS uncharged is dealing more damage than a charged shot from the grall.

[Hypertion]

Metal Vile wrote...

Wait, what? Are you using 892 damage as the charged or uncharged damage for the GPS shots?

Nevermind, that actually is the charged damage, it looks like. Uncharged shots, according to Tangster's sheet, deal only 45% of the "regular" damage. It's listed as "Instant Fire Damage".

this makes more sense.

that would be 642.774 on uncharged GPS shots then.

thats still higher than the Grall can manage. but it make some sense now.

i think the problem is that the GPSs Homing ability makes it nearly always deal that damage while the grall often cant do that. still think it could use a minor buff as the grall is lacking compaired to the GPS or the Claymore.

the GPS does more shots and is more accurate due to its homing while still doing more damage and having the same charged shot ability.

i think the Grall should have slightly better damage ability over the GPS. i do mean slightly better.

maybe a 10% buff overall?

Modifié par Hypertion, 30 juin 2012 - 06:06 .

[Grunt_Platform]

The Graal is crazy accurate! Its grouping is tight enough that if you're hitting with one blade you're probably hitting with all six, especially with Smart Choke. It's been a few weeks since I last played with them both, but the Graal is doing pretty damn well. It requires more skill to use right than the GPS does, but the ability to score headshots from across the map more than compensates.

EDIT: I wouldn't necessarily oppose a damage buff, just to make it a little more appealing but.. you can't ignore the Graal's advantages. It's a good gun already.

Modifié par EvanKester, 30 juin 2012 - 06:13 .

[Rip504]

Remove auto-aim,IMO it is the most broken item in the game.

[Grunt_Platform]

capn233 wrote...
I should have put an emoticon in it.

Anyway you are exactly right there.  That is one of the big problems of using pure DPS calcs without accuracy.

AR's should do more paper DPS than pistols, and really the accuracy shouldn't be as cartoony as it is.  Indeed the weight should be what really separates them... that and single shot damage for the "magnums."

SMG's should be along the same lines as AR's, but in general be less accurate such that they only might surpass practical AR DPS at short range, but fall off by mid-long range (with perhaps the exception of the Locust, which should just be a lighter AR).

The Revenant is really somewhat laughable in that it is supposed to be a light machinegun as opposed to an actual assault rifle, which means it should do a good deal more DPS than most of them.  I don't mind if it has a lot of recoil because of it's role though, although the accuracy could be realed in a smidgen.

It's all good :happy:

Anyway, yeah. It feels like every assault rifle was balanced against pistols assuming no mods for the pistols, and a stability damper for the ARs. Of course, in practice a stability damper means you're not using an extended barrel or AP Mod, which cuts pretty heavily into DPS.

EDIT: Actually, looking at the more thorough data from Coalesced, the aim error system seems straight forward enough. Converting that into actual accuracy percentages seems awkward but.. not too bad.

Modifié par EvanKester, 30 juin 2012 - 06:41 .

[capn233]

EvanKester wrote...
It's all good :happy:

Anyway, yeah. It feels like every assault rifle was balanced against pistols assuming no mods for the pistols, and a stability damper for the ARs. Of course, in practice a stability damper means you're not using an extended barrel or AP Mod, which cuts pretty heavily into DPS.

EDIT: Actually, looking at the more thorough data from Coalesced, the aim error system seems straight forward enough. Converting that into actual accuracy percentages seems awkward but.. not too bad.

Sidebar - I don't think Graal needs anything.  It is one of those weapons that if you learn to use it you will be rewarded greatly.  The accuracy is good enough that you can nearly get headshots (with the bonus, unlike GPS) at fairly long range without even bothering with the smart choke.  It also ignores armor DR just like the GPS.  And it basically always staggers a Phantom.  I don't really know what you would do to Graal to make it more appealing that won't "unbalance it."

Back to ARs, I don't use stability on any of the AR's... just fight the muzzle climb with the mouse (probably easier to do this on PC than Xbox, I don't know).  I usually run my Revenant with AR Piercing and AR Scope, which is a combo many people will say is crazy, but I think the improvement in accuracy is actually noticeable.  And if I happen to run it on something like GI with an accuracy bonus to stack, it is actually a whole lot better.  Still has muzzle climb, but the stability consumables can help you there if you wish.

I haven't tried to mod the values myself to play around with them, but if you are talking about something like the Revi specifically, I think it should have a moderate bloom with faster reset to encourage burst fire (not sure how to implement that) while the muzzle climb should stay relatively the same.  Paper DPS wise the Revenant might be more at home adjusted way up near Harrier level (+20% damage per shot, same ROF), although it should be the heavier weapon (instead of them having identical weight at X, 1.8-1.4).

For this to work reasonably well you would need to narrow the Harrier's weight range as in the OP.

Modifié par capn233, 30 juin 2012 - 08:49 .

[Atheosis]

Every full auto other than the Harrier could use a 20% damage buff honestly.

[capn233]

Atheosis wrote...

Every full auto other than the Harrier could use a 20% damage buff honestly.

Well that is pretty much true.

edit: actually some of the rifles are so weak they might even stand more than that.  Depending on how "useful" you want to make them.  Or if you feel like an AR should be able to hang DPS wise with a Predator or Phalanx.

Modifié par capn233, 30 juin 2012 - 08:53 .

[Hypertion]

My opinion is that ARs are intended as Heavy Pure DPS weapons compaired to the Heavly Single shot Shotguns and Sniper Rifles.

so agreed that all ARs need a 10-20% damage buff bar a few notable exceptions.

the Vindicator could defnitly use something in particular. its ability is compaired directly to the Mattock which has nearly double the DPS potential on paper.

maybe my ideas for the Incisor would do better on the Vindicator. Raise Damage as well as increasing ROF. the Vindicator already has a Refire limit.

as it was the Vindicator was Balanced DOWN a while back before i even started playing. it has been untouced since then in the balance changes..


maybe Decreasing the Refire Delay would be the best bet for improving it...

if assult rifles were improved so the Avenger had a lvl X DPS of 500 or so, i think that assult rifles would start to shine as what they were intended as. pure DPS weapons.

[datako12]

Hypertion wrote...

Metal Vile wrote...

Wait, what? Are you using 892 damage as the charged or uncharged damage for the GPS shots?

Nevermind, that actually is the charged damage, it looks like. Uncharged shots, according to Tangster's sheet, deal only 45% of the "regular" damage. It's listed as "Instant Fire Damage".

this makes more sense.

that would be 642.774 on uncharged GPS shots then.

thats still higher than the Grall can manage. but it make some sense now.

i think the problem is that the GPSs Homing ability makes it nearly always deal that damage while the grall often cant do that. still think it could use a minor buff as the grall is lacking compaired to the GPS or the Claymore.

the GPS does more shots and is more accurate due to its homing while still doing more damage and having the same charged shot ability.

i think the Grall should have slightly better damage ability over the GPS. i do mean slightly better.

maybe a 10% buff overall?

it already does, if you get headshots. this fact and the whole charged damage thing with the GPS were both mentioned in my post on page 24 of this thread. but i'll throw some numbers at you again to prove my point.

graal charged damage = 1200, headshot bonus = 2.5, maximum headshot damage from a graal = 3000, difficulty of getting all 6 spikes, not very, can be done from much farther away than a claymore can do it, and a GPS cant score headshots at all, so a graal in the hands of someone capable of using it well will out damage any other shotgun against enemies that can be headshot.  against bosses a GPS or a claymore would be slightly better, but thats one of those tradeoffs that you have to decide on

and of course my calculations are completely ignoring the fact that you can add 25% damage with the high caliber barrel, at least 20% from your classes passives, 20% to the headshot bonus from your passives, a shotgun amp, a headshot VI, an ammo power, and another shotgun amp. now i havent done the math, but im fairly certain that the graal can kill anything that can be headshot with one well aimed, charged shot

[Manuel La Bor]

datako12 wrote...

Hypertion wrote...

Metal Vile wrote...

Wait, what? Are you using 892 damage as the charged or uncharged damage for the GPS shots?

Nevermind, that actually is the charged damage, it looks like. Uncharged shots, according to Tangster's sheet, deal only 45% of the "regular" damage. It's listed as "Instant Fire Damage".

this makes more sense.

that would be 642.774 on uncharged GPS shots then.

thats still higher than the Grall can manage. but it make some sense now.

i think the problem is that the GPSs Homing ability makes it nearly always deal that damage while the grall often cant do that. still think it could use a minor buff as the grall is lacking compaired to the GPS or the Claymore.

the GPS does more shots and is more accurate due to its homing while still doing more damage and having the same charged shot ability.

i think the Grall should have slightly better damage ability over the GPS. i do mean slightly better.

maybe a 10% buff overall?

it already does, if you get headshots. this fact and the whole charged damage thing with the GPS were both mentioned in my post on page 24 of this thread. but i'll throw some numbers at you again to prove my point.

graal charged damage = 1200, headshot bonus = 2.5, maximum headshot damage from a graal = 3000, difficulty of getting all 6 spikes, not very, can be done from much farther away than a claymore can do it, and a GPS cant score headshots at all, so a graal in the hands of someone capable of using it well will out damage any other shotgun against enemies that can be headshot.  against bosses a GPS or a claymore would be slightly better, but thats one of those tradeoffs that you have to decide on

and of course my calculations are completely ignoring the fact that you can add 25% damage with the high caliber barrel, at least 20% from your classes passives, 20% to the headshot bonus from your passives, a shotgun amp, a headshot VI, an ammo power, and another shotgun amp. now i havent done the math, but im fairly certain that the graal can kill anything that can be headshot with one well aimed, charged shot

It takes the passives from a turian (weapondamage/headshots/weapondamage), a HCB, berzerker package V, any ammo lvl 3, and at least rail amp 1, plus the multiplicitive headshot bonus from marksman to get 1 shot headshots on every non boss with graal X. Serious damage stacking but can be done. 

[Hypertion]

then my problem is purely lag problems..

it seems to do nothing in compairison of the GPS or the Claymore, the Grall often misses in situations that i can get headshots on the Claymore, Purely due to projectile Travel..

Changing it from Projectile to Hitscan might be the best option then, but thats not really balance then..

i have always known that stat wise the Grall appears to be a good gun, but it never seems to preform like it should in multiplayer... sad considering how much i love the gun in singleplayer. i always take it over the GPS and Claymore in Singleplayer....


i dont usually host when i take the chance with the Grall..... oh well..

imo i dont know why they didnt make all the guns Hitscan in multiplayer, just to help deal with lag issues...


we dont live in a magic world with perfect internet connections, thats for hellava sure..

[datako12]

Hypertion wrote...


imo i dont know why they didnt make all the guns Hitscan in multiplayer, just to help deal with lag issues...


we dont live in a magic world with perfect internet connections, thats for hellava sure..

QFT